One on one melee tournament. Who wins?

[The Shadowdove]

Hey forum-lurkers,

Let's say there are two different melee tournament, each with two divisions.

A 15th level and 20th level division.

One tournament is pure class, the other allows up to a 3rd level dip into ONE other class.


Who wins? Theory crafting or number crunch, whichever is your favored weapon.

1: (15th level pureclass)
2: (15th level with dip)
3: (20th level pureclass)
4: (20th level with dip)

Note: feel free to use a melee focused caster class with spells that augment their abilities.

Also: here is a snip of one of my later posts. Your arena is a large banquet hall. 25' tall, 80'x50'

"You rolled good stats. Apply them however you feel appropriate. Your opponent rolled the same stats out of pure coincidence.

18, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10.

Here is your first opponent:

Half-orc 3 champion fighter, 17 barbarian.

Great weapon mastery, sentinel, and tavern brawler are his feats. Two handed is his fighting style. He also has a quiver of black javelins."

[Arcangel4774]

Depending on arena paladins or assassin's with their novas have got to be highly rated. Lvl 20 barbarian or lvl 20 fighters can both be fairly stupidly tanky as well

[Vaz]

Moon Druid

[MeeposFire]

One issue is that certain abilities are really good in a duel and others are not.

For instance the barbs resistance to physical damage is really powerful here even if it isn't always as powerful in a group (though obviously still very good).

[djreynolds]

Hey forum-lurkers,

Let's say there are two different melee tournament, each with two divisions.

A 15th level and 20th level division.

One tournament is pure class, the other allows up to a 3rd level dip into ONE other class.


Who wins? Theory crafting or number crunch, whichever is your favored weapon.

1: (15th level pureclass)
2: (15th level with dip)
3: (20th level pureclass)
4: (20th level with dip)

Note: feel free to use a melee focused caster class with spells that augment their abilities.

You give us the opponent.

Test out your Kung-Fu versus their Kung-Fu.

And just go to 18th, might take awhile to Vaz's 20th level moon druid... if even possible.

[Sir cryosin]

Any monk maybe not elemental but any other would kill it in a arena. For the dip a warlock shadow monk.

[Giant2005]

Paladin with 3 levels of Battlemaster.

[Rysto]

I'd expect any short-rest dependent class to get nova'ed to hell and back in a 1-on-1. Maybe Wizard 18/Paladin 2? With Spell Mastery allowing you to cast Shield at will along with Heavy Armor, a shield and the Defence fighting style, your AC would be through the roof, letting you chew through anything that depends on making attack rolls (and against such opponents you could add Shield of Faith for another +2AC).

[Naanomi]

What does the arena look like and is there a time limit? What are the limits for flying or traveling underground? Extreme hit and run or cat-and-mouse hiding maybe possible if there are few limitations; but changes a lot if people are forced to just pound on each other with little chance for maneuverability

In any case, extreme AC is going to be a factor to work through... and I can't think of a 'melee' attack that targets saving throws as well (though potential for grapple exists)

[MaxWilson]

Assuming this is a slugging contest and so e.g. melee kiting via Mobile feat isn't allowed:

15th level: probably a GWM Eldritch Knight 13/Warlock 2 (Devil's Sight, Agonizing Blast; Animate Dead) beats any other 15th level warrior, with or without his bodyguard of greatsword-equipped undead zombies.
20th level: Moon Druid wins if allowed, otherwise an Eldritch Knight 20 wins.

It's just really hard to beat the power of having more Extra Attacks than anyone else, even before you add in Shield and Darkness + Devil's Sight.

But slugging contests aren't realistic anyway.

[Naanomi]

In a slug-fest how about... Battle Rager 16/Rogue 1/Battle Master 3

Disarm the opponent then shove them over and grapple them. Eat the unarmed attacks with regenerating temporary HP and let the spikes do damage while bypassing the 'unbeatable' AC numbers proposed

Wouldn't do well VS monks or druids but would do great otherwise in 1v1 contests

[Shaofoo]

Class that can cast Simulacrum. Or heck just Wish a Simulacrum and now you have 2 vs 1. Of course the other side can also likewise cast Wish or Simulacrum but that would limit the choices if we can just use spells although I expect that Simulacrum and Wish be banned.

[Naanomi]

Class that can cast Simulacrum. Or heck just Wish a Simulacrum and now you have 2 vs 1. Of course the other side can also likewise cast Wish or Simulacrum but that would limit the choices if we can just use spells although I expect that Simulacrum and Wish be banned.
I assumed that any attempt to summon allies defeats the purpose of the 'melee only' tournament

[Cl0001]

20th level a moon Druid would definitely win. At 15th I could see a barbarian, fighter or rogue. With multiclassing I could see paladin based builds winning a lot of those. With these predictions I'm assuming that spells which charm an opponent are banned along with wish/simulacrum because when I think of a duel I think of an open arena fight to the death with certain rules in place. If there weren't these rules then I'd say wizard could dominate in a lot of arenas.

[Lombra]

Open hand monk + 2 level dip in divination wizard. Instakill. No save.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Open hand monk + 2 level dip in divination wizard. Instakill. No save.

Chancier than you might think - you need one of your rolls to be low enough (far from guaranteed, especially against someone with good con saves, which are going to be fairly common here) and the enemy to have no special defence (this will almost certainly bounce right off a Fighter, for instance). Still, a fairly good option, especially since you still have a lot of Monking to fall back on as well as Shield.

My personal suggestion might be a Bladesinger Shapechanged into a Pit Fiend, maybe with a 2 dip in Paladin. Bladesong on top of Shield (Mastered, naturally) on top of the Pit Fiend chassis covereth a multitude of sins.

Edit: Shadowdove, are there any rules on magic items/gp limit? Because if no magic, then a lot of otherwise viable builds are going to get cheesed to death by casters polymorphed into Androsphinxes or Iron Golems.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

20th level a moon Druid would definitely win. At 15th I could see a barbarian, fighter or rogue. With multiclassing I could see paladin based builds winning a lot of those. With these predictions I'm assuming that spells which charm an opponent are banned along with wish/simulacrum because when I think of a duel I think of an open arena fight to the death with certain rules in place. If there weren't these rules then I'd say wizard could dominate in a lot of arenas.

20th level Druid would still be screwed against a monk stunning him every turn.

[The Shadowdove]

Thanks for responding everyone.

Prepare for your first fight in the level 20 level three dip tournament.

You rolled good stats. Apply them however you feel appropriate. Your opponent rolled the same stats out of pure coincidence.

18, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10.

Here is your first opponent:

Half-orc 3 champion fighter, 17 barbarian.

Great weapon mastery, sentinel, and tavern brawler are his feats. Two handed is his fighting style. He also has a quiver of black javelins.

Your arena is a 50' x 80' banquet hall complete with 52 person table, braziers in the corners of the room, and pillars running the full 25' height of the room. Banners hang the length of the pillars, and the table is set with silver cutlery and plates. At the far end sits a stone, and pillow adorned, throne atop a slightly raised Dias that takes three steps to ascend.

There are no doors and windows. He's charging across the room from the throne.

Note: math not required. If you simply wish to post a quick build overview, it'll still be appreciated!

[Naanomi]

EDIT: Oops didn't notice only 1 dip possible, I'll simplify

Hill Dwarf Battlerager 20
Stats: 24/14/24/10/12/12
Feats: tavern brawler, sentinel, tough
Equipment: battle axe, shield, spiked armor, throwing axes

Tactics: rage, then shove, grapple, and disarm the opponent. Only when fully subdued should you headbutt them or stab them with armor spikes, let your grapple checks and the spikes do the damage while your repeatedly regenerating temp HP supply keeps you alive through their unarmed attacks

[lunaticfringe]

Whoever's player rolls the best and/or plays their character the most tactically sound. Theorycrafting often overlooks the Human factor.

[Naanomi]

Whoever's player rolls the best and/or plays their character the most tactically sound. Theorycrafting often overlooks the Human factor.
To a degree, but knowing all the parameters of a fight before hand (melee only, limited arena, etc) and knowing you are fighting PCs (and the strengths and limitations of potential opponents you will face) means that 'builds' can be more of a factor here than in practical gameplay where there are more variables at play

[djreynolds]

Thanks for responding everyone.

Prepare for your first fight in the level 20 level three dip tournament.

You rolled good stats. Apply them however you feel appropriate. Your opponent rolled the same stats out of pure coincidence.

18, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10.

Here is your first opponent:

Half-orc 3 champion fighter, 17 barbarian.

Great weapon mastery, sentinel, and tavern brawler are his feats. Two handed is his fighting style. He also has a quiver of black javelins.

Your arena is a 50' x 80' banquet hall complete with 52 person table, braziers in the corners of the room, and pillars running the full 25' height of the room. Banners hang the length of the pillars, and the table is set with silver cutlery and plates. At the far end sits a stone, and pillow adorned, throne atop a slightly raised Dias that takes three steps to ascend.

There are no doors and windows. He's charging across the room from the throne.

Note: math not required. If you simply wish to post a quick build overview, it'll still be appreciated!

The Shadowdove, this is awesome

I like this. And I like the rolls you provided, thank you

Though I loathe champions, this build, it is tough.

Mountain Dwarf Champion 19, Rouge 1 or 18/2 I'm only here for survivor, and expertise in athletics

20/14/20/12/12/10

21AC Plate and Shield, defensive style at 1st and duelist style at 10th. 3 attacks strength based finesse weapons

AC 27 once a turn one of your attacks

Shield master, resilient wisdom, tough, defensive duelist, shield master, alert, +2 con

Initiative-10 with alert, remarkable athlete, +2 dex

HP no rolling just standard max hp at 1st and 6hp a fighter level, and 5 for the rogue for 263, with tough

Athletics, expertise is 17, perception, expertise 13, insight +7, sleight of hand +8

Rapier, scimitar, short sword, all strength based and shield, shieldmaster and defensive duelist for +6 on a reaction

And survivor class feature

Your barbarian is an unstoppable force.... who just met an unmovable wall, with stubby legs

I could grab half-orc as well instead of mountain dwarf or goliath

I could dump resilient wisdom, but I just like the feat, for athlete or mobile

Athlete feat could be considered, if only because when your totem barbarian knocks me down, no save, it doesn't take half of my movement to stand

Mobile, because 25 speed sucks (but in time I will just collect all the javelins you threw at me)

Tactics, go to town with shield master (since you skipped Indomitable Strength) and use defensive duelist (+6AC) once a round to eat up one of your big hits, and when I get below half HP, take the dodge action and use my reaction for defensive duelist on one of your attacks and then back to shield master once I've healed.

The key is not to allow you to hit me and send me prone and then beat me with advantage.

My champion, with a small dip of rogue for expertise in athletics, with his little chubby dwarf legs will just wear you down......... or you will splatter my brains with great axe.

Next time... do not skip Indomitable Strength, your 24 minimum roll on strength checks may have saved you.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Thanks for responding everyone.

Prepare for your first fight in the level 20 level three dip tournament.

You rolled good stats. Apply them however you feel appropriate. Your opponent rolled the same stats out of pure coincidence.

18, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10.

Here is your first opponent:

Half-orc 3 champion fighter, 17 barbarian.

Great weapon mastery, sentinel, and tavern brawler are his feats. Two handed is his fighting style. He also has a quiver of black javelins.

Your arena is a 50' x 80' banquet hall complete with 52 person table, braziers in the corners of the room, and pillars running the full 25' height of the room. Banners hang the length of the pillars, and the table is set with silver cutlery and plates. At the far end sits a stone, and pillow adorned, throne atop a slightly raised Dias that takes three steps to ascend.

There are no doors and windows. He's charging across the room from the throne.

Note: math not required. If you simply wish to post a quick build overview, it'll still be appreciated!

Very nice. Here's mine:

High Elf Paladin Fighter 2/Bladesinger 18

Starting Stats:
Str 10
Dex 18 (16 +2 Racial)
Con 14
Int 19 (18+1 Racial)
Wis 12
Cha 11

ASIs/Feats:
Wiz 4: +1 Int (to 20) and +1 Wis (to 13)
Wiz 8: +2 Dex (to 20)
Wiz 12: Alert (Wis to 14
Wis 16: War Caster

Final stats:
Str 10
Dex 20
Con 14
Int 20
Wis 14
Cha 11

Notable Build Choices:
Fighting Style: Mariner
Spell Mastery: Shield and Mirror Image
Weapons and Armour: Rapier, Longbow, Mace sized for Large Creature, Studded Leather.

His first actions (after probably winning initiative thanks to a healthy +10 modifier) will be to cast Shapechange (assuming the form of a Pit Fiend) and to enter Bladesong, then Action Surge and charge if the Barb is close enough, and cast Fireball (using the Pit Fiend's innate spellcasting) otherwise. He will then close with the Barb and attempt to beat him up using his healthy 300hp, effective armour class of 30 (Base Pit Fiend AC of 19, +1 Mariner, +5 Bladesong, +5 Shield) Resistance to normal weapons, fear aura, and song of victory-enhanced attack routine. If he is nonetheless taking heavy damage, he'll switch forms to a Rakshasa (assuming that the Barb seems to be using nonmagical weapons) and slowly grind him down while being immune to his attacks. If the Shapechange goes down (unlikely, given that he's rolling +18 with advantage for concentration, but bad luck happens), he'll bring up Greater Invisibility and hope that's enough to outlast him.

Assumptions made:
1. No magic items allowed - if they are, I'd obviously like to stock up on a few, and obviously I'm not going to try and use Rakshasa form against a guy with a magic weapon.
2. This being a melee tournament, I have to win by killing my opponent with melee attacks. Buffing myself is okay, but plane shifting the other guy to the Negative Plane, True Polymorphing him into a squirrel, hiding in a Leomund's Tiny Hut or other such tricks are cheating. If that's not the case, I'd be doing a bit of that.
3. No pre-buffing - if I can, then obviously I'd like to be running Shapechange to start with, along with Mage Armour and Mirror Image.
4. Bladesingers have to be elves - if not, then several other races (particularly Gnomes) might well be preferable.
Edit: 5. UA and Splatbooks are allowed: Losing UA won't be a huge problem (switching to Duelist rather than Mariner isn't much of a wrench), but obviously this build is highly reliant on SCAG (though an Abjurer might also work).

By the way, what kind of Barb is your guy, and what are his attributes?

[RulesJD]

*sigh*

We've had this discussion a thousand times. The answers are, in descending order.

1. Moon Druid/Divination Wizard/Sorcerer w/ Subtle Spell
2. Every other Wizard
3. Everyone else

Spell casting at the higher levels is simply too strong to overcome for the martial classes.

For the multiclassing, add in 2 levels of Fighter to the Sorc/Wizard classes for Action Surge with two spells.

[RSP]

TheTeaMustFlow,
Think you missed something: you can't multiclassing a Pally with 11 Chr or 10 Str. Must have 13 in each.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

TheTeaMustFlow,
Think you missed something: you can't multiclassing a Pally with 11 Chr or 10 Str. Must have 13 in each.

...Well, darn. I forgot that was a thing. Better switch attributes around then, or just change the dip. Maybe Mystic...

Edit: Switched it to Fighter for that tasty Action Surge.

[Douche]

What does the arena look like and is there a time limit? What are the limits for flying or traveling underground? Extreme hit and run or cat-and-mouse hiding maybe possible if there are few limitations; but changes a lot if people are forced to just pound on each other with little chance for maneuverability

In any case, extreme AC is going to be a factor to work through... and I can't think of a 'melee' attack that targets saving throws as well (though potential for grapple exists)

He said melee tournament. You and your opponent are standing toe-to-toe. No flying/meld into stone hijinks. Just stabbing and crushing each other to death.

[BiPolar]

*sigh*

We've had this discussion a thousand times. The answers are, in descending order.

1. Moon Druid/Divination Wizard/Sorcerer w/ Subtle Spell
2. Every other Wizard
3. Everyone else

Spell casting at the higher levels is simply too strong to overcome for the martial classes.

For the multiclassing, add in 2 levels of Fighter to the Sorc/Wizard classes for Action Surge with two spells.

Those aren't Melee. Thanks for playing.

[RSP]

RulesJD,
I don't think you read the post. OP wants "melee only;" I think this disqualifies spells, unless your Wizard and Sorcerers are only using melee spell attacks for all their castings.

[RulesJD]

RulesJD,
I don't think you read the post. OP wants "melee only;" I think this disqualifies spells, unless your Wizard and Sorcerers are only using melee spell attacks for all their castings.

Ahhh so I did, figured it was the other usage of "melee". In that case....

My answers are still basically the same. High level spell casters can still use True Polymorph to turn into an Ancient Brass Dragon. Legendary Resistance for the first couple concentration saves if you need it (unlikely given War Caster +13, but still), Legendary Actions, Breath Weapon, nasty claws etc. If for some reason that form isn't good, just switch to Pit Fiend and go to town.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Ahhh so I did, figured it was the other usage of "melee". In that case....

My answers are still basically the same. High level spell casters can still use True Polymorph to turn into an Ancient Brass Dragon. Legendary Resistance for the first couple concentration saves if you need it (unlikely given War Caster +13, but still), Legendary Actions, Breath Weapon, nasty claws etc. If for some reason that form isn't good, just switch to Pit Fiend and go to town.

I agree with you in principle (hence my Bladesinger build), but I think Pit Fiend beats Brass Dragon (and White Dragon, for that matter). Essentially same hp and slightly worse AC, and no Legendary Resistance, but much better resistances and attack routine - a lot of the Dragon's power comes from Legendary Actions which True Polymorph/Shapechange doesn't get. It also doesn't suffer from the problem of size limiting mobility.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hey forum-lurkers,

Let's say there are two different melee tournament, each with two divisions.

A 15th level and 20th level division.

One tournament is pure class, the other allows up to a 3rd level dip into ONE other class.


Who wins? Theory crafting or number crunch, whichever is your favored weapon.

1: (15th level pureclass)
2: (15th level with dip)
3: (20th level pureclass)
4: (20th level with dip)

Note: feel free to use a melee focused caster class with spells that augment their abilities.

Standard campaign? or High Magic campaign?

[RulesJD]

I agree with you in principle (hence my Bladesinger build), but I think Pit Fiend beats Brass Dragon (and White Dragon, for that matter). Essentially same hp and slightly worse AC, and no Legendary Resistance, but much better resistances and attack routine - a lot of the Dragon's power comes from Legendary Actions which True Polymorph/Shapechange doesn't get. It also doesn't suffer from the problem of size limiting mobility.

You get the Legendary Actions via True Polymorph, you just don't get it via Shapechange.

[JAL_1138]

You get the Legendary Actions via True Polymorph, you just don't get it via Shapechange.

To expand a bit on this, there's nothing whatsoever in the text of True Polymorph saying anything about legendary actions at all, one way or the other, whereas there IS a line in Shapechange that specifically mentions you don't get legendary actions.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

You get the Legendary Actions via True Polymorph, you just don't get it via Shapechange.


To expand a bit on this, there's nothing whatsoever in the text of True Polymorph saying anything about legendary actions at all, one way or the other, whereas there IS a line in Shapechange that specifically mentions you don't get legendary actions.

It's in the Monster Manual Errata. "If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn't gain that form's legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects." (Though it should be noted that Legendary Resistance, despite the name, is none of these.)

[JAL_1138]

It's in the Monster Manual Errata. "If a creature assumes the form of a legendary creature, such as through a spell, it doesn't gain that form's legendary actions, lair actions, or regional effects." (Though it should be noted that Legendary Resistance, despite the name, is none of these.)

Ah, got it. I'm working from a first printing MM (and didn't check there for spell errata). That really should be in the PHB errata...dunno what they were thinking.

[Veniur]

Bugbear 2 Barbarian 18 Rogue
18(20) Str, 16 Con, 14(15) Dex, 12 Wis, 11 Cha, 10 Int
1B (Rage, Unarmored Defense), 2B (Reckless Attacks, Danger Sense)
The rest are all rogue. Lvl 6 Defensive Duelist, Lvl 10 +2 Con, Lvl 12 +2 Con, Lvl 14 Tough, Lvl 16 Resilient (Dex).
You now have 249 HP, 20 AC (using shield), +11 str/con saves, +9 Dex saves (with advantage), +7 Wisdom saves, +6 AC on reaction, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Attacks can't have advantage against you (important when used with Reckless Attacks for constant advantage), resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage 1min/rage, sneak attack (9d6), Blindsense, and if you go assassin (assuming you can get a good sneak in, which is likely with +3 dex +6 proficiency +6 for expertise with a minimum of 10 from Reliable Talent), you are likely to get a surprise round coming from stealth, so instant crit with Death Strike for double damage if they fail the con save. Another thing to note is that you can be an extra 5 ft away and can use cunning action still. I don't see much use in it, but Idk. It might prevent some specific abilities that require people to be within 5ft.
Rapier + Shield
Surprise round: [(1d8(rapier)+2d6(bugbear)+9d6(sneak attack))*2(crit)+5(Str)+2(Rage)]*2(Death Strike) = (2d8+4d6+18d6+5+2)*2
Avg~186 dmg
Max=310 dmg
That is enough damage to give you a severe lead on the enemy and you still have enough defenses that you may not even take damage. Only problem I have is that Defensive Duelist is only good for 1 attack. Well that and probably the other fighters in this combat would likely have much more hp than this one.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Bugbear 2 Barbarian 18 Rogue
18(20) Str, 16 Con, 14(15) Dex, 12 Wis, 11 Cha, 10 Int
1B (Rage, Unarmored Defense), 2B (Reckless Attacks, Danger Sense)
The rest are all rogue. Lvl 6 Defensive Duelist, Lvl 10 +2 Con, Lvl 12 +2 Con, Lvl 14 Tough, Lvl 16 Resilient (Dex).
You now have 249 HP, 20 AC (using shield), +11 str/con saves, +9 Dex saves (with advantage), +7 Wisdom saves, +6 AC on reaction, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Attacks can't have advantage against you (important when used with Reckless Attacks for constant advantage), resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage 1min/rage, sneak attack (9d6), Blindsense, and if you go assassin (assuming you can get a good sneak in, which is likely with +3 dex +6 proficiency +6 for expertise with a minimum of 10 from Reliable Talent), you are likely to get a surprise round coming from stealth, so instant crit with Death Strike for double damage if they fail the con save. Another thing to note is that you can be an extra 5 ft away and can use cunning action still. I don't see much use in it, but Idk. It might prevent some specific abilities that require people to be within 5ft.
Rapier + Shield
Surprise round: [(1d8(rapier)+2d6(bugbear)+9d6(sneak attack))*2(crit)+5(Str)+2(Rage)]*2(Death Strike) = (2d8+4d6+18d6+5+2)*2
Avg~186 dmg
Max=310 dmg
That is enough damage to give you a severe lead on the enemy and you still have enough defenses that you may not even take damage. Only problem I have is that Defensive Duelist is only good for 1 attack. Well that and probably the other fighters in this combat would likely have much more hp than this one.

While that it some impressive nova, I don't think it works in this scenario - if nothing else, the enemy is 80 feet away, and I don't see any way for you to close that distance and melee in one round, so no assassinate for you. It also jobs completely to any build with Alert (such as djreynolds' and mine), since surprise is flat-out impossible and you can't get advantage from stealth, which makes achieving sneak attack rather problematic.

On a related note, it seems to me that the primary weakness of Shapechange/True Polymorph builds (and probably Onion Druids as well), apart from other high-level casters, is getting nova'd or disabled on the first turn. Can anyone think of a way to do that, from 80ft away, against a target with Alert?

[JAL_1138]

While that it some impressive nova, I don't think it works in this scenario - if nothing else, the enemy is 80 feet away, and I don't see any way for you to close that distance and melee in one round, so no assassinate for you. It also jobs completely to any build with Alert (such as djreynolds' and mine), since surprise is flat-out impossible and you can't get advantage from stealth, which makes achieving sneak attack rather problematic.

On a related note, it seems to me that the primary weakness of Shapechange/True Polymorph builds (and probably Onion Druids as well), apart from other high-level casters, is getting nova'd or disabled on the first turn. Can anyone think of a way to do that, from 80ft away, against a target with Alert?

If a 9th-level caster, you might run 30ft, Wish for a Simulacrum, have the Simulacrum run 30ft and cast Hold Person or Forcecage?

[MaxWilson]

Bugbear 2 Barbarian 18 Rogue
18(20) Str, 16 Con, 14(15) Dex, 12 Wis, 11 Cha, 10 Int
1B (Rage, Unarmored Defense), 2B (Reckless Attacks, Danger Sense)
The rest are all rogue. Lvl 6 Defensive Duelist, Lvl 10 +2 Con, Lvl 12 +2 Con, Lvl 14 Tough, Lvl 16 Resilient (Dex).
You now have 249 HP, 20 AC (using shield), +11 str/con saves, +9 Dex saves (with advantage), +7 Wisdom saves, +6 AC on reaction, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Attacks can't have advantage against you (important when used with Reckless Attacks for constant advantage), resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage 1min/rage, sneak attack (9d6), Blindsense, and if you go assassin (assuming you can get a good sneak in, which is likely with +3 dex +6 proficiency +6 for expertise with a minimum of 10 from Reliable Talent), you are likely to get a surprise round coming from stealth, so instant crit with Death Strike for double damage if they fail the con save. Another thing to note is that you can be an extra 5 ft away and can use cunning action still. I don't see much use in it, but Idk. It might prevent some specific abilities that require people to be within 5ft.
Rapier + Shield
Surprise round: [(1d8(rapier)+2d6(bugbear)+9d6(sneak attack))*2(crit)+5(Str)+2(Rage)]*2(Death Strike) = (2d8+4d6+18d6+5+2)*2
Avg~186 dmg
Max=310 dmg
That is enough damage to give you a severe lead on the enemy and you still have enough defenses that you may not even take damage. Only problem I have is that Defensive Duelist is only good for 1 attack. Well that and probably the other fighters in this combat would likely have much more hp than this one.

Clever idea. I think it's worth calling out explicitly though that your numbers assume that you'll achieve surprise and win initiative, that you'll hit, and that the enemy will fail his Con save against Death Strike. Those assumptions could fail in any number of ways: enemy could be hidden as well as you (high Stealth, e.g. Moon Druid w/ Pass Without Trace); the enemy could have Foresight up; you could simply miss; and of course the enemy could simply succeed on his Con save. The Con save is why Death Strike is generally seen as a weak ability, and even a simple slugger like a Con 16 Champion 20 has an 80% chance to make a DC 19 Con save (thanks to Indomitable).

So while it is a clever idea, I think the analysis is off. You're more likely to do between 40-90 damage on the first round than 186.

[Veniur]

Haha All good points. So I never really looked at Alert because it didn't seem appealing to me. I missed the cannot be surprised part. Besides that though, dash as bonus action to close to 20ft away, throw a dagger (still had advantage from reckless attacks since it's a melee weapon). It's less damage than previously stated, but not much. The death strike is pretty much a failure, I'll agree, but even half that isn't bad. Also I just noticed his DC would actually only be 17 (DC=8+dex+prof).
The whole point in taking barbarian is the rage resistance and the reckless attacks + rogue elusive combo.

[MaxWilson]

While that it some impressive nova, I don't think it works in this scenario - if nothing else, the enemy is 80 feet away, and I don't see any way for you to close that distance and melee in one round, so no assassinate for you. It also jobs completely to any build with Alert (such as djreynolds' and mine), since surprise is flat-out impossible and you can't get advantage from stealth, which makes achieving sneak attack rather problematic.

On a related note, it seems to me that the primary weakness of Shapechange/True Polymorph builds (and probably Onion Druids as well), apart from other high-level casters, is getting nova'd or disabled on the first turn. Can anyone think of a way to do that, from 80ft away, against a target with Alert?

Contingency: "Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on myself whenever anyone attacks me or casts a spell at me" should buy you enough time to do your thing.

Or were you asking whether it's possible to reliably disable an Alert high-level caster from 80 feet away before they get their Shapechange off? The answer to that is "No, I don't think so." I suppose that makes an Alert Swashbuckler 3/Bladesinger 17 with Athletics Expertise the best counter-caster build, so you can cast Antimagic Field on yourself and then close with the enemy (negating his Shapechange/whatever--DM's judgment as to whether that eliminates wildshape) and then grapple/prone the spellcaster and commence beating him/her to death with two attacks per round + 2d6 sneak attack.

And don't forget about 9th level Counterspelling his Shapechange. A Lore Bard or Abjuror could fairly reliably Counterspell your Counterspell IX, but a normal spellcaster would have a high failure rate.

Both of these strategies seem more reliable to me than trying to guarantee that you disable the enemy on the first turn.

=====================


Haha All good points. So I never really looked at Alert because it didn't seem appealing to me. I missed the cannot be surprised part. Besides that though, dash as bonus action to close to 20ft away, throw a dagger (still had advantage from reckless attacks since it's a melee weapon). It's less damage than previously stated, but not much. The death strike is pretty much a failure, I'll agree, but even half that isn't bad. Also I just noticed his DC would actually only be 17 (DC=8+dex+prof).
The whole point in taking barbarian is the rage resistance and the reckless attacks + rogue elusive combo.

But that just brings us right back to the question of "what is a melee tournament?" If plinking away from range is okay, why isn't shapechanging okay? Why isn't abusing Pass Without Trace on a bardlock with Stealth Expertise okay?

I agree that Elusive + Reckless Attack is a pretty interesting combo; although I think I'd argue that Arcane Tricksters can do just as well simply by turning themselves invisible with Greater Invisibility (or even Fog Cloud) instead of relying on Reckless Attack.

[Veniur]

But that just brings us right back to the question of "what is a melee tournament?" If plinking away from range is okay, why isn't shapechanging okay? Why isn't abusing Pass Without Trace on a bardlock with Stealth Expertise okay?

The difference is what kind of a melee combatant would give up the opportunity to attack once in a round. If you start 80 ft away and can only make it 60 ft, you might as well throw a dagger, which has a range of 20ft. It's not like he's running away and kiting.

[Vogonjeltz]

If a 9th-level caster, you might run 30ft, Wish for a Simulacrum, have the Simulacrum run 30ft and cast Hold Person or Forcecage?

No. Both spells require material components, a Simulacrum however is created with no equipment.

Separately, it would need to roll initiative as it is its own creature (and there is no spell text indicating that it shares the casters initiative, probably because Simulacrum is normally a long cast spell), so it's very unlikely to have the initiative (n-1) immediately after the caster.

[RulesJD]

No. Both spells require material components, a Simulacrum however is created with no equipment.

Separately, it would need to roll initiative as it is its own creature (and there is no spell text indicating that it shares the casters initiative, probably because Simulacrum is normally a long cast spell), so it's very unlikely to have the initiative (n-1) immediately after the caster.

Interact with object + toss spell casting focus. Done.

[Vogonjeltz]

Interact with object + toss spell casting focus. Done.

Pulling out the material component is interact with an object, handing it over would be 2. A second one in a round requires an action, which was spent to cast Wish.

So, it would still require 2 rounds, and there would be the opportunity for enemies to destroy the utterly defenseless (naked, no equipment, 1/2 hp) simulacra. Given that it's a Wizard it probably has about 70 hit points. For the threats faced at level 20 (Ancient Dragons, Demons/Devils, Death Knights, (Demi)Liches, Cats, and so forth, it's practically a given that they can kill the Simulacra before it can act.

[djreynolds]

It depends on who you are fighting.

Survivor of the champion is very good.

I prefer melee vs melee, only because casters is a lot of work to do.

[MaxWilson]

Pulling out the material component is interact with an object, handing it over would be 2.

You can interact with item for free on your turn. No matter whether the Forcecage material component is already in hand or not, you can unquestionably end your turn with a Forcecage material component on the ground near you. The Simulacrum could use its object interaction to pick it up. No issues there.

The initiative thing would be more of a problem of course.

[AdmiralCatticus]

Moon Druid

This is the correct answer, speaking lazily. Especially a capstoned moon Druid. They will win very much more so than anyone else.

[djreynolds]

This is the correct answer, speaking lazily. Especially a capstoned moon Druid. They will win very much more so than anyone else.

Join the hunt thread.... I'm trying to kill one.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

This is the correct answer, speaking lazily. Especially a capstoned moon Druid. They will win very much more so than anyone else.

Nope. Wild shape forms are very weak at this level, particularly if they're actually a primary target. Their attacks are too weak and inaccurate to realistically threaten most of the builds here, and their defences and hp are so weak that most of the builds here are capable of dropping them to Druid form with interest fairly easily - and that's if you don't try something intelligent (like some kind of stun, or one of the many attacks that kill on reduction to 0 hp).


Contingency: "Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on myself whenever anyone attacks me or casts a spell at me" should buy you enough time to do your thing.

Or were you asking whether it's possible to reliably disable an Alert high-level caster from 80 feet away before they get their Shapechange off? The answer to that is "No, I don't think so." I suppose that makes an Alert Swashbuckler 3/Bladesinger 17 with Athletics Expertise the best counter-caster build, so you can cast Antimagic Field on yourself and then close with the enemy (negating his Shapechange/whatever--DM's judgment as to whether that eliminates wildshape) and then grapple/prone the spellcaster and commence beating him/her to death with two attacks per round + 2d6 sneak attack.

And don't forget about 9th level Counterspelling his Shapechange. A Lore Bard or Abjuror could fairly reliably Counterspell your Counterspell IX, but a normal spellcaster would have a high failure rate.

Both of these strategies seem more reliable to me than trying to guarantee that you disable the enemy on the first turn.

Sorry, I should have emphasised that I was thinking specifically in terms of this scenario, which messes with both the Contingency (because you presumably can't pre-buff), and the counterspell (60ft range against a target that starts 80ft away, which comes down to an initiative comparison against a target whose modifier you at most beat by one or two, which combined with the chance of a counter-counterspell is rather chancy).

The Swashsinger seems fairly sound however - though it does have a couple of failure points (mostly based around using instantaneous conjurations), they're outside the scope of a melee only tournament (which odes, as you say, bring us back to the question of 'what is a melee tournament'), and I think it should stand up almost as well to the non-casters, since it is quite capable of shapechange shenanigans itself.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Oopsie daisy.

[JellyPooga]

Thief Rogue 20 has got to have a decent chance on this one, if only for getting two turns in the first round. Add in a "caster only" magic item or two from UMD for self buffs and we're looking at a fair amount of hurt in the first round. I'm AFB and posting from phone, so can't work up a full build/tactics just now, but some notion of limitations on magic items for this exercise would be appreciated.

[Citan]

Hey forum-lurkers,

Let's say there are two different melee tournament, each with two divisions.

A 15th level and 20th level division.

One tournament is pure class, the other allows up to a 3rd level dip into ONE other class.


Who wins? Theory crafting or number crunch, whichever is your favored weapon.

1: (15th level pureclass)
2: (15th level with dip)
3: (20th level pureclass)
4: (20th level with dip)

Note: feel free to use a melee focused caster class with spells that augment their abilities.

Also: here is a snip of one of my later posts. Your arena is a large banquet hall. 25' tall, 80'x50'

"You rolled good stats. Apply them however you feel appropriate. Your opponent rolled the same stats out of pure coincidence.

18, 16, 14, 12, 11, 10.

Here is your first opponent:

Half-orc 3 champion fighter, 17 barbarian.

Great weapon mastery, sentinel, and tavern brawler are his feats. Two handed is his fighting style. He also has a quiver of black javelins."
Considering it would be in an arena ("tournament" so I suppose) so no more than 120-150 feet away from each other ...
For level 15, Wild Magic Sorcerer with Lucky and Alert feat and Swashbuckler dip: whatever happens he wins, except maybe an Arcane Trickster Rogue (or a Rogue with revised Ranger dip)...
with decent Dex and CHA (let's say 16 DEX and 18 CHA), you roll your Initiative with +3 (Dex) +5 (Alert) + 4 (Swash), so a nifty +12. With advantage thanks to Tides of Chaos if needed.

Once you got the jump start, cast a Hold Person, Polymorph, or other spell that I didn't think of that effectively disables the enemy.
Because you can stack Heightened Metamagic + Lucky + Bend Luck, there is VERY little chance your opponent could make his save.
Except probably a Paladin (with 14 Wis and 16 CHA, he would get proficiency + 2 + 3 which is not bad).

For a level 20, I'd say the prime contender is Moon Druid, but a Open Hand Monk (if he manages to reach), Evoker/Diviner Wizard and Wild Magic Sorcerer would be also great challengers. ;)

EDIT: Shoot, I missed the size details of the hall... But is it really these dimensions? It amounts to a surface of 4000 feet, >1km². Seems a bit too large for a hall...