[PF]Mystic Theurge and Agent of the Grave interraction

[Azoth]

Okay, so a buddy of mine and I were discussing undead horde builds. The subject of a Mystic The urge/Agent of the Grave build came up. Then came a disagreement over an Agent of the Grave's ability. The ability in question is Inspired Necromancy.

Obligatory relevant ability text:

When determining the maximum number of Hit Dice of undead he can control with spells like animate dead, a character counts his Agent of the Grave levels twice. This ability does not factor into how many undead he can create with a single casting of a spell. Thus, a cleric 7/Agent of the Grave 3 would be able to control 52 Hit Dice worth of undead with animate dead.

The argument comes from whether this ability would affect only the class that Agent of the Grave is advancing or if it would affect both classes.

So in the instance of a Wiz3/Cler3/MT10/AotG4 build would the final HD totals of controlable undead from Animate Dead be 84/52 (136 total) or would they be 84/84 (168 total)?

[GreyBlack]

Okay, so a buddy of mine and I were discussing undead horde builds. The subject of a Mystic The urge/Agent of the Grave build came up. Then came a disagreement over an Agent of the Grave's ability. The ability in question is Inspired Necromancy.

Obligatory relevant ability text:

When determining the maximum number of Hit Dice of undead he can control with spells like animate dead, a character counts his Agent of the Grave levels twice. This ability does not factor into how many undead he can create with a single casting of a spell. Thus, a cleric 7/Agent of the Grave 3 would be able to control 52 Hit Dice worth of undead with animate dead.

The argument comes from whether this ability would affect only the class that Agent of the Grave is advancing or if it would affect both classes.

So in the instance of a Wiz3/Cler3/MT10/AotG4 build would the final HD totals of controlable undead from Animate Dead be 84/52 (136 total) or would they be 84/84 (168 total)?

Depends. Which class are you applying AotG towards?

The relevant text states that your Agent of the Grave levels count twice when determining the number of undead you can animate. However, you have to choose which class your spellcasting from AotG goes towards ("If the character has more than one spellcasting class before becoming an Agent of the Grave he must decide which class he adds the new level to for the purpose of determining spells per day."). As such, if one of your classes has no agent of the grave levels applied to it, 0x2=0, while 2x4=8. 99% sure it's 136 total.

[CasualViking]

Note that MT is not a spellcasting class.

[grarrrg]

Depends. Which class are you applying AotG towards?.

Relevant FAQ entry (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ne8)
"General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)"

Nothing in the Inspired Necromancy ability specifically says "only your progressed class's spells".


Note that MT is not a spellcasting class.

Mystic Theurge is a non-issue to the main question.
His proposed build could just as easily be Wizard 10/Cleric 5/Agent of the Grave 5, and the question "one or both?" still applies.

[CasualViking]

Why are you not just reading what the text says? Agent of the Grave levels count twice. Once for adding to your caser level, once more for the special ability. Not three or four times, just twice.

[GreyBlack]

Relevant FAQ entry (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ne8)
"General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)"

Nothing in the Inspired Necromancy ability specifically says "only your progressed class's spells".



Mystic Theurge is a non-issue to the main question.
His proposed build could just as easily be Wizard 10/Cleric 5/Agent of the Grave 5, and the question "one or both?" still applies.

It's the last sentence under "Spells Per Day/Spells Known" in Agent of the Grave.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/agent-of-the-grave

Full text:
"When a new Agent of the Grave level is gained, the character gains new spells as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If the character has more than one spellcasting class before becoming an Agent of the Grave he must decide which class he adds the new level to for the purpose of determining spells per day."

Bold added by me. As such, Agent of the Grave only really affects one class. I suppose, technically by RAW, you could divide the levels up, splitting the difference, but it would still only be doubling the effective levels of whichever classes you choose for that level.

ETA: That's a bit confusing. Say you're a CLR 3/WIZ3/MT10/AotG 1 and advance to level 18. At level 18, you take AotG 2. At that level, you choose what spellcasting to advance, either Cleric or Wizard. So, either Wizard becomes an effective spellcasting 13, or Cleric does.

For sake of ease, let's assume you did Wizard. Basic animation allows you to control 2 HD/caster level undead, so at level 18, you would control (13 + [1x2])x2=30 HD of undead on your wizard side, and (13x2)= 26 HD on the Cleric side. When you hit 19, you, again, choose which class it applies to and add +(1x2)x2 to whichever class you choose. If you choose Wizard again, it would be 34/26 HD, or if you chose Cleric, it would be 30/30 HD.

I'm doing math from a x2 multiplier instead of a x4 because I'm assuming you're not under effects of Desecrate. If you were under a Desecrate, then the math would be (Class level (wizard/sorcerer) + [AotG level *2]) *4 instead of *2. I'll let you figure out the rest of the math.

EDIT 2: So, for your build, the answer is that each class would be between 26 and 42 without Desecrate, and between 52 and 84 with.

[grarrrg]

It's the last sentence under "Spells Per Day/Spells Known" in Agent of the Grave.

...g. If the character has more than one spellcasting class before becoming an Agent of the Grave he must decide which class he adds the new level to for the purpose of determining spells per day."

Bold added by me. As such, Agent of the Grave only really affects one class.

Let me quote you on this (re-bolded):


...g. If the character has more than one spellcasting class before becoming an Agent of the Grave he must decide which class he adds the new level to for the purpose of determining spells per day."

It does not say "...and for the purpose of class abilities", it just says "spells per day". Just because one (or more) features are linked to another class, does not mean that all features are linked to that same class.

I also refer you back to the FAQ ruling:

"General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)"

The Inspired Necromancy ability says nothing about "but only for spells from the class you are advancing spellcasting".

This is the intended functionality of that FAQ. If you have an ability that helps spellcasting, it (usually) helps any of your spellcasting classes.
They could have just as easily ruled that "spellcasting related abilities only work for the class that grants that ability", but they went for the multi-class friendly interpretation (which is fairly rare to be honest).


In fact, we can even take Agent of the Grave out of the question (like we did with our friend Mystic Theurge):
If you're a multi-class spellcaster, say Wizard 13/Cleric 7, what is your Animate Dead limit based on? Total caster level? Single Highest caster level? Or do you have to track each class's pool separately?
Let's figure out this question first, and then we'll get back to Agent of the Grave.

[GreyBlack]

Let me quote you on this (re-bolded):



It does not say "...and for the purpose of class abilities", it just says "spells per day". Just because one (or more) features are linked to another class, does not mean that all features are linked to that same class.

I also refer you back to the FAQ ruling:

"General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)"

The Inspired Necromancy ability says nothing about "but only for spells from the class you are advancing spellcasting".

This is the intended functionality of that FAQ. If you have an ability that helps spellcasting, it (usually) helps any of your spellcasting classes.
They could have just as easily ruled that "spellcasting related abilities only work for the class that grants that ability", but they went for the multi-class friendly interpretation (which is fairly rare to be honest).


In fact, we can even take Agent of the Grave out of the question (like we did with our friend Mystic Theurge):
If you're a multi-class spellcaster, say Wizard 13/Cleric 7, what is your Animate Dead limit based on? Total caster level? Single Highest caster level? Or do you have to track each class's pool separately?
Let's figure out this question first, and then we'll get back to Agent of the Grave.

You cut off a little early. It's for purposes of spellcaster level and spells/day and spells known. Read after the parentheses.

Wizard 13/Cleric7 would be (discounting desecration) Wizard: 52 Cleric: 28 Total: 80 Double those numbers with desecration. The undead you're allowed to create is based on your caster level from the casting class, so you would create undead as a Wizard 13 and a Cleric 7.

The number of undead under your control is based on your caster level. Adding on AotG would add your AotG caster bonus (+4) doubled. This... really isn't that difficult. Inspired Necromancy only counts the levels where they're applied. Yes, you do get the double levels to whichever side you apply them to. In fact, you can double all your AotG levels on the side you didn't apply them to. 0*2=0, therefore you get no bonus to the half you don't apply them to.

Again, the math is:

[Base caster level + (AotG caster level *2)] *4. If cast within desecration, double that number. If you have no AotG level applied to the base caster, you get no bonus from the ability.

ETA: Unless, under your reading, you gain no increase in spellcaster level from the AotG buffing your spells known/ Spells per day? The way you're reading it actually nerfs your spellcaster level, meaning you only gain a caster level increase to the number of undead yout can create, making this weird situation where your caster level (as a 7 wizard/ 5 AotG) would be 7 unless you're counting how many undead you can create, where it would be as a level 15 (60HD)

[grarrrg]

The number of undead under your control is based on your caster level. Adding on AotG would add your AotG caster bonus (+4) doubled.
...
Inspired Necromancy only counts the levels where they're applied.

The Inspired Necromancy bonus is based on class level and not caster level, all 5 levels count. Nowhere does it mention AotG caster level being doubled, just 'level'. The example given even supports this. (I will admit that the class is slightly off kilter, as the text implies full spellcasting, while the table only has 4/5 casting)

I maintain that the Spellcasting ability is a wholly separate ability from the Inspired Necromancy ability.
Spellcasting says "you get better spells as normal", and does NOT mention that it also restricts/applies to the other class's abilities.
Inspiried Necromany says "whenever you cast his spell > BONUS!", and nothing about "applied class", or "stacked class for casting".

The FAQ I've linked supports this, as the Inspiried Necromancy ability itself says nothing about being restricted.


I understand your interpretation, but the rules as written say differently.

[GreyBlack]

The Inspired Necromancy bonus is based on class level and not caster level, all 5 levels count. Nowhere does it mention AotG caster level being doubled, just 'level'. The example given even supports this. (I will admit that the class is slightly off kilter, as the text implies full spellcasting, while the table only has 4/5 casting)

I maintain that the Spellcasting ability is a wholly separate ability from the Inspired Necromancy ability.
Spellcasting says "you get better spells as normal", and does NOT mention that it also restricts/applies to the other class's abilities.
Inspiried Necromany says "whenever you cast his spell > BONUS!", and nothing about "applied class", or "stacked class for casting".

The FAQ I've linked supports this, as the Inspiried Necromancy ability itself says nothing about being restricted.


I understand your interpretation, but the rules as written say differently.

Then my only recommendation is to post to the Paizo forums.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s0er?Agent-of-the-Grave-Inspired-Necromancy-How

[GreyBlack]

I hate to double post here.... but I just decided to go back and re-read Inspired Necromancy and found an really interesting bit of weirdness. The text specifically says when you're determining the max HD of undead you can control, you double your AotG level when casting a spell like Animate Dead. You determine how many undead you can control based off of your caster level.

So, yes. The ability does not specifically say only to classes you added your AotG caster level to. Rather, it is baked into the text WHICH SPECIFICALLY CALLS OUT THAT YOU HAVE TO BE CASTING A SPELL. So, by RAW, if you gain control of the undead through, say, a feat (like Control Undead feat), the number of undead you can control is unaffected by your AotG level.

So. Cleric 7/AotG 5. Can control 60 undead when casting Animate Dead. However, if he were to gain undead through a non-spell manner, he would only be allowed to control 44. How's that for weirdness, eh?

[grarrrg]

I hate to double post here.... but I just decided to go back and re-read Inspired Necromancy and found an really interesting bit of weirdness. The text specifically says when you're determining the max HD of undead you can control, you double your AotG level when casting a spell like Animate Dead. You determine how many undead you can control based off of your caster level.

So, yes. The ability does not specifically say only to classes you added your AotG caster level to. Rather, it is baked into the text WHICH SPECIFICALLY CALLS OUT THAT YOU HAVE TO BE CASTING A SPELL. So, by RAW, if you gain control of the undead through, say, a feat (like Control Undead feat), the number of undead you can control is unaffected by your AotG level.

So. Cleric 7/AotG 5. Can control 60 undead when casting Animate Dead. However, if he were to gain undead through a non-spell manner, he would only be allowed to control 44. How's that for weirdness, eh?

:smallsigh:

The Inspired Necromancy bonus is based on class level and not caster level, all 5 levels count. Nowhere does it mention AotG caster level being doubled, just 'level'. The example given even supports this. (I will admit that the class is slightly off kilter, as the text implies full spellcasting, while the table only has 4/5 casting)

Obligatory relevant ability text:

When determining the maximum number of Hit Dice of undead he can control with spells like animate dead, a character counts his Agent of the Grave levels twice. This ability does not factor into how many undead he can create with a single casting of a spell. Thus, a cleric 7/Agent of the Grave 3 would be able to control 52 Hit Dice worth of undead with animate dead.

[GreyBlack]

Done here. Ask the Paizo developers through that link.

ETA: In fact, I did. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u1sr?Agent-of-the-GraveMystic-Theurge-interaction