Looking for fun LA 4+ builds

[Stryyke]

My GM seems to love to kill us off. In the past 8 months, I have had to roll up 6 characters. I'm starting to run out of ideas for my new characters. The game is 4 LA mandatory buyoff. The group has 2 barbs, 1 necro, and 1 dark priest. I was thinking of doing something in the skill-monkey genre, but I'm looking for good RP and monster buyoff ideas. The campaign is mostly evil, but if you can survive, you can be anything. The GM is flexible in terms of sources, as long as it's pretty well balanced. I can buyoff up to LA 8, but the minimum is 4. LA8 would, of course, mean no class levels.

Thusfar I have done, bard, fighter, ranger, sorcerer, wizard, and barbarian. I don't prefer straight clerics, but I may be able to sell a druid that can be in cities if the story of "why" is fleshed out.

Please. The more ideas the better. I have a feeling I will need several more characters before we are high enough level to survive. Thanks.

[Troacctid]

You can't have all LA and no class levels, so the functional max would actually be 7.

Off the top of my head, some good templates include phrenic, half-fey, shadow, mineral warrior, Mulhorandi divine minion, Lolth-touched, saint, dark, and draconic.

[John Longarrow]

Pixie is the first that comes to mind as a LA 4.

[Stryyke]

I was thinking about perhaps a shapechanger. Do you have more information on the Mulhorandi Divine Minion build? That a shapechanging build, right?

[Stryyke]

Yea. I wanted to do Pixie, but DM said no because we had a pixie a while back. And GM said pixies are too rare to have them all the time.

[Troacctid]

I was thinking about perhaps a shapechanger. Do you have more information on the Mulhorandi Divine Minion build? That a shapechanging build, right?
Not a build, just a template. You can give it to any class you like; it's just generically good. Here's the link: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a

[ace rooster]

Drider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider.htm)? Full caster HD with +6 to casting stats. Come in cleric, wizard and sorcerer flavours. Might be too high level though, ECL 10.

Or again, probably too high level, but who wouldn't want to play a wyrmling red dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon)? not that effective, but 6 skill points per HD.

A xill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/xill.htm) might fit too, ECL9 outsider with 4 arms.

You never get high enough level to survive, you get high enough level that resurection is cheap. :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

Oh yeah, some other non-template races worth looking at: Hobgoblin Warcaster, Marrulurk, Cheshire Cat, Gloura, Aranea, Dvati, Arkamoi, and Unbodied.

[plinths]

Lolth-Touched (+1) leopard (+3?) Psychic Warrior
base stats: 22 str, 19 dex, 21 con, 2 int, 12 wis, 6 cha
alignment: chaotic evil

When you can, find a Druid to cast Awaken. (1700 gp) for +3d6 int.

[Inevitability]

Lolth-Touched (+1) leopard (+3?) Psychic Warrior
base stats: 22 str, 19 dex, 21 con, 2 int, 12 wis, 6 cha
alignment: chaotic evil

When you can, find a Druid to cast Awaken. (1700 gp) for +3d6 int.

Leopard has a LA of —, making it unplayable. It probably doesn't deserve a LA, though.

A smaller nitpick: awaken resets your intelligence to 3d6: it doesn't add to it.

[Stryyke]

May be able to get the best of both worlds. Is natural Lycanthropy ever worth it? I could do a Human Lolth-touched Were-leopard. That's only LA 7 (3 natural lycanthrope + 3 leopard HD + Lolth-touched).

[Inevitability]

May be able to get the best of both worlds. Is natural Lycanthropy ever worth it? I could do a Human Lolth-touched Were-leopard. That's only LA 7 (3 natural lycanthrope + 3 leopard HD + Lolth-touched).

HD does not equal LA. You'd end up with 4 LA (which presumably gets bought off) and 3 RHD (which you'll be stuck with forever).

It's not like leopard is particularly strong either.

[plinths]

May be able to get the best of both worlds. Is natural Lycanthropy ever worth it? I could do a Human Lolth-touched Were-leopard. That's only LA 7 (3 natural lycanthrope + 3 leopard HD + Lolth-touched).

Eh, if you don't want to be an actual animal, then just be a Lolth-touched Werebear. +4 LA total.

[Inevitability]

Eh, if you don't want to be an actual animal, then just be a Lolth-touched Werebear. +4 LA total.

+4 LA and 3 to 12 crappy RHD.

[Nifft]

Lycanthropy is regarded as a curse because animal RHD are so awful.

Don't be a lycanthrope on purpose.

---

One of my favorite templates is Shadow Creature (from Lords of Madness). It's LA +2, and gives you fun at-will abilities every 4 HD (min 1), including stuff like fast healing or Evasion. So you'd start with one ability at 1 HD, and get a 2nd ability at 8 HD, a 3rd at 12 HD, etc. You also get cold resistance, +50% speed, and total concealment in any conditions other than full daylight.

[lylsyly]

Drider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/drider.htm)? Full caster HD with +6 to casting stats. Come in cleric, wizard and sorcerer flavours. Might be too high level though, ECL 10.

Just use the Drider monster class from Savage Species p.163, although HD kinda blow (well so does BAB, CL ect.) but if your going to die anyway ... ;).

Look through Appendix 1 of savage species, may actually be something there that will suit.

Good luck

[icefractal]

I was thinking about perhaps a shapechanger. Do you have more information on the Mulhorandi Divine Minion build? That a shapechanging build, right?Very shapechanging oriented. Check out a Master of Many Forms guide - if MDM is ruled to qualify (a debated subject), then you can change shapes as a free action.

Also note that by RAW, MDM lets you heal to full as a free action, with or without MoMF (Wildshape restores HP, MDM gives Wildshape at will as a free action). So unless the game is very high-powered, you'll probably want to houserule that.

As for what to do with the other 3 LA ... Phrenic, maybe? Boosting physical stats doesn't have much point if you're going to be shapeshifted most of the time.

[Karl Aegis]

Half-dragon Large Size Monstrous Humanoid. Wings, natural weapons, good BAB, 2 good saves, 3 immunities, 2 vision modes, d10 hit dice, 6+int skill points per racial hit dice, and a handful of natural armor. If you can find a monstrous humanoid with a decent skill list you can be a good skill-monkey. If not, you could just be a minotaur for the pseudo-immunity to flat-footed and spot and listen as class skills.

[Stryyke]

MoMF looks great. Exactly what I was looking for. Only problem is that I have to be Druid 5 to take the PrC. I'm starting at lvl 3, and I've gained exactly 1 level in the past 8 months. So lvl 5 is a ways out. But perhaps I can talk with my GM about letting it slide. I won't be gaining more than a level or 2 with it anyway. Either that or I'll just hold that in my back pocket until we get to lvl 5.

I was also thinking about a pure summoning build. My thought would be that my character is a real coward that runs at the first sign of conflict. He would drop a summoned creature to help him escape either by holding the enemy at bay, or wisking him away. The biggest problem I've seen is that until Summon Monster III comes around, there are no worthwhile summons to take. Is there a build, or an alternate set of summons that will allow me to survive from lvl 1-3 or 4? I know the summon animal is better, especially at low level, but I'll never get to summon monster III if I spend levels as a druid. Any ideas?

[Stryyke]

@Karl Aegis

I was contemplating a Half-dragon Centaur Ranger as one of my upcoming builds, but I need 2 more levels to get there.

[Stryyke]

@Nifft

The base animals are pretty bad, but a dire hawk, for instance, starts with 5 hd on a d8. That's not so bad. I would have to wait for one more level to do any of the "dire" options, but unlimited shape change, +8 listen, +8 move silently, +10 spot, and dex +12, and DR 10/silver is pretty appealing.

[Troacctid]

@Nifft

The base animals are pretty bad, but a dire hawk, for instance, starts with 5 hd on a d8. That's not so bad. I would have to wait for one more level to do any of the "dire" options, but unlimited shape change, +8 listen, +8 move silently, +10 spot, and dex +12, and DR 10/silver is pretty appealing.
That is VERY bad.

The best lycanthropes are the ones with fractional HD, because they round down to zero. So like raven, for example. And you would never be a natural lycanthrope, afflicted is waaay better. And even the best lycanthropes are miles behind Mulhorandi divine minion. I would strongly recommend against lycanthrope. The bang-to-buck ratio is unacceptably low.

[Stryyke]

@troacctid

I may be thinking incorrectly, and if I am, please educate me; but I think I would want to take anything with good animal hd. I can only start at class level 1, 2, or 3, depending on how many LA I take. I have to take 4 LA no matter what. I can't convert those into levels. So if I can start as a lvl 1 rogue with 1d6 + 5d8 hd, I don't see how that's problematic. Sure I could be a lvl 3 rogue with 3d6 + 1/2 dwhatever hd, and he would have more skill points and an additional feat. But isn't the stuff I mentioned more than worth that?

[Troacctid]

HD take the place of class levels. No amount of animal HD is going to be as good as the same amount of class levels. For example, let's say instead of 5d8 animal HD, you took 5 levels of druid. Now you can still turn into a dire hawk, but you also have a bucket of powerful druid abilities on top of it, and it didn't even cost you any LA.

[PrismCat21]

Well shoot, ninja'd by Troacctid while writing it up. :)

You say you're starting with 3 class levels right? With a mandatory 4 LA.
If you choose anything creature that gives you more than 1 racial hit dice, the racial hit dice will replace your class levels no matter how many free LA you have.

If your DM is doing it a different way that's cool. We just need to know about it in order to give you the proper advice.

Right now you couldn't even be a were-dire hawk because it has 5 racial hit dice, and you're only allowed 3 levels (or HD of classes)

[Stryyke]

I see what you are saying. The animal "progression" REPLACES that many hit die of class progression. So if I take LA 1 I can't take 1 class and 1 dire hawk. I essentially just lose 3 LA, and my first 3 levels would, theoretically, be replaced by 3hd of dire hawk.

I was under the impression that I could use 3 LA for monster hd too. I'll have to ask my GM to clarify that for me. I've been making my characters all wrong if that's the case LOL.

Supposing I find out that my GM is fine with me using 1 LA and the remaining LA for monstrous HD, would that change things?

[Troacctid]

I'd recommend that your DM not allow that, as it would be potentially problematic for game balance. But if your DM did allow it, you would be strongly incentivized to play a race with RHD and a low LA. I'd personally be inclined towards marrulurk. Lycanthrope is still not worth it.

[PrismCat21]

Tremendously. If you are able to use racial hit dice in place of LA, you have many more options for monstrous characters.
Some lycanthropes could become viable options for you.

You could be a Centaur like you wanted, and still have room for 1 class level OR +1LA template. Adding Dragon born would be free and you'd have a choice of a breath weapon, wings to glide with (can't fly quite yet), or dark vision. Draconic is a +1 LA template that'll boost a couple stats and give him claws. Or give him 1 level of Ranger.
A Dragonborn Centaur with 1 level of Ranger would have good melee stats and a total of 5 HD. (4 racial, 1 from Ranger)

Edit: I believe class levels would still be better, but if you want to play a monstrous character it could work.

[Stryyke]

Yep. He said we can trade leftover LA for monstrous hit die.

Incidentally, I haven't been able to find the actual template for dragonborn. What book is it in, and do you have a link?

[Inevitability]

Yep. He said we can trade leftover LA for monstrous hit die.

Incidentally, I haven't been able to find the actual template for dragonborn. What book is it in, and do you have a link?

It's in Races of the Dragon; here's (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) a link.

[ZamielVanWeber]

If you want lycanthrope, may I recommend entomanthrope? It is worse in some ways but better in others, especially with the immunity to mind affecting. Choose aren't spider as your vermin and for a few RHD and 2 LA you have immunity to mind affecting and a free action teleport every round, along with poison.

[icefractal]

MoMF looks great. Exactly what I was looking for. Only problem is that I have to be Druid 5 to take the PrC. I'm starting at lvl 3, and I've gained exactly 1 level in the past 8 months. So lvl 5 is a ways out. But perhaps I can talk with my GM about letting it slide. I won't be gaining more than a level or 2 with it anyway. Either that or I'll just hold that in my back pocket until we get to lvl 5.If you can use Divine Minion, then you don't need any Druid levels for it; you can enter at level 2, or at level 1 if you use some of your LA for RHD.

If you are entering via Druid, then you may get more mileage out of Planar Shepherd than MoMF. Almost as good at shapeshifting (better in certain ways) and it progresses casting, which the MoMF doesn't.

[Thurbane]

Unholy Scion is a pretty rad template at LA +5.

How about Arkemoi? Good for a Sorcerer chassis, although LA +4 seems too expensive...

[Rizban]

At +4 LA, I'm kind of a fan of a Feral Armand... The problem is the 5 RHD... :smalltongue:

I also like any 1HD +0 LA creature with the Air Element Creature template (Manual of the Planes).