Arguing about what it means to be strong across media.

[Traab]

Ok, so, I got into a youtube fight with someone over who the strongest character in naruto is. I dont mean strong wills or any of that claptrap, but it came up with the big might guy versus madera fight where guy got so strong his last attack literally warped space around it. I pointed out that I thought guy was the strongest because all of his power is his own, while a large amount of what made naruto kick all of the butt in his universe was external powerups. Basically, my argument was that naruto capped out at the pein arc with his sage mode and everything after that involved taking or otherwise mastering, sources of power that wasnt a part of him. He didnt train and practice and struggle to become the second sage of six paths or whatever, the first sage came to him and said, "Yo, have a power up, I gave sasuke one too" Yeah im simplifying but I think you get my point. Similar to demonic sage mode. It was basically, "Hey, what if I took your power and added it to mine?"

The bottom line for me is, I wouldnt claim that I am super strong because I can borrow a forklift and pickup a car. I didnt pick it up, the machine did. Do you think thats a decent comparison? Do you think I have a point? If not, why not? Would you place the cutoff point in a different spot for naruto? Would you place one at all?

[Chen]

Using some sort of technology to do the work for you (forklift) isn't the same as using some sort of supernatural power-up that lets you do it (say something like the Phoenix force).

If the statement is just "who is the strongest" without any other qualifiers, I'd include power-ups that gave the person new powers.

[Traab]

Using some sort of technology to do the work for you (forklift) isn't the same as using some sort of supernatural power-up that lets you do it (say something like the Phoenix force).

If the statement is just "who is the strongest" without any other qualifiers, I'd include power-ups that gave the person new powers.

Ok so, by that reckoning, you wouldnt consider samus powerful beyond her natural abilities because of all the goodies she finds being tech that does the damage for her? Whereas, I dunno, card captor sakura IS powerful because she has all those magic cards to support her? Im just trying to understand where the line is for various people.

[Douglas]

Perhaps a better way to look at it would be to consider whether the powerup or tool is considered part of the character's identity. Naruto having the Kyuubi and being the reincarnation of Ashura are part of his character; if you took those away it fundamentally wouldn't be the same character in a way.

Samus has her suit, Iron Man has his suit, Bruce Banner and Captain America have their respective attempts at super soldier serums, Thor has his hammer, and Naruto has Kurama and Ashura's chakra.

[Traab]

Perhaps a better way to look at it would be to consider whether the powerup or tool is considered part of the character's identity. Naruto having the Kyuubi and being the reincarnation of Ashura are part of his character; if you took those away it fundamentally wouldn't be the same character in a way.

Samus has her suit, Iron Man has his suit, Bruce Banner and Captain America have their respective attempts at super soldier serums, Thor has his hammer, and Naruto has Kurama and Ashura's chakra.

I will be honest, I kinda waffle back and forth on naruto, especially with kyuubi seeing as, while it IS a separate source of power, its one thats been a part of him his whole life, and also, even indirectly, has been a big influence on his potential. After all, even when NOT using his power, he has a healing factor, far more chakra, and greater stamina than most would have, simply because the demon is passively boosting all these stats.

[Kyberwulf]

Power is Power. It doesn't matter that you aren't the source of it. It doesn't matter who or what is lifting the car. Just that you can get the job done. All it means is that that form of power is something that can be taken away from you fairly easy.

[Starwulf]

I will be honest, I kinda waffle back and forth on naruto, especially with kyuubi seeing as, while it IS a separate source of power, its one thats been a part of him his whole life, and also, even indirectly, has been a big influence on his potential. After all, even when NOT using his power, he has a healing factor, far more chakra, and greater stamina than most would have, simply because the demon is passively boosting all these stats.

And yet, there were also significant drawbacks UNTIL he mastered Kurama's power, ala: Poor Chakra Control(he had to fight and scrap for every bit of control he did get). Inability to maintain his sense of self when using more then a 1-2 tails worth of power(he basically went Berserk on Orochimaru at 3, and when Orochimaru continued to goad him he zipped straight into 4th tail mode, and then again on Pein in 8 tail mode, and at least in the Orochimaru fight, he did actually hurt Sakura. One could even argue he was starting to significantly lose it against Sasuke in the VoTE at just two tails worth of power). He also had to deal with not exactly being liked until he became a genin(as evidenced by opening scenes at least in the Anime, showing him always being alone, crying because other parents would take their kids away). As far as I'm concerned, he earned every bit of the power-up involving using Kurama's Chakra. Becoming the 2nd Sage of Six Paths on the other hand....ehh not so much.