What should i play ?

[existential]

Hello everyone !! I will be playing in a campaign with 4 other people (Dm + 4 characters). The problem is, we ALL want to play major spellcasters so party balance is really going to be an issue :P . The DM has allowed us to use anything 3.5 has to offer. All i know is that we're gonna have a Spirit Shaman and a Wizard for sure. The other party member may choose wizard, too. I would like to play a divine spellcaster but I'm not a fan of clerics. Favored soul seems nice but I don't like their lack of versatility and Archivist is out of the question due to prayerbook and heavy preparation. I liked the Healer from miniatures handbook but it has a really poor spell list and all the best prestige classes for divine magic are suited for clerics. What troubles me is that the DM said that we're gonna face lots of riddles so I think i need utility. What do you think ? :smallfrown:

[Tiri]

What is it about clerics that you don't like?

[LordOfCain]

Does it have to be a spell caster? Why not a manifester? A psion can be great.

[Long_shanks]

Well, those criteria pretty much leave only the druid on the table, which is a great option. Or, if you don't mind being evil, you could do something around the Ur-priest: all the cleric casting, faster, without the hassle of having a god or a cause other that yourself.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How about a Spontaneous (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) Cloistered Cleric, taking the Trickery and Kobold (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) domains? Comparable spells known, taking Domains into account, but you have full access to Turn Undead and (possibly) the ability to expand your spell list via domain-adding PrCs*. And on top of it all you can pretend to be a Rogue.



*The ACF is somewhat unclear; it refers to "his two domains," but says nothing about what happens if you get more, such as via Cloistered Cleric in the same book. Most of said PrCs are also somewhat unclear on the subject of spontaneous casters; ask your DM.

[Thaneus]

I'd second the idea with psionics, those guys might not be able to surpass the wizard or clerics but come close.

But you might just kick it a notch up an play a Lawful Evil ardent 10 - Ur-Priest 2 - Psychic Theurge with Dominant Ideal ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) for the level 10 Mantle.
Together with Practiced Manifester you have Psionic 9; Divine 9; Turn Undead and a good selection an powers

[Hamste]

You could double down, go druid 3/arcane class 1/ early entry mystic theurge 4/arcane heirophant 10/ mystic theurge 2 for double 9s (if you don't want double nines two more levels of druid gets you wild shape as a 15th level druid. Don't get much more utility than mystic theurge.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If everyone plays a caster you may be best off with a hybrid build like an Unseen Seer or a gish like a Swiftblade, Jade Phoenix Mage or Ruby Knight Vindicator.
Covering the skillmonkey role in particular may prove useful and save everyone some spell slots. And initiator-gishes make for pretty strong frontliners while still getting near-full spellcasting.

Everyone playing a caster generally isn't bad for party balance. Probably more the opposite.
But it may be a good idea to make sure that not the entire party is useless in an AMF or Dead Magic Zone, or even just that someone can do things when spell slots run out but there's no time to rest yet.

[existential]

Tiri -- I dont really like the whole "clumsy, heavy armored man with prepared spells"

Long_shanks -- I generally tend to avoid druids as they're completely out of balance by being able to cover every role - simultaneously - and team mates dont like that :P

thaneus -- It is not a psionics-magic transparecy world so Psion is not really viable.

sleepyphoenixx -- Gishes are not my thing

Grod the giant -- Now that's a suggestion !!! Spontaneous casting variant does not delay spell access, too and domain spells are automatically added to your spells known. Cloistered cleric offers more skills + knowledge domain and since all 3.5 is allowed I can abuse Sovereign Speaker for at least + 8 domains :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Thaneus]

thaneus -- It is not a psionics-magic transparecy world so Psion is not really viable.
You know that this makes the player psionic better?
Spellresistence -> out of the window you dont need to care about this
When a Powerresistent Mob comes around it will be nuked by your mates because of the same.
Because of Ur-Priest you even have dispel magic on your spells deposit later on.
Your buffs can not be dispelled!

Players tend to benefit more from this then the GM when you work with it.

[eggynack]

Long_shanks -- I generally tend to avoid druids as they're completely out of balance by being able to cover every role - simultaneously - and team mates dont like that :P
Much less significant issue when the party is entirely composed of incredibly powerful full casters.

[Troacctid]

Grod the giant -- Now that's a suggestion !!! Spontaneous casting variant does not delay spell access, too and domain spells are automatically added to your spells known. Cloistered cleric offers more skills + knowledge domain and since all 3.5 is allowed I can abuse Sovereign Speaker for at least + 8 domains :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
If you want spontaneous casting and lots of domains, you could consider the Evangelist variant from Dragon Magazine. Your idea here is probably better though TBH.


You know that this makes the player psionic better?
Spellresistence -> out of the window you dont need to care about this
When a Powerresistent Mob comes around it will be nuked by your mates because of the same.
Because of Ur-Priest you even have dispel magic on your spells deposit later on.
Your buffs can not be dispelled!

Players tend to benefit more from this then the GM when you work with it.
Most campaigns use transparency, so none of this would apply.

[Hamste]

If you want spontaneous casting and lots of domains, you could consider the Evangelist variant from Dragon Magazine. Your idea here is probably better though TBH.


Most campaigns use transparency, so none of this would apply.

The op quote they were responding to specifically says there was not transparency

[Long_shanks]

existential -- I generally tend to avoid druids as they're completely out of balance by being able to cover every role - simultaneously - and team mates dont like that :P

(This is my 10th post, I'll finally be able to quote stuff...)

The advantage of said powerful class is that you don't have to use all of its powerful options. The only druid I have ever played was one with the UA variant that loses wild shape for a slew of monk-like abilities. There is a leeway with high tier classes that you don't necessarily have with a lower tier class, where you need every powerful options to stay pretty level with, like in your group, a spirit shaman and a wizard. So, to my point, it's not because you CAN fill every party role that you should do it. Also, like eggynack said, this is not really going to be an issue with your powerful group. The wizard's summons will do the same job as your animal companion, and they will be happy if you ild shape and go into melee; that would mean less chances for them to ever draw aggro :smallwink:

[DMVerdandi]

Tiri -- I dont really like the whole "clumsy, heavy armored man with prepared spells"
Ehhhh??? Why do you think that they are clumsy?

Clerics are like...Amazing. If there is anything I would compare them to in pop media, it would be like, monks really. Honestly, Refluff a cleric, throw on a monk's belt, and you have yourself quite the warrior monk. Not to say that you have to play as a monk. They also kind of do the whole cult initiate thing pretty well.

As far as Prepared spells go, generally they are better. Initially, it will be expensive, but you can really just make wands, and later eternal wands of whatever spells you need to "cast again", outside of that, persist things, and keep it moving.


If you REALLY want something good, I would say spell point cleric.
You still prepare, but you prepare slots, and spend points on the spells in the slots. 5e does this with most of their casters, and pathfinder does it with the arcanist, but they still have slots rather than points.
It's the best mechanic.





Long_shanks -- I generally tend to avoid druids as they're completely out of balance by being able to cover every role - simultaneously - and team mates dont like that :P
Pick a role, stick to it. Excel and specialize in it. Problem solved. Bored? Switch role, but not before a session ends. Flexibility is good for the fact that when you change your mind, you can still function.




thaneus -- It is not a psionics-magic transparecy world so Psion is not really viable.
hmm...

sleepyphoenixx -- Gishes are not my thing
Gish Builds, or the idea that magic doesn't make you into a scrawny sperglord?
Because, Gish Builds can be very convoluted and messy, but the idea that no matter what, spell casters can't find their way around a push-up, strikes me as hard to understand. I understand the logic behind the choice, but it's not really...Believable.