Moana: This thread is so SHINY!

[Drake-Pegasus]

Just got back from a midday showing, and I noticed there was no thread, which was a shame. This movie blows Frozen so far out of the water it's not funny.

[Starwulf]

Just got back from a midday showing, and I noticed there was no thread, which was a shame. This movie blows Frozen so far out of the water it's not funny.

Odd, I just watched it last night with my daughters, and I had the exact opposite, on the way home I told my wife "It was decent, but it was no Frozen". So many places that it could have been improved on for me, such as fleshing out the monster realm a bit more. I mean seriously, you venture into a realm full of them, and all you see are a few background creatures, and a giant crab...bleh. The whole ocean voyage felt very, very lackluster to me, they do exactly 3 things on the entire way there: Encounter the coconut pirates, find the monster realm, save the world. That's it. I get that it's made for kids and that it has to keep a faster pace to keep their interest, but I feel they moved way to fast, not building up enough of anything to really make an emotional impact.

[Legato Endless]

It's well enough executed and it's nice seeing some Polynesian representation. In a film year as hit and mostly miss as 2016 has been, that counts for a lot. It's enjoyable.

I wish it were more ambitious, as this is fairly paint by numbers for Disney with the storytelling; even the villain twist is a riff on Disney's current love affair with surprise villain identities.


Odd, I just watched it last night with my daughters, and I had the exact opposite, on the way home I told my wife "It was decent, but it was no Frozen".

Moviebob opens with roughly that line as well. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8OkMnKHTA)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

this is fairly paint by numbers for Disney with the storytelling

Is it? What was the last Disney princess story with not even a hint of a love interest? Even Brave had the three teens competing for her hand, even if none of the actual participants wanted to be there. It is enormously refreshing to get an adventure story without cramming a romantic comedy in the middle of it (Avengers 2 could learn a thing or two about that, FWIW).

Yes, it feels weird praising a film for what it does not have, but there are a lot of things this film does not have that are usually present to the detriment of a film. The romantic comedy bit, for one. The overrepresentation of certain segments of the population. The self-congratulation at not doing the above. Like Moviebob said, it's quite a big deal how not a big deal it is to the village to have a female heir, but it is an even bigger deal that the film does not bend over backwards to pat itself on the back over it. Disney princess movies have now so successfully established that women can in fact carry their own films, that it is not even noteworthy anymore. And that is a very good thing.

Grey Wolf

[Starwulf]

It's well enough executed and it's nice seeing some Polynesian representation. In a film year as hit and mostly miss as 2016 has been, that counts for a lot. It's enjoyable.

I wish it were more ambitious, as this is fairly paint by numbers for Disney with the storytelling; even the villain twist is a riff on Disney's current love affair with surprise villain identities.



Moviebob opens with roughly that line as well. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8OkMnKHTA)

^^ Great minds think alike I guess. I can at least say I didn't steal it from whoever that is, I don't watch youtube reviews for anything. My youtubing is limited to looking up random music videos, and Epic Rap Battles of History ^^. Or really, really weird/terrifying things that my best friend sends me, that leave me traumatized for weeks on end...*shudders*

I loved the Chicken though, he was the best part as far as I'm concerned. It got me to laugh at it over and over again, and despite the speech given to the elder at the start of the movie, it really doesn't show it's purpose during the movie. Like, I kept expecting an epic save or something from it, and the closest it came was pecking the jewel away from the water at the end, which honestly seemed rather minor.

[Kislath]

I loved it!

"Whatever, Princess"

I'm not a princess. I'm a Chief's daughter.

Same difference.

No it's not!

"Look, you're in a dress and have a cute animal sidekick. You're a princess!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! A direct stab at the movie formula. Touche!

[Ronnoc]

I'm going to chime in with another better than frozen comment. The music wasn't as singable but Moana herself is the best "princess" they've given us since Mulan.

[SuperPanda]

I got to see it a few days ago. If I had it on DvD I'd include it in one of my classes. (I teach Literature at a US ciriculumn international program in China so our grade 11 class is doing a US grade 10 World Literature focused course with units specifically for Myths, Epics, and Legends and another for the Heroe's Journey. This film hits all those buttons and does it well).

Creation Myths: The introduction and "You're welcome" song are prefect for looking at creation myths from a literary perspective. The creation of the sky and long days show the importance of physical strength, the emphasis on coconuts echoes back to their importance as a food and water source for the villages.

Transgression Myths: Maui's motivations in the opening make for a great discussion on why he's still a mythic hero despite causing all the problems and not really wanting to fix them. His whole character arc is excellent and wraps back to his origin story which reveals yet another transgression myth which then reinforces why he's a hero and some of Moana's core characteristics.

Quest Myth: The whole story is one big quest to right a wrong that's been done and save "home/family" - Its a solid moral and illustrates those elements well.

Epics: Epics are long narrative poems telling the tales of heroes fighting against evils. Moana fits that very well. The songs and stunning visuals are very poetic, as are the supernatural moments with the ancestors and grandma. Moana is also a text book epic hero: High social birth, strong sense of family honor, Touched by the gods, strong ethical character. Her Act I conflict of being torn between her duty and her destiny is very compelling from a literary perspective.

I understand but disagree with the people who say we've seen this "I feel a need to go / You must not go" dynamic before. Pocahontas, Simba, Elsa, Mulan, Judy Hopps, and many many other disney heroes face the similar things. Sometimes the parents are right in their concerns: Mufasa tells Simba not to go to the graveyard because its dangerous - going to the graveyard does not help in any way. Other times the hero is told not to go by a villain: This happens in Tangled. Sometimes The parents are wrong because of the "magic of love" Little Mermaid, Pocahontas, and others like this come to mind. In Moana and Frozen the parents are overreacting to a danger.

The thing that makes it different for me in Moana is two parts. First, the dad's motivations make perfect sense when you factor in the backstory presented. That is a legitimate fear for a parent to have and it comes not from "I don't understand you" but "I understand you very well." Second, the social structures presented mean that Moana has to forsake her people and her family to follow her heart - which is a big taboo. She is only able to see how far she'll go when she realizes that her people need her to go, that her Duty and Destiny aren't in conflict - its just that other's don't see that. In this way the closest disney partner she has in Mulan, only there she isn't reacting against reasonable fears, she's reacting too reasonable fears.

I gave and amused eye roll to Maui breaking the fourth wall with the "Disney Princess" discussion and calling her chosen one. There is some postmodernism I can get into with students if/when I get a chance.


There were really only 3 external angtagonists (the real antagonists in this film were emotional) - and 2 of those 3 were still emotionally in suitably mythic ways.

The coconut monsters: They were cute little marketing tools. You could make an argument for them standing in for greed.

The Shiny crab (I forgot his name). His song number and talking about himself bit reveal that he is a personification of vanity. His refuting of inner strength goes back to the greater theme of the story - as such he is thematically an amazing villain who got too little time. One of the things that made him such a good avatar of vanity is that he actually was stronger that Moana and Maui despite their "inner strength" but he was also easily fooled. It creates a nice parable for vanity weakening the mind.

Taka the fire demon. When I first saw the marketing for this I was set to be angry about the fire demon villain because I know that in Maori and Hawaiian cultures the volcanos are seen as sources of life rather than death with Pelli, the Hawaiian volcano goddess, having created land to guard humanity from the harsh sea and its creatures. Needless to say I was very happy with the resolution. Taka takes on rage embodied.

Maui and Moana also fight against doubt finding solace and strength in a sense of belonging and family.

The reason I thought these were perfect is that in ancient Hawaiian culture the various gods/demons/spirits were totems which stood for and explained taboos that governed life on the islands. The crab having a mural in the story telling hut at the begging suggests, without outright stating, that its story is used to caution against the dangers of vanity and how they make you susceptible to trickery. Taka the wrathful force of destruction is presented early on as simply and avatar of anger, but we learn later that she is more vengeful than angry - and a caution against vengeance would be just as, if not more, useful.


Its implied that grandma was the priest of the village and that their isolationist chief had been doing away with older stories and traditions. This helps explain why Moana doesn't know how to sail, but also why she doesn't know Maui's myths or the monsters by name. From a story telling perspective this helps the viewer's immersion but it also made the movie better themed. The quest myth was all about returning something that had been lost/taken/stolen and the resolution of the film is about reclaiming a lost heritage. If Moana had known her people's stories and legends better then the journey of reclaiming her heritage would have been weakened.

The more obvious theme was about "knowing who you are" and being strong and confident in that vision of yourself in adversity. This directly connects with reclaiming a lost heritage while also having a nice 2016 self-empowerment element. Maui, Moana, Grandma, and even the climatic battle rely on this sense of self. Only Shiny Crab runs counter to this theme as the antagonist most successful in challenging that idea - but his strength in challenging their sense of self comes from his own sense of self. He is an avatar of vanity and he's completely cool with that.

I too liked that the chicken did help a little bit, but really never paid off on the "even the smallest of us have their purpose" bit. I liked it more because it showed how the chiefs, Moana and her dad, were just doing the best they could and guessing most of the time. The story was about having confidence in yourself and your ability and doing what you thought best - Moana's dad was doing that exact thing as chief. His guesses were wrong but he was not. His confidence in Moana as a future chief came from the same place that her strength did - he just had places where he left fear, not confidence, rule him. Again, his weakness and role in the film tied very neatly into the greater themes.

Was it "revolutionary?" Yes in one small but very important way - and the exact way I was hoping for. As Movie Bob mentioned as well this story presented the polynesian cultures and the wayfarers specifically with dignity, majesty and grace where no other film I can think of has done that. I was very hopeful that this would be the case as I've been facinated with those stories for a long time and wanted to see something that felt like a Avatar: The Last Airbender (A loving tribute to an amazing people, mythology, and culture). I got exactly that.

Was it more generic than Frozen? Yes, but it was also far more human. Elsa has a very human arc in Frozen and so did Anna, but the other characters felt more tacked on. All the characters in Moana felt very human in their motivations, even the crab and the lava beast (Okay the coconuts didn't but that was a Mad Max homage anyway).

It was a paint-by-numbers disney monomyth executing a "best of" disney formula while also hitting every point of the heroes journey well. It was tightly themed with very little that wouldn't stand up to reasoning.

While Frozen felt like the writing of Melville (Absolute genius in places and tedious in others) and Zootopia felt like Mark Twain (Beautiful, funny, Not nearly as subtle as it thinks its being but enough to possibly muddy the conversation), Moana felt like Robert Frost (It looks simple, it feels simple, it sounds simple, but everything is so tightly crafted and lovingly put together that one closer examination you realize its an utter masterpiece).

If you want a film to "wow" you on the first watch, Frozen. If you want a film to reliably "wow" you whether or not you analyze it and to have hidden depths worth plumbing even if they get confusing, Zootopia. If you want a film that feels simple and plain but on deeper analysis turns into a work of art, Moana.

[Razade]

I never saw Frozen but I've heard all it's music and frankly Moana blows those songs out of the water. Let it Go is an alright song but Where You Are and How Far I'll Go are way more uplifting and heartfelt than anything that came out of Frozen.

I'm also sorely disappointed that I'm the first person to mention it but Shiny (Tamatoa's song) was classic Disney giving the Villain the chance to really belt it out. It doesn't hurt at all that Shiny is not only a direct counter-point to all the other songs up to that point (save maybe You're Welcome) but it channels the late great David Bowie so hard it was practically oozing out of the scene. It was even better that it had the fine hint of the long missed Tim Curry flair. You're Welcome was also great but really, Where you Are is going to be the standout song from this.

It probably also helps that Lin Manual Miranda of Hamilton fame wrote all the music in Moana. Which would explain why it was so amazing.

[Kislath]

Wait, so "Shiny" wasn't sung by Bowie?

heh. I guess I didn't really think it was, but if you told it that it was, I would have believed it. It really sounded like him. I thought so while watching it in the theater, and was going to IMDB it to check.

[Razade]

Wait, so "Shiny" wasn't sung by Bowie?

heh. I guess I didn't really think it was, but if you told it that it was, I would have believed it. It really sounded like him. I thought so while watching it in the theater, and was going to IMDB it to check.

Would be really really hard considering Bowie's dead. :smalltongue: And was dead when casting was being undertaken. It does seriously borrow from his style and voice. The singer is actually Flight of the Concords member Jemaine Clement



Its implied that grandma was the priest of the village and that their isolationist chief had been doing away with older stories and traditions. This helps explain why Moana doesn't know how to sail, but also why she doesn't know Maui's myths or the monsters by name. From a story telling perspective this helps the viewer's immersion but it also made the movie better themed. The quest myth was all about returning something that had been lost/taken/stolen and the resolution of the film is about reclaiming a lost heritage. If Moana had known her people's stories and legends better then the journey of reclaiming her heritage would have been weakened.


This isn't...the case...at all. Not only do they not even hint at the Grandma being the Priestess (She says what her job is in the village. She's the crazy lady) they open the movie with Tala (The Grandmother) telling one of Maui's exploits. The entire inside of the hut the story is being told in has tons and tons of monsters (one of them Tamatoa) on straw mats. She very clearly knows the stories and traditions other than their seafaring ways and that's mostly because she's just a kid. The rest of the Village and the Elders seem to know of their seafaring ways. Moana is the first person to talk about Lalotai which means she at least knows it from stories. She doesn't recognize the Kakamora but that could be for any reason. The song You're Welcome isn't Maui telling her his feats, he's asking her in a rhetorical style.

[SuperPanda]

This isn't...the case...at all. Not only do they not even hint at the Grandma being the Priestess (She says what her job is in the village. She's the crazy lady) they open the movie with Tala (The Grandmother) telling one of Maui's exploits. The entire inside of the hut the story is being told in has tons and tons of monsters (one of them Tamatoa) on straw mats. She very clearly knows the stories and traditions other than their seafaring ways and that's mostly because she's just a kid. The rest of the Village and the Elders seem to know of their seafaring ways. Moana is the first person to talk about Lalotai which means she at least knows it from stories. She doesn't recognize the Kakamora but that could be for any reason. The song You're Welcome isn't Maui telling her his feats, he's asking her in a rhetorical style.

1) While its not clearly stated that Tala is a priest, the stories she's telling are myths which are religious in nature and she's the only one we see passing down said stories (there is a meaningful exchange of looks about her telling the kids the stories and the talk of monsters). The hut being adorned with the monsters including Tamatoa is one of the reasons I jumped to that conclusion. Ancient Hawaiian culture used the various monsters/demon/god iconography as representations of cultural taboos (which is why I think Tamatoa fits well as an avatar of vanity). Grandma also is the only character who takes the stories seriously besides Moana and is the spirital anchor of the story. She might not officially be the priestess (or the chief might have abandoned the old religion as he did the wayfarer traditions) but she certainly plays that role in the film.

I think I didn't say what I was trying to say clearly enough.

2) You have a point in that Moana certainly knew more of the stories and traditions than I gave her credit for. I concede I was being too harsh there.

3) I think "Your Welcome" was somewhere in the middle actually. She seems to have forgotten a lot of his early exploits seeing as his transgression caused the problem they are all facing, but she must know the stories he's reminding her of to get so mezmerized. She goes from completely incredulous that he's a "Hero of men" to hypnotized too quickly for my original point. I think you're right here again.

[kladams707]

I largely liked Moana, formulaic though it is.

We've never seen a Disney Princess accept her role as future leader to the extent Moana does. Even Elsa isn't really shown performing any real.queenly duties and Anna hands over the reigns to the first guy she meets. Moan's conflict comes from having a dream but knowing she has a responsibility to her people, only to have her dream realized when meshes with her responsibility.

And she's the most realistically designed princess to date.

[Razade]

1) While its not clearly stated that Tala is a priest, the stories she's telling are myths which are religious in nature and she's the only one we see passing down said stories (there is a meaningful exchange of looks about her telling the kids the stories and the talk of monsters). The hut being adorned with the monsters including Tamatoa is one of the reasons I jumped to that conclusion. Ancient Hawaiian culture used the various monsters/demon/god iconography as representations of cultural taboos (which is why I think Tamatoa fits well as an avatar of vanity). Grandma also is the only character who takes the stories seriously besides Moana and is the spirital anchor of the story. She might not officially be the priestess (or the chief might have abandoned the old religion as he did the wayfarer traditions) but she certainly plays that role in the film.

Polynesian cultures also have the Chief as the central spiritual leader typically, you don't get it both ways :smalltongue: The spiritual leader is also respected. She very specifically says "The village may think I'm crazy. That I drift too far". They don't really respect her, they think she's a loon. She certainly is the spiritual anchor of the story but that doesn't mean she's a Priestess.



3) I think "Your Welcome" was somewhere in the middle actually. She seems to have forgotten a lot of his early exploits seeing as his transgression caused the problem they are all facing, but she must know the stories he's reminding her of to get so mezmerized. She goes from completely incredulous that he's a "Hero of men" to hypnotized too quickly for my original point. I think you're right here again.

She really doesn't. The whole song relies on her being familiar with the stories. The song isn't "Hey I've done all these cool things be amazed!" It's "Who did these things, oh me? Right. YOU'RE WELCOME". She's not incredulous that he's The Hero of Men. She's incredulous at his arrogance considering he doomed the world. She very explicitly calls him out on it. Several times actually. She flat out says that it's his fault that her village is dying and it's his job to fix it. :smalltongue:

All of this is a very classic case of "Sometimes a cigar is a cigar" and over analyzing things.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I largely liked Moana, formulaic though it is.

We've never seen a Disney Princess accept her role as future leader to the extent Moana does. Even Elsa isn't really shown performing any real.queenly duties and Anna hands over the reigns to the first guy she meets. Moan's conflict comes from having a dream but knowing she has a responsibility to her people, only to have her dream realized when meshes with her responsibility.

And she's the most realistically designed princess to date.

I know that's a typo, but the idea of someone handing over the reins to give up their reign seems like a powerful visual in the right circumstances. Maybe a Cossack-type society.

[Traab]

I know that's a typo, but the idea of someone handing over the reins to give up their reign seems like a powerful visual in the right circumstances. Maybe a Cossack-type society.

Either that or a transfer of ownership at the bdsm club she owned.

"Here are the reins, the horsewhip, the spurs, this is your club to run now."

[SuperPanda]

All of this is a very classic case of "Sometimes a cigar is a cigar" and over analyzing things.

I think that's what I'm guilty of.

I went in to see the film with rather high hopes and very low expectations. Disney has a bad track record of getting other cultures terribly wrong or villifying "the other" and there was already a certain amount of buzz around the film because of the Halloween costume and such. I was hoping for a beautiful love letter to cultures I've been facinated by but I was expecting Hercules and Pocahontas. When I came out of the film feeling like it had lived up to all my hopes I got a little carried away.

Thanks for helping set me straight on those. I really loved the film so I should focus on what it is rather than try to build it up beyond what it was.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was actually surprised by the fact that Maui is a Trickster Fire Thief. I was actually jarred by that, seemingly too close to the Prometheus story (with a bit of Atlas thrown in for good measure), that I was 50% convinced it had been added (maybe to make him more "understandable" to people unfamiliar with his actual achievements?). But no, a quick google check after the film confirmed this is in fact one of the things he did for humanity.

The parallels seem too close to be mere coincidence. Anyone knows if there is a common ancestor to the "theft of fire from the Gods" mythos? It feels like it should predate leaving Africa, but that is a heck of a long time to retain the same story in places as far off as Greece and the Polynesia.

Grey Wolf

[AvatarVecna]

Haven't seen Moana yet, wasn't sure if it would turn out average, above-average, or what, and wasn't sure if it would handle the culture well. It sounds like it's really good, though, so I'll go see it.

I would like to preface the rest of this post by saying that I am not a particularly well-read historian, theologist, or anthropologist, I'm just a dabbler with a lot of curiosity. I'm probably mis-reporting something here, please correct me if you see an error, I love building up my knowledge of these kinds of things even though I never do more than dabble.


I was actually surprised by the fact that Maui is a Trickster Fire Thief. I was actually jarred by that, seemingly too close to the Prometheus story (with a bit of Atlas thrown in for good measure), that I was 50% convinced it had been added (maybe to make him more "understandable" to people unfamiliar with his actual achievements?). But no, a quick google check after the film confirmed this is in fact one of the things he did for humanity.

The parallels seem too close to be mere coincidence. Anyone knows if there is a common ancestor to the "theft of fire from the Gods" mythos? It feels like it should predate leaving Africa, but that is a heck of a long time to retain the same story in places as far off as Greece and the Polynesia.

Grey Wolf

While searching for other similar "fire thief" myths, I found this excerpt in the section of Pangu's Wikipedia page discussing creation myths:


When the earth had thus been shaped from the body of P’an-Ku, we are told that three great rivers successively governed the world: first the celestial, then the terrestrial, and finally the human sovereign. They were followed by Yung-Ch’eng and Sui-Jen (i.e., fire-man) the later being the Chinese Prometheus, who brought the fire down from heaven and taught man its various uses.

The Prometheus myth is not indigenous to Greece, where it received the artistically classical form under which it is best known to us. The name, which by an ingenious afterthought is explained as “the fore thinker,” is originally the Sanskrit pramantha and means “twirler” or “fire-stick,” being the rod of hard wood which produced fire by rapid rotation in a piece of soft wood.

We cannot deny that the myth must have been known also in Mesopotamia, the main center of civilization between India and Greece, and it becomes probable that the figure Sui-Jen has been derived from the same prototype as the Greek Prometheus.

A bit more searching found this page on MythEncyclopedia (http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Dr-Fi/Fire.html), which points out examples from Native American, South American, African, and even one specific to the Caroline Islands (tons of small islands north of New Guinea, as opposed to the tons of small islands that make up the Polynesian area forming a vague triangle east of New Guinea between Easter Island, New Zealand, and Hawaii). Firebringer myths apparently exist in a lot of different cultures, and while Prometheus is more well-known because it comes from Greece, it seems there's a ton of firebringers that arose from myths told by people travelling east instead of west (india, china, Polynesia, the Americas, etc). I have yet to check if there's a similar firebringer myth in Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Once again, I may be totally off-base about any or all of this, I just did some quick searches and started reading.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The stealing fire myth (I forget what number it is) is common across most cultures. If you include the gods giving the fire and you have pretty much everyone who uses it. Anthropologists (last I checked) were in agreement that it's probably a reference to lightning-started wildfires.

[Traab]

The garden of eden has its own parallels. They took from the tree of knowledge which god didnt want them to have or however its phrased. Yes in that case they were tricked, but its still a stealing from the gods for knowledge myth.

[khadgar567]

this movie basicly have the oddest of the rocks roles his jokes are lamer than tj parkers gimnic in nxt

[Razade]

this movie basicly have the oddest of the rocks roles his jokes are lamer than tj parkers gimnic in nxt

No one has a clue what you're talking about.

[The Glyphstone]

this movie basicly have the oddest of the rocks roles his jokes are lamer than tj parkers gimnic in nxt

I'm not even sure what this says. Is it English?

[Razade]

I'm not even sure what this says. Is it English?

So he's saying that The Rock's jokes were worse than his jokes in NXT which is a wrestling thing.

[The Glyphstone]

So he's saying that The Rock's jokes were worse than his jokes in NXT which is a wrestling thing.

I see......

[Traab]

Didnt the rock play a tooth fairy at one point? Yes, yes he did. I doubt that moana is somehow worse than that.

[khadgar567]

Didnt the rock play a tooth fairy at one point? Yes, yes he did. I doubt that moana is somehow worse than that.
you gonna shocked how stupid the half of his dialog he needs his animated tattoo to produce punchline and despite tattoo being silent it have more solid puns than his character.

[Ruslan]

It's a good movie. It was a good story, with nice immersion in the Polynesian culture. Auli'i Cravalho nails the role of Moana, and The Rock is being his usual charming* self. Probably not going to be remembered as one of Disney's greatest, but definitely good.


* I am aware of the fact some people do not consider The Rock charming. What can I say, this film will not change their mind. Agree to disagree and all that.

[The Glyphstone]

The Rock does his best movies when he can have fun, and at least from the trailer clip I found (his song), he's having a blast with this character. And he can sing pretty good, who saw that coming?

[Razade]

The Rock is best when he's allowed to be The Rock.

[khadgar567]

The Rock does his best movies when he can have fun, and at least from the trailer clip I found (his song), he's having a blast with this character. And he can sing pretty good, who saw that coming?
Vince McMahon saw it and probably disney executive in attendance need proof check rock vs cena, rap vs guitar solo episode of raw.

[Malistrae]

I prefer movies with strong villains that lead the show. While Moana is not a bad movie, I felt it seriously lacked in the villain department. The arguable main antagonist, Te Ka, had very little screen-time and has no characterization. Tamatoa (the giant crab) would have made a superb main villain (quirky and interesting personality-wise), but he also got far too little screen-time. Of course, this is understandable on some level, since the story of Moana doesn't really mesh well with an active villain. Still, the lack of such a defining villain made me bored of the movie very quickly.

[AvatarVecna]

Seeing this movie for a second time later tonight. Wasn't sure how good it would be, waited for reviews, and they were positive so I saw it and it was awesome. Biggest complaint is a lack of a more traditional primary antagonist, but the movie does a good job with what it has, the characters feel very real, even some of the ones that read almost like walking tropes/cliches, and the animation is wonderful.

[BiblioRook]

Saw it yesterday and loved it, but I didn't find that that surprising as I was on board for this movie from the very beginning.

I feel like I should shout-out to two of my favorite characters because both characters also don't seem to get much recognition for their role in the movie; the Ocean and Tattoo Maui. I mean without the Ocean the movie literally wouldn't even have happened but besides that it's another good example of the sort of 'intelligent normally inanimate thing with a mischievous streak' like the Magic Carpet from Aladdin or the Cape of Levitation from Doctor Strange and I just love stuff like that. Tattoo Maui had a smaller role but still a bigger one then many other characters in the movie (like the pig or the coconut pirates) and without him Maui would have been a great deal less interesting. I guess it could be debated if Tattoo Maui is it's own entity or just an extension of Maui, but I definitely lean towards the former as it seem to notice and react to things that Maui wasn't aware of yet (like Moana fallowing him/them into the realm of monsters).

[Psyren]

Moana is what Brave tried and failed to be.

Frozen wins on the villain front (especially that awesome fakeout), but I feel like Moana wins overall. Moana breaks cliché in so many ways: no shoehorned romance subplot, no dead parent(s), no "true love ex machina", no cutesy and marketable "minions", no damsel, and no hypercompetent female lead (unlike, say, Merida or Fiona from Shrek.) It also has better music - other than "Let It Go," Frozen was pretty weak on the song front, whereas Moana's tracklist is much more robust.

Best of all though - at least for me - is that the movie is all about brown people, and the actors themselves are actual Pacific Islanders, including of course the Rock. I want it to be a huge financial success for that reason alone.


Saw it yesterday and loved it, but I didn't find that that surprising as I was on board for this movie from the very beginning.

I feel like I should shout-out to two of my favorite characters because both characters also don't seem to get much recognition for their role in the movie; the Ocean and Tattoo Maui. I mean without the Ocean the movie literally wouldn't even have happened but besides that it's another good example of the sort of 'intelligent normally inanimate thing with a mischievous streak' like the Magic Carpet from Aladdin or the Cape of Levitation from Doctor Strange and I just love stuff like that. Tattoo Maui had a smaller role but still a bigger one then many other characters in the movie (like the pig or the coconut pirates) and without him Maui would have been a great deal less interesting. I guess it could be debated if Tattoo Maui is it's own entity or just an extension of Maui, but I definitely lean towards the former as it seem to notice and react to things that Maui wasn't aware of yet (like Moana fallowing him/them into the realm of monsters).

Tattoo Maui doubled as Comic Relief and Morality Pet.

[Ruslan]

It also has better music - other than "Let It Go," Frozen was pretty weak on the song front, whereas Moana's tracklist is much more robust.
Before I saw Moana, I could think of very few songs this year that deserve to be Oscar-nominated (probably just Try Everything from Zootopia). Now there are suddenly too many! 5 nominations aren't enough!!

[AvatarVecna]

Moana is what Brave tried and failed to be.

Quite possibly the best quick summary of this film. :smallsmile:


Frozen wins on the villain front (especially that awesome fakeout), but I feel like Moana wins overall. Moana breaks cliché in so many ways: no shoehorned romance subplot, no dead parent(s), no "true love ex machina", no cutesy and marketable "minions", no damsel, and no hypercompetent female lead (unlike, say, Merida or Fiona from Shrek.)

In fairness to Merida and Fiona, their hypercompetence is allowing them to excel at a scale that's reasonable for them. The parts of Moana we see in the movie aren't making her out to be super-competent, but that's compared to Maui, a demigod...and that Moana's often holding her own is impressive in its own right. She figured out the problem with the leaky roof that had apparently been an issue for quite some time, did a decent job of getting to Maui in the first place despite having no sailing experience, took on the boatful of Kakamora without so much as a scratch to show for it, picking up wayfinding well enough to be called a 'master wayfinder' by the end of the film, despite it seeming to be only a few day's worth of travel (admittedly I'm unsure of the time scale, but there's only a couple rests shown throughout the film), surviving the fall into the Realm Of Monsters, and unflinchingly clashing with a titanic lava monster three separate times (and only the last of which she had reason she was safe). She may have been more than a bit out of her depth at certain points (her first attempt sailing out into the sea, facing off against Tamatoa, convincing Maui in the first place), but girl's still a stone-cold badass princess. :smallamused:


It also has better music - other than "Let It Go," Frozen was pretty weak on the song front, whereas Moana's tracklist is much more robust.

Prior to seeing Moana, I would've said that Frozen had a really good soundtrack, and it turns out that Frozen just has a soundtrack full of songs that are a bit too good to skip...but beyond Frozen Heart, For The First Time In Forever, and Let It Go, it doesn't really have any songs I'd play over and over just to listen to. To contrast, every song in Moana is one I could listen to over and over, and even my least favorite of the songs from Moana (as it happens, "Shiny") is still absolutely fantastic.


Best of all though - at least for me - is that the movie is all about brown people, and the actors themselves are actual Pacific Islanders, including of course the Rock. I want it to be a huge financial success for that reason alone.

I was worried about this film because of Disney's history with screwing up their depictions of other cultures, but I was quite pleased with how respectful (and possibly accurate as well) Moana was to the Pacific Island culture. :smallbiggrin: The Rock is pleasant and fun and charming as usual for me, and it seems like he was having a lot of fun in this movie.

Also, something I noticed a bit more upon rewatching the film: it does a good job of foreshadowing things. The more subtle examples I can think of are how Tamatoa is shown on-screen twice before they actually reach his lair (once in the grandmother's story, and once as one of Maui's tattoos during "You're Welcome"), and how during "Shiny" Tamatoa taunts Maui about his tragic backstory while they're fighting.

[Psyren]

Oh I agree she's a badass, but in a much more believable way than either of the other two examples.



did a decent job of getting to Maui in the first place despite having no sailing experience,

Er.... didn't she immediately shipwreck? :smalltongue:

No really, if the entire ocean wasn't her ally she'd be dead, dead, dead.


took on the boatful of Kakamora without so much as a scratch to show for it,

Meh, they have Stormtrooper aim and Lilliputian stature, making her own physical attributes practically superhuman compared to them.


surviving the fall into the Realm Of Monsters

This one I'll give you, it was a bit silly - especially given that she landed on Maui before landing in the water. They could've easily handwaved that there was some kind of magic involved as she shifted between planes to make the fall survivable though.




Prior to seeing Moana, I would've said that Frozen had a really good soundtrack, and it turns out that Frozen just has a soundtrack full of songs that are a bit too good to skip...but beyond Frozen Heart, For The First Time In Forever, and Let It Go, it doesn't really have any songs I'd play over and over just to listen to. To contrast, every song in Moana is one I could listen to over and over, and even my least favorite of the songs from Moana (as it happens, "Shiny") is still absolutely fantastic.

Shiny was my least favorite too (talk about a weakass villain song...) but yes, other than that, Moana blew Frozen out of the water in the music department.



Also, something I noticed a bit more upon rewatching the film: it does a good job of foreshadowing things. The more subtle examples I can think of are how Tamatoa is shown on-screen twice before they actually reach his lair (once in the grandmother's story, and once as one of Maui's tattoos during "You're Welcome"), and how during "Shiny" Tamatoa taunts Maui about his tragic backstory while they're fighting.

It does a good job explaining things too:

Why didn't the ocean just give Te Fiti back her heart - because as Te Ka, she can't touch the ocean without feeling immense pain.

Why did the ocean choose Moana - because she was the only one of her people who both yearned to explore and possessed the necessary kindness (as evidenced by protecting the baby turtle) to be able to return the heart the right way, by not fighting.

Why does Maui go to such lengths to help humanity - being abandoned by his family, he craved adulation, and it became almost like a drug for him - with every new feat needing to outdo the last. Hence stealing the Heart. It doesn't help matters that he gets sick ink every time he does something badass too.


And so on.

[AvatarVecna]

Er.... didn't she immediately shipwreck? :smalltongue:

No really, if the entire ocean wasn't her ally she'd be dead, dead, dead.

The first time she went out on the water, fair enough she wrecked before getting out of the reef. But the second time, she sails for hours out on the ocean, with the ocean's only apparent help in actually sailing being to wake her up when she fell asleep at the wheel. It's only when a huge storm (the same kind of storm that would doom any sailor, much less an inexperienced one) that she was finally taken out of the sailing business.

It can be assumed that the Ocean then washed her ashore to Maui's island, but that's either a much bigger assistance than the ocean has ever given her before, or she was a lot closer to Maui's island than an inexperienced land-dweller like her had any right to be.


Meh, they have Stormtrooper aim and Lilliputian stature, making her own physical attributes practically superhuman compared to them.

Their relative size makes any individual non-dangerous to her, but the group as a whole definitely would be, were it not for the stormtrooper aiming. Of course, their aim was only crap when it came to the blowdarts, they were pretty good with hitting the boat with spears. Their inability to aim doesn't change that she was quite the badass for storming onto a pirate boat alone armed only with an oar, nor does it change that she's a supreme badass for making it off that pirate boat as well.


This one I'll give you, it was a bit silly - especially given that she landed on Maui before landing in the water. They could've easily handwaved that there was some kind of magic involved as she shifted between planes to make the fall survivable though.


My thought is that she did a similar vine trick to Maui, but didn't do it as well as he did (and didn't stick the landing), so she fell instead of tumbled. Also, she had a soft landing at first, which helps. Still doesn't change that she was a super-badass for jumping in the first place, even with Maui basically taunting her about it before jumping himself.

EDIT: I guess my point is that I find all three of them to be badasses on a similar scale to one another, and that I think Moana only looks less "hyper-competent" because of the epic setting she's in.


Shiny was my least favorite too (talk about a weakass villain song...) but yes, other than that, Moana blew Frozen out of the water in the music department.

Don't get me wrong, I still loved Shiny, but I agree that it's the weakest song in the movie even though it's still really good and I could listen to it over and over.


It does a good job explaining things too:

Why didn't the ocean just give Te Fiti back her heart - because as Te Ka, she can't touch the ocean without feeling immense pain.

Why did the ocean choose Moana - because she was the only one of her people who both yearned to explore and possessed the necessary kindness (as evidenced by protecting the baby turtle) to be able to return the heart the right way, by not fighting.

Why does Maui go to such lengths to help humanity - being abandoned by his family, he craved adulation, and it became almost like a drug for him - with every new feat needing to outdo the last. Hence stealing the Heart. It doesn't help matters that he gets sick ink every time he does something badass too.


And so on.

Oh absolutely. So many things building up throughout the movie, so many things meshing wonderfully. The bit with the baby turtle is wonderful, but especially for what it means for Moana's character as the movie progresses.

[ImperiousLeader]

I really liked Moana, so can I just appreciate it on its own merits, without having to compare it to Frozen et al.?

I loved the twist ending, I really liked all the characters. The chicken was hilarious (And of course it's frickin' Alan Tudyk. I should just assume he's in every movie doing a voice that I won't recognise until the credits roll).

I have been listening to the soundtrack repeatedly. "I am Moana", "We Know the Way" and "How Far I'll Go" are my favourites, but all the songs are really enjoyable.

[Lethologica]

I've been singing 'How Far I'll Go' on repeat since I got back from the theater last week.

Now I need to go watch Disney's other Pacific Island treasure, Lilo and Stitch.


I prefer movies with strong villains that lead the show. While Moana is not a bad movie, I felt it seriously lacked in the villain department. The arguable main antagonist, Te Ka, had very little screen-time and has no characterization. Tamatoa (the giant crab) would have made a superb main villain (quirky and interesting personality-wise), but he also got far too little screen-time. Of course, this is understandable on some level, since the story of Moana doesn't really mesh well with an active villain. Still, the lack of such a defining villain made me bored of the movie very quickly.
For a contrasting viewpoint, I loved that the movie operated without an active villain--there is no dearth of Disney villainy, so having them tell a story without it feels like fresh territory. Maui and Te Ka are not ordinary Disney characters.

I always felt that the obstacles were sufficient to create stakes that kept me invested--Moana's duty, Te Ka's creeping decay, Chief Tui's fear, Moana's inexperience, Maui's intransigence, Tamatoa's greed, Te Ka's rage. I really appreciated when the obstacles arose from the legitimate feelings of basically good people, and I also liked when the enemy was inaction rather than malevolence. Those dynamics are deeply resonant in the real world, so I find them powerful in fiction.

[BiblioRook]

Now I need to go watch Disney's other Pacific Island treasure, Lilo and Stitch.

Lilo and Stitch always was one of my all-time favorites from Disney, that and Tangled.

While I liked Moana a lot, would I consider it among my favorites? I'm not sure. I guess the real test for that is see how it stands the test of time and after a couple of months see how I still view it.

[MDF1]

Did it appear to anybody else that Maui had Moana hypnotized during the 'you're welcome' sequence? It seemed to me that his charm and cocanut tapping had her in a kind of trance. Not sure if i'm reading into it too much.

[Gray Mage]

Saw the movie yesterday and loved it. :smallcool:


Did it appear to anybody else that Maui had Moana hypnotized during the 'you're welcome' sequence? It seemed to me that his charm and cocanut tapping had her in a kind of trance. Not sure if i'm reading into it too much.

Maui seems to be a trickster in the original mythos besides being a really strong dude, so probably that was a bit of an influence on the scene. Besides, he literally said he'd be taking her boat and sail away and she keeps the grin, so she trully was being swindled.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Remember that Moana had previously been convinced to become chief and later to not become chief by way of musical numbers too. The girl's Achilles Heel is clearly catchy tunes.

[AvatarVecna]

Remember that Moana had previously been convinced to become chief and later to not become chief by way of musical numbers too. The girl's Achilles Heel is clearly catchy tunes.

Some Disney tropes never die. :smalltongue:

[MDF1]

Saw the movie yesterday and loved it. :smallcool:



Maui seems to be a trickster in the original mythos besides being a really strong dude, so probably that was a bit of an influence on the scene. Besides, he literally said he'd be taking her boat and sail away and she keeps the grin, so she trully was being swindled.

That is a very solid point. I think you cracked this case. I didn't even think about that.

[The Troubadour]

I really enjoyed this movie. It felt both grandiose and intimate at the exact right moments. I especially liked Maui's character arc, though Moana's was also very well-done.

Personally, although I love Disney's awesome villains, I didn't miss one in this movie. Te Ka worked better as a distant, ominous figure, and the story was carried entirely by the protagonists, it didn't need a strong antagonist.


Shiny was my least favorite too (talk about a weakass villain song...) [...]

Sorry, but you're crazy. :-P That song made me miss David Bowie even more.

[dehro]

I just would've wanted to be a fly on the wall in the board meeting where they decided to call the movie Oceania and the main character Vaiana in the Italian version.
"So, Moana it is then..-good. It's a good name. I like it"
"Well, sir, we can't do that everywhere."
"What? Why not?"
"Well, there are places where the name has a history, sir."
"Such as? "
"Italy would be one such place, sir"
"What? Why? What have they got against Polynesian culture?"
"Nothing sir, that's not the point really"
"What is the problem then?"
"I'd rather not say, sir"
"Out with it, young man"
"Well.. in the 80's and 90's in Italy the name was used by a rather famous porn star..."
"A..."
"Indeed, sir"
"Surely that's not relevant? It's a children movie..they won't know.."
"It's the parents, sir...there would be giggling"
"And that's not good? We used to like giggles"
"Not this kind, sir, also, there would be nudging"
"Oh, no.. giggling and nudging together is not good, we don't want that!"
"No sir, we don't"
"Aren't they Catholics in Italy?"
"Yes sir"
"Well then, surely nobody will remember a... woman from 30 years ago who..."
"Almost everybody, sir."
"What do you mean everybody?"
"She was a very public figure, back in the day"
"Public figure? How is that possible?"
"She was also a member of parliament for a time"
"Young man, are you pulling my leg? I don't like my legs pulled. I'm very attached to them. What party could possibly have wanted her nomination?"
"No leg pulling, sir. She created her own party, with other, eh.. actresses."
"Those Italians will do everything to make a mess of things. Can't we just forget about them?"
"60 million people, sir.. It's a rather big market"
"You know what? I'll let you sort this one out. After all, that's what we pay you for"
"Very well, sir. We will come up with something suitable"
"Excellent.."
"..."
"Young man..."
"Sir?"
"How is it you know so much about this Moana person?"
"I would really rather not say, sir..."

[Psyren]

Sorry, but you're crazy. :-P That song made me miss David Bowie even more.

The song itself was adequate on its own merits I guess, but come on. Compared to the likes of Hellfire, or Be Prepared, or Poor Unfortunate Souls, it doesn't come close. Even the similarly arrogant Gaston had a superior (eponymous) ditty. Not to mention Maui's own and much better brag song earlier in the film - which is the other problem, merely being an adequate song in a film like Moana that was otherwise full of powerhouse ballads doesn't pass muster.


I just would've wanted to be a fly on the wall in the board meeting where they decided to call the movie Oceania and the main character Vaiana in the Italian version.
"So, Moana it is then..-good. It's a good name. I like it"
"Well, sir, we can't do that everywhere."
"What? Why not?"
"Well, there are places where the name has a history, sir."
"Such as? "
"Italy would be one such place, sir"
"What? Why? What have they got against Polynesian culture?"
"Nothing sir, that's not the point really"
"What is the problem then?"
"I'd rather not say, sir"
"Out with it, young man"
"Well.. in the 80's and 90's in Italy the name was used by a rather famous porn star..."
"A..."
"Indeed, sir"
"Surely that's not relevant? It's a children movie..they won't know.."
"It's the parents, sir...there would be giggling"
"And that's not good? We used to like giggles"
"Not this kind, sir, also, there would be nudging"
"Oh, no.. giggling and nudging together is not good, we don't want that!"
"No sir, we don't"
"Aren't they Catholics in Italy?"
"Yes sir"
"Well then, surely nobody will remember a... woman from 30 years ago who..."
"Almost everybody, sir."
"What do you mean everybody?"
"She was a very public figure, back in the day"
"Public figure? How is that possible?"
"She was also a member of parliament for a time"
"Young man, are you pulling my leg? I don't like my legs pulled. I'm very attached to them. What party could possibly have wanted her nomination?"
"No leg pulling, sir. She created her own party, with other, eh.. actresses."
"Those Italians will do everything to make a mess of things. Can't we just forget about them?"
"60 million people, sir.. It's a rather big market"
"You know what? I'll let you sort this one out. After all, that's what we pay you for"
"Very well, sir. We will come up with something suitable"
"Excellent.."
"..."
"Young man..."
"Sir?"
"How is it you know so much about this Moana person?"
"I would really rather not say, sir..."

And now I'm wondering what would have happened had I googled Moana before this film was announced :smalleek:

(Or the level of SEO that Disney had to undertake to scrub that particular reference.)

[The Troubadour]

The song itself was adequate on its own mertis I guess, but come on. Compared to the likes of Hellfire, or Be Prepared, or Poor Unfortunate Souls, it doesn't come close.

Ah, that's what you meant. Ok, I'll give you that, it's not nearly as good a showcase of how awesome the bad guy is compared to those. That said, Tamatoa isn't the movie's villain, unlike Frollo, Scar or Ursula; he's an obstacle in the protagonists' journey, nothing more.

[Murk]

I must say I also really love the reactions to this movie from a lot of polynesian/pacific peoples. I actually see a lot of them celebrate the diversity: the type of dance from one island, the clothing from another, boats from this island group and houses from that island group.
I find it interesting. Can you imagine what would happen if Disney made a movie from a classic European tale, and the characters would eat bratwurst with baguettes and shout "mama mia!" at the bullfights? I don't think many people would be happy.
But they've done exactly that in the Pacific area, and everyone loves it. Is that because all the island cultures are much more similar, or is it just because the region is so starved for media attention that they'll take anything they can get?

[Aidan305]

I would hazard a guess that it's a little of both. The mythologies of the various polynesian island groups celebrated in the film are more unified than we might expect of, say, European mythologies, in that there are a number of similar themes and figures, such as Maui. They do however, differ among all the different nations in how the stories are told, and what stories are told. So while you might have a single heroic deity, each culture will tell different legends about the deeds of that figure.

It might be comparable to look at a single Pantheon with many different stories, such as the Norse pantheon, and how the deities there are depicted differently depending on which germanic/scandinavian culture is telling the stories.

[cobaltstarfire]

But they've done exactly that in the Pacific area, and everyone loves it. Is that because all the island cultures are much more similar, or is it just because the region is so starved for media attention that they'll take anything they can get?

I suspect it's a little bit of both.

The Oceania Cultures are interconnected to a certain degree, they all have their roots in South East Asia, and spread out into Oceania from there.

And then there's just being starved for media attention. I have a very distant/tentative tie to Oceania at best (my grandfather is Filipino, from the mountains, some might say that's not Oceania at all) but I definitely felt this movie resonated with me far more than anything else I've seen. There's just little things in the general attitudes and familial structures going on that feel "right" to me that don't really show up in the media.

And I went into this movie feeling skeptical, the impact I felt from it was very surprising. I definitely sobbed for some parts just because I was emotionally overwhelmed by seeing and experiencing such a resonance with the film.

[Yael]

I loved it!

"Whatever, Princess"

I'm not a princess. I'm a Chief's daughter.

Same difference.

No it's not!

"Look, you're in a dress and have a cute animal sidekick. You're a princess!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! A direct stab at the movie formula. Touche!

I literally LMAO'd at that scene.

I truly consider this agood match for Frozen. True, its music isn't that good as Elsa's Let it Go, but You're Welcome, and It Calls Me are catchy and at least YWC is pretty cool considering what it talks about.

The new array of princesses Disney has come up with are actually kinda more complex than the original cast. And they allow to non-girls to watch and understand its stories, and I'm deeply refeering at the movie ending, which I won't talk about because of SPOILERS.
New ones being: (Queen) Elsa, Princess Anna, Moana, Merida, and Rapunzel.

[Red Fel]

I prefer movies with strong villains that lead the show. While Moana is not a bad movie, I felt it seriously lacked in the villain department. The arguable main antagonist, Te Ka, had very little screen-time and has no characterization. Tamatoa (the giant crab) would have made a superb main villain (quirky and interesting personality-wise), but he also got far too little screen-time. Of course, this is understandable on some level, since the story of Moana doesn't really mesh well with an active villain. Still, the lack of such a defining villain made me bored of the movie very quickly.


Don't get me wrong, I still loved Shiny, but I agree that it's the weakest song in the movie even though it's still really good and I could listen to it over and over.

Hey, folks. Resident villain expert here, thought I'd chip in. Here's the thing that struck me about Moana - there is a villain. And it's not who you think.

The villain is the self. Specifically, self-deception.

Yes, there are conflicts. Enemies. Coconut pirates, decapod, demon. But they aren't villains. They're obstacles.

The villain is self-deception. Think about the various characters and what they overcome.

Moana: Throughout the film, Moana seeks her own identity. First she's looking for why the sea calls to her. Then she's playing second-fiddle to a juvenile demigod. It's only at the climax that she realizes the need to be the protagonist in her own story; her self-realization, in turn, leads to a realization about how to defeat Te Ka.

Grandmother (I forget her name, did she have one?): Her whole character is the lesson - "know thyself." She knows who she is, and persistently is that person, despite being told to stop. She tattoos her true self on her back; sure enough, we see her when she passes on. She knows herself, and is wise and strong for it.

The islanders: Moana's people have forgotten who they are. That's what her grandmother keeps saying. It is only after Moana realizes herself and saves them that they rediscover their passion and their purpose.

Maui: Maui is convinced that his value, as a person, comes from (1) his powers ("Without the hook, I'm nobody,") and the adoration of humans. He seeks the love of humanity in a misguided attempt to rediscover the love of his family that he was denied. When he recovers the hook, he can't get his powers to work right, because he still attributes his importance to outside sources; it's only later, when he recovers his confidence, that he can use it. At the end of the film, he has the opportunity to do what he thought he wanted - to become a hero and guide to humanity, gain their love and adoration - but declines, because he no longer needs it. He has discovered his value in himself.

And think of the "villains:"
Tamatoa: Tamatoa is there as an illustration - a contrast to Maui. His specific line about how Maui's "tattoos on the outside" inspired him is an illustration of that. "Shiny" represents that idea - that your importance comes from outside sources, how you are perceived by others. Again, that's Maui's baggage - he bases his importance on how much he can get humanity to love him. "Shiny" isn't just a big-lipped alligator moment, it's designed to contrast the message of "find importance in yourself" with Tamatoa's message of "find importance in how others perceive you."

Te Ka: Moana defeats Te Ka with her own realization - the need to rediscover who she is. Te Ka isn't beaten by conquest or trickery, but by helping it to remember who it truly is - again, the message of the movie, "know thyself," coming out again.

So of course "Shiny" isn't a great villain song. Tamatoa isn't a villain - he's an object lesson.

It is catchy, though, isn't it?

[AvatarVecna]

Hey, folks. Resident villain expert here, thought I'd chip in. Here's the thing that struck me about Moana - there is a villain. And it's not who you think.

The villain is the self. Specifically, self-deception.

Yes, there are conflicts. Enemies. Coconut pirates, decapod, demon. But they aren't villains. They're obstacles.

The villain is self-deception. Think about the various characters and what they overcome.

Moana: Throughout the film, Moana seeks her own identity. First she's looking for why the sea calls to her. Then she's playing second-fiddle to a juvenile demigod. It's only at the climax that she realizes the need to be the protagonist in her own story; her self-realization, in turn, leads to a realization about how to defeat Te Ka.

Grandmother (I forget her name, did she have one?): Her whole character is the lesson - "know thyself." She knows who she is, and persistently is that person, despite being told to stop. She tattoos her true self on her back; sure enough, we see her when she passes on. She knows herself, and is wise and strong for it.

The islanders: Moana's people have forgotten who they are. That's what her grandmother keeps saying. It is only after Moana realizes herself and saves them that they rediscover their passion and their purpose.

Maui: Maui is convinced that his value, as a person, comes from (1) his powers ("Without the hook, I'm nobody,") and the adoration of humans. He seeks the love of humanity in a misguided attempt to rediscover the love of his family that he was denied. When he recovers the hook, he can't get his powers to work right, because he still attributes his importance to outside sources; it's only later, when he recovers his confidence, that he can use it. At the end of the film, he has the opportunity to do what he thought he wanted - to become a hero and guide to humanity, gain their love and adoration - but declines, because he no longer needs it. He has discovered his value in himself.

And think of the "villains:"
Tamatoa: Tamatoa is there as an illustration - a contrast to Maui. His specific line about how Maui's "tattoos on the outside" inspired him is an illustration of that. "Shiny" represents that idea - that your importance comes from outside sources, how you are perceived by others. Again, that's Maui's baggage - he bases his importance on how much he can get humanity to love him. "Shiny" isn't just a big-lipped alligator moment, it's designed to contrast the message of "find importance in yourself" with Tamatoa's message of "find importance in how others perceive you."

Te Ka: Moana defeats Te Ka with her own realization - the need to rediscover who she is. Te Ka isn't beaten by conquest or trickery, but by helping it to remember who it truly is - again, the message of the movie, "know thyself," coming out again.

So of course "Shiny" isn't a great villain song. Tamatoa isn't a villain - he's an object lesson.

It is catchy, though, isn't it?

I'm aware of the significance the song plays in the movie (it's wonderful irony that the after-credits scene builds on Tamatoa's self-imposed limitation, that he could probably get up if he wasn't weighed down by so much shiny gold, and that his leg would've grown back if he could bear to part with his gold long enough to molt), and I'm not saying it's terrible, it's just that to be it seems like the weakest in a line of awesome songs. It's still awesome, but it's...less awesome than the other songs in the movie, just enough that I can definitely tell it's not on par with the others. You're Welcome is better by a hair or two, with We Know The Way/I Am Moana/How Far I'll Go passing both of them by a mile. All of these songs are great, Shiny is just the worst of best. This soundtrack is fantastic from beginning to end.

[Lethologica]

I must say I also really love the reactions to this movie from a lot of polynesian/pacific peoples. I actually see a lot of them celebrate the diversity: the type of dance from one island, the clothing from another, boats from this island group and houses from that island group.
I find it interesting. Can you imagine what would happen if Disney made a movie from a classic European tale, and the characters would eat bratwurst with baguettes and shout "mama mia!" at the bullfights? I don't think many people would be happy.
But they've done exactly that in the Pacific area, and everyone loves it. Is that because all the island cultures are much more similar, or is it just because the region is so starved for media attention that they'll take anything they can get?
I remember hearing about criticism from Polynesian people on exactly that point. Different people having different expectations is only natural.

[Friv]

I find it interesting. Can you imagine what would happen if Disney made a movie from a classic European tale, and the characters would eat bratwurst with baguettes and shout "mama mia!" at the bullfights? I don't think many people would be happy.

I feel like a lot of Disney movies have that kind of "vaguely European" aesthetic going for them, especially the older ones - Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Tangled, even the weird mixture of French and German elements all over Beauty and the Beast.

[Red Fel]

I'm aware of the significance the song plays in the movie (it's wonderful irony that the after-credits scene builds on Tamatoa's self-imposed limitation, that he could probably get up if he wasn't weighed down by so much shiny gold, and that his leg would've grown back if he could bear to part with his gold long enough to molt), and I'm not saying it's terrible, it's just that to be it seems like the weakest in a line of awesome songs. It's still awesome, but it's...less awesome than the other songs in the movie, just enough that I can definitely tell it's not on par with the others. You're Welcome is better by a hair or two, with We Know The Way/I Am Moana/How Far I'll Go passing both of them by a mile. All of these songs are great, Shiny is just the worst of best. This soundtrack is fantastic from beginning to end.

I can agree with that. On its musical merits, "Shiny" is fairly weak compared to the rest of the score. And viewed as a villain song (notwithstanding my earlier point), it really doesn't stand up. It needs more.

Any of the classic villain songs had something to recommend them. "Poor Unfortunate Souls" had a fantastic key and tempo change entering the last verse. "Prince Ali (reprise)" did a great job with its ironic echoing of the original, changing the key to be much darker. "Be Prepared" was an intimidating march with great ambiance, and "Hellfire" made amazing use of chanting and a symphonic climax. Even among more recent work, in Tangled, the reprise to "Mother Knows Best" is great (and in my mind, better than the initial version). It's the added element that makes it memorable - contrast those with "Gaston," which, while funny and bouncy, doesn't deviate from its initial key or tempo, doesn't add anything new or more powerful.

I think "Shiny" could have used something more. And I think we almost see it, which is the frustrating part. We get first verse, pause for Maui Time, second verse. Then we get to the bridge, which is dark and low and exciting, building up to something. Then it jumps up in key with, "Maui, now it's time to kick your heiney," and you think you're about to get a climactic key change... But no, it goes right back to the chorus in its original key. That actually let me down musically.

Part of our enjoyment from music comes from anticipation. People are able to sort of sense where a musical pattern is going, it's really quite fascinating. This song lies. It implies that it's going into a new pattern, then promptly drops back into the old. In that sense, it's very frustrating, and falls short of what it could be.

Still catchy, though.

[arrowed]

I loved all the music. They've been taking turns as my random humming go-to. But I have to say my favorite is Heihei's little number... right after Moana finds him on her boat. :smallbiggrin:
Besides that I love seeing all the different themes people have picked out from the movie. The one I've seen is responsibility: Moana has a responsibility to her people, but it's not just being chief, it's addressing the greater issue caused by Maui, who has a responsibility to put right what he messed up. Moana's father sees his responsibility as protecting his people, especially Moana, and does that by forbidding going beyond the reef.
As a quick note, I'd like to say I love that they took the time to give a specific reason for his over protectiveness, rather than just making him a randomly obstinate adult.
Going back to Moana, we have that lovely scene on a still ocean where she first tries to give up the responsibility, then after a touching talk from Grandma Tala takes firm hold of it and gets the job done.
I'm not expressing myself very well, I think, but I do think responsibility was a theme.

[AvatarVecna]

One thing I liked about Moana is how it kept a Disney trope, but finally gave me an underlying reason that explains the trope and makes it easier to appreciate in other Disney movies, even though it's not stated. I've rarely understood the vague motivation of "I want...something...more?" It's an interesting motivation when it's not explained, in that the person who desires it doesn't quite understand their desire, despite wanting it, but past a certain point, the lack of understanding of that urge is maddening, particularly to somebody who feels similarly but is unable to put words to their desire, and is looking to movies like this for an explanation. Why are you so interested in getting away from what you have, when what you have is great? Why push for more, why take the risk on seeking out the unknown? It's difficult to describe the desire just as it's difficult to describe why not understanding it frustrates me, but I can say for certain that in Moana, the titular characters feels this way even without quite putting it that way...and unlike other Disney movies, this feeling is expressed in a way that explains it simply and succinctly when Moana herself realizes the feeling that's been guiding her: "We were voyagers."

Exploration, seeking out the new and unknown, is a powerful urge, and one that pops up a lot in Disney movies, but is rarely explained enough to give guidance to those who might feel the same, and I appreciate this movie for giving me an explanation, even if it's so short, because putting it into words helps guide my thoughts on the subject, and helps me to express it in a way I can better explain.

[The Troubadour]

Still catchy, though.

So much. I would have offered a whole herd in sacrifice for that song to have been re-recorded by Bowie.

[The_Snark]

I find it interesting. Can you imagine what would happen if Disney made a movie from a classic European tale, and the characters would eat bratwurst with baguettes and shout "mama mia!" at the bullfights? I don't think many people would be happy.

Mmm. At least with regards to the mythology, I think it was a good choice to make it a melange of elements inspired by Polynesian legend without actually claiming to be those legends. (Except Maui, but there are already several not-quite-the-same versions of him in different cultures, another variation isn't anything new.) Te Fiti and Te Ka aren't claiming to be Pele or Hina, but you can see how they're drawing on the same themes.

Contrast with Disney's Hercules, which did get a lot of flak for presenting a weirdly butchered version of the Greek story.

I can't speak to the presentation of the islanders themselves, as I'm not terribly familiar with the relevant cultures. But again, I think it was a conscious choice to use a mix of elements from different cultures, rather than trying to make them specifically Hawaiian, or Samoan, or Maori, etc.

[cobaltstarfire]

There were a lot of consultants on the project from many different groups, it definitely seems purposeful. Especially after coming home from the movie and looking up the Wayfinders.

[arrowed]

Contrast with Disney's Hercules, which did get a lot of flak for presenting a weirdly butchered version of the Greek story.

I did not know this was a thing (although in fairness I was born the year it came out). It surprises me because in the actual legend Hercules goes mad and kills Meg and their children. It's not very faithful to the original myths, but if it was it wouldn't be a kid's movie. And they're hardly reserving that treatment to Hercules: Sleeping Beauty, Rapunzel and a fair few others are quite different from the source material.
Why the fuss over Hercules?

[AvatarVecna]

I did not know this was a thing (although in fairness I was born the year it came out). It surprises me because in the actual legend Hercules goes mad and kills Meg and their children. It's not very faithful to the original myths, but if it was it wouldn't be a kid's movie. And they're hardly reserving that treatment to Hercules: Sleeping Beauty, Rapunzel and a fair few others are quite different from the source material.
Why the fuss over Hercules?

The "events being missing or out of order" is only part of the problem, and to me it was the lesser problem; mythology in general can sometimes be a bit unclear about the details of events, but generally the character themselves stayed close to their "other" versions. I could've ignored the weird event order or musical choices if the main character had been Heracles even in the loosest sense, like somewhere between Maui and Gaston in personality, but Hercules was not Heracles in this movie, he was Superman, at least as far as backstory, personality, and (to an extent) abilities go. And I totally get why they didn't have Hercules be Heracles: if Hercules had been like Heracles at all, this couldn't have been a Disney movie. Forget about being driven temporarily insane to kill his wife and children, the adventures of Hercules are the tales of a violent super-strong alcoholic who's performs great deeds to make up for when he accidentally murders people in a drunken rampage - and the villain of these stories is the goddess of motherhood and family.

It's like, imagine if Disney made a "the Lord will show you the way" kind of movie, where the religious elements are mostly subdued (compared to most religious movies, anyway); it takes place in the big city, and the main character is a young 20 something you thought life wouldn't be so hard, and isn't sure how to deal with all the pressure. But she gets to talking with her neighbor, John Kramer, a retired civil engineer who still works on woodworking projects while discussing philosophy with his neighbors. He's a friendly enough old dude who seems to enjoy his simple life, who doesn't let cancer get him down, and who has a fondness for hoodies. Weird, but friendly old mentor type, dispensing wisdom like "the Lord helps those who help themselves" and that kinda stuff, that kind of character...definitely fits well into that kind of movie, as long as you don't know where the character comes from. But if you do know where the character comes from, then even if none of the horror elements in his franchise of origin ever creep into this Disney religious movie, you have to wonder "what the hell is the Jigsaw Killer doing in a freaking Disney movie?!"

It would be one thing if Hercules was just toned down from the original version to make him more on-brand for Disney, but they basically turned him into a boy scout Superman knockoff, and took the whole "bastard child" part of his backstory out, and made him a really nice guy who used to cause accidents as a kid because he was clumsy, rather than causing accidents as an adult because he's an alcoholic. If you're going to make a movie about an existing character, and then change basically everything about the character and their stories and the setting they're in, why are you making a story about that character at all when there's nothing about that character you're going to actually keep besides the name? And it's not like Disney couldn't have made a slightly dark version of Hercules rather instead of going full dark or squeaky clean, because they managed it just fine with Hunchback (in many respects an even darker story than those of Hercules) the previous year.

[Friv]

I did not know this was a thing (although in fairness I was born the year it came out). It surprises me because in the actual legend Hercules goes mad and kills Meg and their children. It's not very faithful to the original myths, but if it was it wouldn't be a kid's movie. And they're hardly reserving that treatment to Hercules: Sleeping Beauty, Rapunzel and a fair few others are quite different from the source material.
Why the fuss over Hercules?

In addition to everything Vecna said, I recall a lot of frustration at the time about the decision to make Hades the villain, instead of Ares; the Greeks very explicitly didn't think of Hades as a villainous character, and "death=evil" is a very boring idea that gets dumped onto other regions and religions a lot.

There was also a lot of annoyance over Hercules being a full god whose power was stolen, rather than a product of an affair between Zeus and a mortal, which I guess makes sense if you need to completely strip out the Zeus and Hera stuff, but dramatically changes their characters in the process. And, of course, there's the minor detail that they called him Hercules at all, which is his Roman name, but used Greek names for everyone else.

[The_Snark]

I did not know this was a thing (although in fairness I was born the year it came out). It surprises me because in the actual legend Hercules goes mad and kills Meg and their children. It's not very faithful to the original myths, but if it was it wouldn't be a kid's movie. And they're hardly reserving that treatment to Hercules: Sleeping Beauty, Rapunzel and a fair few others are quite different from the source material.
Why the fuss over Hercules?

To put it simply, in the other cases, the plot was still recognizable. Disney edited out the really dark bits, added their own elaborations and comic side characters, but they didn't replace the whole story with one of their own invention. The Little Mermaid doesn't end with Ariel dissolving into sea-foam, but it preserves most of the rest of the Hans Christian Andersen story reasonably well. Tangled made a number of changes (the magical healing, the romance with the prince*), but the basic witch-keeps-Rapunzel-in-tower, prince-finds-her structure is there. (Along with some details that never really made it into the pop culture consciousness.) Hunchback of Notre Dame changes Victor Hugo's ending into a happy one, but the setup with the abused hunchback, beautiful woman and lustful authority figure is preserved.

Hercules... doesn't. He's a son of Zeus who's incredibly strong, and that's all they have in common. He isn't a bastard son, Hera isn't out to get him, there are no Twelve Labors - granted, for that one they would've had to invent an alternate reason for him to undertake them, but they could have done that. Or taken inspiration from any of the numerous other legends about Heracles. Instead, they turned Hades into an antagonist and invented some plot where Hercules has to save Olympus from the Titans.

[The Troubadour]

Instead, they turned Hades into an antagonist and invented some plot where Hercules has to save Olympus from the Titans.

That's inspired by the "Gigantomachy", actually. But I agree with the spirit of your post: "Hercules" is basically a generic super-hero story, only they use (very loosely) the trappings of Greek mythology for "brand recognition", so to speak.
It's a fun movie - I'd place it above many others in the Disney canon -, but it does have more than its fair share of mistakes.

[AvatarVecna]

there are no Twelve Labors

The Labors are there, but they're not really presented as the Twelve Labors, and a number of them either go by in the "Zero To Hero" montage song, or get a one-off reference at some point.