How Did Deities Change From 3.x to PF?

[unseenmage]

Both mechanically and insofaras their execution/ relative raw power, how did deities change from 3.x to PF?

How would the Playground go about utilizing 3.x Deities and Demigods to ascend a party of PCs?

[legomaster00156]

Deities in PF are divided into demigods and true deities. Demigods give four domains and (usually) four subdomains, while true deities have five domains and (usually) four subdomains. Demigods tend to be Mythic Rank 10 and around CR 35-40. True deities are not statted out, because there is no means by which to truly kill them. There can be exceptions to this rule, but only one is known: Lamashtu, formerly a demon lord (one of the forms of demigod), managed to slay another god and steal their power, but this was only with the aid of a second demon lord, and it required an elaborate trap to pull off even then.

[Psyren]

Both mechanically and insofaras their execution/ relative raw power, how did deities change from 3.x to PF?

3.x is comprised of a multitude of settings, while PF has one official one (Golarion.) Which one are you trying to convert?


How would the Playground go about utilizing 3.x Deities and Demigods to ascend a party of PCs?

I'd probably start with Mythic and then slowly work in the Divine Rank stuff. Assuming you're doing this in Golarion though, you'd have to figure out how to stat out those deities, which would inevitably mean nerfing them (i.e. "if it has stats, it can be killed," which isn't really what Golarion was designed for.) Some divine abilities however are just too broken to let PCs use straight, like Alter Reality and Divine Senses (detect trouble weeks before it's even planned, what.)

Personally I would ascend them but then have them continue to adventure in some lesser form (e.g. Herald, Aspect or Avatar) so that they can still be challenged.

[Coidzor]

The biggest difference is that there's no levels above 20 in Pathfinder. Even with multiclassing.

[Ualaa]

Nothing stops you from adding more levels.
The same as nothing is stopping you from making your PCs into Demigods or full blown Deities.



Hero Lab extrapolates the experience table.
2.1 million for 21st
4.2 million for 22nd
8.4 million for 23rd.

Assuming you want to go with that, there's a pattern that's easy to detect/repeat.

[Calthropstu]

The biggest difference, is that deities do not have stats, as has already been mentioned. There IS the star stone challenge, which is the only known way to ascend, but Paizo has openly stated they have no intention of ever publishing the stats of deities.

They may publish a "test of the Starstone" adventure at some point, but I am willing to wager it will be more of a "And your character ascends, to become a Demigod free to wander the planes and place his mark on all the worlds" kind of ending. I sincerely doubt there will ever be a published god or even demigod's stats.

[legomaster00156]

It is highly unlikely that the Test of the Starstone will ever be a published dungeon, since it explicitly is a different place for everyone who takes the challenge.
I'll add that when using Mythic, it is possible to become, effectively, a demigod, by taking the path abilities that allow you to live forever, require no food, drink, sleep, or air, and that allow you to grant divine spells (up to level 9, with four domains and four subdomains).

[Echch]

I'd also say go Mythic. Deities in D&D have been an absolute mess since 2nd ed and Paizo did nothing to really fix "True Deities" either.

So yeah, go with the Demigods-thing, it's the closest and best you are gonna get.

[Calthropstu]

I'd also say go Mythic. Deities in D&D have been an absolute mess since 2nd ed and Paizo did nothing to really fix "True Deities" either.

So yeah, go with the Demigods-thing, it's the closest and best you are gonna get.

Deities should never have been statted in the first place in my opinion. They screwed up by printing Deities and Demigods. I wholeheartedly agree with Paizo's decision to never publish them.

[Coidzor]

That divisiveness just says it should be an optional subsystem, which in effect it was anyway, since the DM determines whether you can actually fight the gods or not anyway.

[Remuko]

Deities should never have been statted in the first place in my opinion. They screwed up by printing Deities and Demigods. I wholeheartedly agree with Paizo's decision to never publish them.


That divisiveness just says it should be an optional subsystem, which in effect it was anyway, since the DM determines whether you can actually fight the gods or not anyway.

Have to agree with Coidzor. One of my favorite D&D memories is when I was retiring one of my oldest characters and we did so by having him ascend to divinity by having a "to the death" battle with Kurtulmak. He won the 1v1 and while Kurtulmak didn't permanently die from the battle, he was forced to share divinity with my Kobold who became a good half for a Kobold mini-pantheon which would allow Kobolds to more freely choose not to be evil as they could pray to and be protected by my character.

[legomaster00156]

As I mentioned above, you can fight demigods in Pathfinder. These range from the Good empyreal lords, to LE archdevils, to CE demon lords and qlippoth lords. While extraordinarily powerful and hard to kill, they are ultimately mortal. It is only true deities (of which there are very few) that are unstattable. Of course, that doesn't stop a GM from being able to stat one themselves.

[Calthropstu]

As I mentioned above, you can fight demigods in Pathfinder. These range from the Good empyreal lords, to LE archdevils, to CE demon lords and qlippoth lords. While extraordinarily powerful and hard to kill, they are ultimately mortal. It is only true deities (of which there are very few) that are unstattable. Of course, that doesn't stop a GM from being able to stat one themselves.
I just recently took a look at the stats for the fallen god Lucifer. I cannot imagine many characters who could scratch him. Maybe a paladin smite could do it, but I cannot imagine many paladins lasting long enough to really threaten him.

Of course, it is actually all 3rd party material that lists any such stats.

[Echch]

Deities should never have been statted in the first place in my opinion. They screwed up by printing Deities and Demigods. I wholeheartedly agree with Paizo's decision to never publish them.

Personally, I loved the 1st ed deities. In my opinion, if you can't kill 'em, why have 'em? It's not like they have any function beyond what a very powerful mortal could do, especially when you consider Mythic.

[legomaster00156]

I just recently took a look at the stats for the fallen god Lucifer. I cannot imagine many characters who could scratch him. Maybe a paladin smite could do it, but I cannot imagine many paladins lasting long enough to really threaten him.

Of course, it is actually all 3rd party material that lists any such stats.
Try looking at the Paizo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/empyreal-lord) demigods (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords) that have been statted.

[Powerdork]

3.x is comprised of a multitude of settings, while PF has one official one (Golarion.) Which one are you trying to convert?

Late here, but I think you missed the point of the thread, which seems to be about the definitions of the term "deity", meaning entity capable of giving clerics spells and domains, rather than any specific form of Product Identity (Olidammara, Celestian etc.). How does your response change in light of that?

[Psyren]

Late here, but I think you missed the point of the thread, which seems to be about the definitions of the term "deity", meaning entity capable of giving clerics spells and domains, rather than any specific form of Product Identity (Olidammara, Celestian etc.). How does your response change in light of that?

I don't believe I did actually; OP was asking about mechanical representations of deities, which does change from setting to setting. In Greyhawk, deities are epic outsiders with divine ranks, salient abilities and other special rules. In FR, same thing, but with a few wrinkles added in the form of Ao (adding global rules to their political stew concerning portfolios, worshipers and the like) as well as the Weave and Shadow Weave, which have special rules of their own with mechanical impact to that setting, even for deities. In Eberron, they aren't statted at all because no one is even sure they exist at all, much less what powers they might have. In Golarion, they definitely exist, but aren't statted because the design philosophy is that they should only be killable by plot (and perhaps not even then.)

[Calthropstu]

Try looking at the Paizo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/empyreal-lord) demigods (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords) that have been statted.

Eh, I dunno... it SAYS they are "demigods" but I have always thought of Demon/Devil Lords and Empyreal Lords as just higher end angels and demons, not truly a divine entity in their own right.

And they are powerful, no argument about it here. But even having looked at all of them, I still have to say none of them hold a candle to Lucifer... which makes sense since at one point, Lucifer actually WAS a god, and held the position that Asmodeus does now.

[legomaster00156]

Well, seeing as they are, explicitly, demigods, this is exactly how powerful a demigod is in this game. As for Lucifer, that's not even Paizo.