Suggestions for a villainous fiend.

[Incarnate]

Hey everyone.

I'm in the process of creating a villainous character for a larger campaign, where the player characters are mostly evil. The villain would be their leader/questgiver, where they're helping the villain rise in power as part of a larger plot. Where he will later on become their enemy.

The villain is a fullblooded fiend however he's a half-demon/half-devil who have been created through magic, where upon realizing what he really is he decided to create his own reign.

I'm thinking he's fully progressed in the fiend of Blasphemy with racial levels in both demon and devil, but I'm missing some templates for half-demon and half-devil. However I've found a source for various half-demon/half-devil, but not where they're half of each.

As for class I'm a bit unsure. What would be a good fit for such a character? One that would fit well with Fiend of Blasphemy?

[Edit]
Setting is Forgotten Realms

[khadgar567]

​setting please

[Inevitability]

There's the Khytons (not to be confused with Kytons) which are basically what you're looking for: the offspring of demons and devils mutated into living weapons with living weapons.

I believe they're from the BovD.

[Incarnate]

​setting please

Forgotten Realms.

[khadgar567]

Forgotten Realms.
thanks mate

[Tiri]

There's the Khytons (not to be confused with Kytons) which are basically what you're looking for: the offspring of demons and devils mutated into living weapons with living weapons.

I believe they're from the BovD.

It's spelled Kython, actually.

They also aren't the offspring of demons and devils, they are an attempt at artificially creating fiends.

[Incarnate]

There's the Khytons (not to be confused with Kytons) which are basically what you're looking for: the offspring of demons and devils mutated into living weapons with living weapons.

I believe they're from the BovD.

It's not what I'm looking for. First of all. The only thing these have in common with what I'm looking for is that they're magically created, that they're fiends and they later on have a more humanoid form.
Secondly, they're seemingly more demonic than anything else, as they seek to propagate and kill; destroyers - which demons are.

What I'm looking to create is something that is both half-demon & half-devil, an intelligent humanoid closely resembling a human (most likely through alternate form) capable of functioning as the pc's lord.

A little lore might help:
This villain was created through powerful ritual magic where the blood of both a very powerful demon and a very powerful devil had been perfectly mixed to an equal half of both, these two were of equal power in measure. The ritual was performed on the mother but aimed towards her unborn offspring - the villlain. When it was born it was in human form (hence the alternate form), but as he grew older he learned to change his shape to his actual natural form - the half-demon/half-devil form - but still humanoid though. Basically a crossbreed between tanar'ri and baatezu.

I hope this little piece of lore can help its creation in the correct direction.

[Tiri]

You know, I've just had an idea for what you're thinking of.

First, take a Stained Glass Golem, from MMII. Apply the Incarnate Construct Template.

You now have a CR 2 creature with 12 HD.

We're not done yet, though. Next, apply the Unholy Scion and Half-Fiend templates, to reflect both sides of his fiendish heritage. You can decide which side reflects either the demon or devil part of him. You can also customise Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) for a specific fiend, if you like.

Finally, to give him some shape-changing ability, he can take a level in Egoist with the ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) that gives him a changeling's Minor Change Shape ability. He can continue Egoist if he likes, it not being a bad class for one with shape-shifting aspirations, or start another class as he goes up the CRs, like the aforementioned Fiend of Blasphemy.

The result of all this is a CR 8, 12 HD creature with a barrage of spell-like abilities, some of which are very potent, excellent ability scores and melee ability, a natural form with fiendish elements and the ability to change appearance to something less evil-looking.

It's also something you can imagine would be created artificially through experimentation.

I'm assuming this is for an NPC, though, as you described him as a 'questgiver'. It's not suited for PC usage due to fiendish amounts of LA.

[Incarnate]

You know, I've just had an idea for what you're thinking of.

First, take a Stained Glass Golem, from MMII. Apply the Incarnate Construct Template.

You now have a CR 2 creature with 12 HD.

We're not done yet, though. Next, apply the Unholy Scion and Half-Fiend templates, to reflect both sides of his fiendish heritage. You can decide which side reflects either the demon or devil part of him. You can also customise Half-Fiend (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) for a specific fiend, if you like.

Finally, to give him some shape-changing ability, he can take a level in Egoist with the ACF (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) that gives him a changeling's Minor Change Shape ability. He can continue Egoist if he likes, it not being a bad class for one with shape-shifting aspirations, or start another class as he goes up the CRs, like the aforementioned Fiend of Blasphemy.

The result of all this is a CR 8, 12 HD creature with a barrage of spell-like abilities, some of which are very potent, excellent ability scores and melee ability, a natural form with fiendish elements and the ability to change appearance to something less evil-looking.

It's also something you can imagine would be created artificially through experimentation.

I'm assuming this is for an NPC, though, as you described him as a 'questgiver'. It's not suited for PC usage due to fiendish amounts of LA.

Some of it sounds like a good idea, however there are certain lore parts to it that doesn't make sense, namely the Unholy Scion and the Stained Glass Golem + Incarnate Construct Template.
The Unholy Scion happens through birth, to my knowledge a construct is created NOT born, which would disqualify either one, and if the Stained Glass Golem is disqualified so is the Incarnate Construct. Secondly, it doesn't fit with the lore for the character.

I'm considering using this source (http://fizzygoo.com/Dnd/Monsters/half-fiends.html).
Basically taking two (one demon and one devil) I find fitting and then combine the two. Otherwise it would be the Unholy Scion + the half-fiend.

..yes its for an npc!

The egoist 1st level sounds like a good choice + 6 levels in fiend of blasphemy. The question is what class should be it's core, I'm thinking it should definitely be a caster class, have been considering warlock, wizard or cleric, + potentially a secondary prestige class that synergizes well with the fiend of blasphemy or the core class, perhaps something that gives SLAs.

[Tiri]

Some of it sounds like a good idea, however there are certain lore parts to it that doesn't make sense, namely the Unholy Scion and the Stained Glass Golem + Incarnate Construct Template.
The Unholy Scion happens through birth, to my knowledge a construct is created NOT born, which would disqualify either one, and if the Stained Glass Golem is disqualified so is the Incarnate Construct. Secondly, it doesn't fit with the lore for the character.

I'm considering using this source (http://fizzygoo.com/Dnd/Monsters/half-fiends.html).
Basically taking two (one demon and one devil) I find fitting and then combine the two. Otherwise it would be the Unholy Scion + the half-fiend.

..yes its for an npc!

The egoist 1st level sounds like a good choice + 6 levels in fiend of blasphemy. The question is what class should be it's core, I'm thinking it should definitely be a caster class, have been considering warlock, wizard or cleric, + potentially a secondary prestige class that synergizes well with the fiend of blasphemy or the core class, perhaps something that gives SLAs.

Well, it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider the moment of the SGG's incarnation as its birth. After all, that is the point where is becomes alive and self-aware. Sounds a whole lot like birth to me.

I can't say I think much of third-party sources in general, but it's your game.

[Inevitability]

Alternatively, maybe two Incarnate Stained Glass Golems had a child together (certain BoEF items may have been involved), which then got possessed?

[Incarnate]

Well, it wouldn't be unreasonable to consider the moment of the SGG's incarnation as its birth. After all, that is the point where is becomes alive and self-aware. Sounds a whole lot like birth to me.

I can't say I think much of third-party sources in general, but it's your game.

It doesn't just happen through birth, but as a result of mating, where its either because of high taint in the area or the unborn child becomes mentally possessed by a fiend until the time of birth. This part is what disqualifies EVERY construct from the template, because no construct is born as a result of mating.

The third-party is also only a consideration as not many a viable options.

A viable option would be the half-fiend+unholy scion, where both reflects the fiendish heritage - using this option would create a base LA+9
I'm thinking using the half-fiend twice would also be viable however a few traits would have to be replaced with the actual tanar'ri and baatezu traits - using this would create a base LA+8.

Apart from the race, I also need some suggestions towards the actual build with the fiend of blasphemy.

[Tiri]

It doesn't just happen through birth, but as a result of mating, where its either because of high taint in the area or the unborn child becomes mentally possessed by a fiend until the time of birth.
This part is what disqualifies EVERY construct from the template, because no construct is born as a result of mating.

The third-party is also only a consideration as not many a viable options.

A viable option would be the half-fiend+unholy scion, where both reflects the fiendish heritage - using this option would create a base LA+9
I'm thinking using the half-fiend twice would also be viable however a few traits would have to be replaced with the actual tanar'ri and baatezu traits - using this would create a base LA+8.

Apart from the race, I also need some suggestions towards the actual build with the fiend of blasphemy.

Well, no. Not really. The flavor text in the template says 'Not all births that follow from the mating of an evil outsider and mortal'. It doesn't say that this is the only method of creation of an unholy scion.

Furthermore, by RAW (the actual rules part of the template) the template can apply to any humanoid or animal. As we know, not all humanoids or animals are born as a result of mating, and there are more such cases in D&D than in real life due to the presence of magic. Therefore mating cannot be the only method of creating an unholy scion, going by RAW.

As for Fiend of Blasphemy, I can't give you much advice. It's basically a caster class with some extra abilities, and you have to finish it to get all those abilities. Not much room for variation.

[Incarnate]

Well, no. Not really. The flavor text in the template says 'Not all births that follow from the mating of an evil outsider and mortal'. It doesn't say that this is the only method of creation of an unholy scion.
First of all, when quoting you'll have to use the entire sentence and everything relevant to the context, otherwise one can easily create a different meaning than the intended.

The EXACT quote is:
"Not all births that follow from the mating of an evil outsider and a mortal result in a half-fiend. If the female partner in such a union is impregnated in an area of high taint, the result is the unholy scion. An unholy scion can also be created when a fiend mentally possess an unborn child within the womb. In either case, it is a creature with fiendish power and malignance, all the more terrifying for its ability to pass as mortal."
Looking at the first part of the quote, its the last part that you omitted thats important thats important to its context. : "result in a half-fiend".. Which basically just means its not always not always it becomes a half-fiend. The next part of the quote goes into TWO other ways for an Unholy scion to be created. The first is due to HIGH TAINT and the other is when the unborn child is mentally possessed within the womb.

So by RAW and RAI this section describes that there are only three specific ways it can happen.
1: Mating with an evil outsider (where the evil outsider is a fiend, but this part have been omitted).
2: Impregnation happening in a HIGH taint area.
3: When a fiend possess the unborn child within the womb (until the child is born).

Constructs aren't the result of mating or impregnation, neither have they been in a womb. Which pretty much rules out the template for use with constructs.

This quote:
"Unholy scions look like normal members of their mortal parent’s race, but they are subtly disturbing."
The quote definitely should make it even more obvious that this template is for living humanoids or animals, that have a mortal parent. And when connected with the whole context of the first quote it becomes quite obviously apparent that its intended for humanoids or animals that have been born by the female parent.

Furthermore, supernatural ability Familial Charm clearly indicates that the Unholy Scion has a mother, this supports the above understanding of its description in relation to which it can be applied to.

Familial Charm (Su):An unholy scion’s mother is under a constant charm person or charm animal effect (as appropriate), generated by the scion. The mother might be aware that her actions are inappropriate, even that her child is evil, but she cannot shake her emotional devotion to it. The scion can switch between its own senses and its mother’s at will as a free action. The scion can use any of its spell-like abilities with its mother, rather than itself, as the source, much as wizards can deliver touch attacks through their familiars. Familial charm does not allow a save, and applies even before the scion’s actual birth (since the unborn scion is already intelligent and knowledgeable enough to have its own agenda).

So the description definitely defines which the template text should apply to. Obviously if one only look at the template text, the "creating an Unholy Scion" respectively, then by RAW you're correct, but it creates inconsistencies with the lore. This way of using templates is why in my opinion certain template combinations can get to redicolous and absurd levels.


As for Fiend of Blasphemy, I can't give you much advice. It's basically a caster class with some extra abilities, and you have to finish it to get all those abilities. Not much room for variation.
What about caster classes that get SLAs as part of the class progression? Or SLAs that can be obtained apart from class progression? The fiend of blasphemy would have good use of extra SLA's it can transfer to its devoted cultists.

[Tiri]

First of all, when quoting you'll have to use the entire sentence and everything relevant to the context, otherwise one can easily create a different meaning than the intended.

The EXACT quote is:
"Not all births that follow from the mating of an evil outsider and a mortal result in a half-fiend. If the female partner in such a union is impregnated in an area of high taint, the result is the unholy scion. An unholy scion can also be created when a fiend mentally possess an unborn child within the womb. In either case, it is a creature with fiendish power and malignance, all the more terrifying for its ability to pass as mortal."
Looking at the first part of the quote, its the last part that you omitted thats important thats important to its context. : "result in a half-fiend".. Which basically just means its not always not always it becomes a half-fiend. The next part of the quote goes into TWO other ways for an Unholy scion to be created. The first is due to HIGH TAINT and the other is when the unborn child is mentally possessed within the womb.

So by RAW and RAI this section describes that there are only three specific ways it can happen.
1: Mating with an evil outsider (where the evil outsider is a fiend, but this part have been omitted).
2: Impregnation happening in a HIGH taint area.
3: When a fiend possess the unborn child within the womb (until the child is born).

Constructs aren't the result of mating or impregnation, neither have they been in a womb. Which pretty much rules out the template for use with constructs.

All the ways you listed are ways an unholy scion can result from mating. They don't preclude the possibility of an unholy scion resulting from other means.


This quote:
"Unholy scions look like normal members of their mortal parent’s race, but they are subtly disturbing."
The quote definitely should make it even more obvious that this template is for living humanoids or animals, that have a mortal parent. And when connected with the whole context of the first quote it becomes quite obviously apparent that its intended for humanoids or animals that have been born by the female parent.

So, if the unholy scion lacked a mortal parent, it would simply look how any other elements of it dictate it should look.


Furthermore, supernatural ability Familial Charm clearly indicates that the Unholy Scion has a mother, this supports the above understanding of its description in relation to which it can be applied to.

Familial Charm (Su):An unholy scion’s mother is under a constant charm person or charm animal effect (as appropriate), generated by the scion. The mother might be aware that her actions are inappropriate, even that her child is evil, but she cannot shake her emotional devotion to it. The scion can switch between its own senses and its mother’s at will as a free action. The scion can use any of its spell-like abilities with its mother, rather than itself, as the source, much as wizards can deliver touch attacks through their familiars. Familial charm does not allow a save, and applies even before the scion’s actual birth (since the unborn scion is already intelligent and knowledgeable enough to have its own agenda).

That just means that if the unholy scion has a mother, the mother is charmed. If it doesn't have a mother, then obviously this is not the case. It doesn't give the unholy scion a mother by default.


So the description definitely defines which the template text should apply to. Obviously if one only look at the template text, the "creating an Unholy Scion" respectively, then by RAW you're correct, but it creates inconsistencies with the lore. This way of using templates is why in my opinion certain template combinations can get to redicolous and absurd levels.

There are actually no inconsistencies with the RAW. The lore is written such that it provides only for unholy scions with mortal parents, but it doesn't preclude one without such a parent. Therefore RAW and flavor text do not, in this instance, explicitly conflict.


What about caster classes that get SLAs as part of the class progression? Or SLAs that can be obtained apart from class progression? The fiend of blasphemy would have good use of extra SLA's it can transfer to its devoted cultists.

The only SLA-granting class I can think of that provides SLAs that affect the game substantially is Warlock, and with everything else you want to tack onto this creature you won't have the levels for its more potent abilities.

[Incarnate]

All the ways you listed are ways an unholy scion can result from mating. They don't preclude the possibility of an unholy scion resulting from other means.
Actually, its very specific, that the only way to become an Unholy Scion is from being born. The first part just states that when a mortal and fiend (evil outsider) mate it won't always result in a half-fiend, but in other cases it will result in an Unholy Scion. Every part of the description, even parts of the template supports that an unholy scion IS BORN as a result from mating.


So, if the unholy scion lacked a mortal parent, it would simply look how any other elements of it dictate it should look.
This isn't stated anywhere and isn't supported by the description, this is selective interpretation.




That just means that if the unholy scion has a mother, the mother is charmed. If it doesn't have a mother, then obviously this is not the case. It doesn't give the unholy scion a mother by default.
This isn't stated anywhere and isn't supported by the description, this is selective interpretation. Just because it isn't explicitly stated "it requires a mother" doesn't that they don't require a mother, but in fact a lot of places in the text it supports that a female parent/mother gives birth to the child, various places also support that an Unholy Scion has a parent. Interpreting it as you have is highly selective and inventive to make it seem plausible that its just as likely, even though NOTHING in the description suggests your interpretation to be correct. In fact every part of the written description supports what I'm writing, where you're using things that aren't written. I relate to facts and what they have written is fact, anything they haven't written becomes imaginary or inventive/selective interpretation.

1/ "Unholy scions look like normal members of their mortal parent’s race, but they are subtly disturbing".
2/ "The precise personality of the child depends on the nature of the fiend parent or possessor".

Several more quotes supports it has a parent or possessor, which both relates to a child being born.

You know, one of the main reasons why ridicolous and even absurd template combinations happen the most, because of creative/inventive interpretation and/or lack of reading the description.


There are actually no inconsistencies with the RAW. The lore is written such that it provides only for unholy scions with mortal parents, but it doesn't preclude one without such a parent. Therefore RAW and flavor text do not, in this instance, explicitly conflict.
Actually it does create inconsistencies, and from what you're saying then they should've written more explicitly, otherwise any example thats not in the description is just one that they haven't included.
Which again is selective interpretation, kind of like the same as this "it doesn't say I can't microwave dogs, so it must mean I can". Thats basically what you're saying, just because its not explicitly written that "This is the ONLY way Unholy Scions are created" then it means that there are other ways, even though the description doesn't support that interpretation.



The only SLA-granting class I can think of that provides SLAs that affect the game substantially is Warlock, and with everything else you want to tack onto this creature you won't have the levels for its more potent abilities.

Yes that was what I was thinking myself. It can still progress beyond level 20.

[Thurbane]

Could you re-fluff the Concordant Killer? You'd need to swap out some of his "good vs evil" abilities and make them "law vs. chaos"...

[the_david]

Am I the only one who remembers the Cathazar?

You might want to check out Bastion of Broken Souls.

[Tiri]

Could you re-fluff the Concordant Killer? You'd need to swap out some of his "good vs evil" abilities and make them "law vs. chaos"...

The Concordant Killer is already 'law vs chaos', though. It's just that they are also 'good vs evil'.

[Incarnate]

Could you re-fluff the Concordant Killer? You'd need to swap out some of his "good vs evil" abilities and make them "law vs. chaos"...

It's definitely a cool one, its just not what I'm looking for. Though I found it as a rebuilt racial monster class, that might be worth taking some levels in, it doesn't quite fit the lore I created for the villain.
Especially since it being a half-celestial + half-fiend, where my villain is supposed to be a half-demon/half-devil.


Am I the only one who remembers the Cathazar?

You might want to check out Bastion of Broken Souls.

Didn't know this one, a crossbreed between a Marilith and Kyton, interesting indeed. Thanks for reminding us ;)
This definitely supports my idea about it being half-demon & half-devil, using the half-fiend template twice.