Dragon Ball Super [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Lord Raziere

2016-11-27, 03:45 PM

Super is awesome. we're getting a lot expanded upon, we're getting character development for a lot of people not named Goku, and future Trunks finally getting a big win (heck ANYONE OTHER THAN GOKU getting a win) is something that should've happened for a long time, as well as expanding upon the godly structure of the universe. the fights themselves make more sense and don't drag out as much

Sure the Potara earrings being retconned will really mess with a lot of OC's people probably make, but they will probably just find a way to rewrite those to make them work anyways like suddenly revealing hidden Shin DNA or modifying the Potara Earrings themselves to be permanent for everyone, or something. while Zamasu is a perfect example of how powerful the Kais can actually be if they ever decided to go mad with power, using resources that all Kais have.

and overall, I like how its at the point where its pointing out the more one punch man/world of cardboard nature of Dragon Ball's current level of power. the characters are at the point where they must start better controlling their ki before it destroys everything, meaning their power has consequences beyond the fight itself and they must be careful about that.

not to say it is perfect, its not, but I don't focus on flaws.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-11-27, 03:51 PM

The show was awful until the future Trunks arc. That particular arc was excellent most of the way through...however, the ending of the Future Trunks arc was one of the worst handled things in any anime ever.

Honestly, I'm a huge Dragonball fan, but this show just isn't very good.

I'unno, I liked the Champa saga and the Future Trunks arc was great.

Gotta ask, cause I've seen this quite a bit, why was the ending mishandled?

Indarra

2016-11-27, 10:18 PM

Devonix

2016-11-27, 11:22 PM

Trunks uses a Genki-dama blade when he never learned the Genki-dama.
Also Vegito was promised to the fans and they wanted more than five minutes of him. This... Didn't happen.
But Vegita called himself the Saiyan Prince for the first time since the Buu arc, and that scene was exceptional.

Liked the spirit sword. It was a nicely emotional scene. Didn't think it needed some training arc just for him to have the spirits of a world about to die to join with him and help out.

Having a time limit for Vegito opens up the character for use later on in the series, where without the timelimit it would be difficult to fit him in the story.

Indarra

2016-11-27, 11:55 PM

I don't know if people were upset about the time limit of an hour so much as the time limit becoming like six minutes.

Lord Raziere

2016-11-28, 12:33 AM

I don't know if people were upset about the time limit of an hour so much as the time limit becoming like six minutes.

*shrug* its a well-established fact since the Buu Saga that transformations while fused shorten the time that the fusion lasts due to using more energy. Gotenks has demonstrated it more than once. Super is just being consistent to that. If people have problems with that, then they just plain have problems with powers making sense with their limitations when you start pushing those limits.

Again, the most problems that the Potara Retcon does is make Vegitto fans mad that he got nerfed, and make some people have to rewrite perma-fused OC backstories a little.

Devonix

2016-11-28, 09:08 AM

*shrug* its a well-established fact since the Buu Saga that transformations while fused shorten the time that the fusion lasts due to using more energy. Gotenks has demonstrated it more than once. Super is just being consistent to that. If people have problems with that, then they just plain have problems with powers making sense with their limitations when you start pushing those limits.

Again, the most problems that the Potara Retcon does is make Vegitto fans mad that he got nerfed, and make some people have to rewrite perma-fused OC backstories a little.

Exactly, and everyone had to know that the Potara fusion couldn't be permanent. Unless they expected Vegito to become the new main character of the series. By adding a time limit the form became subject to the same rules all other super forms were subject to. That being, additional transformations drain power and end them faster.

Vegito= One hour SSjBlue Vegito= half hour SSjBlue expending all of his energy into a big attack = Times up.

Akisa

2016-11-28, 02:15 PM

Exactly, and everyone had to know that the Potara fusion couldn't be permanent. Unless they expected Vegito to become the new main character of the series. By adding a time limit the form became subject to the same rules all other super forms were subject to. That being, additional transformations drain power and end them faster.

Vegito= One hour SSjBlue Vegito= half hour SSjBlue expending all of his energy into a big attack = Times up.

Personally I would've gone with Zamasu learned of a way to defuse Vegito that took sometime to work to allow screen time with Vegito fighting, if they wanted to keep Vegito non permanente.

Devonix

2016-11-28, 06:47 PM

Personally I would've gone with Zamasu learned of a way to defuse Vegito that took sometime to work to allow screen time with Vegito fighting, if they wanted to keep Vegito non permanente.

Yeah but then you'd still be stuck with the problem of Vegito being someone they can't use anymore in the series. Since the next time they use him they'd have to come up with another reason for him to Defuse.

Vegito's defused every time he's shown up, and now we have a reason. So it will make sense to people when he defuses next time. Because we all know he's going to be showing up again.

Anteros

2016-11-29, 02:23 AM

I'unno, I liked the Champa saga and the Future Trunks arc was great.

Gotta ask, cause I've seen this quite a bit, why was the ending mishandled?

I'm not gonna bother with spoilers here since the thread is already full of them.

I don't care that Vegetto being permanent got ret-conned, or that Trunks knows the spirit bomb (seriously, Gohan trained him, and Gohan has seen it plenty of times). What bothers me is the pacing and the direction of the plot itself.

They finally defeat Zamasu, and then he's suddenly a cloud thing with no explanation, and way more powerful than before. They spent 10 episodes building up all these characters in Trunks' world, and then killed them off panel forever with barely a mention. There's no consequence to these deaths either because the cast goes to the past and we immediately segue into Goku and Vegeta laughing with their families, and stupid gags about the Omni king. Trunks being upset about everyone he knows and loves dying gets like 15 seconds of screen time, and then he decides to go live with a copy of everyone he let die for no compelling reason.

I can understand wanting to have an arc end on a darker tone, but the way they handled it completely subverted any weight or impact of what they were going for. They may as well have just turned everyone into tang for all the sense it made.

Plus, there was literally no reason for the entire arc to exist. Trunks could have literally just taken the time machine to some random timeline and never fought Zamasu at all and the ending would be exactly the same. The entire thing was completely pointless.

Indarra

2016-11-30, 12:25 PM

Well now Trunks is powerful enough to participate in the Omniversal tournament.
I'm hoping Vegeta will defeat Hit. Him or Gohan, though Gohan will need at least a few episodes of catch-up.

Kato

2016-12-03, 07:46 AM

Didn't we have a thread for this already? :smallconfused:

Eh, I'm mostly fine with the new show... But there are just some issues with the latest arc I can't get over... like Trunks being anywhere close to SSJ Blue levels in power.. He didn't even get anywhere around Perfect Cell last time we checked. Maybe he kept working on it but... And I don't so much mind him using a Genkidama Sword, I mind a Genkidama that should be clearly weaker than the one used against Buu defeating Zamasu. Just... HOW?!
Now, I know, we really shouldn't think too much about power levels and how a SSJ Blue Vegito should crush the planet by stepping on it but I can't help being bothered by it.

Though, overall the last arc was fun enough, even if the ending was a bit strange. (And nobody gave us Beerus vs Zamasu. ****s.

Latest episode... I like it when they insert funny episodes like this but... this one seemed a bit too silly at times. So... Bulma is paying for Roshi's hookers? Er, escorts, I guess. Why do you even care? Tell the guy to go become a decent person :smalltongue:

JadedDM

2016-12-04, 04:16 PM

Re: Episode 69

What the HFIL did I just watch? :smalleek:

Rater202

2016-12-04, 05:13 PM

Re: Episode 69

What the HFIL did I just watch? :smalleek:

Before Dragon Ball, Akira Toriyama wrote a gag-manga called Doctor Slump. Originally meant to be about the adventures of the little short ugly guy whose name I can't seem to remember, the scientist, the side character Arale-chan,and android created by the Doctor, soon took center stage.

Arale was constructed, more or less because the doctor could make her. She is quite simply his greatest creation, with super human speed and strength, a genius intellect, and low level reality warping abilities--or, in other words, she runs on toon physics. This is in addition to being ridiculously powerful.

Doctor Slump kinda sorta shares a world with Dragon Ball, and towards the End of the General Blue Saga in the Red Ribbon Army Arc, Goku and general Blue found their way into Penguin Village and meeting with Arale and her cast.(General Blue freaks out at how weird everything is--"That poop has a face!")

This crossover ended with Arale helping Goku defeat General Blue and showing her as being much stronger than Goku was at the time, and Goku said, before leaving to continue his adventure, that when he was as strong as she was, he'd come back and they'd fight for fun.

You just watched that dangling plot thread finally get resolved after being left hanging back in the 80s.

Kato

2016-12-05, 07:36 AM

You just watched that dangling plot thread finally get resolved after being left hanging back in the 80s.

I actually give the creators credit for that...

I liked the episode. I liked how Vegeta apparently has developed genre awareness, or how really nothing in this episode was to be taken serious. Just like Slump.
I kind of expected there to be a huge amount of food to be created but I guess this works too (?). Too bad they... just made poop.... (who the **** has a great desire for that?)

Also: So, was it intentional there were like five journalists and twenty guests in general for the award to the greatest scientist of the year? Or budget restraints?

Akisa

2016-12-06, 08:36 AM

Yeah but then you'd still be stuck with the problem of Vegito being someone they can't use anymore in the series. Since the next time they use him they'd have to come up with another reason for him to Defuse.

Vegito's defused every time he's shown up, and now we have a reason. So it will make sense to people when he defuses next time. Because we all know he's going to be showing up again.

Not true they would only need to learn the technique to unfuse, after that can fuse ro become Vegito whenever they wish.

Devonix

2016-12-06, 09:15 AM

Not true they would only need to learn the technique to unfuse, after that can fuse ro become Vegito whenever they wish.

It would make it too easy and remove the tension. It's why at least for me, the various super forms got boring once all of the drawbacks got removed. Such as SSBlue having no drawbacks. The old SS form not burning through power. It's why I'm glad Kaio Ken got brought back.

Anteros

2016-12-06, 11:41 AM

It would make it too easy and remove the tension. It's why at least for me, the various super forms got boring once all of the drawbacks got removed. Such as SSBlue having no drawbacks. The old SS form not burning through power. It's why I'm glad Kaio Ken got brought back.

If it makes you feel better, the Manga says that he Blue transformation takes an enormous amount of energy and the only reason Vegeta lost to Hitt was because he already went Blue against Cabba and only had about 10% of his power left in the tank.

Lord Raziere

2016-12-07, 01:40 AM

If it makes you feel better, the Manga says that he Blue transformation takes an enormous amount of energy and the only reason Vegeta lost to Hitt was because he already went Blue against Cabba and only had about 10% of his power left in the tank.

Yeah, it takes a lot of power to turn off and on. The form itself is energy efficient but the activation and deactivation isn't.

While Fission.....technically they would just need to ask Piccolo how to do that. Kami was the one who did the Fission technique that created Piccolo after all. Since Piccolo fused with Kami....he technically IS Kami and knows how to do that. He just apparently likes the way he is now.

Mato

2016-12-11, 11:04 AM

I think TFS wrote Yamcha's parts in the baseball episode.

Indarra

2016-12-11, 03:09 PM

Yeah, it takes a lot of power to turn off and on. The form itself is energy efficient but the activation and deactivation isn't.

That really doesn't add up with most of the action scenes in the next arc in which Getes and Goku use Blue multiple times to similar effects.

Including what I think are the most hilarious moments of this most recent episode, in which Goku went Super Saiyan Blue to play baseball... and then Vegeta did, too. Honestly those transformation moments were the most hilarious parts of Dragon Ball Super yet to me. Felt a little bit like a LittleKurriboh moment.

"I'm going to have to go at my max power to defeat you at a children's card game" type thing.

Lord Raziere

2016-12-11, 03:15 PM

I think TFS wrote Yamcha's parts in the baseball episode.

Judging by MasakoX's reaction in his review? No they didn't, because he was squeeing about it the entire time that Yamcha Finally Gets To Do A Thing.

Anteros

2016-12-11, 10:26 PM

I have to say that this Baseball episode was a breath of fresh air. After how awful the 4 or so episodes preceding it were I was ready to drop the series, but this episode was fantastic.

Starwulf

2016-12-12, 02:20 AM

So, I heard from a buddy who pays attention to these kinds of things, that Toonami(Adult Swim specifically) is going to start airing an English Dubbed version of DBS starting this upcoming January. Has anyone else heard anything about this? I'm really, really hoping it's true, very much looking forward to it :)

JadedDM

2016-12-12, 12:18 PM

I enjoyed the baseball episode, especially the callback to Yamcha's death at the end there, which made me laugh out loud. But the animation was just...terrible. I've noticed it's quality seems to fluctuate wildly these days, sometimes even within the same scene. It's very jarring. It would be one thing if this was some minor, indie series with little budget. But this is a Dragonball series. You'd think the animation quality would be higher overall.

Fri

2016-12-12, 12:38 PM

I haven't watch dbs, but it's more common than you thought. Basically, even AAA show outsource their animation (mostly in-betweener, that is the 22 frames between the first and last frames in a second) to outside studio, and often overseas. They only use their expensive in-house studio on important or eye-catching episodes. That's why it's common to even shows like Gundam to have badly drawn episodes even now. This is the commonly used setup, and studio who don't use this system is the exception.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-12-12, 02:09 PM

If it makes you feel better, the Manga says that he Blue transformation takes an enormous amount of energy and the only reason Vegeta lost to Hitt was because he already went Blue against Cabba and only had about 10% of his power left in the tank.

The manga is very wrong then about Vegeta being able to defeat Hit. Vegeta has nothing comparable to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 in his arsenal (and if he does, its likely very lethal to his enemy) and Hit was still beating Goku by the end of that fight despite being limited to non-lethal techniques.

Anteros

2016-12-12, 03:48 PM

The manga is very wrong then about Vegeta being able to defeat Hit. Vegeta has nothing comparable to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10 in his arsenal (and if he does, its likely very lethal to his enemy) and Hit was still beating Goku by the end of that fight despite being limited to non-lethal techniques.

I don't think you can say that. Neither the Manga or the show is officially canon over the other. Further, Toriyama has much closer control over the Manga than the show, so if you were going to pick one to go by...

What's more likely is that the anime team thought ssbkk would be cool so they threw it in with no regard to the fact that it completely screwed the scaling for the rest of the series. The manga didn't used ssbkk at all, and Goku completely overwhelmed Hitt as soon as he went blue.

Honestly the Manga is way more coherent and consistent than the show overall in my opinion, but it's left open for people to decide which they prefer.

The Troubadour

2016-12-12, 04:16 PM

Honestly the Manga is way more coherent and consistent than the show overall in my opinion, but it's left open for people to decide which they prefer.

They're both very inconsistent. Then again, the original "Dragon Ball" also tended to be very inconsistent, so eh.

Anteros

2016-12-12, 04:22 PM

They're both very inconsistent. Then again, the original "Dragon Ball" also tended to be very inconsistent, so eh.

Can you point me to an example of the manga being inconsistent? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't think of any off the top of my head.

Frozen_Feet

2016-12-12, 05:28 PM

How about everything moon related?

Or what happened to Lunch, Oolong etc.?

Or whether turning big & muscular slows you down?

Or how Goku & Co are clearly superhuman in strength from the get go but somehow 10 g of gravity is a problem, or getting rid of a few dozen kilos of training equipment gives them a speed boost?

Anteros

2016-12-12, 05:53 PM

Lurkmoar

2016-12-12, 06:21 PM

How about everything moon related?

Or what happened to Lunch, Oolong etc.?

I can't speak for Oolong, but with Lunch, Akira Toriyama flat out forgot her. I can't imagine her doing much of anything in Z or Super except provide color commentary, and there's already tons of characters for that.

Frozen_Feet

2016-12-12, 06:43 PM

None of that has much to do with Super.

I thought you were asking about the original manga. But as far as Super goes... don't think too hard of how the protagonists somehow had any trouble lifting or hurting that robot guy.

Psyren

2016-12-12, 07:11 PM

Speaking of Yamcha:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/a-new-dragon-ball-spinoff-imagines-a-world-where-yamcha-1790006518

Anteros

2016-12-13, 12:23 AM

I thought you were asking about the original manga. But as far as Super goes... don't think too hard of how the protagonists somehow had any trouble lifting or hurting that robot guy.

Vegeta was toying with him for the entire fight. I don't see any problems with that honestly. It's entirely in character.

Besides, I'm sure we can dig out plenty of things that don't make sense in all variations of Dragonball, but I was talking about being internally consistent.

Oolong is still around btw.

Lord Raziere

2016-12-13, 05:44 AM

I thought you were asking about the original manga. But as far as Super goes... don't think too hard of how the protagonists somehow had any trouble lifting or hurting that robot guy.

This is a universe where Gero can make robots stronger than galactic overlords in a cave with a box of scrap without any clear funding, Bulma can create time machines that are greater than the ones made by the Gods themselves, some alien guy who lives in a japanese style temple on a floating island in space somehow knows literally everything including things that should be secret and its never explained how, and yet the actual galactic defender uses a gun despite it being incredibly clear how inferior it is to even normal ki-blasts of someone trained properly, a universe where people constantly witness side-effects and collateral damage of titanic battles but don't investigate into it because some martial arts dude with an afro is just that charismatic, and the five biggest threats to all of existence are:
-two Egyptian food-obsessed cats
-a simple minded country bumpkin from another planet who likes fighting
-a pink fat manchild made of goo
-a lonely child who destroys universes if he sees something that annoys him
(Yes Beerus, Champa, Goku, Buu and Zeno are the biggest threats to all of existence. Beerus and Champa threaten to destroy two universes every time they start arguing, Goku's fight with Beerus would've destroyed the universe if he didn't control his ki in time, Buu is foolish enough to start that fight by denying food to the God of Destruction, and Zeno has incredibly disproportionate reactions to the problems presented to him. All the actual villains who could make this list are either dead (Golden Freeza) or got "retroactively never existed" away (Merged Zamasu))

We're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay past the point where we think hard about anything or find any of this ridiculous. If a blonde cyborg teenager with attitude can take out a super-saiyan prince who has been fighting his entire life, a lava-powered pseudobot alien can tank Vegeta's hits. It just goes to show that Toriyama laughs at all our assumptions and so makes an alien specifically to challenge our assumptions of how fights in Dragon Ball can be and maybe there can be other paths to power and that this is canonical. Yet the usual nerd response is just to write it off as being inconsistent, when its so clearly intended to make us go "wait.....maybe he is different and not the same for a reason." like people complain that all the fights in Dragon Ball are the same, yet we get fighters like Botamo and Magetta who are not like any foes we ever seen before and fight and challenge the strongest people in the series in unusual ways and no one makes any note of it.

You see something to go "don't think too hard about it" I see it as invitation to say "hey, maybe the Dragon Ball universe is wider than I give it credit for, and home to more possibilities than I realized, lets change our assumptions to fit this new information."

Frozen_Feet

2016-12-13, 05:53 AM

Lord Raziere

2016-12-13, 06:14 AM

There's a difference between adjusting your assumptions based on new information, and denying that the new information is contradictory with the old. When it comes to Toriyama and the Dragon Ball universe, it's pretty clear at some points he just forgot stuff or didn't think them through himself; there's no hidden brilliance to it, so no credit is due. :smalltongue:

Magetta is a completely new thing. There is nothing to contradict. He is a race of beings we're just learning about right then, and has logical reasons why his race didn't say, defeat Freeza in Universe 7: they can't fly and break down crying when you insult them even slightly. Yet at the same time, has strange nigh-impervious skin, creative attacks and an unusual advantage with his heat output. I don't see any problem. Vegeta taking so long to insult him is notable, but he has noticeably grown away from being a total egomaniacal jerk about everything, which is a good thing. anything else is just nitpicking or bringing physics (in Dragon Ball? THATS HILARIOUS!) into the discussion. Which is like bringing up that your a dentist at a Halloween party to be honest. :smalltongue::smalltongue:

The Troubadour

2016-12-13, 09:34 AM

None of that has much to do with Super.

Well, if we're talking about "Super" in general - as in, things which apply to both anime and manga -, we have things like the retcon that Beerus asked Freeza to destroy the Saiyans, for example, or Goku and Vegeta training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber when Vegeta had already reached the limit of two days. The first one could be seen as simply an expansion on old information, but back in the original manga, we had plenty of scenes establishing Freeza took that decision himself because he was worried about the Saiyans growing in power and ousting him; as for the second, the time limit for staying in the Time Chamber had been presented as a hard limit unrelated to the person's power level back in the original manga, so it's not something that can be explained by "they got stronger and now they can handle it for longer".

If we're talking about the "Super" manga specifically, we have things like:
- Piccolo being fully willing to fight Beerus and having to be told by Vegeta that Beerus is a god, when it was already established in Kaioshin's introduction that Piccolo can sense godhood in others;
- Goku actually being angry - not just "disappointed", but "pissed off" - Gohan isn't fighting anymore;
- Magetta weighs over 1.000 ton (I don't know if the anime gives such an exact number, but the manga does), and yet Vegeta in Super Saiyan form can't lift him? Honestly, considering some of the feats of strength displayed in the series since all the way back from the pre-Saiyan sagas, I wouldn't be surprised if Vegeta could lift 1.000 tons even without using ki;
- in the manga, Goku took his sweet time to reach a form more powerful than Hit (the basic Super Saiyan God one). Well, Hit is a pragmatic fighter - why would he not have gone all-out from the start? With the huge difference in base power, not to mention his time leap technique, he should have defeated Goku long before the latter even turned Super Saiyan.

Trunks uses a Genki-dama blade when he never learned the Genki-dama.

Goku learned to read minds without even knowing how. I don't mean this as a "oh, you can't complay about this ridiculous thing because of that other ridiculous thing", but both seem like an example of characters reaching a higher level of power / enlightenment and learning new abilities. It's the kind of wuxia logic which wouldn't seem out of place in this series, infrequently though it may be used.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-12-13, 10:30 AM

I don't think you can say that. Neither the Manga or the show is officially canon over the other. Further, Toriyama has much closer control over the Manga than the show, so if you were going to pick one to go by...

What's more likely is that the anime team thought ssbkk would be cool so they threw it in with no regard to the fact that it completely screwed the scaling for the rest of the series. The manga didn't used ssbkk at all, and Goku completely overwhelmed Hitt as soon as he went blue.

Sure I can, the show is the base material in this very peculiar instance. If the manga changes something, and it has, than its the one you are meant to take with a grain of salt cause it has changed the base material...for whatever purpose.

Case and point? The arc coming up in the very next episode makes a whole ton less sense if Goku can just overwhelm Hit with Super Saiyan Blue. The threat of the assasination comes from the fact Goku couldn't decisively defeat Hit in the tournament and that Hit had both progressed past SSBKK and still wasn't able to use his killing techniques. Heck, without SSBKK, Goju has no reason to have the realization that he's getting old and he needs to think about what he's going to do with his life if/once he can't fight anymore. And that's a pretty huge realization for Goku to have! And third, it doesn't screw with the power scaling AT ALL, it was used to establish how dangerous a major antagonist really is.

And considering the anime IS the base material, it isn't 'animators threw it in because they thought it would be cool', its 'the manga writers took it out because they thought it would be cool' and ended up messing things up.

I can say all of that stuff! Am I right? That's the real question.

Rater202

2016-12-13, 11:24 AM

I'd like to note that Trunks's "Genki Dama Sword" is never actually said to have anything to do with the Spirit Bomb.

It's channeling the hopesand dreams of the people he's protecting, Yes? Not ki they've given to him, so if anything it's more like the Super Saiyan God Form--channeling conceptual stuff to make real power.

Anteros

2016-12-14, 12:06 AM

Sure I can, the show is the base material in this very peculiar instance. If the manga changes something, and it has, than its the one you are meant to take with a grain of salt cause it has changed the base material...for whatever purpose.

Case and point? The arc coming up in the very next episode makes a whole ton less sense if Goku can just overwhelm Hit with Super Saiyan Blue. The threat of the assasination comes from the fact Goku couldn't decisively defeat Hit in the tournament and that Hit had both progressed past SSBKK and still wasn't able to use his killing techniques. Heck, without SSBKK, Goju has no reason to have the realization that he's getting old and he needs to think about what he's going to do with his life if/once he can't fight anymore. And that's a pretty huge realization for Goku to have! And third, it doesn't screw with the power scaling AT ALL, it was used to establish how dangerous a major antagonist really is.

And considering the anime IS the base material, it isn't 'animators threw it in because they thought it would be cool', its 'the manga writers took it out because they thought it would be cool' and ended up messing things up.

I can say all of that stuff! Am I right? That's the real question.

Well the manga is scheduled to be ahead of the manga within the next few months, so I don't know that you can really consider the anime the base. Neither the anime nor the manga is the base. Toriyama gives them both notes and they write from there.

Also, the Hiit stuff is filler, so meh.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-12-14, 02:37 AM

Well the manga is scheduled to be ahead of the manga within the next few months, so I don't know that you can really consider the anime the base. Neither the anime nor the manga is the base. Toriyama gives them both notes and they write from there.

Also, the Hiit stuff is filler, so meh.

...Dragon Ball Super is literally made as an anime first with the manga adaptation secondly. How is the anime not the base? That is literally a point of contention for plenty of fans that the manga changes stuff from the show because the show is coming first.

And...what stuff with Hit is filler? Actually unsure what you mean by that. If you mean the Universe 6 tournament then...uhh...that was a full on arc.

...as is Hit's assasination contract on Goku, that is the next arc. How is either filler? Or is there something else with Hit that I'm missing.

Anteros

2016-12-14, 03:57 AM

So when the manga passes the anime up in a few months will you consider it the base? They are two separate works taking notes from Toriyama. Neither is based off the other, they are both based off Toriyama's notes.

As for Hiit.

NOTE: This seems to be the beginning of a Toei original arc, perhaps a short one, perhaps one going as long as the Garlic Jr. arc. We just don't know.
The new Toriyama arc is supposed to be announced at Jump Festa December 17-18,* but as the Trunks arc was announced well in advance, we should expect the same for the new Toriyama arc.

It's filler.

Monica69

2016-12-14, 06:04 AM

What a bummer. I thought that Hit is returning for a new arc that will also be covered in the manga. If it is a filler then I am expecting only 5 episodes and nothing more. Shame. :/

The Troubadour

2016-12-14, 08:53 AM

So when the manga passes the anime up in a few months will you consider it the base? They are two separate works taking notes from Toriyama. Neither is based off the other, they are both based off Toriyama's notes.

They may both be based off Toriyama's notes, but at the very least the anime is the more complete adaptation - the manga skips plenty of scenes, and even whole arcs (like Freeza's return).

Indarra

2016-12-14, 01:36 PM

Adele vs Goku was a filler episode.
An arc or mini-arc is not a filler episode just because it's not also going into the Manga.

Callos_DeTerran

2016-12-14, 04:15 PM

So when the manga passes the anime up in a few months will you consider it the base? They are two separate works taking notes from Toriyama. Neither is based off the other, they are both based off Toriyama's notes.

As for Hiit.

It's filler.

Nope! Cause when it happens the other way around, y'know what that's called? Filler. :smalltongue:

As for Hit: That's...not...filler? That's just the next arc/mini-arc. Just because its not straight from Toriyama doesn't make it filler.

They may both be based off Toriyama's notes, but at the very least the anime is the more complete adaptation - the manga skips plenty of scenes, and even whole arcs (like Freeza's return).

Also this.

Anteros

2016-12-14, 06:34 PM

Adele vs Goku was a filler episode.
An arc or mini-arc is not a filler episode just because it's not also going into the Manga.

No, it's filler because it doesn't come from the author and only exists to pad out space.

Nope! Cause when it happens the other way around, y'know what that's called? Filler. :smalltongue:

As for Hit: That's...not...filler? That's just the next arc/mini-arc. Just because its not straight from Toriyama doesn't make it filler.

Also this.

It is an arc written by a third party to fill space until the actual author can release his next arc. That is the literal definition of filler.

What a bummer. I thought that Hit is returning for a new arc that will also be covered in the manga. If it is a filler then I am expecting only 5 episodes and nothing more. Shame. :/

It's looking like it will be about 2 or 3 episodes.

They may both be based off Toriyama's notes, but at the very least the anime is the more complete adaptation - the manga skips plenty of scenes, and even whole arcs (like Freeza's return).

That's fair, and I can understand someone preferring the anime for that reason. The same can be said in reverse as well though. Such as the manga fleshing out Trunks' struggle against Buu.

Mato

2016-12-16, 03:45 PM

The Troubadour

2016-12-16, 04:20 PM

Honestly, the only post-"Z" content I would consider canon are the two movies, "Battle of the Gods" and "Resurrection of Freeza"; everything else may have been based off Toriyama's notes, but it wasn't written directly by him.

Anteros

2016-12-16, 08:56 PM

It doesn't matter if you call it filler or not.

If this were a western comic you'd call it 1,001% official content because DC slapped their logo on it. Super's plots, "filler", character interactions, fight scenes, dialogue, etc are assumed to be based off hastily written notes from Toriyama and expanded out by other writers but you know what? So was the outword tournament where Pikkon makes an appearance and a large chunk of GT.

All you're doing is drawing a line in the sand and demanding everyone else treats your opinion as the official rule. And spoiler alert, I know for a fact I'll never agree to it and realistically I will never expect anyone else to either.

I actually don't give two flips what you agree to. Words have certain socially accepted definitions, and I'm using those definitions when I speak about things. If you want to ignore them in favor of your own personal opinion? Fine. No one cares.

But don't sit there and claim a word suddenly has a completely different definition from the way it has been used for the last 30 years just because it doesn't support your opinion.

Honestly, the only post-"Z" content I would consider canon are the two movies, "Battle of the Gods" and "Resurrection of Freeza"; everything else may have been based off Toriyama's notes, but it wasn't written directly by him.

Ironically enough, the two movies are the only things he's explicitly declared as non-canon. At least as far as I know.

The Troubadour

2016-12-17, 11:34 AM

Ironically enough, the two movies are the only things he's explicitly declared as non-canon. At least as far as I know.

Really? I wonder why. Do you have the exact quote somewhere?

Anteros

2016-12-17, 02:26 PM

Really? I wonder why. Do you have the exact quote somewhere?

No, sorry. That was actually something I just read on Reddit quite some time ago so I'm actually not even sure if it was a direct quote or just someone saying it and I took it as fact. I could easily be wrong about it.

JadedDM

2016-12-17, 02:58 PM

Aren't all of the previous movies considered non-cannon? I would assume that rule would apply to the new ones, too, wouldn't it?

Callos_DeTerran

2016-12-17, 04:05 PM

Aren't all of the previous movies considered non-cannon? I would assume that rule would apply to the new ones, too, wouldn't it?

I heard it was the other way around...all the previous movies were non-canon but Battle of the Gods and Resurreaction of F were...in part because they became the first two arcs of Super...or are the movies non-canon because you're supposed to use the Super interpetations of events...?

Starwulf

2016-12-17, 10:45 PM

https://www.inverse.com/article/24895-dragon-ball-super-toonami For those like me who haven't been able to watch it yet, this is great news :) DBS will air on Toonami starting Jan 7th! Woot Woot!

Dragonus45

2016-12-18, 12:15 AM

I heard it was the other way around...all the previous movies were non-canon but Battle of the Gods and Resurreaction of F were...in part because they became the first two arcs of Super...or are the movies non-canon because you're supposed to use the Super interpetations of events...?

My understanding is that all of the movies take place in something like their own canon and that Battle of the Gods and Resurrection of F were at one point the official continuations of the main series, but now it Super is the official take on the way things happened.

HolyDraconus

2016-12-18, 03:54 AM

My understanding is that all of the movies take place in something like their own canon and that Battle of the Gods and Resurrection of F were at one point the official continuations of the main series, but now it Super is the official take on the way things happened.

The movies BoG and RoF are technically still canon. It's just that when Super retreaded them, they had more leeway to elaborate more about them then being confined to a 2 hour block. At this point consider the movies the post-it versions.

The Troubadour

2016-12-18, 07:01 AM

Aren't all of the previous movies considered non-cannon? I would assume that rule would apply to the new ones, too, wouldn't it?

That's because none of the old ones were written by Toriyama (although at least one - the fifth movie, the one with Cooler's first appearance - used Toriyama's character designs, and Toriyama apparently liked the Bardock special so much he included a shot of it in the manga); "Battle of the Gods" and "Resurrection of Freeza" were.

Indarra

2016-12-18, 10:02 AM

Gohan defeat Hit.
Gohan defeat Hit.
Do iiiiiiit

Lord Raziere

2016-12-18, 02:33 PM

Gohan defeat Hit.
Gohan defeat Hit.
Do iiiiiiit

I wouldn't place my bets on it. I'd place better odds on Vegeta getting the chance or Goku just coming back and defeating Hit. But then again we got an Arale-sode and a Yamcha-sode, and Future Trunks getting a big defeat moment all on his own. So maybe Gohan will get this arc as a time to shine. Maybe. Assuming he doesn't end up Getting Nothing Done like the last time he became the strongest being in the universe.

Anteros

2016-12-19, 02:13 PM

It'll be Goku. This is still Dragonball after all.

Indarra

2016-12-20, 06:30 AM

Kato

2016-12-20, 11:52 AM

Goku hasn't won a major battle since Buu. He has defeated Winnie the Pooh and won two stakes-less sparring matches (one with Zamasu and one with Trunks). Beerus beat him, he lost to Hit, didn't defeat Zamasu or Black, and Vegeta *defeated* Freeza.

Hardly... he may not have won against Beerus, but he was the first in forever to give him a challenge and thus he calmed him down. Basically the same with Hit. He was the one who caused him to surrended since Goku did the same. And Freeza basically had lost to Goku. Yeah, Vegeta likely could have also beat him on his own but Goku didn't relly "lose" to him.

Mato

2016-12-20, 02:57 PM

Goku hasn't won a major battle since Buu.Well yeah, if you ignore how BoG's Goku could have creamed Beerus as a SSj3G, how he was chillaxing and planning for Vegeta to have some fun and still ended up killing Frieza anyway, he beat Botamo, could of easily won against Hit (manga) he if wasn't trying to get a decent fight going and decided to throw the fight for moral reasons, he did directly beat jello Vegata, and beat Black back several times, Goku hasn't "won" a single fight since Buu. :smallannoyed:

Maybe the next arc will cave into the fans so we can get another series of boring unexplained asspulls on tertiary characters defeating bland villains and Goku can continue his losing streak. :smallbiggrin:

Lord Raziere

2016-12-20, 06:35 PM

Well yeah, if you ignore how BoG's Goku could have creamed Beerus as a SSj3G, how he was chillaxing and planning for Vegeta to have some fun and still ended up killing Frieza anyway, he beat Botamo, could of easily won against Hit (manga) he if wasn't trying to get a decent fight going and decided to throw the fight for moral reasons, he did directly beat jello Vegata, and beat Black back several times, Goku hasn't "won" a single fight since Buu. :smallannoyed:

.....I don't think thats how the SSJ progression works. I think its more like "there is no SS3 blue" rather than him being able to go in that form at any time. Its more like BoG was the peak above SS3, and there is no such thing as a God SS3, because SS3 is an impractical, energy-guzzling form that has never solved anything ever. Every time it was used against Buu it only made things worse, and didn't beat him at all. Ss3 is basically Trunk's Super Saiyan 3rd grade form but trading bulkiness for lots of hair.

Second, he lost because Freeza planned ahead, that wasn't a tournament fight. that was Freeza getting revenge at any cost, and Goku losing because a guy shot him in the back with a normal laser is a BIG loss for him and big demonstration of his character flaw. and he only killed Freeza at all because Whis felt like rewinding time. when you require whats basically a deus ex machina from of the most godlike characters in the series to fix your mistake, you've lost. If Whis and Beerus weren't there, Freeza would be alive and have gotten his revenge. I hardly call Resurrection of F a victory for anyone. Mostly because how Resurrection of F is how much all the characters involved and the attitudes and mindsets they have acquired about these battles and the Dragon Balls led to the planet being blown up.

no one cares about Jello Vegeta. He is just Vegeta, Goku winning against him is old hat. beat Black back several times? I only saw Goku getting his ass beat even when powered up by his rage over the death of his family.

The Troubadour

2016-12-20, 09:02 PM

Yeah, Super Saiyan Blue 3 seems like a hell of a stretch. That said, let's not be unfair to Super Saiyan 3: SS3!Goku would have defeated Fat Buu if he didn't think the Earth needed to stop relying on him (what with him being dead at the time), and if we count the movies, it was SS3!Goku which defeated Hildegarn.

And yeah, Freeza won - even with the grievous miscalculation about his Golden form.

beat Black back several times?

He did. The issue with Black is that he was using Protagonist Power against the protagonists: he kept increasing in power and gaining new abilities as he needed to deal with the situation.

That said, I disagree Goku didn't win any major battle since Buu (which was more of a team effort anyway): he was clearly the MVP in the fight against Beerus, which I think should count as a victory; he was the only one who could fight Hit, and it was only because of him that Hit threw the fight; and he was the one who ultimately defeated Zamasu, even if he needed to call in the King of Everything.

Xihirli

2016-12-20, 09:22 PM

Lord Raziere

2016-12-21, 12:36 AM

and he was the one who ultimately defeated Zamasu, even if he needed to call in the King of Everything.

Nope, that was Future Trunks win. Goku gets no points for calling in the universe-ending ruler of everything to take care of the leftover metaphysical nanoplague that Zamasu left behind.

Dragonus45

2016-12-21, 03:56 AM

and he was the one who ultimately defeated Zamasu, even if he needed to call in the King of Everything.

Just going to chime in that being involved in that giant painful bull**** ruinous ending to an otherwise spectacular arc does Goku no favors.

The Troubadour

2016-12-21, 08:45 AM

Nope, that was Future Trunks win. Goku gets no points for calling in the universe-ending ruler of everything to take care of the leftover metaphysical nanoplague that Zamasu left behind.

How so? Zamasu's "leftover" would have killed them, Goku was the one who came up with the idea and the only one who had the resources to deal with the situation (even if it involved calling someone else). I agree that it greatly cheapens Trunks' hard-earned victory, but that's what happened.

Just going to chime in that being involved in that giant painful bull**** ruinous ending to an otherwise spectacular arc does Goku no favors.

That's not really the point anyway. :-) It's not so much a matter of giving Goku brownie points, but acknowledging that much like in the original "Dragon Ball" manga (which includes the story arcs which would become the "Z" anime), Goku is still the series' main character and, with a few exceptions, is still the one who's going to defeat the main bad guy in the end.

Anteros

2016-12-21, 03:18 PM

We can sit here all day and debate technicalities on which fights Goku technically won or not...but at the end of the day, the fact is that he continually has a much better showing than any other character. For example, Goku may not have defeated Hit, but he sure as heck did better than Vegeta, who got embarrassed. It's the same with the Arale fight, or Beerus, or whoever.

Goku may not technically be winning every fight, but it doesn't change the fact that every character besides him exists to be a punching bag so he can show off how great he is. That's the real problem people have.

That's one of the reasons the Future Trunks arc was so popular at first, because it finally subverted this trend. Vegeta finally did something Goku couldn't by overpowering Black, and Trunks got the spotlight by dealing the final blow. It was great....right up until they killed everyone off screen and made the entire arc meaningless.

How so? Zamasu's "leftover" would have killed them, Goku was the one who came up with the idea and the only one who had the resources to deal with the situation (even if it involved calling someone else). I agree that it greatly cheapens Trunks' hard-earned victory, but that's what happened.

I mean, they coulda just left and gone home. Everyone the arc was about protecting was dead at that point anyway.

The Troubadour

2016-12-21, 04:14 PM

Goku may not technically be winning every fight, but it doesn't change the fact that every character besides him exists to be a punching bag so he can show off how great he is. That's the real problem people have.

Indeed. Which is a great shame, but honestly, that's always been there; rare were the moments when Goku wasn't the one who defeated the main villain.
That said, the original series was much better in giving the spotlight to other characters. In "Super", of the main characters, only Vegeta and Goku have any importance in the plots, and Vegeta tends to job at critical points to prop up Goku.

I mean, they coulda just left and gone home. Everyone the arc was about protecting was dead at that point anyway.

I doubt Vegeta or Goku would consider running away as winning, though. Also, Zamasu was starting to spread to the "main" timeline.

Lord Raziere

2016-12-21, 04:24 PM

I doubt Vegeta or Goku would consider running away as winning, though. Also, Zamasu was starting to spread to the "main" timeline.

Yeah, if they ran, then Zamasu would've probably spread to all possible timelines.

BTW, Zeno won, Goku was just the guy who made the phone call. it doesn't count if Goku can't beat the opponent himself. a loss is a loss.

Mato

2016-12-23, 05:30 PM

.....I don't think thats how the SSJ progression works.
In BoG SSG runs out fairly fast leaving Goku to fight Beerus underground in his normal state and Goku reenters SSj1, which is expressly not SSGSS/SSB, to continue fighting as they take things to outer space. According to BoG's depiction, a post-god transformation SSj1 Goku is about as strong as the SSG transformation and my point was he could still have gone SSj2/SSj3.

During BoG/RoF Toriyama wanted to phase out SSj2/SSj3 and simplified things to saying they were variants and it's possible to access their power gain in the normal super form. So we're given a reason why we would never see a SSBSSj3 or w/e. And Super radically alters the events by having SSG last for the entire fight and SSG isn't depicted as a permanent power increase but temporary one. It also fixes RoF inconsistencies by renaming "Super Saiyen God Super Saiyen" to SSB and explaining to be a mix of godly ki and SSj rather than the previously sold as concept of SSG+SSj. And Whis gets a scene where he explains Goku & Vegeta can barely access any god powers at all. Super initially did a better job handling this than the films did and this is why you think SSB and SSj3 can't be combined. But my comment called out BoG and not Super.

But so you know, that terrible Trunks arc did happen and it wasn't a mass nightmare. They gave us Rose which clearly depicts it's possible to create variants of the SSB form, w/e the hell Trunk's form is supposed to be, and reestablishes that Goku's SSj3 form is still more powerful than his SSj1 form because who pays attention to Toriyama anyway? So instead of Goku increasing his powers as a SSB the arc was setting up for a new transformation. It's tell early to tell what through. (super saiyen white!)

Anteros

2016-12-23, 05:38 PM

In BoG SSG runs out fairly fast leaving Goku to fight Beerus underground in his normal state and Goku reenters SSj1, which is expressly not SSGSS/SSB, to continue fighting as they take things to outer space. According to BoG's depiction, a post-god transformation SSj1 Goku is about as strong as the SSG transformation and my point was he could still have gone SSj2/SSj3.

During BoG/RoF Toriyama wanted to phase out SSj2/SSj3 and simplified things to saying they were variants and it's possible to access their power gain in the normal super form. So we're given a reason why we would never see a SSBSSj3 or w/e. And Super radically alters the events by having SSG last for the entire fight and SSG isn't depicted as a permanent power increase but temporary one. It also fixes RoF inconsistencies by renaming "Super Saiyen God Super Saiyen" to SSB and explaining to be a mix of godly ki and SSj rather than the previously sold as concept of SSG+SSj. And Whis gets a scene where he explains Goku & Vegeta can barely access any god powers at all. Super initially did a better job handling this than the films did and this is why you think SSB and SSj3 can't be combined. But my comment called out BoG and not Super.

But then that terrible Trunks arc happened. They gave us Rose which clearly depicts it's possible to create variants of the SSB form, w/e the hell Trunk's form is supposed to be, and reestablishes that Goku's SSj3 form is still more powerful than his SSj1 form because who pays attention to Toriyama anyway? So instead of Goku increasing his powers as a SSB the arc was setting up for a new transformation. It's tell early to tell what through. (super saiyen white!)

My understanding was that Rose was the same form as Blue, it's just that Zamasu's ki is different from a normal Saiyans.

Mato

2016-12-24, 04:36 PM

My understanding was that Rose was the same form as Blue, it's just that Zamasu's ki is different from a normal Saiyans.It is compared to a normal Saiyen. It has a mix of godly ki, just like SSB. :smalltongue:

We have not been given a reason to suspect there are different types of godly ki as everything suggests it's a whole type all the gods, and trained mortals, share. Personal ki varies, like Black registers as Goku and Zamasu, but if personal ki can result in color changes than Vegata should have his own color. But who knows, you could be right. It's not like they cared to explain anything in this arc.

At least when Evil Buu fused with Good Buu to produce Super Buu we were given a good holding back evil excuse. But when Zamasu fused with Zamasu resulting in a Zamasu+Goku fusion all we're told is he's mortal but no he's actually immortal and also here is Super Saiyen White! :smallsigh:

Anteros

2016-12-24, 04:45 PM

I mean, his hair was white because Zamasu's hair was white. That's not particularly unreasonable. There are a ton of problems with Super, but that doesn't strike me as one of them.

Mato

2016-12-24, 05:39 PM

I mean, his hair was white because Zamasu's hair was white.Both of Vegito's appearances prove SSj/SSB recolor your hair. Gotanks used the Metamoran method but shows a new hair style that combines both his character's colors and the Potara fusion of Kibito Kai even resulted in style hair neither one of them had. Fused Zamasu has SSj Black's hair in Zamasu's color while Super Saiyen Rose and that doesn't fit in anywhere without making up excuses of assumed exceptions.

It is kind of minor compared to the other things through.

Anteros

2016-12-24, 05:47 PM

Both of Vegito's appearances prove SSj/SSB recolor your hair. Gotanks used the Metamoran method but shows a new hair style that combines both his character's colors and the Potara fusion of Kibito Kai even resulted in style hair neither one of them had. Fused Zamasu has SSj Black's hair in Zamasu's color while Super Saiyen Rose and that doesn't fit in anywhere without making up excuses of assumed exceptions.

It is kind of minor compared to the other things through.

Every time we've seen a fused Kai (Elder, Kubito, and Zamasu) they retained the Kai hair color and skin tone. Post transformation appearances seem to greatly favor the Kai if one is involved. I'm much more inclined to believe it's just because Zamasu's hair was white than any type of new super saiyan. Fused Zamasu probably can't even transform since he's no longer a saiyan.

Just because something isn't explicitly explained doesn't mean it automatically "doesn't fit in anywhere". It's far more reasonable to assume that an explanation is possible (even if my personal one isn't correct) than to assume the author is just pulling things out of his rear end.

Speaking of the Rose transformation. Something interesting in the new manga chapter is that Black can't even transform to it. He explicitly tells Vegeta that he can't transform past normal Super Saiyan at all.

Rater202

2016-12-24, 08:06 PM

Remember how, back when Patora was introduced, Elder Kai said that fusing while transformed would mean that the fusion would not be able to power down and would thus shorten the fused beings life?

This implies that Potara fusions see whatever form you're in when you fuse as a default state. If Rose is read as Black's default state, then why would the resulting fusion regard the pink hair color as being anything worth noting?

I'd also note that Black and Zamasu have the exact same Ki. That is, Black is not a mixture of Goku's Ki and Zamasu's, Goku's body is the only thing of Goku's that Black has--his body and the potential within it.

So... maybe Super Saiyan Rose isn't actually a Super Saiyan form? Zamsu's ki is pink/purple by default, maybe it's simply a super saiyan like form based on the power that Zamasu already had?

Anteros

2016-12-24, 08:09 PM

I'd also note that Black and Zamasu have the exact same Ki. That is, Black is not a mixture of Goku's Ki and Zamasu's, Goku's body is the only thing of Goku's that Black has--his body and the potential within it.

They repeatedly say that Black's ki isn't exactly the same as Zamasu's though. Just that it's very similar.

gordonpyette

2016-12-24, 08:12 PM

the dragon ball super arcs are go to be as follows first they did a retelling of battle of gods which has just finished now there doing a retelling of resurrection of f and after that there going to do an original arc about a tournament between universe 7 which is the main dragon ball universe and universe 6 and the only think I know about it so far is that champa (the characters that looks like a fat beerus) is from there. So they mite bring him back from this universe I don't know but it's a possibility. and as for English DUB (as of 11/2/15) they just released episode 17 so it will be a while

Mato

2016-12-25, 12:00 AM

Every time we've seen a fused Kai (Elder, Kubito, and Zamasu) they retained the Kai hair color and skin tone.Grand, East, West, and South supreme kais were normal flesh colored, Universe 6's is green like Zamasu and while Gowasu was yellow, so as you put it it's far more reasonable to assume Elder Kai's original form isn't purple. And Kubito was a kai so you're theory of kai trumps needs a reason why Kubito was ignored. So instead of proving Zamasu's coloring the theory is based on Zamasu and it's circular logic. I think you're trying a little too hard for this.

It's far more reasonable to assume that an explanation is possible (even if my personal one isn't correct) assume the author is just pulling things out of his rear end.

Speaking of the Rose transformation. Something interesting in the new manga chapter is that Black can't even transform to it. He explicitly tells Vegeta that he can't transform past normal Super Saiyan at all.Normally I'd agree even setting aside the fact that Toriyama does just that but as my repeated complaint with Super's newest arc keeps reminding you of; they never gave one for anything.

And it makes sense, in the anime Black didn't even realize anger made him more powerful.

So... maybe Super Saiyan Rose isn't actually a Super Saiyan form? Zamsu's ki is pink/purple by default, maybe it's simply a super saiyan like form based on the power that Zamasu already had?According to Toriyama's notes in the ninetieth issue says it's "Becomes a Super Saiyan like Goku, and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color than Goku." because he really did pull the transformation out of his rear. Anyway, it confirms Black has the normal yellow SSj form and Rose is a uniquely colored SSj form by the author. Devil's advocate about SSR using godly ki and the rebuttal that Black emits Zamasu-like godly ki and invents the Rose variant after seeing Blue aside. SSR is an official SSj transformation and Vegito proves SSj alters your hair color in two different instances.

Goku learned how to resurrect him self and the writers gave Hit a retcon to skipping time which gives him Obito Uchiha's Kamui.

But the last episode not even a week ago showed Hit being invincibly solid instead of intangible. :smallsigh:
And speaking of the last episode. If ended with a cliff hanger of someone being killed. So with bad writing, sloppy pointless cliff hangers, and the 18th chapter's background keeps vanishing. I think I know what Tite is doing in his free time.

Indarra

2016-12-25, 02:06 AM

Okay yeah it was a filler arc.

On Goku Black, I don't think any of the Zamasus would know how to use ki that's not godly.

Rater202

2016-12-25, 10:01 AM

Grand, East, West, and South supreme kais were normal flesh colored, Universe 6's is green like Zamasu and while Gowasu was yellow, so as you put it it's far more reasonable to assume Elder Kai's original form isn't purple. And Kubito was a kai so you're theory of kai trumps needs a reason why Kubito was ignored. So instead of proving Zamasu's coloring the theory is based on Zamasu and it's circular logic. I think you're trying a little too hard for this.The flashback (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFIWPAJtgGU) shows Elder Kai as being Purple back when he was just Supreme Kai,and the witch he fused with was flesh colored.

Kibito also isn't a Kai--Kibito is a Shin-jin. Kai ins't a race, Kai is a job. Shin-jin is the race. All kais are Shin-jin but not all Shin-jin are kais. Regardless, being the supreme Kai, Supreme Kai would be remarkably more powerful than Kibito, and would thus be dominant in the fusion.

According to Toriyama's notes in the ninetieth issue says it's "Becomes a Super Saiyan like Goku, and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color than Goku." because he really did pull the transformation out of his rear. Anyway, it confirms Black has the normal yellow SSj form and Rose is a uniquely colored SSj form by the author. Devil's advocate about SSR using godly ki and the rebuttal that Black emits Zamasu-like godly ki and invents the Rose variant after seeing Blue aside. SSR is an official SSj transformation and Vegito proves SSj alters your hair color in two different instances.SperSaiyan Rose ins't even in the manga yet, if at all. Furthermore,as the Manga is written by a different person from the anime and they tell the stories in different ways, you honestly cannot use one as a source when arguing about the other.

Now, Toriyima's claim that SSR is a different color of Super Saiyan? Actually supports my theory--Super Saiyan Rose is pink/Purple because Zamasu' ki is Pink/Purple. He doesn't have Saiyan Ki, he has The Ki of a Supreme Kai of Universe 10. So, even if he's using the mechanics of SSJ, he's still using supreme Kai Ki, not super saiyan ki.

And Vegito never formed while one of his components was Already Super Saiyan. Merged Zamasu did. Furthermore, Merged Zamasu was a fusion between a Supreme Kai and a Saiyan(technically.) In order to know for sure that SSJ would alter your hair while fused, you'd have to have Goku or Vegeta, while already Super Saiyan, fuse with somebody who is not a super saiyan--and for the best results, it would have to be with someone who was not a saiyan themselves--and the non saiyan would have to be dominant in the fusion,since Future Zamasu is clearly dominant in Merged Zamasu.

Goku learned how to resurrect him self and the writers gave Hit a retcon to skipping time which gives him Obito Uchiha's Kamui.

But the last episode not even a week ago showed Hit being invincibly solid instead of intangible. :smallsigh:
And speaking of the last episode. If ended with a cliff hanger of someone being killed. So with bad writing, sloppy pointless cliff hangers, and the 18th chapter's background keeps vanishing. I think I know what Tite is doing in his free time.1: Hit's abillity was called "time skip" from the first time it was used, so this probably isn't a retcon.

2: Goku said that he couldn't hit Hit at the end of the last episode despite his attacks clearly connecting, so yeah...

Delicious Taffy

2016-12-25, 11:46 AM

Mato

2016-12-25, 01:17 PM

The flashback (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFIWPAJtgGU) shows Elder Kai as being Purple back when he was just Supreme Kai,and the witch he fused with was flesh colored.And if you look, both their hair colors are shades of dark blue / purple and we're not shown the fused form until fifteen ki generations later when he has a mustache.

and would thus be dominant in the fusion.If there were true then Black would have been dominate in the fusion with Zamasu.

He doesn't have Saiyan Ki, he has The Ki of a Supreme Kai of Universe 10. So, even if he's using the mechanics of SSJ, he's still using supreme Kai Ki, not super saiyan ki.According to Twitter, Todd Blankenship made the same mistaken you're making now. Except when I reiterated it you to I made a point of expressly mentioning that Toriyama's note says Black has both the normal SSj form and SSR. In other words, he is using "saiyen ki" because according to the creator Black can enter the pure SSj form.

:smallsigh:

Sometimes, I wish Dragon Ball fans would stop arguing over every little detail and just accept that the franchise does what it wants, when it wants, logic be damned.Oh I did. And I dinged the arc's writing for it.

Currently the "super fans" are using me to work out a theory of explanation by them half reading my posts and citing things that don't help them because eventually they'll blindly come up with something that sounds plausible so they can see like uber fans on another forum by explaining it to that community.

All of that aside, Super Saiyan 4 Blue x10 Kaioken Gogito is real-life canon, and you can't tell me otherwise.Subverted!

In episode 58 of GT, Goku receives a power share from Trunks, Gohan, and Goten. Which means that taken as a new entity (which we have proof, super buu & black), Gogeta is takes the role of sixth Saiyan that receives the power of five others, completing the ritual for the true Super Saiyen God transformation and canonical displays the real SSGSSj4 transformation on screen back when all we knew about the SSG was a passive mention in DB Minus.

Rater202

2016-12-25, 02:00 PM

back when all we knew about the SSG was a passive mention in DB Minus.

Dragon Ball Minus was first published on April 4, 2014. Super Saiyan God was both introduced and explained in full in Battle of Gods, which premiered on March 30, 2013, over a year before DB minus.

Mato

2016-12-25, 03:18 PM

Oh yeah, looked at the wrong release date. BoG took a year to hit the US, where has the time flown off to?

Lord Raziere

2016-12-25, 03:23 PM

Sometimes, I wish Dragon Ball fans would stop arguing over every little detail and just accept that the franchise does what it wants, when it wants, logic be damned. Rules get re-written, new information was suddenly always there if they'd just asked the right person, and there's a whole lot of "Look what I can do now!" getting thrown all over by everyone. That said, I never can seem to stop myself from reading the arguments and getting a chuckle.

And just to cover my ass before anyone says anything, I really do love the Dragon Ball franchise. I've got the shirts, I've got the video games, hell, I've even been collecting a set of Dragon Balls for myself. I bring this up because there's a tendency in the fandom to jump down someone's throat if it even looks like they might be a little critical of the show and react like they're deliberately riling up fans of a show they don't even like in the first place.

Trust me man, I understand that completely. I love Dragon Ball, and not because it has consistent rules or how logical it is. I love it, because there always feels as if there is more to the world than what we are seeing. Like, if you watched all of DBZ, you'd never be able to predict that Magetta or Botamo would ever be a thing, if you watch Cell and Freeza arcs you'd never be able to predict that Majin Buu would be a thing, if you watched all of Dragon Ball you'd never be able to predict that Raditz and Goku being an alien would be a thing. and I like that, because it expands things, it introduces new stuff and shows that its more varied than I initially gave it credit, and that while the show is all about martial arts fights, you can always see there is more to the world in Dragon Ball than the fights, there is Gohan who has other things on his mind that are just as or more important, there is Bulma who consistently has solved problems since the early days without ever once throwing a punch, and whole lots of people who go about their lives not even KNOWING that it all could end because a couple of crazy strong martial artists punched something a little too hard.

and of course, new abilities are always just one implied retroactive training arc away. but thats a common trope in wuxia that is practically tradition. Beats tedious training arcs where we do nothing but watch the protagonist do boring stuff and instead gets right to the good part.

Rater202

2016-12-25, 04:05 PM

Oh yeah, looked at the wrong release date. BoG took a year to hit the US, where has the time flown off to?

To be fair, DB Minus was an epilogue for Jaco The Galatic Patrolman, and Jaco the Galactic Patrolman was meant to be published around the same time as Battle of Gods... but then Toriyama made himself sick trying to churn the whole thing out rapid fire like he used to when he was young, so it's possible that Dragon Ball Minus would have come first if Jaco had been published in time.

Speaking of which... is anyone else kind of disappointed that they don't really integrate Jaco into the story as well as they could? I mean, the flashbacks help, but to someone who never read Jaco the Galactic Patrolman he kinda sorta comes out of nowhere.

I mean, there was plenty of room in the Resurrection F arc for this. It could have gone there, just a quick recap episode, but no.

Anteros

2016-12-25, 04:37 PM

He's annoying, so I'm glad he doesn't get much screen time. DragonBall doesn't really need a third power ranger wanna be.

The Troubadour

2016-12-25, 11:13 PM

Speaking of which... is anyone else kind of disappointed that they don't really integrate Jaco into the story as well as they could?

Kind of, but I'm much more disappointed that we're still not getting more Piccolo, Gohan and all the human Z Fighters.

Rater202

2016-12-25, 11:20 PM

Kind of, but I'm much more disappointed that we're still not getting more Piccolo, Gohan and all the human Z Fighters.

Well...http://data.asiastarz.com/data/thumbs/full/21096/600/0/0/0/goku-and-his-team-are-shown-above-and-will-fight-in-the-tournament-which-include-fighters-from-universe-6-and-7-that-will-premiere-on-february-5-2017.png

Lord Raziere

2016-12-25, 11:53 PM

Y'know, the scariest thing about Zeno is that he has the Popo eyes....and given that he is probably the closet we'll ever see to a canon abridged Popo....it makes one wonder if they aren't related somehow.

Or.....perhaps....

Ok, so its TFS canon that in Abridged Verse, Dumplin eventually becomes Abridged Mr. Popo.

But! Canon Zeno exhibits many traits that one could link to Abridged Mr. Popo:
-Likes being on top of the pecking order
-is a scary abomination of nature that no one knows the origin of.
-can destroy entire universes without a sweat
-makes casual threats without even raising his voice
-despite all his power, mostly uses it to sit around and have his own fun

Given their similar eyes, my theory is that Dumplin becoming Mr. Popo was like a super form transformation- it changed his form, making him become more powerful, but like a saiyan unleashing their rage, it unleashed his hidden evil and like an advanced enough saiyan he forgot how to turn it off so he stays evil forever.

But like super forms, its not his FINAL form. Somehow as Mr. Popo he becomes even stronger until he transforms again, goes back in time and creates all of reality appearing as Zeno and renaming himself thus. his Zeno form is like the Super Saiyan Blue transformation- it better controls his ki and thus his inner evil, thus making him nicer and more controlled over himself but still a scary abomination that is perfectly willing and able to wipe out universes.

Thus, Zeno is the final form of Dumplin and TFS's Abridged Mr. Popo.

Anteros

2016-12-26, 01:55 AM

You'd think if the tournament was going to be that serious they would recruit F-Trunks or the kids over someone like Roshi. Even Yamcha is stronger than him.

Rater202

2016-12-26, 10:45 AM

You'd think if the tournament was going to be that serious they would recruit F-Trunks or the kids over someone like Roshi. Even Yamcha is stronger than him.

From what I've put together from the teasers, the tournament is gonna be less one on one and more team battles, so Roshi, being a centuries old immortal sage, becomes much more valuable for his centuries of experience and mystic knowledge. He's far from the most powerful, but he's easily the most skilled.

I could be wrong though.

Regardless: Future Trunks went to that alternate version of his Future that Whis created by raping Time for Zamasu never happened and I doubt the Gods would appreciate someone breaking the time travel rules in order to gain a slight advantage.

The kids are kids. They do not take fighting seriously, and regardless they have to fuse to be anywhere near their parant's current power levels.

Yamcha has retired from fighting and has been training with ki only to use it to win at baseball.

Dragonus45

2016-12-26, 04:08 PM

You'd think if the tournament was going to be that serious they would recruit F-Trunks or the kids over someone like Roshi. Even Yamcha is stronger than him.

You should consider that despite his age and infirmity he STILL qualifies as one of the only people strong enough to come along for the big brawl in RoF, and has centuries of skill to back it up. Also as much as I love Future Trunks to death the less we see of him the easier it will be for me to pretend that he is happily living in the universe he worked so hard to save and not.... the other thing.

Anteros

2016-12-26, 04:17 PM

Rater202

2016-12-26, 08:00 PM

To be fair, it didn't make a lot of sense to bring him in RoF either. The guy has a power level of 100. Even Chi Chi is stronger than him. I just don't see what he brings to the table on a team with people literally trillions of times more powerful than him.

That said, due to anime tropes and Dragonball's love of fan-service I'm sure he'll be useful somehow.

Mystical knowledge that the other guys don't have? Like the good four or five techniques of his that he never tought any of his students? Like Sleepy Boy? Or the Turtle School Ultimate Technique that turns your ki into lightning and shocks the crap out of the other guy? I could see those techniques being somewhat useful.

I mean, Universe 6 had two guys who weren't that strong but had freaky tricks that made fighting them difficult, could be that this time Goku's decided to try the same.

There's also the possibility that he's been training himself in secret to get back into shape--hell, he's technically immortal so he could go into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for a month and come out no worse for wear.

The Troubadour

2016-12-26, 08:33 PM

Well...http://data.asiastarz.com/data/thumbs/full/21096/600/0/0/0/goku-and-his-team-are-shown-above-and-will-fight-in-the-tournament-which-include-fighters-from-universe-6-and-7-that-will-premiere-on-february-5-2017.png

Oh, I really am! I just hope they're actually plot-relevant when the time comes.

Lord Raziere

2016-12-26, 08:45 PM

@ Anteros: Hahahaha, power levels. Those stopped really being that much of a thing back in Cell Saga. Its just that now, Super is throwing out any assumption that amount of ki equates to actual power at all. Somehow Jaco and Roshi fought evenly with other Z-Warriors. Somehow Future Trunks did what Goku ,Vegeta then Vegitto all in SS Blue could not.

Yet somehow, Goku still overpowers Hits' stuff every time they fight.

Yet somehow Golden Freeza still insta-pwns Gohan and Piccolo.

Yet Trunks and Goten are still useless.

Yet somehow Yamcha was able to survive a storm around two angry Gods to win a baseball game.

Really, power level in Dragonball Super isn't about numbers. Its about five tiers:

Zeno is strongest

Then Angels

Then Gods of Destruction

Then Divine Mortals level of power (SS Blue Goku and Vegeta, anyone with blue divine energy like Future Trunks, Golden Freeza, Hit, SS Rose Black) Technically Golden Freeza nor Hit ever demonstrate the ability to wield divine energy though. Freeza is just this freak of nature whose Golden form is just powerful enough to take on a god without being one, while Hits techniques are outside of the box as far as Dragon Ball techniques go and are on a certain level completely hax.

Everyone else. Majin Buu, Cell, Raditz, etc. are now all in the same nebulous tier of power, which is "Not A God."

But then again, there is a certain factor to consider: the foes being faced. in DBZ, Freeza was insanely more powerful, still alive after a lot of dismemberment, and could breathe in space. Cell had hax regeneration + Freeza toughness + Zenkai boosts. Buu could also regenerate from nearly anything. In short, most of the big foes they were facing in DBZ had all in some way super-optimized for durability. Thats why fights dragged on for so long and you needed someone really powerful to get rid of them. In DB Super, we are for the most part, not facing foes capable of such durability anymore. Thus when a hero gets a killing blow- its a killing blow. No way to back out with regeneration or prolong the fight so somebody else stronger has to defeat them.

We see this similarly with Goku- despite his incredible power, he gets taken out by a single laser shot from this side characters ring. Despite all of ones OFFENSIVE power, it doesn't matter if your durability is so low that a minion can take you out. Zamasu had complete invincibility for a time, but miscalculated and ended up getting cut in half for it when he lost it- without it, he is just a guy who dies when his vital organs get slashed just like anyone else,

So, it doesn't matter if your offensive power is "I can destroy the galaxy" if your defensive power limit is "I can destroy a city".

Simply, we're so used to DBZ villains being able to come back from anything that guys who can possibly go down from an attack that ISN'T the strongest one possible is kind of weird. The Gods may be stronger than Buu or Cell, but their bodies pretty much work normal, if very hardened by ki. Once that hardening is pierced.....they dead.

Dragon Ball is a strange universe where the fighters offensive potential WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY outstrips their defensive potential. With notable exceptions being very dangerous, near unstoppable beings

Mato

2016-12-26, 11:34 PM

tl;dr: Dragonball is about as balanced as a D&D glass cannon wizard.
All the BBEGs had contingency[true resurrection] so Goku just learned how to hit them more times per turn.
And in Super everyone realized contingency had a 6th level spell cap so Goku haxxed a self-raise and is now the BBEG to all the new characters you love like Hit or Cabba.

The Troubadour

2016-12-27, 08:35 AM

Nah, "DB" characters aren't nearly as fragile. Remember back in Goku's fight with Piccolo at the World Tournament how Roshi specifically noted how his stamina was now his greatest ability? Plus, think of just how much damage Goku endured when fighting Freeza, and how he withstood Golden Freeza's attacks even when the latter's power was still at its peak.
It's actually uncommon for stronger characters to be seriously hurt by attacks from weaker characters, unless said attack has some special property (like Piccolo's Makkankousapo or Krillin's Kienzan). I think what explains Goku being felled by Sorbet's laser beam is that he was taken by surprise and thus, wasn't really using his ki (remember how Vegeta explicitly had to lower his power level to the point where Krillin could hurt him, back in Namek?).

Rater202

2016-12-27, 11:17 AM

If you're willing to take Dragon Ball Heroes as an official source, we've got a name and an explanation for Trunk's Unique Super Saiyan form.

According to the Dragon Ball Heroes website, it's name is Super Saiyan Ikari/Rage and is the result of Trunk's rage hitting a breaking point. So...

Some people are speculating that Gohan might be able to use the form, since he is also a Saiyan Human Hybrid who gains exceptional amounts of power due to his rage.

But this all depends on whether Heroes is a reliable source.

Mato

2016-12-27, 02:55 PM

and how he withstood Golden Freeza's attacks even when the latter's power was still at its peak.Greater mirror image, since when were you under the impression of them actually hitting each other? :smallwink:

If you're willing to take Dragon Ball Heroes as an official source, we've got a name and an explanation for Trunk's Unique Super Saiyan form.That almost makes it worse.

The underlying mechanic is being ticked off is a running them of SSj so now we're to believe SSj2 Vegeta's rage against Beerus slapping Bulma wasn't enough to go SSjR even through it multiplied his power by at least thirty fold? They should have just said Might Guy showed him how to unlock the blue sweat gate given the recent plagiarization of Naruto.

Rater202

2016-12-27, 03:46 PM

That almost makes it worse.

Well, again, it's heroes.

It could well be because Vegeta's base form wasn't strong enough--you need to have a base power of so much before you could unlock Super Saiyan,otherwise Goku would have done it when King Piccolo's kid killed Krillin. Future Trunks after everything he went through training with Supreme Kai and getting absolutly destroyed by Black(zenkai boosts), then training with God level vegeta would be stronger in his baseform than Vegeta was when Beerus slapped Bulma.

Also, Vegeta's eyes did turn solid white for a bit when Beerus did it in the anime, just like Trunks' did when he first entered his new form

Delicious Taffy

2016-12-27, 05:03 PM

Subverted!

In episode 58 of GT, Goku receives a power share from Trunks, Gohan, and Goten. Which means that taken as a new entity (which we have proof, super buu & black), Gogeta is takes the role of sixth Saiyan that receives the power of five others, completing the ritual for the true Super Saiyen God transformation and canonical displays the real SSGSSj4 transformation on screen back when all we knew about the SSG was a passive mention in DB Minus.

That's not even the same thing as what I said.

Super Saiyan 4 Blue x10 Kaioken Gogito would be the result of Gogeta and Vegito fusing by some means, after going Super Saiyan 4, augmenting that with Super Saiyan Blue, and then using a x10 Kaioken. You're talking about just Gogeta being a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 4 due to somehow qualifying for the God ritual because Goku got a boost and then fused with Vegeta. There's a difference.

SSB4x10 Gogito is 100% canon, if you'd just read the manga.

Mato

2016-12-27, 09:32 PM

SSB4x10 Gogito is 100% canon, if you'd just read the manga.Sorry but there isn't a decent reliable site for Super and I'm pretty much stuck googling reddit for each individual chapter. As far as I know #20 isn't even released so Vegito hasn't even had a manga appearance yet.

But it doesn't really change much. Kaio Ken works with SSj in English filler and we know the ki control it takes just to handle godly ki and SSj makes it easier. SSG SSj4 Gogita can do it too :p
Plus they can unlock SSGSSj4SS2.5 Legendary G Mode!

Edit - Speaking of new. TFS's Broly is up and they turned him into a wimp whiny teen, there is probably a metajoke there given their disdain for the character and the fanbase pretty much yelling for him to be done asap.

Lord Raziere

2016-12-27, 10:47 PM

Edit - Speaking of new. TFS's Broly is up and they turned him into a wimp whiny teen, there is probably a metajoke there given their disdain for the character and the fanbase pretty much yelling for him to be done asap.

Whiny? No. I've seen it and my interpretation is more that TFS Broly is like one of those 'special' kids. He isn't angsty or anything, he just seems really childish and passive and not thinking in a neurotypical mindspace. In fact, he is actually friends with Goku before Vegeta messes everything up. like, TFS Broly might not actually link Kakarot to Goku at all. I think "Kakarot" might just be a word to him that reminds him of when he got stabbed by King Vegeta and nearly got destroyed by Freeza. He just associates it with bad times rather than specifically hating Goku, so he melts down.

That and TFS Broly seems to have no memory of destroying south galaxy. He acts as if who destroyed South Galaxy is a mystery to him, so its possible that he has no memory of how terrifying he is when he transforms. A jekyll and hyde scenario. Which TFS did justice to Broly by playing Beerus's Madness when he transformed. The theme of a character they actually like for him. Thats respect.

Me, I'm predicting they will do something similar to what they did for World's Strongest and somehow change the ending entirely. Because all of TFS mostly dislike him for how little his backstory makes sense and how little his character goes from there. That and have you ever noticed how much Trunks SS 3rd Grade form is similar to Broly's Legendary SS form? perhaps the Princess Trunks bit is foreshadowing Trunks somehow solving things in a way we don't expect?

The Troubadour

2016-12-27, 11:18 PM

Greater mirror image, since when were you under the impression of them actually hitting each other? :smallwink:

Listen, I read "Dragon Ball" back when Zanzoken was still a thing. I knew Zanzoken. Zanzoken was a favourite technique of mine.* And that, my friend, was no Zanzoken. :-)

* Not really, but I wanted to stick to the theme.

Mato

2016-12-28, 11:07 AM

So the clap in front of Hit's face (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLC-PNKFJoA&t=3m35s) bothered me until this morning I realized that was a high school assassination (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkNS6B-W6qs&t=1m45s) reference. I presume it's supposed to show that Goku studied assassination techniques and Hit is so awesome he won't leave him self open to unexpected diversions.

The Troubadour

2016-12-28, 11:57 AM

They should have just said Might Guy showed him how to unlock the blue sweat gate given the recent plagiarization of Naruto.

Oh, yeah, forgot to comment on this: seriously? Becoming intangible by actually phasing to other dimensions has been a staple of American super-hero comics and Japanese anime/manga for decades.

Mato

2016-12-28, 01:38 PM

Oh, yeah, forgot to comment on this: seriously? Becoming intangible by actually phasing to other dimensions has been a staple of American super-hero comics and Japanese anime/manga for decades.Most, if not all, of the famous Marvel/DC characters explain their intangibility using density. Like Vison/Apocalypse/Green Martian/Silver Surfer can control their mass/size allowing them to pass through solid matter like Kitty Pryde can. And the Flash and all of his incarnations and villains and close to matchs can do this by vibrating fast enough, teleporting to the speedforce dimension is something else entirely. If you dig there are some other forms of intangibility. Like Cloak doesn't shift his body back and forth, his body is a portal. Dr Fate/Strange and others like Dracula and such use magic or take on astral forms. And there are teleporters that can teleport before getting hit and portal controllers open a hole to punch of slip through. But I'm not sure if there is a single Marvel/DC character that can instantly shuffle his true body into a pocket dimension while leaving his likeness behind and he has to reemerge exactly where he left his visual clone at.

On the Japanese side, I really don't know. Naruto was the first time I seen it explained as using a pocket dimension and Hit is #2. The Superpowered wiki specifically calls it Dimension Shifting and it only cites Naruto, Rosario, & Space Dandy. DC has three citations and one of them is a full reality warper, the other two are like Marvel's film universe of Dr Strange in that they draw their powers from the 2nd & 4th dimensions. Also the list includes (Paper) Mario so that's cool.

The Troubadour

2016-12-28, 03:45 PM

Well, since at least the introduction of the Speed Force way back in Mark Waid's "Flash" run, all Flashes are actually vibrating through dimensions when they become intangible; mind, this might have been retconned since then. DC Comics also has Johnny Sorrow, the post-Crisis (possibly post-Zero Hour?) version of Phantom Girl and the Shadow Thief as characters who explicitly become intangible due to space-warping abilities, while Marvel has Death-Stalker, and I think the Spot deserves an honourable mention in that his power is basically the reverse of how Obito's powers work (instead of temporarily shifting parts of his body to another dimension, he shifts his attacker's parts which connect with him to said dimension). As for anime/manga, Ryoko and Kagato (from "Tenchi Muyo") become intangible by virtue of accessing different, overlapping dimensions, an ability which also shows up in some of the manga characters. Honestly, I'd also count characters like DC Comics' Shade and Obsidian, or Marvel's Asylum, at least as "close enough!", since while their bodies physically change into other substances (shadows, to be specific), they do so by dimensional shenanigans.

Frozen_Feet

2016-12-28, 07:15 PM

As far as arguing Super is ripping off Naruto, I think the strongest argument one can make for that is "Naruto is another popular contemporary shonen series, making it likely the creators knew of and were thinking of it". As opposed to all those other things. I don't think we have any evidence that, but if true, it would mean things have come a full circle. Naruto started by ripping off Dragon Ball, after all. :smalltongue:

In general, though, all sorts and forms of superpowers have been invented and reinvented so many times, that it's hard to say who originally came up with what.

Anteros

2016-12-28, 08:52 PM

Hmm. This episode of abridged was a little better than the last few. They've been slipping a bit lately from completely hilarious to simply entertaining. Glad to see we're on an upswing again.

Mato

2016-12-29, 01:55 PM

As far as arguing Super is ripping off Naruto, I think the strongest argument one can make for that is "Naruto is another popular contemporary shonen series, making it likely the creators knew of and were thinking of it".That's probably the case since they had a Assassination Classroom reference.

@Anteros have you seen TFS's Super clips yet?

Anteros

2016-12-29, 04:53 PM

That's probably the case since they had a Assassination Classroom reference.

@Anteros have you seen TFS's Super clips yet?

Yeah. Most of them are decent. The Trunks one was lazy though.

Dragonus45

2016-12-29, 08:07 PM

So, am I the only person who figured tat Trunk's pseudo blue form was the result of the same effect that lead him to getting the spirit bomb sword? Something like him channeling the energy of everyone on earth to be a super human god? I think he was even giving a speech about humanity when it happened too.

Anteros

2016-12-29, 08:14 PM

My assumption is that it's just rage + a certain power threshold = new transformation. Just like SSJ1 or SSJ2.

I have another theory that he could have achieved god ki from his training with Vegeta. Since god ki slims you down, he's combining it with his old bulky form powerup, which would explain why he gets huge and then slims back down when he transforms.

I can't rule your theory out either, but the spirit bomb was a result of everyone actively willing him their energy, while he seems to be able to use the other form at will. Plus the civilians don't glow when he uses it.

Dragonus45

2016-12-30, 07:14 AM

Lord Raziere

2016-12-30, 02:22 PM

Well all really need to move forward into the Super Cyan stuff is to have some divine ki, and to explain my theory better since I had another thought. What if Trunks had become the Kami of earth?

Its probably just the half-saiyan equivalent of SS Blue or something that is almost SS Blue. Kami requires actual promotion to the job, since the position of Kami is a part of the godly hierarchy thats based on Chinese mythology. Which can't happen in Trunks timeline, cause Kami and Piccolo are dead. I think Dende got the position because Piccolo fused with Kami and therefore might've counted AS Kami until Dende got there.

Xihirli

2016-12-30, 09:24 PM

What if Trunks had become the Kami of earth?

If that granted divine ki Piccolo would have learned to use it after fusion with kami and been the strongest character by a wide margin up until Beerus and Whis are introduced.

Lord Raziere

2016-12-30, 09:33 PM

If that granted divine ki Piccolo would have learned to use it after fusion with kami and been the strongest character by a wide margin up until Beerus and Whis are introduced.

Actually Dende, North Kai and Kibitoshin could all sense Beerus's energy meaning they have divine ki, and they are all weaker than Goku back in Buu Saga, so........nope. Divine Ki is just another flavor of energy. the SS God/SS Blue transformations just throw divinity as a side power along a massive bonus from "less than 10% of Beerus's energy" to "strong as 0.75 Beeruses".

Mato

2016-12-30, 09:50 PM

Actually Dende, North Kai and Kibitoshin could all sense Beerus's energy meaning they have divine kiThat's probably not that accurate. In Super's 7th episode it's expressly a ki Dende has not sensing before, ie he and Piccolo do not obtain godly ki simply because they are/were Kami, only the ability to sense it which through Piccolo we can see only lasts as long as you retain the title of Kami.

What you are doing is overlapping Goku into their positions. But Goku is a master mimic able to replicate entire techniques just by seeing them once, proven to learn and master techniques better than his century old peers, and is able to discern a techniques traits and weaknesses fairly fast. Plus he went SSG he didn't just "sense" godly ki, he was actively filling his body with it and channeling it into his attacks. Dende might theoretically be able to use godly ki some day and his mastery of it might allow him to keep it even if the title is passed, but right now he has none and no ability to use it.

Anteros

2016-12-31, 12:16 AM

a massive bonus from "less than 10% of Beerus's energy" to "strong as 0.75 Beeruses".

This got ret-conned. In the anime they are nowhere near Beerus' power despite what was said in the movie.

Lord Raziere

2016-12-31, 01:03 AM

This got ret-conned. In the anime they are nowhere near Beerus' power despite what was said in the movie.

They didn't get near his power level either movie or anime, he beat them both times, what're you talking about?

The Troubadour

2016-12-31, 07:53 AM

That's probably not that accurate. In Super's 7th episode it's expressly a ki Dende has not sensing before, ie he and Piccolo do not obtain godly ki simply because they are/were Kami, only the ability to sense it which through Piccolo we can see only lasts as long as you retain the title of Kami.

Not at all. Back in the Buu Saga, Piccolo could discern the Kaioshin's true nature. He's also the one who explains to Goku (at least in the movie version of "Battle of the Gods") that while receiving energy from Gohan, Goten, Vegeta and Trunks greatly increased his power level, he still didn't have the ki of a god and thus, couldn't be the Super Saiyan God.

Kato

2016-12-31, 12:37 PM

So... I'll not meddle with the technicalities of trunk's transformation or any power scale discussion (because I feel since Z those are entirely pointless)

But... Am I the only one disappointed with the last episode? I know I'm late but... That fight might have looked nice in a few scenes and in the end a few jokes were okay but overall? Pretty bad second part. The add-ons to Hit's power were stupid and because there was no decent way around it Goku solves it by just powering up a lot? Wow, that's lazy... Though not as bad as Goku reviving himself with a ki blast? I mean, death is cheap anyway but that cheap?
I guess Goku ordering the hit on himself was predictable but fine. Even if he seemed a bit anxious for that last week.

Anteros

2016-12-31, 07:34 PM

They didn't get near his power level either movie or anime, he beat them both times, what're you talking about?

You said god ki made Goku as powerful as 0.75 Beerus. That was stated to be true in the movie, but was ret-conned by the anime. I am aware Beerus won both fights.

So... I'll not meddle with the technicalities of trunk's transformation or any power scale discussion (because I feel since Z those are entirely pointless)

But... Am I the only one disappointed with the last episode? I know I'm late but... That fight might have looked nice in a few scenes and in the end a few jokes were okay but overall? Pretty bad second part. The add-ons to Hit's power were stupid and because there was no decent way around it Goku solves it by just powering up a lot? Wow, that's lazy... Though not as bad as Goku reviving himself with a ki blast? I mean, death is cheap anyway but that cheap?
I guess Goku ordering the hit on himself was predictable but fine. Even if he seemed a bit anxious for that last week.

No, it was pretty bad. It's filler though. All of the filler episodes except the baseball one have been less than stellar.

Rater202

2016-12-31, 08:01 PM

I'm still holding out hope that we'll eventually get a post Z timeskip with an arc focusing on Pan, since Super Pan is a badass as even as a baby and she could make up for her wasted potential in the GT continuity.

Anybody agree with me?

Mato

2016-12-31, 08:07 PM

He's also the one who explains to Goku (at least in the movie version of "Battle of the Gods") that while receiving energy from Gohan, Goten, Vegeta and Trunks greatly increased his power level, he still didn't have the ki of a god and thus, couldn't be the Super Saiyan God.Actually after hte failed attempt all he says is it didn't work and Goku didn't have the power of a saiyen god. Let's cut into chapter 4, page 4, of the manga for a second. Gohan exclaims he can't sense Goku's ki and all Piccolo says is that's proof Goku has become a god because mortals can't sense gods and Whis adds to that saying Piccolo is well informed.

Piccolo displays knowledge of a negative test that can be performed, if he can sense Goku's energy than Goku is still using mortal ki, and not that he can sense godly ki.

Not at all. Back in the Buu Saga, Piccolo could discern the Kaioshin's true nature.And that's an English Dub Anime only thing that I can't even confirm if it's in the original. In the Manga, #440, Piccolo has trouble bringing him self to fight Shin and wonders what Shin is when Shin reads his mind and answers him. Piccolo is instantly startled by Shin's ability to read his mind and backs down as Shin thinks to him self that as former Kami Piccolo is starting to see who he really is.

The key difference here is the Manga never says Piccolo could discern his Shin's godly ki and Piccolo doesn't walk away with the confirmation that Shin is a god because of it, but as the mind-reading deity states; Piccolo is assembling the facts together for a theory on who Shin could be.

But some credit is due I suppose, the Anime either set the pre-concepts of godly ki they would later use or maybe it took notes from Toriyama who had recently created the idea. Either way, Piccolo sensing godly ki is ambiguous in Super, denied in the manga, and confirmed in the anime. So pick your canon I suppose.

I'm still holding out hope that we'll eventually get a post Z timeskip with an arc focusing on Pan, since Super Pan is a badass as even as a baby and she could make up for her wasted potential in the GT continuity.
Anybody agree with me?I'm sure there is an entire community out there that wants to see a topless SSj4 Pan... And you know what sign me up. I have questions.

Edit - TFS's Hellsing is up.

The Troubadour

2017-01-02, 10:58 AM

And that's an English Dub Anime only thing that I can't even confirm if it's in the original.

I wouldn't know, I've never watched the English dub. :-) I can't tell you if Piccolo figuring out that Kaioshin is some sort of god is present in the original, but I know it's there in the Brazilian anime dub, the Brazilian manga translation, and the American manga translation. You can see the latter here:

http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/37-245.0/compressed/sdragon_ball_z_v021-104.jpg?token=2b8489e365a5562e97ac178df9adbed2&ttl=1483455600

http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/37-246.0/compressed/pdragon_ball_z_v021-111.jpg?token=5ea1726b1a38581845d55bb2194469ca&ttl=1483455600

http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/37-246.0/compressed/pdragon_ball_z_v021-112.jpg?token=90d1d76e7f663aa8c39b883d78a4b0ef&ttl=1483455600

Mato

2017-01-02, 05:12 PM

Can you back up exactly one page on those citations?

The Troubadour

2017-01-02, 06:38 PM

What do you mean? This page: http://h.mfcdn.net/store/manga/214/37-245.0/compressed/sdragon_ball_z_v021-103.jpg?token=48b81fed6873d09c3cc73044f2ee929e&ttl=1483473600 ?

Mato

2017-01-02, 09:02 PM

I guess it was two pages but yeah. They have a randomized token so you can't just change the URL.

Anyway, it looks like the context remains the same. But seeing translation from the fan-wrote "starting to see" to the official Viz alteration of "have sensed" when you're focused on whether or not Piccolo can sense godly ki it sounds like total confirmation. But if you're skeptical of the matter like I am, you think the proper wording to support the concept would be that Piccolo sensed what Shin is, a god because he's using godly ki, instead to who Shin is. Also in Viz's version Shin's statement incorrect. Piccolo asks if Shin is the Grand Kai and Shin is not, so as a matter of fact Piccolo did not sense who Shin was and Shin's statement that he did is wrong. I know is sounds a little argumentative but it's there.

I'm going to go with Toriyama was still working out the concept of godly ki and had a vague idea of the role of Earth's kami as he was extending on things. Remember the Buu saga didn't just add the Surpreme Kais, but multiple universes, parallel demons, ancient eldritch horrors and a history expending the last twenty five thousand years. And the anime also pulled double duty and introduced Toriyama's Grand Kai and the other three quadrant Kais and their fighters for the out world tournament. The weeks it took for the franchise to go from paper to screen gave him enough time to trim the details some.

The Troubadour

2017-01-03, 07:24 AM

[...] you think the proper wording to support the concept would be that Piccolo sensed what Shin is, a god because he's using godly ki, instead to who Shin is.

Well, Viz's translation aside, that's actually what I am arguing for: that Piccolo has enough discernment to sense godly ki.
Since we're on the subject of translations, do you know of any good fan translation of "DBZ"? Viz's translation seems fine compared to what I remember of the Brazilian manga translation, but I'm always curious about other versions.

Mato

2017-01-03, 11:18 AM

but I'm always curious about other versions.You know I have no real idea. Mostly I just read w/e web site hosts it, fans often do a good job since individual words are normally meaningless. I personally like the ones that will note a Japanse idiom and explain it so you understand it rather than simply attempting to localize it since I come out of it with a little more understanding of their culture. But some of those fan sites also seems have occasional dislike over how Viz translated things.

When it comes to arguing translations for DBZ, Kanzenshuu is a pretty good place to try site searching unless you want to learn Japanese.

Edit, for example.

In the manga Vegeta's line was "We have no idea what's he's capable of but we'll soon find out". Not that he couldn't sense him.
Supreme Kai's line after the fight was " He used to be this planets God, he must have sensed who I am".

That's not what it was said.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.1
Context: after Piccolo and Kaioshin's match
Kaioshin: “…I see. He used to be this planet’s god…Perhaps he’s somehow started to realize who I am…”idk accuracy, but I personally like this discussion (http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26868) better which after chiming in thoughts they start discussing gaps in power and why Piccolo would have quit.

Anteros

2017-01-07, 07:47 PM

So info about the coming episodes is out. Looks like we're getting filler for another month or so.

JadedDM

2017-01-08, 03:08 PM

Wait, didn't they already make a Great Saiyaman movie? And didn't Gohan get roped into being the stuntman in that one, too? Is TOEI running out of ideas? Well, I guess the weird alien bit is new.

Akisa

2017-01-12, 05:02 PM

What I don't get about the last episode is that they made Great Saiyaman movie, and second in the tournament portion of Boo saga Gohan was shown to be the great Saiyaman.

Akisa

2017-01-12, 05:03 PM

Wait, didn't they already make a Great Saiyaman movie? And didn't Gohan get roped into being the stuntman in that one, too? Is TOEI running out of ideas? Well, I guess the weird alien bit is new.

Nope it's baby reskin and without a personality.

Mato

2017-01-12, 06:07 PM

Nope it's baby reskin and without a personality.Well a bunch of people said they wanted GT to be redone.

But did you really think Super, which has less than half the ratings of GT and just wrapped up one of the worst arcs in it's series after trying to introduce a bunch of purposely wracky gimmick fighters, could actually pull it off?

I'm willing to bet the ideas in your head are probably better than what Toei will put out.

Rater202

2017-01-12, 07:07 PM

What I don't get about the last episode is that they made Great Saiyaman movie, and second in the tournament portion of Boo saga Gohan was shown to be the great Saiyaman.

They used the Dragon Balls to erase everyone's memories of the Buu Saga so that Good Buu would have a fair chance. Apparently that included all the people dying and Saiyaman's secret identity being compromised.

Tono

2017-01-13, 12:42 AM

I am a big fan of this. Less Goku is always a good thing. And with Gohan starting training with Piccolo again, putting him up against a space alien is a good spot to put him back into the power curve so that we can see more of him on the front lines in the future. I know its always going to be Goku in the end, but this is a good step in the right direction.

Mato

2017-01-14, 05:46 PM

Since when did Dragonball Super become the next Bleach?
Less of the main protagonist the better!

Lord Raziere

2017-01-14, 05:50 PM

Since when did Dragonball Super become the next Bleach?
Less of the main protagonist the better!

Since Cell Saga of DBZ.

Tono

2017-01-14, 11:07 PM

That and I really don't like the characterization of Goku in Super. Hes too window-licker. I personally much more preferred how he acted in GT to this. Hell, the ending of 74 is a perfect example of this to me.
Goku ended up falling asleep instead of watching the movie because 'he doesn't like watching fights.' Thats... not right to me. Its family indifference, and say what you want about everyone's favorite negligent father, but he at least normally pretends to care.

At least how I see it. Less Goku could easily just be one of those weird personal things.

Lexiconjurer

2017-01-15, 04:18 AM

Anteros

2017-01-15, 04:27 AM

Maybe I'm weird but over the years as I've gotten older, I have come to understand Chi-Chi's point of view. I will fully admit when I was a kid watching DBZ I pretty much despised Chi-Chi because she kept getting in the way and trying to keep Gohan out of the action. But she has a very solid point. Goku is, essentially, an uneducated hillbilly who pretty much only knows how to beat people up. Sure, Goku is a badass when it comes to a fight but when the world isn't in danger what does he do? He sneaks off to train or slacks off working or neglects his family.

I was always a bit upset when Gohan was set up to take up the mantle of Earth's protector only to have Goku come back and steal the spotlight. But, now, I'm glad for him. Gohan got to have a life, get an education, a job, and a family! He's grown into an actual adult while Goku continues to be, well, Goku.

Still, it will be fun to see Gohan back in action! :smallbiggrin:

Ironically enough, Chi Chi is being massively irresponsible when she stops her children from training. I understand not wanting your child to end up brain damaged like Goku, but if she had her way the world would have been destroyed (for good) multiple times already. Goku won't live forever, and threats won't necessarily stop popping up just because he's gone. Just ask Future Trunks.

That and I really don't like the characterization of Goku in Super. Hes too window-licker. I personally much more preferred how he acted in GT to this. Hell, the ending of 74 is a perfect example of this to me.
Goku ended up falling asleep instead of watching the movie because 'he doesn't like watching fights.' Thats... not right to me. Its family indifference, and say what you want about everyone's favorite negligent father, but he at least normally pretends to care.

At least how I see it. Less Goku could easily just be one of those weird personal things.

They made him far more relateable and competent in the English dub than he was in the original. The dub turned him into a Superman type figure, while in the original Japanese he was always more of a brain damaged hillbilly. Super does take it to a ridiculous extreme though.

Drascin

2017-01-15, 04:36 AM

Ironically enough, Chi Chi is being massively irresponsible when she stops her children from training. I understand not wanting your child to end up brain damaged like Goku, but if she had her way the world would have been destroyed (for good) multiple times already. Goku won't live forever, and threats won't necessarily stop popping up just because he's gone. Just ask Future Trunks.

Eh. Goku has a long time to go still, and with him and Vegeta in their eternal ****-waving contest the Earth should be pretty set up for neverending powerups for several more decades.

I fully understand Chi-Chi not wanting her son to have to be the sucker that ends up with a life that is nothing but training and fighting and nothing else fulfilling. Especially because Gohan doesn't even LIKE fighting, he just did because he had to (we may remember Piccolo had to yell this one at Goku at one point). Well, now with Goten clearly poised to inherit most of his father's traits, what reason is there for poor Gohan to continue wasting his life getting ever more jacked forever and ever to save the world, instead of living the life he wants as a scientist and scholar and help make the world worth saving instead?

Anteros

2017-01-15, 04:46 AM

Eh. Goku has a long time to go still, and with him and Vegeta in their eternal ****-waving contest the Earth should be pretty set up for neverending powerups for several more decades.

I fully understand Chi-Chi not wanting her son to have to be the sucker that ends up with a life that is nothing but training and fighting and nothing else fulfilling. Especially because Gohan doesn't even LIKE fighting, he just did because he had to (we may remember Piccolo had to yell this one at Goku at one point). Well, now with Goten clearly poised to inherit most of his father's traits, what reason is there for poor Gohan to continue wasting his life getting ever more jacked forever and ever to save the world, instead of living the life he wants as a scientist and scholar and help make the world worth saving instead?

Because anyone can be a scientist. Only three people on the entire planet even have the potential power to protect it while Goku is gone. It's entirely understandable that he'd rather be a scholar than a fighter, but it's also entirely irresponsible. You can't even really argue he does it for his family, because he's perfectly content to let Hercule provide for them.

There's a middle ground anyway. Gohan was never going to end up like Goku who literally hit his head and suffered brain damage as a child. He could be a scientist and still train. Actually, it looks like the show is starting to take him in that direction.

Tono

2017-01-15, 06:56 AM

Drascin

2017-01-15, 09:01 AM

Because anyone can be a scientist. Only three people on the entire planet even have the potential power to protect it while Goku is gone. It's entirely understandable that he'd rather be a scholar than a fighter, but it's also entirely irresponsible. You can't even really argue he does it for his family, because he's perfectly content to let Hercule provide for them.

So, basically, "you are strong and therefore you must sacrifice your own happiness and fulfillment for the rest of your life in order to do what the rest of us need you to do, and we will not even thank you for it, because it's your duty". Yeah, so that's how you create supervillains. Plus, again, his own little brother clearly has a much more suitable temperament for it, and his dad is certainly going to last enough for said little brother to get up to par.

There's a middle ground anyway. Gohan was never going to end up like Goku who literally hit his head and suffered brain damage as a child. He could be a scientist and still train. Actually, it looks like the show is starting to take him in that direction.

Not enough to keep up. The show has been pretty clear that keeping up requires a lot of dedication, and people get left in the dust practically immediately the moment they stop training. And guess what, so does becoming a scientist - a PhD is a bunch of years of full-time dedication.

The kind of stuff Goku does, unlike a lot of Shonens, is not all inborn power. Goku works out every day of the week without pause, and so does Vegeta, because Saiyans are mentally weird. One of Chi-Chi's biggest complaints always was that Goku was a horribly absent father because he spent like all his time training. You can't keep up that kind of regime and study up for a PhD, let alone multiple as Gohan probably has, simultaneously.

Maybe now that he is properly set up, with his diplomas earned and his reasearch well underway, he can afford to spend time training again? Who knows. But I don't blame for looking at his options between "spend all my life muscling up only for Goku to end up being the only important person anyway" and "spend all my life doing actually fulfilling stuff and actually being with my family every now and then", and choosing the second.

Not to mention that (and I hate to keep going back to it but) at the end of GT doesnt he publish books about Ki control? There has to be PLENTY to study surrounding ki control and the uses thereof. As a scientist professor type I would think he would eventually get around to studying in depth all the things that hes seen. You know, time travel, FTL travel, lasers, Flying people and the ability to everything that he does. DB obviously shows that all that is way out of the norm.

Interestingly, in the failed MMO, which was helped by Toriyama, Gohan was in fact credited as the reason why there could be so many powered Human player characters (which was a necessity because MMO) - Gohan had studied Ki thoroughly and released his findings and now anyone could learn all kinds of stuff. Now a very large chunk of humanity could use Ki, instead of it being limited to, like, Tenshinhan and Krillin.

Anteros

2017-01-15, 10:23 AM

So, basically, "you are strong and therefore you must sacrifice your own happiness and fulfillment for the rest of your life in order to do what the rest of us need you to do, and we will not even thank you for it, because it's your duty". Yeah, so that's how you create supervillains. Plus, again, his own little brother clearly has a much more suitable temperament for it, and his dad is certainly going to last enough for said little brother to get up to par.

Not enough to keep up. The show has been pretty clear that keeping up requires a lot of dedication, and people get left in the dust practically immediately the moment they stop training. And guess what, so does becoming a scientist - a PhD is a bunch of years of full-time dedication.

The kind of stuff Goku does, unlike a lot of Shonens, is not all inborn power. Goku works out every day of the week without pause, and so does Vegeta, because Saiyans are mentally weird. One of Chi-Chi's biggest complaints always was that Goku was a horribly absent father because he spent like all his time training. You can't keep up that kind of regime and study up for a PhD, let alone multiple as Gohan probably has, simultaneously.

Maybe now that he is properly set up, with his diplomas earned and his reasearch well underway, he can afford to spend time training again? Who knows. But I don't blame for looking at his options between "spend all my life muscling up only for Goku to end up being the only important person anyway" and "spend all my life doing actually fulfilling stuff and actually being with my family every now and then", and choosing the second.

You're twisting my words. I never said he had to train against his will. I said he's irresponsible for not training. He should be mature enough to realize that he has responsibilities. I also don't know why you keep bringing up Goten. Goten hasn't shown anywhere near Gohan's aptitude. Gohan is supposed to be something like 100 times stronger than him.

The second part of your statement makes no sense. He doesn't know he's an anime character. He doesn't know Goku will always be the main character. What he does know is that he's almost gotten everyone he loves killed at least twice due to slacking off. (Dabura/Buu and Golden Freeza)

I can understand not wanting to be a fighter, but ignoring his responsibilities and putting everyone around him at risk in the hopes someone else can take care of it is irresponsible no matter what he personally wants in life.

The Troubadour

2017-01-15, 10:41 AM

I also don't know why you keep bringing up Goten. Goten hasn't shown anywhere near Gohan's aptitude. Gohan is supposed to be something like 100 times stronger than him.

Not only that, but Goten is also a slacker, much like present!Trunks.

What he does know is that he's almost gotten everyone he loves killed at least twice due to slacking off. (Dabura/Buu and Golden Freeza)

To be fair, it was entirely reasonable to assume he would never have to fight again, or at least never have to fight at a level above Freeza's original power.
That said, Gohan has already stated he acknowledges he has to be strong enough to defend his loved ones if another enemy appears. It's not unreasonable to assume he can conciliate both life paths, that of a scholar and that of a warrior, even if it will be difficult to do so (a.k.a. the classic Spider-Man problem).

Rater202

2017-01-15, 11:25 AM

Not to mention that (and I hate to keep going back to it but) at the end of GT doesnt he publish books about Ki control? There has to be PLENTY to study surrounding ki control and the uses thereof. As a scientist professor type I would think he would eventually get around to studying in depth all the things that hes seen. You know, time travel, FTL travel, lasers, Flying people and the ability to everything that he does. DB obviously shows that all that is way out of the norm.

That wasn't GT. That was the backstory of Online, which ignored GT and which Toriyama did designs and had creative control over.

Interestingly enough, if we take Mr. Satan's comments about wanting Pan to train and become the heir to Satan Style martial arts to indicate that this will happen, we may well be heading towards the Online Timeline becuase in Online's backstory Pan was a master martial artist who took over Mr. Satan's Dojo at the age of 16.

Drascin

2017-01-15, 12:14 PM

You're twisting my words. I never said he had to train against his will. I said he's irresponsible for not training. He should be mature enough to realize that he has responsibilities.

I'm twisting nothing. I'm just saying things in less noble-sounding words. Gohan's "responsibility" was to spend the rest of his life doing something of no value, enjoyment, or fulfillment to himself, just in case another psycho from space showed up. And that sucks and I can entirely understand that the second it looked like someone else could hold the fort he jumped the **** out and only reluctantly jumped back in when it became absolutely necessary (by which point, of course, he was out of practice and get his behind summarily kicked).

Goku can find happiness in it because Goku has the brains of a pea and most importantly he adores fighting, so for him it's basically an awesome hobby. For Gohan it would be a dreary job. A job he wouldn't have chosen, he wouldn't have liked, and which he wouldn't even get paid for on top of everything. I don't know about you, but I know I wouldn't last years doing a thing I didn't enjoy for no personal advantage at all, just on the chance that one day in the future it would prove absolutely essential. Six months at the outside.

I also don't know why you keep bringing up Goten. Goten hasn't shown anywhere near Gohan's aptitude. Gohan is supposed to be something like 100 times stronger than him.

Because he's supposed to be pretty good anyway, and Goten/Trunks combo should have been more than enough to defend the Earth from anything that is not ridiculous escalation. I mean, Gotenks had a similar-to-better showing against Buu than Mystic Gohan did, and they were like bloody eight or something like that. By the time they were teenagers it could be expected they could take over the business.

The second part of your statement makes no sense. He doesn't know he's an anime character. He doesn't know Goku will always be the main character. What he does know is that he's almost gotten everyone he loves killed at least twice due to slacking off. (Dabura/Buu and Golden Freeza)

Basic pattern recognition is a thing. Remember all the times his supposed hidden great potential mostly meant he got a hit in before getting kicked? Or that time where he was explicitly said to be the strongest man on Earth and built up only to be punked by Buu inside of five minutes? I mean, seeing his track record, is it really that weird that Gohan might have the Krillin realization that hey, wait a minute, I am never actually succeeding at protecting anyone or managing to do anything of note, perhaps it's not actually worth it to spend the rest of my life training my ass off in increasingly demanding and harsh training regimes just so I can fail to save the day anyway? Because to me that sounds like something that a person that doesn't want to do this anyway would come to, eventually.

Indarra

2017-01-15, 01:41 PM

Only three? I count Vegeta, Goten, Trunks, 17, 18, Buu and Piccolo. Frankly, Tenshinhan and Krillin should also be ranked up there assuming a Freeza-level threat, since Tenshinhan kept up a fight against Semi-Perfect Cell and Krillin was confirmed stronger.
If they're ever in a pinch, Bulma should be able to build another 16 considering how many schematics she and Dr. Briefs ran.

The Troubadour

2017-01-15, 03:20 PM

I mean, Gotenks had a similar-to-better showing against Buu than Mystic Gohan did, and they were like bloody eight or something like that. By the time they were teenagers it could be expected they could take over the business.

Nope. Boo managed to get a few hits in against Gotenks, but was utterly powerless against Gohan. Plus, both Goten and Trunks neglect training as they grow older, as can be seen in the original epilogue for the series.

Frankly, Tenshinhan and Krillin should also be ranked up there assuming a Freeza-level threat, since Tenshinhan kept up a fight against Semi-Perfect Cell and Krillin was confirmed stronger.

"Keep up a fight" is a very generous estimate on your part. He used up all of his energy to hold Cell down for a while, but notice that Cell wasn't actually harmed by any of the Shin Kikohos.
When was Krillin confirmed stronger than Tenshinhan?

Rater202

2017-01-15, 03:36 PM

Nope. Boo managed to get a few hits in against Gotenks, but was utterly powerless against Gohan. Plus, both Goten and Trunks neglect training as they grow older, as can be seen in the original epilogue for the series.

"Keep up a fight" is a very generous estimate on your part. He used up all of his energy to hold Cell down for a while, but notice that Cell wasn't actually harmed by any of the Shin Kikohos.
When was Krillin confirmed stronger than Tenshinhan?

He never was.

Krillin is the Strongest Pure Human, but Tien is only mostly human--he has alien Ancestry(something about a tribe of three eyed aliens living on the earth) so that might not be counting him. My understanding is that Tien is the strongest human in general, Krillin is the strongest Pure Human, and MR. Satan is the strongest human who can't consciously control his ki(with Base speed, strength, durability, and agility being at or near peak human capability without ki or supernatural assistance.) but I could be wrong on those listings.

On the Tien thing, unless that was filler he put up a pretty good fight against Super Buu W/ Gotenks+Piccolo Absorbed.

JadedDM

2017-01-15, 03:53 PM

I will say this: Gohan and Videl are relationship goals. (Also, is it weird he still refers to her as Videl-san? I'm no expert on Japanese honorifics, but that seems kind of overly formal for your wife? Or is Gohan really that polite and proper?)

It was also nice to see Videl having some kind of personality again. I started rewatching the Great Saiyaman Saga recently, and it's sometimes difficult to remember that the Videl there and the Videl in Super are supposed to be the same person.

It's good to see that Gohan is a good father. But then again, he learned from the best. I am referring to Piccolo, of course.

The Troubadour

2017-01-15, 04:43 PM

He never was. [...]

Hm! That makes sense. So even Tien underwent "Z" 's "they're actually aliens" retcon.

On the Tien thing, unless that was filler he put up a pretty good fight against Super Buu W/ Gotenks+Piccolo Absorbed.

Didn't he only use a Kikoho to blast away one of Boo's energy bolts? That's what happened in the manga, at least.

Rater202

2017-01-15, 05:21 PM

Hm! That makes sense. So even Tien underwent "Z" 's "they're actually aliens" retcon.

I honestly don't think it was a retcon.

When Goku went Great Ape at Pilaf's castle, Oolong said something to the effect of "maybe he's a space alien?"

And while King Piccolo is presented as a demon... he's bald, green, and has antenna. He's solid black eyes away from being the stereotype of a space alien.

Anteros

2017-01-15, 06:57 PM

Tien's "contribution" against Buu was getting one-shot by a kick from a pair of legs that weren't even attached to Buu at the time. Toriyama stated Krillin was the strongest human, and I'm personally convinced he was including Tien in that assessment. If you want to believe otherwise there's nothing stopping you though.

I'm twisting nothing. I'm just saying things in less noble-sounding words. Gohan's "responsibility" was to spend the rest of his life doing something of no value, enjoyment, or fulfillment to himself, just in case another psycho from space showed up. And that sucks and I can entirely understand that the second it looked like someone else could hold the fort he jumped the **** out and only reluctantly jumped back in when it became absolutely necessary (by which point, of course, he was out of practice and get his behind summarily kicked).

Goku can find happiness in it because Goku has the brains of a pea and most importantly he adores fighting, so for him it's basically an awesome hobby. For Gohan it would be a dreary job. A job he wouldn't have chosen, he wouldn't have liked, and which he wouldn't even get paid for on top of everything. I don't know about you, but I know I wouldn't last years doing a thing I didn't enjoy for no personal advantage at all, just on the chance that one day in the future it would prove absolutely essential. Six months at the outside.

Because he's supposed to be pretty good anyway, and Goten/Trunks combo should have been more than enough to defend the Earth from anything that is not ridiculous escalation. I mean, Gotenks had a similar-to-better showing against Buu than Mystic Gohan did, and they were like bloody eight or something like that. By the time they were teenagers it could be expected they could take over the business.

Basic pattern recognition is a thing. Remember all the times his supposed hidden great potential mostly meant he got a hit in before getting kicked? Or that time where he was explicitly said to be the strongest man on Earth and built up only to be punked by Buu inside of five minutes? I mean, seeing his track record, is it really that weird that Gohan might have the Krillin realization that hey, wait a minute, I am never actually succeeding at protecting anyone or managing to do anything of note, perhaps it's not actually worth it to spend the rest of my life training my ass off in increasingly demanding and harsh training regimes just so I can fail to save the day anyway? Because to me that sounds like something that a person that doesn't want to do this anyway would come to, eventually.

Gohan is the one who saved everyone against Cell. In fact, Freeza, Cell, Buu, Freeza round 3 would have all killed everyone if not for him fighting. You're saying that he has enough pattern recognition to realize he's a character in an anime, but not enough to realize that the Earth faces continually escalating threats that require his attention?

I also don't buy that he believes being stronger than Namek saga Freeza is enough to defend the Earth considering there have been at least 9 antagonists more powerful than that since then.

Lord Raziere

2017-01-15, 08:04 PM

I also don't buy that he believes being stronger than Namek saga Freeza is enough to defend the Earth considering there have been at least 9 antagonists more powerful than that since then.

And depending on how you count them, some of those antagonists were robots built right here on Earth that were stronger than saiyans after three years of training after Freeza, so...its not even the alien problem. At any time, someone in a cave with a box of scraps could make something capable of destroying worlds.

Gohan isn't thinking anime-like, he is thinking reasonably. He knows that he just wants to live a normal life, but he also recognizes that maybe Goku despite his track record, isn't going to always save the day forever to make sure that normal life is there. the viewers know that he will probably fail and Goku will get the win anyways, but a smart person's perspective its better to have backups in case Goku doesn't come through. Its not implausible that something like the Cell Saga could happen again with Goku getting hit by disease or being killed as a last ditch effort. Or being killed by sacrificing himself to take out Raditz.

So there are three scenarios where Goku just straight up died, and at least one where he didn't come back. doesn't sound like an invincible hero to me. Especially not from an in-universe standpoint.

Tono

2017-01-16, 03:18 AM

Interestingly, in the failed MMO, which was helped by Toriyama, Gohan was in fact credited as the reason why there could be so many powered Human player characters (which was a necessity because MMO) - Gohan had studied Ki thoroughly and released his findings and now anyone could learn all kinds of stuff. Now a very large chunk of humanity could use Ki, instead of it being limited to, like, Tenshinhan and Krillin.

That wasn't GT. That was the backstory of Online, which ignored GT and which Toriyama did designs and had creative control over.

Interestingly enough, if we take Mr. Satan's comments about wanting Pan to train and become the heir to Satan Style martial arts to indicate that this will happen, we may well be heading towards the Online Timeline becuase in Online's backstory Pan was a master martial artist who took over Mr. Satan's Dojo at the age of 16.

Ah yes, you are correct. Its been a while and my head combined the two. Thank you.

Lord Raziere

2017-01-16, 03:30 AM

Interestingly, in the failed MMO, which was helped by Toriyama, Gohan was in fact credited as the reason why there could be so many powered Human player characters (which was a necessity because MMO) - Gohan had studied Ki thoroughly and released his findings and now anyone could learn all kinds of stuff. Now a very large chunk of humanity could use Ki, instead of it being limited to, like, Tenshinhan and Krillin.

Yeah I always thought that was a good role for him- he may not be the best fighter, but his smarts combined with knowledge of ki techniques could make him a superb teacher for everyone else and thus protect Earth in a more reliable manner than Goku ever could simply by making sure there will always be enough fighters around for another Goku-level fighter to emerge again and teach people these techniques even better. And it would be a good way to finally combine both his fighter life and his work life in a way that would be comfortable for him. Let Gohan release the book, teach the first generation of Earth's new defenders how to fight and let them go forth to become awesome by themselves. He would be both living up to his scientist and smarts role while at the same time living up to the duty to defend the Earth.

The Troubadour

2017-01-16, 08:50 AM

I also don't buy that he believes being stronger than Namek saga Freeza is enough to defend the Earth considering there have been at least 9 antagonists more powerful than that since then.

Well, we know there were no threats in outer space which compared to Freeza, considering the way he's spoken of (even by King Kai, who would know better) during the Namek arc. Gero was dead and no one else on Earth was capable of creating something like the Androids or Cell, Dabura was a completely unknown factor (even the Kaioshin was surprised to see he was serving Bobidi), and Boo falls under the same issue as the Androids - dead creator, no one else knew how to create something like that again (otherwise, why would the creator's own son spend so much time looking for Boo instead of making his own?). Also, it's arguable whether Androids 14 and 15 actually were stronger than Freeza (or were even close in power to him), considering pre-fusion!Piccolo can defeat them easily in direct combat, and I really doubt Bobidi's other champions (the guy from a 10G planet and the one which eats light) were even close to Freeza in power, considering how easily they were handled by untransformed Goku and Vegeta.

Really, the best argument to there just not being that many powerful beings out there is that nothing at all happened in the time between Cell's defeat and Boo's awakening, and in spite of "Super", Goku does say the world has been at peace for a long time after Boo in the original epilogue. Even in "Super", who could predict there was a God of Destruction, much less that he was so powerful (considering the strongest other god we had seen, the Kaioshin, wasn't as strong as Cell)? Or that someone could resurrect Freeza with the Dragon Balls?

Lord Raziere

2017-01-16, 09:00 AM

Well yeah, at the same time, Dragon Ball is actually pretty peaceful outside of a few rare beings who can actually wield ki. We ARE talking about a series about the top 5-10 fighters in the Universe, only 2 of which are any way comparable to the Gods of Destruction, who aren't even comparable to the top five of all Universes. like, we get one single villain who can destroy a lot per arc and nothing else, Freeza was the exception for having a lot of minions. DB Super is kind of what happens when your wuxia or shonen protagonist gets to the universe-killer point: there is so little people who have made it to the same point you have, that the people that can actually give you a good fight anymore can literally be counted one hand. To wit, the people that can give Goku a good fight:

1. Beerus
2. Vegeta
3. Hit
4. Champa

Akisa

2017-01-16, 10:41 AM

Shouldn't faux god Future Trunks be included on that last list?

Rater202

2017-01-16, 12:05 PM

Shouldn't faux god Future Trunks be included on that last list?

I don't think that was Faux God.

Super Saiyan Rage, if you take Heroes as a Relaible source, is basically a super saiyan form you get when you hit a rage breaking point while already super saiyan 2--it's basically an alternate form of Super Saiyan 3 from what I've put together.

Which actually makes sense as call back--Super Saiyan Grade 3 is a 100%(X100 over SSJ1's X50) increase in power over base Super Saiyan, gotten entirely through training. It's an artificial transformation that puts ridiculous strain on the body, burns power like crazy, and slows you down considerably. Super Saiyan 2 is a natural 100% increase over Base Super Saiyan obtained by rage breaking point while already Super Saiyan(at least that's how Gohan got it) that is considerably less stressful on the body with more easily controlled power

Super Saiyan 3 is a transformation obtained solely through training that puts considerably strain on the body and burns power like crazy... It's entirely possible that SSJ3 is an artificially transformation, like SSJ Grade's 2 and 3, and that Super Saiyan Rage is the "natural" way to reach SSJ3's level of power. I think we'd need word of Toriyama or a reappearance of Future Trunks to be know for sure, but it certainly seems plausibly in my mind at least till we get more concrete details.

As for why Blue? Well, Vegeta refers to Super Saiyan Blue as the strongest form of Super Saiyan when talking to Cabba. Maybe the Blue is less a sign of it having God power and maybe more of a sign of just how much power the transformation gives? Or maybe Saiyans can just naturally reach god levels of power by getting strong enough--Goku cheated with SSJG and Vegeta was training with a God and Angel... but Vegeta never went SSJG as far as we know, so his body didn't absorb any God Ki, so for him and Goku to have both unlocked the same God form implies that it's a natural state saiyans can acquire. And Supr Saiyan Rage brings Trunks within spitting distance of that form without giving him the divine energy needed to access that level of power?

Lord Raziere

2017-01-16, 06:27 PM

Shouldn't faux god Future Trunks be included on that last list?

Your right, Half-God Trunks is five.

Devonix

2017-01-16, 07:05 PM

Anteros

2017-01-17, 09:27 PM

Here's hoping that Krillin and the others will be able to access God Ki and be put on even footing with Goku or at least close enough. I for one would have no problem with a huge jump in power for the rest of the cast. There's really nothing stopping the writers from doing it.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, and it undercuts everything Goku and Vegeta have achieved. I can see one or two characters making the jump to usefulness, but giving everyone a powerup is too much.

The Troubadour

2017-01-17, 10:08 PM

I think the most we'll see is Piccolo, Tien and Krillin fighting someone close to their own power level instead of them getting closer to the Saiyans.

Anteros

2017-01-17, 10:39 PM

I think the most we'll see is Piccolo, Tien and Krillin fighting someone close to their own power level instead of them getting closer to the Saiyans.

That's about what I expect as well. Plus, let's be honest. Goku and Vegeta are both going to do something dumb and get taken out at some point, and it will be up to someone like Krillin or Gohan to save the day. It's practically a Dragonball tradition.

Devonix

2017-01-17, 11:28 PM

It doesn't make a lot of sense, and it undercuts everything Goku and Vegeta have achieved. I can see one or two characters making the jump to usefulness, but giving everyone a powerup is too much.

Well since God Ki is a completely separate scale that had little to do with how strong Goku and Vegeta were before posessing it. I don't see a reason why giving the other characters acess to it and training with it, would be too much. It would simply level the playing field a bit more. And it doesn't make any less sense than anything else that happens in Dragon Ball.

Anteros

2017-01-18, 03:30 AM

Devonix

2017-01-18, 07:20 AM

It doesn't make sense narratively. I'm sure you can justify it in universe if you want.

I don't really get the DragonBall fandom's obsession with power levels though. A character doesn't have to be the strongest to be good.

My obsession isn't with power levels. I flat out hate that nonsense. And it's the reason why characters keep getting left behind. What I am tired of is characters becoming irrelevant in the show because of the huge leaps in power and I want something to level the playing field. Super does a far better job of it than Z by having a lot more character focused episodes rather than fighting all the time. But I would still enjoy seeing the other characters actually get involved and be relevant when the fighting does happen, rather than waiting for one of the Sayians to do everything.

Anteros

2017-01-18, 07:31 AM

My obsession isn't with power levels. I flat out hate that nonsense. And it's the reason why characters keep getting left behind. What I am tired of is characters becoming irrelevant in the show because of the huge leaps in power and I want something to level the playing field. Super does a far better job of it than Z by having a lot more character focused episodes rather than fighting all the time. But I would still enjoy seeing the other characters actually get involved and be relevant when the fighting does happen, rather than waiting for one of the Sayians to do everything.

Well...everyone fought Freeza, Trunks had his own arc, and the next arc is a tournament with everyone sans Yamcha. I'm happy enough with everyone's contributions but I understand your complaint.

Devonix

2017-01-18, 07:45 AM

Well...everyone fought Freeza, Trunks had his own arc, and the next arc is a tournament with everyone sans Yamcha. I'm happy enough with everyone's contributions but I understand your complaint.

Yeah they're doing a much better job I agree. I just see this as a chance to do even better. I'm glad we've moved at least a bit farther away from the days where the entire plot of an arc is wait for goku to either stop being dead, stop being on another planet, stop being sick in bed. Or stop being whatever he was in the Buu arc before he shows up and stops the problem all by himself.

Rater202

2017-01-18, 12:19 PM

Apparently this week and Next week's new episodes are going to be a mini-arc with Goku training with Krilling and Master Roshi like in the old days, and since those two are going to be in the tournament this might result in the two of them getting a bit closer to Goku's power level.

I mean, you can call what we've been getting filler, but it's apparently canon to the Anime(excetpting possible the Arale episode) and we've demonstrated that Gohan is durable enough to impress a God of Destruction, and we're about to get a krillin and Roshi training focused mini-arc, so who knows?

Piccolo is established to be training with Gohan, so if Gohan is getting stronger so is Piccolo--and in the last tournament Piccolo only lost because Frost cheated, even though Frost was much stronger than Piccolo, so I think Piccolo is comparable overall to Goku and Getes already.

17 and 18 are the sticking points: They can learn new skills, but their power levels are set in stone IIRC, they can't get stronger or weaker without doing something or other to their infinite energy generators. Bulma could probably do that, but it sort of feels against the spirit of a Tournement to field two cybernetic super soldiers already, and I'm not 100% sure that 17 and 18 would want someone to tinker around with them anymore, so that's questionable.

Buu is Buu. He's already got the power of two Gods plus whatever power he managed to keep after being split from the original Buu.

And Tien has a reputation of just showing up and being strong enough to hurt or at least inconvenience the new Bad Guy a bit,so we don't have to worry about him.

Fine Dining Set

2017-01-20, 08:50 PM

Armok

2017-01-20, 09:14 PM

I'm really interested to see what they'll do with Buu. I'm not a huge fan of how he's essentially been a gag character since Super began, especially since he's easily the most powerful cast member now below Goku and Vegeta.

If they can get him serious about fighting or maybe play off his ability to absorb people and get stronger, it'd be awesome. Hopefully this tournament won't have a written test...

Rater202

2017-01-20, 10:59 PM

I was under the impression that, during an interview, Toriyama said specifically that 17 & 18 could become stronger if they trained. I'll try and find it.

He cited 18 learning the Destructo Disk as an example of them getting stronger. So, in context, stronger is "more skilled." Raw power is still determined by how much power their infinite energy units can provide at one time.

Anteros

2017-01-21, 12:51 AM

Being more skilled has always directly translated into raw power in Dragonball though.

Rater202

2017-01-21, 01:02 AM

Being more skilled has always directly translated into raw power in Dragonball though.

If that was the case then Master Roshi would be the single most powerful person on Earth because he's had literally centuries to train and practice his skills. Also note that Friza was born with raw power and never trained a day in his life, nd Kid Buu being more powerful than most Gods despite being a near mindless berserker with no skill, only instinct.

It's more probable that Characters like Goku and Vegeta just happen to get more powerful as they become more skilled, rather than skill=Raw power. And that's assuming that you don't go with the headcanon that the Saiyans don't get much stronger in their base forms after reaching Super Saiyan(Until post BoG), they just seem significantly stronger because they keep unlocking and mastering stronger and stronger transformations.

Lord Raziere

2017-01-21, 01:10 AM

More evidence that more skill =/= more raw power:

Trunks super saiyan 3rd grade form. Too bulky, too slow, too inflexible. If he had been a more skilled fighter, he would've recognized the weaknesses like Vegeta and not even go into that form. Instead he took it just for pure power thinking it'll be enough, and lost.

The fact that in Super he fakes out Vegeta with it in his spar shows that he has progressed very far in his training in skill as well as power.

Anteros

2017-01-21, 10:16 AM

Ok, but there's plenty of times we've also seen a character master a new technique or training something skill based and another character explicitly remark that their power has increased. In Dragonball universe skill often means ki control, which translates to more raw power. I'll concede that there are plenty of instances where this is not the case as well though.

Mato

2017-01-21, 12:34 PM

Ok, but there's plenty of times we've also seen a character master a new technique or training something skill based and another character explicitly remark that their power has increased.When using the kamehameha Goku's power level increases. Since PLs very and can be suppressed or powered up higher, just attempting to focus your ki into the technique's initial ball of energy produces a measurable increase on a Scouter even through the fighter them selves have not actually increased their maximum ki in any way.

Lord Raziere

2017-01-21, 03:23 PM

When using the kamehameha Goku's power level increases. Since PLs very and can be suppressed or powered up higher, just attempting to focus your ki into the technique's initial ball of energy produces a measurable increase on a Scouter even through the fighter them selves have not actually increased their maximum ki in any way.

Exactly. This is why PL's aren't reliable. It can result in attacks that have higher PL's than the person launching them simply because its all focused and refined. Its why a skill-based Roshi can keep up in a battle that many fans would say far surpasses him- he knows how to focus and use his ki right to kick ass with what little he has, instead of needing tons of it.

Or why Piccolo was a viable in fighter in the Champa tournament- he may not have won, but in the fight he did participate in, it was clear he was one move away from winning.

The great thing about not having PL's anymore is that this actually allows MORE people to get moments to shine, because you don't have people going "but his PL is xxxx and not yyyyy! he should not have won!". Its wasted potential, yes, aside from the one moment where Future Trunks defeats Zamasu and Roshi and Tien actually having a chance to fight for a change, but its there.

Eldariel

2017-01-21, 03:57 PM

It kinda defeats the whole purpose of yet more transformations for the saiyans, but whatever. The whole show would've always been better off without the whole transformation nonsense since that's specifically restricted to the space monkeys and space monkey/gaian monkey hybrids. Or at least if it were made less significant; but Toriyama loves multiplying by even numbers so it can't be helped I guess. At least he's writing it so that none of that matters, at least very much. Like, the 10x Kaioken in SSB clearly didn't multiply Goku's power by 10.

It's nice to have the whole cast be somewhat relevant; in Z it was kinda silly that the premise of the show was the whole group of Z-Fighters, but practically speaking Goku, Gohan, Vegeta and Piccolo did 99% of the relevant stuff with guest appearances by Tienshinhan and Krillin in the pre-Android sagas. The whole really works better when the heroic ensemble actually has a semblance of relevance.

Rater202

2017-01-21, 11:26 PM

There's some preview images out for the Tournament arc.

You know how people have wanted kickass females or female super saiyans?One of the Fighters from another Universe is a Female Legendary Super Saiyan that is just as ripped as Broly.

Anteros

2017-01-22, 12:28 AM

Lord Raziere

2017-01-22, 12:32 AM

Rater202

2017-01-22, 12:51 AM

Could you link me where you saw that? I haven't seen it yet.

Spoilery Link (https://www.facebook.com/GojiitaAF/videos/1038670116278955/)

Anteros

2017-01-22, 01:05 AM

Neat. Thanks for the link.

Lord Raziere

2017-01-22, 01:15 AM

Spoilery Link (https://www.facebook.com/GojiitaAF/videos/1038670116278955/)

Yup..... yup. I have seen only two seconds of this person, and I already like her miles better than Broly. like, judging by appearance alone before and after her transformation, she looks like a petite, elegant lady to contrast her LGSS form. If Super can pull off a female Broly that has more characterization than actual Broly, I'll gladly be her fan and discard Broly forever. Just like, "ok she has a personality in her base form that can be comedic or heartwarming or just y'know make her a person? DONE. Who cares about Broly anymore?"

and Super so far has given me no reason to think it can't pull it off. its gotten good character moments for a lot of people both new and old, so I'm confident about this.

Mato

2017-01-22, 09:08 PM

Spoilery Link (https://www.facebook.com/GojiitaAF/videos/1038670116278955/)
One of the gods of destruction is a clown!

Rater202

2017-01-22, 09:22 PM

One of the gods of destruction is a clown!

And his attendant angel is female with pig tails. At least one commentator has made a Joker/Harley Quinn connection.

Lord Raziere

2017-01-22, 09:51 PM

And his attendant angel is female with pig tails. At least one commentator has made a Joker/Harley Quinn connection.

Gods above. Joker as a God of Destruction. It fits, but just imagine how terrifying THAT Universe would be.

though it would explain why his counterpart god is a black fluff-ball with bat ears: his counterpart God of Destruction is batman!

Armok

2017-01-23, 12:18 AM

Having just finished the last episode, I think it's one of my favorite "filler" episodes so far. Krillins always kinda been the fall guy, and its nice to see a plot actually tackle that and explore how he's dealing with it. Also, all those nods to classic DB!

Next episode better give us the sparring session we're all waiting for!

Mato

2017-01-23, 04:21 PM

And his attendant angel is female with pig tails. At least one commentator has made a Joker/Harley Quinn connection.Yeah I thought of that afterwards.

Also youtube is blowing up over a female version of Broli and we're off visual discussing themes and Krillian's character development. I like GitP's posts today :smallsmile:

Rater202

2017-01-23, 07:58 PM

Yeah I thought of that afterwards.

Also youtube is blowing up over a female version of Broli and we're off visual discussing themes and Krillian's character development. I like GitP's posts today :smallsmile:

Now, Vegeta just glared at Goku when he went to spar, and a text only preview says that Episode 77 will be both the start of the Tournament arc and have a heavily pregnant Bulma and a panicking expectant father Vegeta... If one leads to the other, then we're probably very, very close, timeline wise, to the start of the Tournament.

Meaning 1: Getting his confidence and fighting spirit restored will significantly boost Krillin's power, or 2: The tournament being team battles means that not everyone needs to be a power house and one of Krillin's other skills will help him contribute.

Likewise, since Roshi mentions that not even an immortal like himself can fight off the ravages of age when he tells Goku and Krillin to get the Paradise Plant. Perhaps the plant has some rejuvenation effect that would restore to Roshi some of the strength old age has taken from him, allowing him to fully compete with the centuries of skill he has? Or he's just there for all of those techniques he has but never taught anyone.

Or, as a third option, Roshi wasn't bluffing when he said he had a technique that makes you stronger in a pinch(probably created after the King Piccolo arc) and will teach it to Krillin.The thought occurs to me.

While Broly's place in the main is questionable, the concept of the Legendary Super Saiyan transformation is pretty solidly canon now, with the preview.

One of the signs of Broly being the Legendary Super Saiyan was being born with an insane power level(by infant standards) and an apparent instinctual ability to use Ki, even as an infant(protecting himself and Paragus with a shield and flying to a different planet).

I'd now note that baby Pan can fly on instinct and is strong enough that Future Trunks had to struggle to get his sword away from her.

Mato

2017-01-23, 08:26 PM

Rater202

2017-01-23, 09:00 PM

Bulma's pregnancy announcement will probably be handled in these pseudo-filler episodes just before the tournament.

#1 I think if Krillin can simply return to his previous level he'd be all right. He'd theoretically around Frieza's old power which puts him ahead of everyone but Hit out of Universe 6. #2 Krillin moving more towards a skill master instead of a power house would be great. #3 A lesser form of Kaio Ken maybe?

Also Toriyama is on record for claiming the films take place in different dimensions and now he's expanded out to having sixteen of them and killed four of them off. Broly has always been a part of franchise canon but not in a known continuity, maybe that'll change soon.

I'm pretty sure that toriyama wasn't referring to the 12 universe when he was talking about movie timelines.

Anyway, 1: Frost was about as strong as Post resurrection and Training Frieza minus the golden form and he was in the preview. Cabba in his base form was even with Vegeta in his base form(the difference between their power in SSJ can be explained by Vegeta being SSJ Grade 4/Full Power Super Saiyan while Cabba had just changed for the first time.) Not to mention they'll be 4 more members of Universe 6's team, and there are 100 more competitors from the other 10 universes. 2 Well, Krillin did become the New Turtle Sage inOnline's backstory, and there have been some hints heading that way.

Mato

2017-01-23, 09:49 PM

Anyway, 1: Frost was about as strong as Post resurrection and Training Frieza minus the golden form and he was in the preview.

Cabba in his base form was even with Vegeta in his base form(the difference between their power in SSJ can be explained by Vegeta being SSJ Grade 4/Full Power Super Saiyan while Cabba had just changed for the first time.)
:smallconfused:
Frost was failing to beat Piccolo who was last seen below 17's level and Piccolo is not as strong as Golden Frieza.

And Cabba was totally outclassed. You're taking Vegeta's statement we're even as fact when it's about as true as Goku's when he was fighting Vegeta during the Buu Saga. In the anime Cabba really doesn't do anything other than surprise Vegeta. Like Vegeta was able to counter Cabba's galick gun after Cabba already charged up and fired, and Cabba went into shock and awe at Vegeta's true non-god non-super ki. Over in the manga there's a panel depicting Cabba shoving two feet in Vegeta's chest and Vegta's like ooh that's cool. The fight is mostly about Vegeta being impressed with Cabba's display of skill, rather than his power. Vegeta kicks Cabba once and the kid is reduced to an arm-holding dirt-covered losing state.

Rater202

2017-01-23, 10:22 PM

:smallconfused:
Frost was failing to beat Piccolo who was last seen below 17's level and Piccolo is not as strong as Golden Frieza.

And Cabba was totally outclassed. You're taking Vegeta's statement we're even as fact when it's about as true as Goku's when he was fighting Vegeta during the Buu Saga. In the anime Cabba really doesn't do anything other than surprise Vegeta. Like Vegeta was able to counter Cabba's galick gun after Cabba already charged up and fired, and Cabba went into shock and awe at Vegeta's true non-god non-super ki. Over in the manga there's a panel depicting Cabba shoving two feet in Vegeta's chest and Vegta's like ooh that's cool. The fight is mostly about Vegeta being impressed with Cabba's display of skill, rather than his power. Vegeta kicks Cabba once and the kid is reduced to an arm-holding dirt-covered losing state.

I'm only going by the Anime, since it publishes more frequently and tends to come first.

I didn't Say frost was as strong as Golden Frieza. Frost handled himself pretty well against Goku up until they both got serious and Frost cheated. By my eye, and assuming an increase in Goku's power level between Ressurection F and the tournement, Frost seems to be a great deal more powerful than Namek Frieza, so with that and other clues I pegged him at Rez F levels, but without Golden Form. So basically, he's roughly as strong as Frieza was on earth in the appropriate form as far as I can tell.

Piccolo had been training with Gohan for an indeterminate amount of time. Considering how much good that training is doing for Gohan, it's probably done some good for piccolo. Regardless, Piccolo wasn't winning on power, he was winning on skill and strategy.

Cabba's Galick Gun was dead even with Vegeta's, so in terms of raw Ki power they're pretty even--Vegeta countered, but he didn't overcome it.

Now consider just how far past Frieza arc Frieza Vegeta is even in his base form. Team Universe 6 could probably stomp the hell out of all the bad guys from Z.

The Troubadour

2017-01-24, 06:27 AM

I'd now note that baby Pan can fly on instinct and is strong enough that Future Trunks had to struggle to get his sword away from her.

Because he was afraid of hurting her, not because she was stronger than his base form.

Rater202

2017-01-24, 10:58 AM

Because he was afraid of hurting her, not because she was stronger than his base form.

I never said she was stronger. She is, however, strong enough that he couldn't easily yank his sword from her grasp.That is hellaciously strong for an infant.

Mato

2017-01-24, 05:42 PM

I'm only going by the Anime, since it publishes more frequently and tends to come first.And as noted, same story there.

Frost handled himself pretty well against Goku:smallsigh:
Everyone seems to hold ok against Goku because he holds back. He could have beaten Majin Vegeta but decided to support Vegeta's ego, he could have beaten fat Buu but decided to let Gotanks handle it, he could have beaten kid Buu but wanted Vegeta to have a turn. It's a running theme, like all them forgetting to go super saiyen in the android 13 film or how Goku vs golden Frieza looks close but Vegeta could curbstomp him despite being weaker than Goku as Super depicts. Now try to actually watch the fight, here I can help you with that (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA9hhqabApg). Stage 3 Frost manages to bombard Goku who gets up unharmed and goes SSj1 for the sole reason of trying to convince Frost to take the fight seriously.

Regardless, Piccolo wasn't winning on power, he was winning on skill and strategy.Which barely exists in DBZ as speed/power are superior. Also you should probably find the youtube clip on that fight too.

Cabba's Galick Gun was dead even with Vegeta's, so in terms of raw Ki power they're pretty even--Vegeta countered, but he didn't overcome it.Actually Vegeta initiated quick-firing his (no charging, no stance, no name calling, etc) his blast after Cabba's already traveled over half the distance to him. Their beams are FTL and charging time for moves as well as increasing your PL/ki is a fact but Vegeta, whom we can plainly see is hanging back judging Cabba's capabilities, could match Cabba's all-out best attempt with a last minute counter out of his already on-hand energy supply. And then Vegeta let's loose a tiny bit of his real power sending Cabba into shock and awe. Here, watch the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeAKdAYnHXw). That first shock wave he releases has nothing to do with his SSj1 transformation.

Hit, the guy with two legendary abilities, is the only combatant in universe 6 that comes close to Vegeta & Goku's unheard of god-ranked powers that even the angels didn't even know was possible.

The Troubadour

2017-01-24, 10:51 PM

Piccolo was pretty clearly about to win against Frost when the latter cheated. Also, Goku wasn't holding back against Golden Freeza after he transformed into Blue, he was straight-up losing until Freeza's endurance started running out.

I never said she was stronger. She is, however, strong enough that he couldn't easily yank his sword from her grasp.That is hellaciously strong for an infant.

Is it any stronger than what we've seen of the few scenes we've had of baby Goku, though?

Lord Raziere

2017-01-24, 11:25 PM

Now, Vegeta just glared at Goku when he went to spar, and a text only preview says that Episode 77 will be both the start of the Tournament arc and have a heavily pregnant Bulma and a panicking expectant father Vegeta... If one leads to the other, then we're probably very, very close, timeline wise, to the start of the Tournament.

panicking Vegeta? over fatherhood? Thats.....I'm trying to wrap around my head around what Vegeta would be panicking about:
Vegeta: I'm worried. Is...is my baby girl going to be a strong fighter!? Will she want to be a strong fighter!? What if she doesn't!?!? Can I raise her right if she doesn't want to be a warrior!?! What about her Saiyan heritage!!?? what if she falls for a weakling?! What if she grows up and thinks me as this crazy man who rants about a race that no longer exists!? Worse: WHAT IF SHE LOSES TO KAKAROT'S CHILDREN!?

yeah, I'm going to assume that panicking expectant Vegeta is going to be hilarious.

Anteros

2017-01-25, 01:02 PM

I never said she was stronger. She is, however, strong enough that he couldn't easily yank his sword from her grasp.That is hellaciously strong for an infant.

It doesn't really work that way. Any adult can easily yank anything out of a real baby's hand with almost no effort, but since you don't want to rip their little fingers off or hurt them in any way so you sit there and slowly coax them into letting go.

Mato

2017-01-25, 01:51 PM

Also, Goku wasn't holding back against Golden Freeza after he transformed into Blue, he was straight-up losing until Freeza's endurance started running out.Eh, Frieza had an advantage but Goku got his own hits in. I'd have to rewatch Super's Sub to double check and the first video I tried was deleted. So here, have the English dub of Res F (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0hG55xq3ms#t=4m50s) where they specifically call out Frieza's stamina-drain isn't affecting him yet, Frieza immediately goes all in and Goku is immediately shown to have an advantage over Frieza. It's almost like SSB consumes a ton of stamina and upon figuring out Frieza would run out first Goku choose to start using more power than he was before or something. :smallwink:

It doesn't really work that way. Any adult can easily yank anything out of a real baby's hand with almost no effort, but since you don't want to rip their little fingers off or hurt them in any way so you sit there and slowly coax them into letting go.Now I want to see Bulla grasping Vegeta's hair with one of those baby death grips while he's just flying around.

Indarra

2017-01-25, 05:46 PM

If Vegeta defeats Hit in the first round that would be a decent opener to the tournament. He even has a technique that should counter time-skip: trapping Hit with those ki rings Goku was immobilized with during their Buu Saga fight.
Since Hit can't move while in his intangible mode, he couldn't escape with that either. Theoretically, if Vegeta can get one use of those in the fight should be a curb-stomp.

The Troubadour

2017-01-25, 06:12 PM

[...] where they specifically call out Frieza's stamina-drain isn't affecting him yet,

They say no such thing. In fact, for Goku and Vegeta to have noticed the Golden Form's weakness, Freeza's stamina had to have already started dropping at some earlier point. You'll also note that's the point in the fight when Goku starts moving around more and taking more evasive maneuvers, like he's trying to drag things out and let Freeza's stamina drop more and more.

Devonix

2017-01-25, 08:11 PM

They say no such thing. In fact, for Goku and Vegeta to have noticed the Golden Form's weakness, Freeza's stamina had to have already started dropping at some earlier point. You'll also note that's the point in the fight when Goku starts moving around more and taking more evasive maneuvers, like he's trying to drag things out and let Freeza's stamina drop more and more.

Yep, it's the good old Rope A Dope. Tire out a stronger opponent by making them punch themselves tired.

Rater202

2017-01-25, 09:12 PM

So, having gone over the most recent episode and the preview for the next one...The forest is ignoring Goku completly.

Note, there are hated enemies of Goku in the crowd of illusionary Warriors, but Goku beat them back then and he's miles beyond them now.

Other than King Piccolo, who he never met, everyone present is someone that Krillin has reason to hate a fear--and King Piccolo can easily be strong armed in.

Tambourine was the monster that murdered Krillin in cold blood while he had no chance to defend himself--and King Piccolo would be Tamrouine's even more powerful and evil father, so that's where he can be strong armed in.

Nappa and Vegeta were enemies that Krillin was utterly helpless against. Nappa brutalized and killed all of Krillin's friends in front him and nearly killed Krillin as well. Vegeta was even stronger and brutalized Goku--the strongest and most heroic person Krillin knows, the person who always wins.

The Ginyu Force, even the weakest rendered Gohan and Krillin helpless, with only Vegeta sniping Guldo saving their lives. Against Recoome Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohan together could only barely survive and this was after Krillin and Gohan had their latent potential released, and the other three were even stronger and more dangerous.

Frieza killed Krillin again, and once more Krillin was utterly helpless to prevent his own death as he's murdered in cold blue.

Cell ate the love of his life right in front of him, and taking anime only scenes into account Krillin's "never fail, probably an instant kill if it hits dead on" technique didn't even phase Cell on a direct hit.

And Super Buu killed Krillin and most of his loved ones by turning them into (self aware) candy and ate them.

This isn't a challenge for Goku. It's the forest attacking Krillin with everything he's afraid of.

Mato

2017-01-26, 03:18 PM

So here, have the English dub of Res F (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0hG55xq3ms#t=4m50s) where they specifically call out Frieza's stamina-drain isn't affecting him yetThey say no such thing.Someone thinks 10 seconds of his life isn't worth being right. :smallsmile:

This isn't a challenge for Goku. It's the forest attacking Krillin with everything he's afraid of.It's a nice theory and I wish it'll come true.

Fine Dining Set

2017-01-26, 03:51 PM

I hope that Vegeta gives Beerus a good fight in the near future. Super, thus far, has largely been about the relationship between mortals and gods, and that the strength of mortals can overwhelm gods. The way that Beerus humiliated King Vegeta and authorized the destruction of Planet Vegeta really makes me hope that Vegeta will be able to pay back Beerus in kind.

If Vegeta defeats Hit in the first round that would be a decent opener to the tournament. He even has a technique that should counter time-skip: trapping Hit with those ki rings Goku was immobilized with during their Buu Saga fight.
Since Hit can't move while in his intangible mode, he couldn't escape with that either. Theoretically, if Vegeta can get one use of those in the fight should be a curb-stomp.

I'd be disappointed if Hit lost so soon - it'd be nice to have him fight against some other universe characters and get a couple of victories.

The Troubadour

2017-01-26, 05:26 PM

Someone thinks 10 seconds of his life isn't worth being right. :smallsmile:

"Someone", indeed. Here's what I think you consider the relevant sentence:

"It's not affecting you yet, Freeza, but it's about to." And right after that, Goku, who until then - and by his own admission - was both excited about and scared of Freeza's power ("Yeah. I'm excited for this, but I didn't expect you to come this far, so my heart's pounding a bit, too"), fighting at full power ("Let's both go all-out. Nothing more up our sleeves") and at a disadvantage ("I hate to admit it, but I'm a little bit on the ropes here"), starts turning the tables on Freeza and performing the aforementioned "rope-a-dope".

Really, if you need more proof, just compare Vegeta's reaction to Goku offering to trade places (Goku: "Hey, Vegeta! You about ready to trade yet?" / Vegeta: "D-Don't start getting smarmy on me! You're the one that Freeza is after!") to him offering to take his turn after noticing Freeza's weakness (Vegeta: "Kakarrot, you can trade out now if you want" / Goku: "Aw, no fair! You must have spotted Freeza's weakness, too, right?").

Starwulf

2017-01-26, 07:02 PM

Man, from the way you all are describing the newest arc in Super, it honestly sounds like Toriyama ripped this one straight out of Dragon Ball Multiverse(a great comic btw, for those who haven't read it).

Rater202

2017-01-29, 02:47 PM

A thing I noticed watching the episode.The Double Kamehameha that Goku and Krillin did at the end. Normally the energy blasts just combine into a bigger blast, but in this case Krillin's weaker Kamehameha wrapped and spiraled around Goku's.

So Krillin helped in a way other than just giving his power to Goku. He didn't make the Kamehameha bigger, he augmented it somehow. He contributed in a way that was noticeable.

In dragon Ball Online, Krillin's thing with the New Turtle School was that even if you're not the strongest it doesn't matter because you don't need o be the strongest to contribute in a meaningful way, you just need to be there.

It didn't really work that way in gameplay, but it's not like that's much of an obstacle in an anime.

If we get Goten and Trunks deciding to learn about swordsmanship or Tien being a total Badass becuase he figured out a way to gather and concentrate massive amounts of power after studying Goku's Spirit Bomb, then I think it would be safe to say that we're heading towards Online's timeline.

Anteros

2017-01-29, 04:05 PM

Xihirli

2017-01-29, 11:25 PM

In the Goku Black arc with the Galick-Gun, Kamehameha, and Final Flash.

Indarra

2017-02-05, 12:45 PM

Lord Raziere

2017-02-05, 03:47 PM

So Goku directly starts the Omni-versal tournament, unaware that this means that any number of universes between eleven and one could be wiped out.
That's going to crush the poor guy.
Also, I flat-out do not believe that Goku is mentally capable of slacking off on his training to the point of being able to get hurt by a bullet. I... I don't know how that would even happen. That's weaker than he was before Z even started, right?

I think we should stop thinking in linear power levels where "This character is X powerful so Y". these people can still destroy planets, its just that as usual, Goku is overconfident, his flaw is that he always lets down his guard.

That said, Goku quite clearly caught all the other bullets, and the one that did hit him just kinda scraped him. I think he is freaking out over nothing.

Anteros

2017-02-05, 05:02 PM

I think we should stop thinking in linear power levels where "This character is X powerful so Y". these people can still destroy planets, its just that as usual, Goku is overconfident, his flaw is that he always lets down his guard.

That said, Goku quite clearly caught all the other bullets, and the one that did hit him just kinda scraped him. I think he is freaking out over nothing.

He got hit by bullets as a child with his guard down and they didn't hurt him.

Then again, that may have been anime only. I don't remember it happening in the manga.

Rater202

2017-02-05, 05:11 PM

In the new opening, we see a short glimpse of Gohan's aura.

Was it white or blue?

Spamotron

2017-02-05, 05:41 PM

He got hit by bullets as a child with his guard down and they didn't hurt him.

Then again, that may have been anime only. I don't remember it happening in the manga.

If it's the bit with Bulma shooting him with a SMG when angered that did happen in the manga and left comedic bruises that disappeared on the next page.

Xihirli

2017-02-05, 07:24 PM

I just want to say that I watched the intro several times. It did look amazing.

Lord Raziere

2017-02-05, 07:34 PM

In the new opening, we see a short glimpse of Gohan's aura.

Was it white or blue?

Only saw white, but don't quote me on that- those animation goes fast. I don't think there will be any bluper Gohan honestly. Toei would be hyping it up if they were. I think Gohan is just going to be Mystic again and it just so happens its going to be strong enough to stand on Vegeta and Goku's level. Super is doing a lot of work to break any conception that you have to be Super Saiyan Blue or suck:

-Beerus and Whis don't have any super forms and are still the strongest in Universe 7.
-F-Trunks beat Zamasu with SS Rage -because that is what its called.
-Hit has no super forms
-whatever alien is fighting Goku in the opening credits doesn't seem to be Hit nor does he seem to be getting beaten when Goku goes SS Blue.
- the fact that people like Tien, 17, 18, Roshi and Krillin are included in the Tournament roster at all.

I just don't see it. Gohan already has his ultimate power up. its just a matter of refitting it to the new power levels shown.

What I'm worried about is how serious Beerus was about killing Goku to prevent Zeno from starting this tournament. You know its bad when the God of Destruction is trying to PREVENT something from being destroyed. Its funny how often Goku's former villains tend to end up caring more about the lives of the people around them than Goku himself.

Mato

2017-02-05, 11:21 PM

Also, I flat-out do not believe that Goku is mentally capable of slacking off on his training to the point of being able to get hurt by a bullet. I... I don't know how that would even happen. That's weaker than he was before Z even started, right?Super is deliberately avoiding increased scaling for the most part.

Like in Z, in the Saiyen arc everyone did some massive training and we got a new x4 transformation. For Namek/Frieza we had a seven stage boss with a lot of very poorly written power boosts that for the most part barely did anything other than just push the scale of things. By the Android/Cell saga we got four new SSj forms and a five(?) stage end boss. The Buu saga introduced two new SSj forms (majinn/ssj3), fusion, another ridiculously handed out power increase ("mystic") to combat the villain with, just a lot of stages of ever increasing power. It was pretty silly.

But the new theme really isn't invent a new increased power level, increased it again, and again, and again, and again, per villain. Super even nerfs the film depictions, such as SSG lasting the entire fight against Beerus and Saiyen "Beyond God!" got flipped into Super Saiyen Blue: It's slightly more powerful than SSj3. In the third arc, as people were just trying to debate with me, Universe 6's opponents were mostly pretty weak but used various specialized skills to challenge the combatants. Moving into the fourth arc, Black/Zamasu were both weaker than Goku/Vegeta. Even after learning Rose, we constantly see Goku pushing Black back. They still give us a quick power increase in the form of the time chamber try to give us an increasing power villain. But they still subverted things by the the protagonists not actually gaining anything new. They fuse, it ends. Super Saiyen Rage happens, and the character leaves. Coming into the fifth major arc, the filler episodes are teasing the idea everyone got weaker and even characters that'd make no logical sense to even put in the realms of Goku and Vegeta such as Master Roshi and Krillian are getting to enter the tournament so obviously they are going to stick to mostly low-balling the new characters. Like we're teased over a female Broli, the real Broli ranks below Cell, Buu saga Piccolo could probably take him.

There will be a character or two, and certainly one of them will use the worf effect on Hit, meant to be more powerful than Goku. But that's not the kind of power increases Z issued out.

Kato

2017-02-06, 09:33 AM

Can we just stop assuming power levels/power scales still mean anything in this show? If anything, after Namek this all went to **** and thinking about it just gets me irritated...

I mean, Kid Goku in the Red Ribbon arc was pretty much entirely immune to bullets. And that was a t a point where he was way weaker than Picollo sen. Then we still get a load of training and power ups, until we get into Z, and then still some more until we get to Namek where Freeza could (pretty) easily blow up a planet. And up to this point we still had some decent fights... Albeit Raditz outclassed everyone, then nappa until he met Goku and Vegeta again was way stronger than Goku on his own.
Anyway, past Namek: Trunks EASILY destroys Freeza and cold but stands no chance against the Androids (same for anyone else). Then Picollo is around their level, but semi-perfect Cell (heck, even maxed out normal Cell) destroys them entirely, until he is outclassed by Vegeta and Trunks who again stand no chance against Perfect Cell. That's five power increases between Freeza and perfect Cell where nobody stood a chance. (Possibly another if we discuss max Cell and 16 apart from the others)
Buu saga was a little bit more even, but there was still a strict power increase for the most part. And then Beerus shows up, entirely doestroys any kind of scale again, and we're supposed to accept Goku can be bruised by a bullet?! A BULLET?! I guess I should watch out I don't get squashed by a feather when I'm not looking...

As I said, I can usually just not think about it and accept it... but thinking about it makes it really hard to accept any of this.

The Troubadour

2017-02-06, 10:53 AM

He got hit by bullets as a child with his guard down and they didn't hurt him.

Then again, that may have been anime only. I don't remember it happening in the manga.

It did, but he did have his guard up. Then again, that was back when "ki" was only used for special attacks and characters didn't have energy auras. Seems like the characters' abilities changed on a conceptual level between Goku's fight with Piccolo and the Saiyans' arrival, which is reflected in the way the fighting is conducted, for instance.

Indarra

2017-02-12, 01:24 AM

The latest episodes are really ramping up the tension between Beerus and Goku, which is nice because Goku is DESPERATELY in need of someone to call him out. He does have to accept responsibility for putting 11 universes in danger.

Rater202

2017-02-12, 02:15 AM

I'm predicting now that Goku's gonna win and use the Super Dragon Balls to restore the other 11 universes and their denizens.

Anteros

2017-02-12, 02:09 PM

I'm predicting that we're ramping up for some sort of mortals vs gods arc. Zen-chan may be too immature to know what he's doing when he destroys all this stuff, but the high priest should know better and seems to encourage the destruction anyway.

Callos_DeTerran

2017-02-12, 02:55 PM

I'm predicting now that Goku's gonna win and use the Super Dragon Balls to restore the other 11 universes and their denizens.

Maybe...a set of Dragon Balls is only as powerful as its creator. Not only might the super dragon balls not be able to handle a wish of that immensity (or at least require 11 wishes) but it might refuse to grant the wish because Zeno is the one that did it.

...heck, whoever Goku uses as a translator might refuse to make that wish. Whis, and the other angels, don't seem to encourage Zeno's childish actions but they don't do anything to stop them either and accept them when they happen. Assuming your scenario happens I wouldn't be surprised if Whis refused to even pose that wish...which might lead into the 'the final villain of Super will have white hair' thing.

Lord Raziere

2017-02-12, 04:13 PM

Maybe...a set of Dragon Balls is only as powerful as its creator. Not only might the super dragon balls not be able to handle a wish of that immensity (or at least require 11 wishes) but it might refuse to grant the wish because Zeno is the one that did it.

...heck, whoever Goku uses as a translator might refuse to make that wish. Whis, and the other angels, don't seem to encourage Zeno's childish actions but they don't do anything to stop them either and accept them when they happen. Assuming your scenario happens I wouldn't be surprised if Whis refused to even pose that wish...which might lead into the 'the final villain of Super will have white hair' thing.

nope, the Super Dragon Balls can pretty much grant anything. The Namekian Dragon Balls were both bigger and more powerful than the Earth Dragon Balls. The super Dragon balls are planet-sized. Were comparing this to Dragon Balls that fit into the palm of your hand or basket ball sized.

Their creator is one of the top gods that are second only to Zeno himself, so.....yeah, functionally omnipotent. If Zeno can destroy 12 universes, its perfectly possible for the Super Dragon Balls to bring them back. If they are still there.

and no, Whis has shown at times to PREVENT the end of the world. He doesn't make a show of it, but it seems the Angels purpose are to moderate the Gods of Destruction as well as assist them, to keep them from going too out of control. Especially given that he is given a staff to rewind time if Beerus destroys something he is not supposed to.

It could be that restoring the universe like this, could be the Super Dragon Balls actual original purpose given the destructive nature of Zeno himself. He is innocent to the cruelty he inflicts upon people with his destruction, but no universe = boredom for him. So I'm thinking he ordered there to be way to restore things so that he may endlessly have fun with the universe as his plaything, endlessly destroying and restoring things in a vast cycle. It would explain the very childish password required for the Super Dragon Balls, since Zeno IS a child.

Of course, I also theorize that the Gods of Destruction are originally there to moderate ZENO's destruction. That originally, Zeno dealt with everything personally and therefore constantly destroyed universes in his displeasure while one of his attendants restored things to keep reality from being destroyed entirely. So the Gods of destruction were eventually formed so that the power could be delegated and things that displease Zeno would be destroyed on a smaller scale before he could ever see them and thus he would have more time for fun. Of course then things like the Guardians were formed so that these things would be dealt with on an even smaller scale so that the Gods of Destruction weren't required for everything.

Thus it explains the entire structure of divinity: the entire purpose of the gods is to limit and contain anything that might displease Zeno on multiple levels from Guardians at the most subtle and weak, to the Gods of Destruction. While the super Dragon Balls were kept around in case anything serious enough happened to merit their use.

Edit: I mean, there are still the Gods of Creation and its canon that there has to be a BALANCE of Destruction and Creation. Zeno destroying almost everything won't be a balance. Else, why bother creating this entire divine bureaucracy in the first place?