Power Level of this Build?

[LordOfCain]

I would like an opinion of the approximate tier/power level of this build at each level from 1 to 6:
Halfling
Ability Scores: Str: 6 Con: 10 Dex: 20 Int: 10 Wis: 14 Cha: 8
Martial Monk 1 Feats (w/ Flaws): Aberration Blood (1st Level), Inhuman Reach (Flaw), Extended Reach (Flaw), & Whirlwind Attack (Martial Monk)
Fighter 1 Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) (Fighter Bonus)
Rogue 1 Feat: Craven
Fighter 2 Feat: Weapon Finesse
Arcane Swordsage 1
Arcane Swordsage 2 Feat: Shadowblade
Thank you for helping me.

[John Longarrow]

Lvl 1 - Very weak. Can't do much out side of combat and isn't really good in combat yet. The penalty from small with a low STR means you won't do much damage and you lack the skills for much outside of combat since its Monk based.

Lvl 2 - Very weak, all of the problems at lvl 1 but now you can use a reach weapon.

Lvl 3 - Very weak. All of the problems of the first two levels but you haven't gotten your BAB above +1 to mitigate them. Craven isn't nearly as powerful if you don't have a dedicated sneaky character. Halfling is OK for this, but not nearly as good as Whisper gnome. Low movement means craven won't kick in too often unless the monsters walk between you and someone else.

Lvl 4 - Very weak. You've finally caught up with the party wizard for BAB, but finesse lets you actually hit something. Lack of skill points means you are falling behind on doing anything out of combat.

Lvl 5 & Lvl 6 - Entirely dependent on what spells you choose. You'd have to list those. Arcane Swordsage itself can be tier 1, but check with your DM about what your casting stat is. If its charisma then you'r hosed. If its Int, your still hosed but not as bad.

Over all your building a flanking combatant that just doesn't deal the kind of damage a straight Swordsage-6 could kick out. More important you've only got one attack and one AOE at 6th level. This isn't going to one shot anyone and doesn't have the speed to really get around in a fight to use a lot of flanking.

[LordOfCain]

I'm thinking about dipping pounce barb. to get pounce. From my reading of pounce and whirlwind attack, you could use whirlwind attack with pounce. And spells would be swift invisibility, bite of the wererat, and mostly personal buff spells.

[John Longarrow]

I'm guessing your goal here is to sit behind another character, use island of blades to get flanking, and then hopefully hit something in combat. Is that about it?

If you can be pretty clear on your goal for this build we can give you better advice on how to make what you want. Also, do you know what roles in and out of combat you need to fill? Also what ranks in skills will you have to support what you are trying for?

[LordOfCain]

I'm guessing your goal here is to sit behind another character, use island of blades to get flanking, and then hopefully hit something in combat. Is that about it?

If you can be pretty clear on your goal for this build we can give you better advice on how to make what you want. Also, do you know what roles in and out of combat you need to fill? Also what ranks in skills will you have to support what you are trying for?
Basically, this is a fairly low op build though. My group does tend away from tier 1s and towards "standard" choices.

[John Longarrow]

For low power but still effective, how about something a bit different?

Build off of whisper gnome (Races of Stone) so you have a base speed of 30 and darkvision.

L1 - Barbarian-1 (for extra movement and HPs). Feat Maneuver Known (Shadow Blade Technique)
Full BAB plus you can roll twice to hit one time per fight.
L2 - Fighter-1 Bonus feat Feat Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain)
Full BAB plus now you have a reach weapon you will be able to finesse
L3 - Fighter-2 Feat Stance Known (Island of Blades), Bonus (Weapon Finesse)
Full BAB, you flank everyone, and you get to use dex to hit
L4 - Barbarian-2
Still keeping up BAB, plus more HPs.
L5 - Crusader-1. 3 of the 5 maneuvers would be damage adders (+2d6), with two of them overcoming DR.
Still keeping up BAB, important on a build like this.
L6- Crusader-2 Feat Shadow Blade

Once you hit level 6 you've got a BAB of 6 so you can pull off two attacks per round. You also should always be in your ONLY shadow hand stance, island of blades, unless you really need to heal up. Then you can switch to the crusader stance (probably healing based) and use your attack to heal yourself. Otherwise you get STR and DEX to damage on a weapon that is DEX to hit on a small character.

Upside compared to your halfling is your character is faster, much more rugged in combat, and able to up damage by 2d6 when needed OR go for the extra attacks. In combat option to heal while hurting enemies is great plus any time you've been hit you get a free bonus to hit/damage.

Over all this is a more survivable build but has the same limits.

NOTE: If you are using the abuse of Martial Monk to ignore bonus feat prereqs, you may as well grab one of the bonus feats for a fighter that is normally Epic. You may want to check with your DM before you assume they will let you grab whirlwind attack without the prereqs.

[Mato]

I would like an opinion of the approximate tier/power level of this build at each level from 1 to 6:T5, it's later T2 dip is the only thing that starts to improve it.


Halfling
Ability Scores: Str: 6 Con: 10 Dex: 20 Int: 10 Wis: 14 Cha: 8
Martial Monk 1 Feats (w/ Flaws): Aberration Blood (1st Level), Inhuman Reach (Flaw), Extended Reach (Flaw), & Whirlwind Attack (Martial Monk)If you increased that strength score you'd have a very potent combat ability that you can expect to out perform any other mundane on the field.

Protocreature out of Dragonlance and Wild out of Dragon #306 (I think) are +0 templates that will give you another +6 str by trading off your intelligence/charisma. You should also reduce your starting dexterity to increase your strength. Weapon finesse is ultimately a trap, at the cost of a feat slot you can use it to attack but still have to reinvest again for damage. And bonuses to dexterity are simply not as abundant as the bonuses you can find for strength which is something you're really going to learn as you progress through the game using the arcane swordsage's spell choices.


Fighter 1 Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) (Fighter Bonus)It's as bad as you should expect it to be. Fighter 1 gives +1 fort over monk but the second level of monk has +1 to relf/will & evasion over the fighter and through martial monk it can already access exotic weapon proficiency. You can also replace evasion with the ability to turn invisible which is amazing for defense/steath but while invisible you also gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls and attack your opponent's flat-footed AC so it's easily worth a +2~+4 bonus to attack.


Rogue 1 Feat: CravenI bet you really wish you could turn invisible now don't you? Don't decrease your chances of doing anything to appear to be unoptimizing, just deal less with each hit instead. That way each round you can do something.


Basically, this is a fairly low op build though. My group does tend away from tier 1s and towards "standard" choices.I think if your group considers dragon obscured martial monks picking up any fighter feats they like and arcane swordsage is a low op standard choices, you can choose to be anything you want as long as you avoid writing "wizard" on your sheet.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Lvl 1 - Very weak.
Lvl 2 - Very weak
Lvl 3 - Very weak.
Lvl 4 - Very weak.
Lvl 5 & Lvl 6 - Entirely dependent on what spells you choose.
Pretty much this. You've got one trick-- reach-- and pretty much nothing else. The Rogue dip can be put off, or better yet abandoned altogether-- I'm not sure how you intend to land Sneak Attacks on multiple targets. Meanwhile, Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade should come as soon as possible-- level 1, by preference. Get yourself the ability to actually hit someone before you worry about attacking extra targets. Something more like this, say:

1st-- BAB +0-- Swordsage 1: Shadow Blade (1st), Weapon Focus (sort of; bonus), Aberration Blood (Flaw), Extended Reach (Flaw)
2nd-- BAB +1-- Fighter 1: Weapon Finesse (bonus)
3rd-- BAB +1-- Martial Monk 1: EWP (3rd), Whirlwind Attack (bonus)
4th-- BAB +2-- Invisible Fist Martial Monk 2: Weapon Weapon Mastery (bonus) An ACF from Exemplars of Evil, it lets you turn invisible as an immediate action once every three rounds. Which is beautifully fun, and also a great way to Sneak Attack dudes. Weapon Supremacy, meanwhile, gives you +2 attack and damage, which helps make up for all this dipping-into-medium-BAB-classes you're doing.
5th-- BAB +2-- Rogue 1
6th-- BAB +3-- Swordsage 2: Craven (6th). Note that those four non-Swordsage levels we just took give us +2 initiator level, letting you take higher-level maneuvers than you'd expect.

You start off with more skill points, an extra attack booster, and the added utility of maneuvers; you pick up your main trick (fully-Dex-based-AoE) sooner, and have a more reliable way to trigger sneak attack. You still have low-BAB problem, but picking up Weapon Supremacy should cancel that out for non-iterative attacks, and maneuvers mean you don't need to make iterative attacks.

[LordOfCain]

Thanks a lot for the example build.

[Nifft]

Ability Scores: Str: 6 Con: 10 Dex: 20 Int: 10 Wis: 14 Cha: 8

That Con... yikes. I'd much prefer to have Con 14 + Dex 18.

Since apparently you're planning to melee, I'd suggest having at least 10 Str, ideally 13+ Str for Power Attack. A Halfling with a spiked chain can convert his size bonus & Dex bonus into significant damage, but you need Power Attack to do that conversion.

Also, I see Extended Reach in your build, but the feat says you need tentacles or feelers or other non-jointed limbs to qualify.


Are you playing this from level 1, or are you starting at level 6?

[LordOfCain]

That Con... yikes. I'd much prefer to have Con 14 + Dex 18.

Since apparently you're planning to melee, I'd suggest having at least 10 Str, ideally 13+ Str for Power Attack. A Halfling with a spiked chain can convert his size bonus & Dex bonus into significant damage, but you need Power Attack to do that conversion.

Also, I see Extended Reach in your build, but the feat says you need tentacles or feelers or other non-jointed limbs to qualify.


Are you playing this from level 1, or are you starting at level 6?

Your arms elongate, allowing you to touch the fl oor with your hands. In addition, you can bend them in strange and unnatural ways. The arms may vary in appearance, perhaps seeming scaly and snakelike, or slimy like tentacles; conversely, they may resemble normal but longer arms with a second elbow joint. Unless you wear a large cloak to conceal these deformities, you are disturbing to behold. I believe this qualifies.

[Nifft]

I believe this qualifies.

Ah, I see. Could require DM approval, since it only says "looks like" tentacles, but that might indeed work.

Thanks!

Now, at what level are you starting?

[LordOfCain]

Ah, I see. Could require DM approval, since it only says "looks like" tentacles, but that might indeed work.

Thanks!

Now, at what level are you starting?

The DM hasn't decided yet but prefers 1-6 and said it would be a low level campaign (i.e. 1-6) hence why I planned the build from level 1 to level 6.

[Nifft]

The DM hasn't decided yet but prefers 1-6 and said it would be a low level campaign (i.e. 1-6) hence why I planned the build from level 1 to level 6.

If you're allowed to be an arcane Swordsage then I'd recommend 6 levels of that.

You'd get 3rd level spells & maneuvers.

[LordOfCain]

If you're allowed to be an arcane Swordsage then I'd recommend 6 levels of that.

You'd get 3rd level spells & maneuvers.

I know but I would like to have whirlwind attack and other similar martial arts themed abilities. Also, would I be able to take spellcasting prestige classes as an arcane swordsage? Would the spell maneuvers qualify and would the +1 level of spell casting advance maneuvers?

[Mato]

I know but I would like to have whirlwind attack and other similar martial arts themed abilities. Also, would I be able to take spellcasting prestige classes as an arcane swordsage? Would the spell maneuvers qualify and would the +1 level of spell casting advance maneuvers?Yes and yes.

* Prestigious Classes and Martial Adapts.
ASS meets most if not all Spellcasting requirements. He meets CL, Spellcaster Level, and can cast X Spell (if he learned it) just fine. Due to the lack of Spell Known/Slot some benefits may be inapplicable. Instancing also applies, for instance a Cleric/Wizard cannot spontaneous give up his Wizard-sided Grease Spell to cast Cure Light Wounds. An ASS can learn actual Maneuvers by multiclassing or even picking up the Martial Study Feat.The breakdown is a little rough in it's wording, but you can read through the rest of the post if you have any questions about the adaption.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I know but I would like to have whirlwind attack and other similar martial arts themed abilities. Also, would I be able to take spellcasting prestige classes as an arcane swordsage? Would the spell maneuvers qualify and would the +1 level of spell casting advance maneuvers?
But... the... Swordsage... is martial arts themed abilities? Like, the entirety of the class?

[LordOfCain]

But... the... Swordsage... is martial arts themed abilities? Like, the entirety of the class?
LOL, I know but I also like the martial monk's autoqualify for all fighter feats. So maybe I should do martial invisible fist monk 2/arcane swordsage X with maybe some casting prestige classes.

[John Longarrow]

Oh, didn't know you wanted a martial arts feel... In that case
Lvl 1 Ranger-1 Feat Imp Unarmed Strike
Lvl 2 Ranger-2 TWF Style
Lvl 3 Fighter-1 Feat Imp Unarmed Strike (ToB), Bonus Feat Weapon finesse
Lvl 4 Fighter-2 Bonus Feat Wpn Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Lvl 5 Sword Sage-1
Lvl 6 Sword Sage-2 Feat Shadow Blade

Lvl 7+ goes back to Ranger until you've got all the TWF feats.

This plays out as "The old guy meditating in the woods, practicing his Kung Fu for decades. Really into nature and the whole circle of life. Can also wear armor while doing his martial arts.

Also, if I understand what you are trying for, you'll never be able to use Shadow blade with your original build. Shadow blade requires a Shadow hand stance and the Arcane version of Sword Sage doesn't get maneuvers or stances, instead they get spells.

[Nifft]

Also, if I understand what you are trying for, you'll never be able to use Shadow blade with your original build. Shadow blade requires a Shadow hand stance and the Arcane version of Sword Sage doesn't get maneuvers or stances, instead they get spells.
That's incorrect.

Arcane Swordage can replace a maneuver with a spell of equal level.

Nowhere does the adaptation mention losing maneuvers or stances -- in fact, that would cause the adaptation mechanic to read as nonsense.

[Grod_The_Giant]

LOL, I know but I also like the martial monk's autoqualify for all fighter feats. So maybe I should do martial invisible fist monk 2/arcane swordsage X with maybe some casting prestige classes.
That's probably more like what you're looking for, yeah. I'd still start Swordsage-- you really want to minimize any levels where you have to use Str 6 to attack.

[John Longarrow]

That's incorrect.

Arcane Swordage can replace a maneuver with a spell of equal level.

Nowhere does the adaptation mention losing maneuvers or stances -- in fact, that would cause the adaptation mechanic to read as nonsense.

For me, I read the adaptation, "by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of the equivalent level", to mean they would get spells but not maneuvers/stances. If they can freely choose a maneuver OR a spell every time they qualify this gets to be total cheese.

[Nifft]

For me, I read the adaptation, "by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of the equivalent level", to mean they would get spells but not maneuvers/stances. If they can freely choose a maneuver OR a spell every time they qualify this gets to be total cheese.
You're reading things that aren't said.

It is indeed cheesy, and that's exactly why it gets recommended as a T2 class.

[Mato]

Arcane Swordage can replace a maneuver with a spell of equal level.Actually it says "the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers". Which given the removal of the plural form in your statement in order to support your interpretation I'm sure you realize the complications the text has with your personal choice.


For me, I read the adaptation, "by giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of the equivalent level", to mean they would get spells but not maneuvers/stances. If they can freely choose a maneuver OR a spell every time they qualify this gets to be total cheese.You're not the only one. But LordOfCain's DM seems very liberal with the rules, it may be possible for him to receive permission for such.

Which is also the point of this post, @OP see what your DM says. But try to avoid walking down the path that adaptive style and multi-classing works on your spells because no one in there right mind would call that a low op standard, you may in fact be walking into a game that pits you against epic level deity cat vendors and prismatic dragon rail roaded sandbox play. eg something totally nonsensical.

[John Longarrow]

More specific, if you want the Arcane version of Sword Sage talk to your DM to see if they have it and if so, how they run it. It is under "Adaptation" so there isn't a single way this is done.

[Nifft]

Actually it says "the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers". Which given the removal of the plural form in your statement in order to support your interpretation I'm sure you realize the complications the text has with your personal choice. Actually it says: "... giving the swordsage the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers of equivalent level." This gives the swordsage the option, not the requirement, to learn arcane spells. Yeah, it's strong -- but honestly, just having at-will spells which refresh as a Full Round Action is most of that strength. Allowing maneuvers to mix in -- which is what the adaptation text actually says -- isn't much stronger.

There aren't any "complications the text has" with my interpretation. You know maneuvers. You have the ability to learn arcane spells in place of maneuvers -- you're not required to use that ability.

I don't see any way to twist even your interpretation into a prohibition against learning Stances, though. And that is what we're talking about here.

[John Longarrow]

OP, can you let us know what your DM says you can do with an "Arcane Sword Sage" and if he's even allowing it into his game? If he's not, talking about it more doesn't make any sense. Once you let us know what your DM is allowing/not allowing we can help you more.

[LordOfCain]

OP, can you let us know what your DM says you can do with an "Arcane Sword Sage" and if he's even allowing it into his game? If he's not, talking about it more doesn't make any sense. Once you let us know what your DM is allowing/not allowing we can help you more.
Let's assume he said it is by the book, decrease HD size/armor proficiency and you can pick spells as maneuvers, although you don't have to.

[John Longarrow]

If your DM will let you use spells instead of maneuvers, here's some I'd suggest.

Alter Self - Turn into something with high NA or movements that you can't otherwise get
Invisibility - Pretty obvious why
Mage Armor - Secondary defense but can be invaluable in some fights
Melf's Acid Arrow - Long range touch attack with OK damage, no SR, no Save
Mirror Image - Really good defence thats close to invisibility for usefulness.
Resist Energy - Protect the entire party against all types.
RopeTrick - Easy way to avoid problems with sleeping at night
Shield - Kinda obvious
Spider Climb - For when Alter self just won't cut it
Wraithstrike - If you can get power attack this is golden.

If your not sold on halfling I'd suggest going with either Aasimar or Teifling. That way you get outsider and can Alter Self into a Dwarf Ancestor (MM IV) for large size and +14 NA.

[Nifft]

Let's assume he said it is by the book, decrease HD size/armor proficiency and you can pick spells as maneuvers, although you don't have to.

I would still suggest looking at a Swordsage 6 build as the default, and then figure out if you can do better by stacking on Monk or whatnot.

In terms of spells, you get Evocations, Abjurations, and Transmutations. Of those, that last category is generally the good stuff.

Swordsage 1:
+ Spells & Maneuvers (6x L1): Shield (Abj), Jump (Trans), Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM), Shadow Blade Technique (SH), Sudden Leap (TC), Wolf Fang Strike (TC) <-- replace at level 4
+ Stance: Hunter's Sense (TC) or if you want Shadow Blade right now: Child of Shadow (SH)

Swordsage 2:
+ Spell or Maneuver (L1): Burning Hands (Evoc)
+ Stance: Step of the Wind (SS)

Swordsage 3:
+ Spell or Maneuver (L2): Alter Self (Trans) <-- this is where you become awesome

Swordsage 4:
+ Spell or Maneuver (L2): Wolf Fang Strike (TC) -> Cloak of Deception (SH), Mountain Hammer (SD)

Swordage 5:
+ Spell or Maneuver (L3): Dispel Magic (Abj) / Fireball (Evoc) / Slow (Trans)
+ Stance: Assassin's Stance (SH)

Swordsage 6:
+ Spell or Maneuver (L3): Soaring Raptor Strike (TC)

------

Feats might go like:
L1: Adaptive Style
L3: Weapon Finesse
L6: Shadow Blade

As a martial artist, you are doing wire-fu stuff, jumping all over the place in defiance of gravity.

If you have access to non-core spells, then obviously you'll have better options there.