Help me with the Lore Bard (and 5e in general)

[studderingdave]

New member. I am a hardened 3.5 player who has accepted playing into a 5e campaign because the DM is super excited about his entry in role-playing. I don't usually bring OP stuff into new DM territory but the DM sort of expects me to so I can be an anchor for the rest of the party (picture three to four 40+ year old men that never played any RPG's before but all drink a ton of booze). The group is basically the new DM and his neighbors (one of which is also my father, who always accepted my gaming hobbies).

So I scanned the PHB and I chose Bard. in 3.5 I tend to play skill monkey/multitask type characters (read:Factotum). I am leaning towards Lore. I am looking for general advice for creation. I don't have anything set in stone yet. I rolled some hotness for my stats though, which gave me a bit of a rush because I have been using a point buy array since the mid nineties.

16,16,16,14,14,9

Anyone wanna lend me a hand? I get to start at 2nd level. My initial thoughts are Human (feat variant) INT dump stat luck feat. I want to MC into Warlock down the road (more of a flavor want over a OP want).

Thanks in advance to anyone who has some opinions.

[JAL_1138]

EvilAnagram's Bard Guide is a good place to start: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427508-Player-s-Gonna-Play-A-Bard-s-Guide

[Specter]

1) Bard's main schtick is debuffing enemies, inspiring allies and doing whatever is needed after that, pretty much like 3.5.

2) With your stats, any multiclass is open. I personally recommend Rogue 2 for more Expertise and Cunning Action (fantastic defensive ability) or Paladin/Fighter 1 if you plan to take War Caster.

3) You definitely want a feat that will help you keeping concentration; those are War Caster and Resilient (CON).

4) For Magical Secrets, definitely take Counterspell. You'll be second best in the game with it and Jack of All Trades.

[DanyBallon]

One thing worthy of note about 5e; there's no need to be over specialized.
Bound accuracy limit the difference between non proficient and proficient character, so a same encounter/trap/skill check, remain challenging throughout your whole carreer. Unlike 3.5, a pit trap will have the same DC for a level 1 or level 20 character, and the 20th level will still may fall in the trap. Or a gang of goblins, if not taken care of, can still bring down a 20th level fighter. Instead of scaling DC/AC/etc. The character progression is based around having more HP, so falling in a trap at 1st level is deadlier than at 20th because it takes away a greater part of your hit points, same goes for the goblins, while they'll still be able to hit you quite often, the damage is quite insignifiant at 20th level, but you can't just go and ignore them though.
There's a downside to bound accuracy though, dice roll matters much more than in 3.5, sometimes it can be frustrating to be proficient in a skill and fail, while a non proficient character succeed because of a good roll. The design intent is to have skill checks only when there is a chance of failure, or when failure have dire consequence. Unfortunately, it takes time for DM to adjust to this concept.

I hope this will be helpful

P.S. Contrary to 3.5, where building your character and using an effective strategy was the norm, if not essential to the game. 5e Character creation, don't take long. There seems to be less option, but fewer are traps. 5e is meant to be a bit looser on the form and is playing faster, while relying on DMs call often.
While I prefer this kind of gameplay, it can be disorienting for first time players comming from a more structured game style as 3.5, and from experience, it doesn't help 5e to run it more "rigidly".

[studderingdave]

Thank you for the responses. I think I'm going with rapier/short bow and dumping my 9 into STR. I want a generalized spell progression and some of the lower spells seem really decent for our sessions.

[rooneg]

Also consider a one level dip in Cleric, either Knowledge (for more skills) or Life (for super healing). Either of those frees up some Bard spell slots that you otherwise would be spending on at least one healing spell (unless you know your party already has sufficient healing). This also picks you up either Medium or Heavy armor, which is nice for keeping you alive.

Enjoy your Bard, it's a super fun class in 5e, I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

[studderingdave]

would you suggest going cleric1/bard1 to start or progressing the bard now and dip in later?

note the party is currently fighter,fighter,ranger.

[rooneg]

would you suggest going cleric1/bard1 to start or progressing the bard now and dip in later?

note the party is currently fighter,fighter,ranger.

Mine started as a Cleric, then went Bard from there on out. The difference is mostly if you want to start with a proficiency in Wisdom saves or Dexterity saves. Note that you'll need a 13 Wisdom in order to do this. The other thing you'll want to do as a Cleric is pick up the Guidance cantrip, it's super useful for a Bard since you'll be making a lot of skill checks.

The downside, FWIW, is mostly that you'll be delaying your spell progression by 1 level. Cleric and Bard are both full casters, so you'll get the full spell slots for your combined level, but you'll be 1 level behind on learning your Bard spells, so you pick up your first 2nd level spells at 4th level instead of 3rd level, your first 3rd level spells at 6th level instead of 5th level. It's a little annoying (especially waiting until 6th level to pick up 3rd level spells, they're super strong), but I think it's worth it.

[Grubble]

Lore Bards let everyone else do things just a bit better.

I would recommend either the Healer feat (lots of free heals) or Inspiring Leader (up front Temp HP every short rest). While warcaster or resilient Con look good on paper, I've gone multiple levels without ever being hit.

[studderingdave]

Mine started as a Cleric, then went Bard from there on out. The difference is mostly if you want to start with a proficiency in Wisdom saves or Dexterity saves. Note that you'll need a 13 Wisdom in order to do this. The other thing you'll want to do as a Cleric is pick up the Guidance cantrip, it's super useful for a Bard since you'll be making a lot of skill checks.

The downside, FWIW, is mostly that you'll be delaying your spell progression by 1 level. Cleric and Bard are both full casters, so you'll get the full spell slots for your combined level, but you'll be 1 level behind on learning your Bard spells, so you pick up your first 2nd level spells at 4th level instead of 3rd level, your first 3rd level spells at 6th level instead of 5th level. It's a little annoying (especially waiting until 6th level to pick up 3rd level spells, they're super strong), but I think it's worth it.

The decreased spell progression isn't an issue. I'll make the dip initially. Healer feat looks legit.

[JellyPooga]

The most important thing to know about playing a Bard in 5ed is that you won't be the guy doing everything; your DPR will suck compared to others, your control spells don't have the versatility of others, your utility spells and abilities aren't top notch...but you will help everyone else look good....

...which goes somewhat against the notion of the Bard being in the spotlight all the time, the flamboyant, charismatic party face. Your job and the thing you are best at is being the "power behind the throne", the best sidekick in existence and the party member that no-one dislikes. If it came to a choice of which party member has to be left behind...no-one will vote for you, because you're the one guy who is the catalyst for the others to go from merely good...to great.

[Socratov]

If I might add my 2 cp...

Welcome to IMO the most fun and versatile class there is. Vecna knows the Rogue tries hard, but bard all the way!

Lore bard is fantastic: between the cutting words, the CHA focus and the bard's spell list you can be a control maniac, a great face and make sure your party stays alive and kicking (ass).

With fighter/fighter/ranger going on in the rest of the party you can forgo the dealing of damage and tanking, as well as scouting. That said, you will want to work on your infiltration game. Thieves tools, sleight of hand, stealth and acrobatics will definitely help your party a lot.

Then there is the question of buffs. Counterspell and Haste will be your earliest picks: one for the martials, another to counter the enemy. Jack of All trades applies to initiative AND to the counterspell check. Also, remember that if someone is going to counterspell you, you can use cutting words on their counterspell check...

As for spellselection, you have more then enough damage in the party, make sure they can apply it. Hold person and Hold Monster are fantastic, but early level there is nothing as making your enemies glow pink and sparkle (Fearie Fire) having them literally ROFL (removing them form the fight temporarily), and I will personally edit your sheet if you don't take the most brilliant gem of all of 5e: Vicious Mockery. A cantrip (you can cast this all day, every day) that deals a modest amount of damage (as in d4) in a fantastic damage type (Psychic) and has the perfect rider: disadvantage on their next attack. And it allows you to, when used, sling any insult at your target and this time hurts will hurt them. I'd advice you to keep a list handy. I have said it before, but VM is the reason I said yes to 5e.

I hope my 2 cp helped. For the rest I'll refer to the guide linked before, it's quite complete.

[agnos]

would you suggest going cleric1/bard1 to start or progressing the bard now and dip in later?

note the party is currently fighter,fighter,ranger.

Bard 1/Cleric 1/Bard X is my preferred path. You get Bane, Fairie Fire, Dissonant Whispers and Vicious Mockery for battlefield control. Cleric lets you ignore taking healing spells with your fewer Bard spells known plus gives you Bless and medium arrow/shields.

If you really want to be geared towards support/debuff/buff role then UA Forge Domain is strong (as are Life and Knowledge).

[andelson]

With a two level dip in warlock you can he get dps that close to your dps and if you pick up the hex spell you can match it twice a day. Then normal just use debuff make the rest party job easier. They got some good debuff hypotic pattern(for groups) and curse(**** on one person) both on there list. You get healing word to save get people up after they hit zero. Heat metal good also. There a good guide some where if you search for it.

[studderingdave]

I ended up going clr1/brd1. Life domain heavy armor and shield for a more iconic cleric look (I even took a mace to complete the outfit). Spells are a smattering of control prompts with some defacto healing. Healer feat makes me a good support piece for the pair of fighters in the party. Encumbrance seems like less of an issue and str 14 seems to suit me fine. Feeling pretty good about it initially. Going to run a few more levels of bard before I dip into warlock.

[rooneg]

With a two level dip in warlock you can he get dps that close to your dps and if you pick up the hex spell you can match it twice a day. Then normal just use debuff make the rest party job easier. They got some good debuff hypotic pattern(for groups) and curse(**** on one person) both on there list. You get healing word to save get people up after they hit zero. Heat metal good also. There a good guide some where if you search for it.

The two level warlock dip is certainly a valid option, but I think it's a significant investment in levels that essentially just gives you the ability to cast Eldritch Blast for a bunch of damage. If you wanted to spam eldritch blast why are you a bard in the first place? Those are rounds you could have spent on vicious mockery so the paladin can land a super strong smite, etc. I think the Bard shines when it does Bard stuff, not when it takes time off from it to cast Eldritch Blast.

[Willie the Duck]

I would agree with that assessment. While a bard can survive a 3 level dip away for benefits, it delays where it truly starts to shine (Font of Inspiration, Magic Secrets) to the 8th/9th level. The one danger of over multiclassing and dipping is that you end up being a collection of nice features, rather than an whole class.

[Specter]

I ended up going clr1/brd1. Life domain heavy armor and shield for a more iconic cleric look (I even took a mace to complete the outfit). Spells are a smattering of control prompts with some defacto healing. Healer feat makes me a good support piece for the pair of fighters in the party. Encumbrance seems like less of an issue and str 14 seems to suit me fine. Feeling pretty good about it initially. Going to run a few more levels of bard before I dip into warlock.

I say healer's not even necessary, unless you're facing really long adventuring days. Not a bad feat at all, but kinda redundant with Life Cleric.

Also second not going Warlock, three's a crowd.

[JAL_1138]

Bard dips cap off at two levels' worth, IMO, unless you're building for 20th or you're not trying to stay as something that works well as a bard instead of as its own thing (Paladin 6/Lore 14, for example, isn't a very good bard and loses some good features from a pure Pally too, but is very good as its own thing). The Warlock dip would get you a potent version of Eldritch Blast, but since you've already dipped Cleric, would end up costing more in delayed class features and spellcasting than it's worth IMO.

If you really really want better at-will damage, the one area bards lack a bit, when you hit 7th level overall (Bard 6) you could use Magical Secrets to pick up the Greenflame Blade cantrip (if the Sword Coast Adventurers' Guide is allowed) and be reasonably good in melee from there on out. When you get it at 7th, you'd be dealing (Weapon dice)+(Str or Dex, whichever you're using)+1d8 fire to one creature and 1d8+Cha to a second creature within 5ft of the first. It would cost a Magical Secret to get, which is a high price, and doesn't do as much damage as Eldritch Blast, but it does decent-enough damage and wouldn't be delaying your bard levels like a Warlock dip would.