Don't tell me what a Bladelock isn't, tell me what it is...

[Willie the Duck]

Okay, nearly every conversation I see that mentions the bladelock can be reduced down to roughly, "too many people think the bladelock is ____" (usually "front-line combatant). What I want to know is, what is a bladelock then? What builds (including attributes, weapons of choices, other-class dips, ASIs/feats, races, spells,) do you choose, and how do you play them?

Actual play experience is appreciated, but any insight into this (sub-)class is appreciated. It's a little frustrating to see mostly how not do do something without the inferred how to advice. Thanks in advance!

[Lombra]

The bladelock is a character that wants to deal lots of damage with weapons and can cast debuffs on the enemies to do his job the easy-way. Bladelocks that want to be frontliners will use the most of their resources to buff themselves in order to survive longer. Bladelocks can also not be frontliners, sure, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be. Bladelocks are hard to craft and aren't very flexible, and shine the most at late levels rather then early.
Bladelocks also cover a good role outside the battle, high charisma and charm spells allow them to influence npcs too.

[Millstone85]

I am going to throw in the blatantly unfun answer.

A bladelock is a warlock who has prepared themself for the eventuality of getting stuck in melee. Specifically, they have selected a pact weapon as their 3rd level feature and maybe a few invocations to go with it. This is not to be confused with their subclass, which was their choice of otherworldly patron.

Like any other warlock who wishes to survive and be of use to the party, a bladelock remains primarily an eldritch blaster. They go for the same builds a chainlock or a tomelock would use.

A bladelock is also a good ingredient for a multiclassed gish. That, however, is no longer a bladelock per say.

[gfishfunk]

Most simply put, the bladelock is a melee warlock. Whether or not it is the best at the role is immaterial.

I play mine as the only Frontline in my game.

[Mandragola]

There isn't just a single way to build a bladelock. The core thing is that you've got a character who has a top-tier ranged attack with eldritch blast and hex, who gets spells at the same rate as a full caster, and who can fight a bit in melee. Downsides tend to be a a low AC, average hp, MADness and not much mobility.

You have a choice when building a bladelock. Option one is to treat the blade a nice extra, rather like the book or familiar are, and mainly spam EB. Option two is to use it as your primary means of killing the enemy.

For option one, just take a fairly normal warlock with a decent dex score. I DMed for a halfling infernal pact bladelock with the criminal background. It was a fun character because she could sneak around, zap people, and sometimes stab people. Took down the end boss of the adventure with scorching ray, one of which critted.

If you want to spend time in melee you've got to find a way around a few problems. There's your AC for starters. Infernal pact is highly recommended here, becasue those temporary hp can make a huge difference.

Feats can seriously help, so for instance a moderately armoured variant human can easily get AC19 in half-plate and a shield, while hitting things with a rapier. The only problem with this option is that you've got your hands full, making spellcasting awkward. Counterspell is a fantastic spell, and you're missing out if you make yourself unable to cast it.

So an alternative, albeit a slightly crazy one, is to go for strength instead of dex. Take a variant human with +1 in strength and cha. Dump dex. Start with moderately armoured and strength 17. Then take heavily armoured at lvl 4, soon after you get your blade. Now you're able to wear plate and hit things with greatswords or polearms (so long as they are your pact blade, making you proficient). You can still cast spells while wielding a two-handed weapon, by just taking one hand off for a few seconds.

The other way to get proficiencies is to start out as a fighter at level 1. There are many advantages in this: con save proficiency and the ability to use any kind of weapons and armour you want are the main ones. A fighting style is also nice. But you're delaying some cool stuff, which could be painful.

[Socratov]

IMO the bladelock is a trap as its prerogative (being somewhat useful when it finds itself in melee) can be done almost just as well as by the tomelock. that said when it comes to dedicated investments into frontlining, that is something, if you are willing to invest almost everything into it, the bladelock can do it, but don't expect happiness. It comes together late (especially considering defence) but it is doable. ~ish.

If you want a magical warrior, please play a Bladesinger, Valor Bard or Eldritch Knight (not to mention Paladin and Ranger). if you want to not be left empty handed when you do find yourself in melee, get the feat crossbow master to apply EB in melee, get the shocking hands cantrip, or get a quarter staff with Shillelagh as a tomelock/chainlock.

otherwise, get hilldwarf and heavy weapon proficiency, focus on 2handed weapons, put the rest into CON and leave your cha low as you pick spells that depend on not cha.

Other options include armour of shadows, Dex and Con to not die, rapier. don't get Lifedrinker (as it keys off cha) and use a dagger in your offhand with Dual Wielding and mobility. Good luck.

[Gastronomie]

Some people use the term "Bladelock" to refer to single-class builds. Other people, like me, refer to the Fighter 1/Warlock X build as a"Bladelock". There's no definitive answer to the term, and it's no use arguing here, so I won't. (And I also would like others to refrain from "arguing" (very different from "expressing personal opinion") which is the right meaning of the word "Bladelock".)

At least, when people say that the "Bladelock is underpowered" or "Bladelocks are not a frontline combatant", they normally refer to the single-class build. I have never played a single-class Bladelock, so I cannot tell for sure whether these statements or true, but the reason I have never played it is because I fear they may be correct (I like staying in melee).

Speaking based on personal experience, STR-based 1/X Bladelocks are an extremely versatile and powerful multiclass build that can be amazing both as a Warrior and as a Caster. I use my Invocations not on empowering EB, but rather making me a better tank - Fiendish Vigor, for instance, is a wonderful invocation for melee 1/X Bladelocks.

I've used a PAM build, a GWM build, and a high-level PAM+GWM build for 1/x Bladelocks, and all of them have worked hilariously effectively. Due to being generally emo and edgy, all but one of my Bladelocks have been of the Fiend pact, but Dark One's Blessing is very synergetic with the "tanking" job of Bladelocks too.
In my experience, Bladelocks (the 1/X variant) very much have the privilege to declare themselves viable "frontline combatants", having AC 19 from Plate+Defense and a load of temporary HP that recharges every now and then (apart from "heal every time you kill an enemy", Fiendish Vigor guarantees 8 temporary HP at the start of every single encounter).

Then again, most of the reasons why I can stay in melee are "because I dipped Fighter". So it's probably true that single-class Bladelocks are not very good in melee.

Those are my thoughts.

[MrStabby]

To me bladelock is a character component that delivers a lot of versatility to multiclass builds. It is an efficient way to get two attacks whilst not sacrificing too much in casting power.

In this role it suffers a bit following the release of the melee SCAG cantrips, but if that material isn't allowed then it is still very strong.

My preference for a pact of the blade warlock is to double it up with rogue for a magical sneaky character that is still capable of dishing out the pain.

[Socratov]

To me bladelock is a character component that delivers a lot of versatility to multiclass builds. It is an efficient way to get two attacks whilst not sacrificing too much in casting power.

In this role it suffers a bit following the release of the melee SCAG cantrips, but if that material isn't allowed then it is still very strong.

My preference for a pact of the blade warlock is to double it up with rogue for a magical sneaky character that is still capable of dishing out the pain.

I'd wager that thief Rogue 2 would make for a great preliminary for a bladelock and definitely make an end to the shoehorning the warlock into a build that requires investment into considerable defences. And to me makes for a definitely better feel and fit.

[BW022]

Willie,

Good question.

A bladelock is a fairly versatile class – even without multi-classing. It isn’t as versatile as say a bard, but it has a lot of roles which it can fulfill. I’ve played two bladelocks warlocks and I’ve seen a couple more in Adventure League play.


Roles

Off-Tank. A bladelock can off-tank. This is typically holding back lesser creatures or helping block a major creature in cases when a pure melee character is down, incapacitated, or unable to block everyone. Standard builds can’t keep this up for long -- low AC, relatively low HP (MAD abilities normally limit constitution), and limited defensive abilities normally prevent being a primary tank. Multi-classing (for heavy armor), feats, focusing on defensive spells, etc. can help, but typically even then you are behind any pure fighter, paladin, barbarian, etc. Preparing for this typically means that you are less effective in other roles as a pure warlock – since you use stat increases, feats, multi-classing, etc. for defensive abilities rather than higher slots, save DCs, etc. which a pure warlock could get.

Blaster. A bladelock still has his role as a ranged damager dealer. In any build I’ve seen, they still have eldritch blast and agonizing blade. Even if they don’t keep Charisma maximized, they still have one of the best ranged attacks and can spam hex+eldritch blast and keep up damage equal to most ranged classes.

Crowd Control. You still have spells which can help in crowd control – sleep, darkness, hold person, fear, etc. Your big limit it having limited number of slots, but carefully used these can easily turn a combat. They are more powerful if you are going to get rests.

Melee Damage. There are some cases when melee builds can (at times) do a lot more damage than pure eldritch blasting. A strength-based warlock with a polearm and polearm mastery feat can get a lot of attacks in, especially with free opportunity attacks. Magical weapons can add a fair amount of damage over eldritch blast. There are times when this damage can be used with impunity – say spider climbing, levitating, or flying with a reach weapon vs. a non-reach creature with no (or limited) ranged options.

Utility. All warlocks have reasonable utility abilities. Most warlocks only cast a few combat spells (due to limited slots and typically at their highest level), but they know a lot more. Thus, it typically doesn’t cost them much to take a number of non-combat spells (comprehend languages, clairvoyance, scrying, contact other plane, etc.) and cast these outside of combat – knowing they get the slots back after a short rest. Even some combat spells have non-combat uses (spider climb, darkness, fly, misty step, etc.) for movement, bypassing obstacles, scouting, etc. There are also a number of evocations which as massively useful in a utility role. The bladelock isn’t nearly as good as a book (rituals) or even a chain warlock (familiar for scouting), but certainly better than any non spellcasting class, half-casting, and even some sorcerers.


Versatility

Versatility seems to be the main advantage of warlocks (in general). The bladelock (vs. other locks) trades some of the focus on damage, crowd control, and utility abilities for the ability to stay in melee. This has a number of advantages, even if you aren’t trying to tank. For example, you might normally stay back and eldritch blast and use crowd control spells. However, you might get stealth and use one with shadows and devil’s sight to be a reasonable scout – without total fear that if caught you can’t fight long enough for the rest of the party to reach you. Likewise, you might say back blasting, but if you see an enemy caster at the rear, you might misty step or fly next to them and force them into melee. Key to most bladelocks builds is that they aren't in moral fear of being forced into melee, silenced, fighting in small rooms, etc.

I'll also point out that bladelocks often suffer the casting curse in that getting your hands free to cast spells can be an issue. Switching between roles (especially with a shield), drawing/stowing weapons, can be an issue. Some weapons (i.e. staff) can be used as an arcane focus (so you can cast warlock spells with S+M spells while holding them). This does add a lot of thought/bookkeeping to remembering your focuses and hand management, or else taking the warcaster feat tax. Often you cast and then enter melee -- with melee then being a commitment for the rest of the fight.


Best Builds

My personal opinions based on what I've seen. I’ve seen two main builds – heavy armor and stealth.

My recommendation on heavy armor is actually a war or tempest cleric over the fighter. Yes, you need a 13 wisdom, but the extra spell slots really make a difference (even 1st-level slots are useful for hex and other spells), the domain abilities can be useful, and the spell selection is massively useful (healing, buffing, etc.) many of which can be cast using higher level slots. The other option is actually a nature cleric, skip strength, max wisdom, and use shillelagh. Avoids some of the MAD. However, fighter is an Ok choice also. I don’t recommend in the multi-class going beyond 1st-level. I’ve also seen a mountain dwarf warlock with only a 14 charisma, taking heavy armor at 4th. This is ok as it gives a quick 18 strength. Human variant taking medium armor at 1st, heavy armor by 4th, and still getting a 18 strength and 16 charisma.

For stealth, I’ve seen bard, rogue, and trickery cleric. All tend to be dexterity-based. Bard is the best for utility (you can spell slots, it is charisma focused, and you get bard song and good skills). Rogue gives skills, sneak attack, expertise, thieves tools, etc. Trickery cleric is an ok option (medium armor + shield + 3 dex with the medium armor mastery feat at 5th) plus good spell slots/selection, but MAD (say 10,16,12, 8,14, 16). Combined with devil’s sight, one with darkness, etc. these are reasonably good scouting build. These builds often look like a 2nd-level dip is good (bard expertise, rogue bonus actions, cleric turning) but I’d recommend only one level dips. A non-multi-class is also possible – criminal background and just make the most of your devil’s sight, one with shadows, and spells.


Fun Factor

As in any class... play what you want. Non-blade warlocks often get extremely boring in terms of combat options -- you eldritch blast and try keeping your distance. It is effective, but the idea of D&D is to have fun. Some folks may find a non-blade warlock repetitive. I will say playing the bladelock gives a lot more versatility but it comes with a cost. With my cleric/1 bladelock/x in plate, shield, and a magical weapon... I do things most warlocks wouldn't -- fly in the rear, fight next to a tank, polymorph into an animal to scout, etc.

However, I do warn folks... without serious attention (which always comes at the cost of effectiveness in non-melee roles) a bladelock can't survive in melee more against most foes. Many folks imagine a jedi-like character slashing down foes, when most pure bladelocks can't last 2 rounds against a typical CR foe. You really do need some multi-classing, feats, races, etc. to gain sufficient defensive abilities (i.e. armor) and using heavy defensive spells in order to last long enough for even off-tanking purposes.

[NecroDancer]

I think bladelocks are the weakest warlocks. However they seems like the funniest warlock giving you more combat options and letting you be a caster/fighter/party face all at once. Also if your DM is a d*ck and likes prison-scenarios then the bladelock is your friend (the monk also shines as well). Also if your party tries to pidgeon-hole you into being a melee character the bladelock makes it fun.

[Tanarii]

A bladelock is someone who has chosen the ability to summon any melee weapon to hand, or bind and summon any magical melee weapon. And while it's summoned, to be proficient in it's use and for it to count as a magic weapon (if it wasn't already).

They also open up the ability to take two invocations: one to get an extra attack with a summoned weapon, and one to do extra damage equal to your Cha bonus with the summoned weapon.

What you make of those abilities is up to you as a player.

Edit: In other words, if you want to be able to stand in melee as a tank, you're going to need to pick up something that lets you do that. Because 'bladelock' doesn't. If you want to run in and out of melee, you're going to need to pick up something that lets you do that. Because 'bladelock' doesn't. What 'bladelock' explicitly does is give you proficiency, give you the ability to summon a weapon from nowhere, make it magical, and open up options for more attacks and more damage with the weapon.

[Spiritchaser]

I would say that to me; (edit, yup just talking about my idea here) bladelock is a level 1 fighter that makes a deal with (most likely) a fiend in the interest of gaining strength and power... For good or evil.

I would say that my idea of a bladelock often forgoes hex in favor of darkness and devil's sight.

And he wields a glaive. With luck he can find a magical one

He probably started Vhuman and took both GWM and PAM, which meant his charisma probably only topped out at 18... And he doesn't have many hp... But he has some magic to keep him up...

Now possibly he's a bit careful and takes resilient wisdom (he started fighter) or maybe (and no I don't know how this works), he gives up more and starts off as Yuan ti...

And he is a blender. If he could live long enough to hit 18 he'd probably be an insane blender...

[Specter]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Paladin 2 for a dip. Yes, the first level is garbage, but simply getting heavy armor, defense and the smiting ability really puts a Bladelock in a different spot against blastlocks.

[Naanomi]

I'd agree with most of what is above, that the 'bladelock' concept is really best realized with multi-classing. For a single class warlock it is a cool looking toy, but rarely useful in practice compared to just using eldritch blast. Multiclassing (usually with Paladin I'd guess) for armor and more to do in melee is important; though it can serve a purpose in other builds as well (I can see it having a place in a warlock/monk/rogue 'ninja build')

[Tanarii]

For a single class warlock it is a cool looking toy, but rarely useful in practice compared to just using eldritch blast.That sorta-kinda holds true right up until you get a Scimitar of Speed and take your level 12 feature. 1d6+10 *3 @ +2 to hit (relative to EB) does wonders for bladelock damage. Similarly, other magic weapons can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of bladelock damage compared to eldritch blast. The ability to bind and use any magic weapon is a commonly overlooked aspect of what Pact of the Blade Boon gives a Bladelock.

[Naanomi]

That sorta-kinda holds true right up until you get a Scimitar of Speed and take your level 12 feature. 1d6+10 *3 @ +2 to hit (relative to EB) does wonders for bladelock damage. Similarly, other magic weapons can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of bladelock damage compared to eldritch blast. The ability to bind and use any magic weapon is a commonly overlooked aspect of what Pact of the Blade Boon gives a Bladelock.
Fair enough, though no campaign I have played in yet would let me suspect I would get a specific magic item in that way. I would expect to find a Warlock's Scepter at least as often as I would the Scimitar there, to similar effect. I still maintain a Paladin/Warlock makes a better 'bladelock' mechanically than without the multiclassing

[MrStabby]

That sorta-kinda holds true right up until you get a Scimitar of Speed and take your level 12 feature. 1d6+10 *3 @ +2 to hit (relative to EB) does wonders for bladelock damage. Similarly, other magic weapons can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of bladelock damage compared to eldritch blast. The ability to bind and use any magic weapon is a commonly overlooked aspect of what Pact of the Blade Boon gives a Bladelock.

Is scimitar of speed more or less common than rod of the pact keeper?

[Tanarii]

Fair enough, though no campaign I have played in yet would let me suspect I would get a specific magic item in that way.It's intended to be just one example of many magical weapons in the game. Albeit a very powerful one in this particular case, since it allows a whole 3rd attack to which both the Cha bonus damage, and Hex if you have it up, would apply.


I would expect to find a Warlock's Scepter at least as often as I would the Scimitar there, to similar effect.Maybe. But as you say, the odds of finding one specific magic item is particularly low, especially if you have a DM that rolls treasure Hoards. (edit: completed sentence lol)


I still maintain a Paladin/Warlock makes a better 'bladelock' mechanically than without the multiclassingMaybe. It depends on if you want a full caster with melee damage capabilities, or something that's a bit more than a 1/2 caster with some tank capabilities.

It also assumes multiclassing is available.

[Naanomi]

It's intended to be just one example of many magical weapons in the game. Albeit a very powerful one in this particular case, since it allows a whole 3rd attack to which both the Cha bonus damage, and Hex if you have it up, would apply.
For what it matters, both Hex and the third (and fourth ultimately) attack are things Eldritch Blast are already getting... only the bonuses from the magic item (or the abilities of other classes) are going to make the melee attack potentially exceed that option


Maybe. It depends on if you want a full caster with melee damage capabilities, or something that's a bit more than a 1/2 caster with some tank capabilities.
I would focus on the Warlock, to be sure... a level 20 build like Paladin (Oathbreaker) 8/Warlock 12 or something. Though I tend to use the SCAG cantrips more than I utilize extra attacks for that sort of build.


It also assumes multiclassing is available.
I would *definitely* assume multiclassing is available more often than I would expect to find a specific magic item. I've never played in a game that hasn't allowed it, most games I play approximate AL rules (without the one book restriction).

[Willie the Duck]

Does anyone have any builds (pure, mc w/ rogue, cleric, fighter, paladin, etc.) that they'd use or have used?

[NecroDancer]

Does anyone have any builds (pure, mc w/ rogue, cleric, fighter, paladin, etc.) that they'd use or have used?

Fighter 1 or 2 warlock X
Swashbuckler 3 warlock X
Paladin 2 warlock X

[Naanomi]

If you are going to higher levels, and are really dedicated to bladelocking, I would seriously consider stopping at Warlock 12 and pursue other classes. You have your full cap of short-rest spell slots and can milk those last few levels for a lot (Oathbreaker 6 for Charisma to damage again?)

[Kane0]

A bit of everything. A bladelock retains all the default casting and blasting goodness of all warlocks but does not get the extra casting power of the Tomelock or the Utility of the Chainlock. They tend to ration some invocations and spells away for self buffs in order to engage in melee combat better, making them good second liners able to step into the melee damage role if need be, even if they aren't as efficient or durable as dedicated warriors.

So in practice a bladelock functions similarly to say a ranger. Most possess solid ranged and melee options while boasting some casting power. They don't excel in any one of the three compared to other classes but they are able to swap between them as needed, to a limited extent.

[Gastronomie]

Does anyone have any builds (pure, mc w/ rogue, cleric, fighter, paladin, etc.) that they'd use or have used?When I get free time on my hands I'll show you my current build.

IMO Fighter 1 > Paladin 2 > Fighter 2 due to minimal delay in Pact Magic / Caster level progression.

[Vogonjeltz]

Okay, nearly every conversation I see that mentions the bladelock can be reduced down to roughly, "too many people think the bladelock is ____" (usually "front-line combatant). What I want to know is, what is a bladelock then? What builds (including attributes, weapons of choices, other-class dips, ASIs/feats, races, spells,) do you choose, and how do you play them?

Actual play experience is appreciated, but any insight into this (sub-)class is appreciated. It's a little frustrating to see mostly how not do do something without the inferred how to advice. Thanks in advance!

For my own part, when I say that I'm using it as a caution not to try and fill a particular role that the Warlock (Pact of the Blade or otherwise) is unsuitable for.

A Warlock doesn't have the durability to be an always in melee combatant. Their hit die is on the lower half of the spectrum, they have the weakest armor, and they lack both melee oriented saving throws (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution) and skill proficiencies (Athletics/Acrobatics). Furthermore, they have no particular focus on strength for any of their abilities, leaving it as an almost certainly tertiary statistic.

The Pact of the Blade Warlock is, at best, support melee, providing debuffs through their spellcasting and backing up a primary melee combatant (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Cleric even). If enemies turn on them, their best choice is to withdraw behind a more durable friendly.


Most simply put, the bladelock is a melee warlock. Whether or not it is the best at the role is immaterial.

I play mine as the only Frontline in my game.

What kind of encounters is your party having (and how are they dealing with them) that a single warlock can be the entire party frontline and survive even briefly? (discounting blind luck and DM metagaming to avoid killing a character of course)

[MrStabby]

Does anyone have any builds (pure, mc w/ rogue, cleric, fighter, paladin, etc.) that they'd use or have used?

Warlock Eldritch knight is pretty sweet. You get a much bigger choice of spells and a nice solid body. I prefer Warlock 3 EK X, but it can work the other way as well.

Rogue 3 (assassin) warlock X is great. Sure you don't get sneak attack on your eldritch blasts but you can still get advantage on attacks. Revised ranger offers the same and might be good if you roll well or otherwise want a high Wisdom. To be fair, it isn't such a challenge if you are not needing a sky high melee stat, but I think rogue offers more.

Variant human running PAM/Sentinel is perfectly fine without a fighter dip. In fact this is another great way to dip rogue - cunning action for disengage, expertise for athletics (need to check with DM that they are happy with shove+strike to qualify for second attack).



I was once at a table with a character that worked surprisingly well - the cleric warlock. Nature cleric/feypact bladelock. We were playing at levels about 8 to 14. Warlock got 2 attacks, nature cleric got shillelagh and heavy armour. The melee presence was only a little behind a dedicated frontliner. At level 10 he was able to drop spirit guardians almost every fight and with careful positioning the speed slowing area kept a lot of melee enemies out of combat.

[Gastronomie]

Okay, a build I'm currently using:

Level: 9 (Fighter 1 / Fiend, Blade Warlock 8)
Race: Variant Human
Stats: 18-10-14-8-8-16
Feats: Polearm Master, War Caster
HP: 68
Temporary HP: +8 in-between every battle, +11 every time you kill
AC: 19 (Plate + Defense)
Saving Throw Proficiency: STR, CON (Fighter)
Concentration Ratio (Assuming DC 10): 97.75% (+6 and War Caster)
Eldritch Invocations: Devil's Sight, Fiendish Vigor, Sculptor of Flesh

Cantrips: Eldritch Blast, Friends, Prestidigitation
Level 1 Spells: Charm Person (4 targets), Hex (8 hours), Command (4 targets)
Level 2 Spells: Darkness, Hold Person (3 targets), Invisibility (3 targets)
Level 3 Spells: Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball (+1d6), Fly (2 targets)
Level 4 Spells: Polymorph (1/day)

Note that this is not a combat-optimized build, and for two reasons:
This is a city campaign, and an evil one too. Charm Person is used for decieving enemies who will be annoying if they realize you're evil at the very moment you're talking to them, but can do nothing once 1 hour has passed and you have already done everything you wanted to do in the area. Invisibility is used often for infiltration. Fly and Hypnotic Pattern are handy both in and out of combat.
Wall of Fire is not taken for the reason that creating a burning wall in the middle of a town is not a very smart move (unless you want to burn everything down - in which case Fireball already does the job better). If you wish to optimize combat-wise, remove Charm Person and Invisibility, and instead take Armor of Agathys and Wall of Fire. Oh, and - Counterspell and/or Dispel Magic. Our party already has a Paladin with Dispel Magic and a Wizard with Counterspell, so we players decided together that I don't necessarily need to take them.
The character has been given a special bonus that grants him 1 extra level 1 spell slot that regains on a short rest. Hex is normally cast using this slot, and if this character did not have that slot, I would probably change it to something else. Sure, on paper it's +7 (2d6) extra damage this round and +10.5 (3d6) extra damage from next around, but the first round you lose 6.5 (1d4+4) damage as well, meaning it's not much of a difference (only more swingy), and it's not like every single attack hits - if you hit only once it's only +1d6 damage next round, for instance. And it even requires concentration. Ew.
Overall Hex is not an optimal choice for higher-level Bladelocks, unless your character has a special bonus such as mine.

Now, if you reverse the way of looking at the fact that this build is not combat-optimized, you can actually say that it's possible to create a Bladelock who, while still being good at melee (good AC and attacks) and still having decent combat control (Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Polymorph), is at the same time also good at RP situations.

This build has served me and my party very well. It's a blast to play (no pun intended), and I recommend you play a Bladelock too, to see for yourself how entertaining and effective it is.

Hope this helps.

[TimBobDAnimal]

Look, the Warlock is a blaster class at the end of the day. You will be forced to focus on DPR in order to feel effective. Sure, tomelocks and chainlocks have better utility, but a bladelock isn't inconvenienced when creatures get right on top of them. They can just start smashing or stabbing things instead of blasting. That is what the bladelock is; a blaster that does't lose efficiency in melee combat.

[Tanarii]

I would *definitely* assume multiclassing is available more often than I would expect to find a specific magic item. I've never played in a game that hasn't allowed it, most games I play approximate AL rules (without the one book restriction).
Okay. But as soon as you multi class into any class that gives martial weapon prof on MC, you give up 1/3 to 1/2 have of the entire point of selecting Pact of the Blade Boon: proficiency in a Martial Weapon. If you take enough levels to get Extra Attack, that's just amplified.

In that case, complaining it seems pointless is entirely correct. You've intentionally selected overlapping abilities. It's likes complaining that the HA/Weap proficiencies are pointless if you've MCd Cleric from Fighter or Paladin. Or complaining that Valor Bard doesn't get as much when you MC from those classes. Of course it doesn't. You've chosen to use an optional rule that does the exact same thing as the entire point of Pact of the Blade, exchanging some focus for versatility, and in the process selected overlapping options.

Edit: damn iPad autocorrect had my warlocks fighting with marital weapons :smallbiggrin:

[Addaran]

The one thing i just realized that the warlock excel at....fighting in silence! It's the only "full" caster that is still very effective in silence or when he can't cast spells.


Look, the Warlock is a blaster class at the end of the day. You will be forced to focus on DPR in order to feel effective. Sure, tomelocks and chainlocks have better utility, but a bladelock isn't inconvenienced when creatures get right on top of them. They can just start smashing or stabbing things instead of blasting. That is what the bladelock is; a blaster that does't lose efficiency in melee combat.

That would make sense....if feats aren't allowed. With feats, you can just take Crossbow expert and be fine in melee. (specialy with repelling blast, so you can flee afterward.) Then you're looking at 1 feat vs probably 2 invocations and another stat(str or dex) that need to be pretty high.

Even without feats, Tome warlock can just pick shillelagh and one of the SCAG weapon cantrips. He's only losing 2 cantrips (wich he get 3 extra) to be almost as effective as the bladelock in the rare situation where it get stuck in melee. And he still have access to all the ritual in the game, potentially.

[Gastronomie]

Okay. But as soon as you multi class into any class that gives martial weapon prof on MC, you give up 1/3 to 1/2 have of the entire point of selecting Pact of the Blade Boon: proficiency in a Martial Weapon. If you take enough levels to get Extra Attack, that's just amplified.OBJECTION!!

The only ways you can get Extra Attack while also having the spell slot equivalents of a full caster (if you consider Warlocks full casters, that is) are Valor Bard, Bladelock, and Favored Soul. That alone is pretty damn important.

[Tanarii]

OBJECTION!!

The only ways you can get Extra Attack while also having the spell slot equivalents of a full caster (if you consider Warlocks full casters, that is) are Valor Bard, Bladelock, and Favored Soul. That alone is pretty damn important.
Okay, really good objection. :smallbiggrin: And yes, warlocks are full casters. But that precludes multiclassing.

[Willie the Duck]

Well thanks everyone. It sounds like the bladelock (and with that I include MC/bladelock) requires a lot of fine tuning and in-game management (not unlike a rogue or monk, who also try to do combat stuff, but can't really toe-to-toe it at the front line). It certainly sounds like a lot of investment tends to go on, with dubious payoff. Still, I would appreciate more builds if people have them. I'm interested in whether people have had success with the cleric-warlock (wow that seems MAD, but wow would it be useful), or darkness-abusing rogue-warlock, or whatever else.

My Dex-paladin just died in the middle of the Giants module, and my party of evoker, battlemaster, and shadowmonk need a new support character that can survive melee. It does not sound like the bladelock will fill that easily, but I still might try it. I certainly want to know the ins and outs for some point in the future.

[Gastronomie]

Okay, really good objection. :smallbiggrin: And yes, warlocks are full casters. But that precludes multiclassing.Well, I won't argue that 1/X Bladelocks are better than pure Bladelocks. But Bladelocks are one of the very rare build cases in which one can be a good caster and warrior both at the same time (assuming 1/X). They're overall a fun class to play.


It certainly sounds like a lot of investment tends to go on, with dubious payoff.Well, using one, I disagree; the payoff is much more than the investment. At least, if you want to create a character who can both cast and fight nicely at the same time, Bladelocks and Sorcadins are by far the best way to accomplish that task. (And Bards, too.)

Of course, if all you want to play is a caster OR a warrior, you've got no use for Bladelocks. But if you wish to play a Gish, they're really good at filling that niche.

EDIT: Then again, reading your post...

My Dex-paladin just died in the middle of the Giants module, and my party of evoker, battlemaster, and shadowmonk need a new support character that can survive melee. It does not sound like the bladelock will fill that easily, but I still might try it. I certainly want to know the ins and outs for some point in the future.Ehhhhh........

...Sorcadin it is.

Bladelocks (or rather, Warlocks in general) are more about "smashing gigantic, powerful spells into the enemy line" and not so much about "supporting friends". If you want a supporter, going Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X will be your best bet.

Use stuff like Careful Web. Or, if your campaign is more high-level, Twinned Greater Invisibility or Twinned Haste. Your party will fall in love with you.

[Willie the Duck]

Yes, but that was what I was playing (er, was getting to, we were only 5th level). I don't want to come back with a "Bob #2" character.

Palibard might work...

[gfishfunk]

Wolf Totem Barbarian doesn't sound too bad with that group...

[Naanomi]

OBJECTION!!

The only ways you can get Extra Attack while also having the spell slot equivalents of a full caster (if you consider Warlocks full casters, that is) are Valor Bard, Bladelock, and Favored Soul. That alone is pretty damn important.
And Bladesinger, though I'd argue the SCAG memes cantrips have made the second attack far less attractive by comparison (though not totally useless)

[JAL_1138]

Yes, but that was what I was playing (er, was getting to, we were only 5th level). I don't want to come back with a "Bob #2" character.

Palibard might work...

Paladin 2/ Valor X with Defensive fighting style and Polearm Master is my favorite MC--although it needs to be said it's just a way to get better armor and nova potential onto a Valor Bard (that will play like a Paladin for early levels, then eventually like a Valor Bard with some good damage up their proverbial sleeve the rest of the time), and isn't really its own thing, unlike Sorcadin, which is pretty much Das Übergish as a self-buffing (and party-buffing) tank and damage-dealer.

Sorcadin has it beat in several respects if SCAG is allowed--better damage through Quickened Greenflame Blade, which can also be Smited with since there's a melee attack as part of the cantrip (although Sorcadins get no Extra Attack without UA material, and can run out of Sorcery Points quickly if not careful), better ranged options through Sorcerer cantrips, and some tanky spells like Shield and Mirror Image the Bard list doesn't have. The bard is a better healer in some respects (although Twinned Cure Wounds is definitely nothing to sneeze at, it requires both people being healed to be within 5ft, or one of the people being healed to be the Sorcadin, otherwise there's no point. The Sorcadin doesn't get the restoration or resurrection spells the bardlock eventually will, though, and the Palabard can pick up the best heal in the game, Aura of Vitality, at level 12). Dragon Sorcadin has the same HP as the Palabard thanks to one of its class features, so it makes a far better tank with Shield and Mirror Image. The palabard has some good debuff options (especially Silence for dealing with enemy casters, which isn't on the Sorc list--although Sorcs do get Counterspell, which the VB won't get until overall level 12 as a Secret, if even then), is better at skills than the Sorcadin through Expertise and Jack of All Trades, and Combat Inspiration's not as good as Cutting Words but always helps. The Palabard can be a great grappler with Expertise in Athletics, too, although that gets in the way of using PAM and requires a backup weapon (javelins work, and you'd carry them anyway for ranged attacks).

[Willie the Duck]

SCAG is not available.

[JAL_1138]

SCAG is not available.

Sorcadin really loses out in melee without SCAG. It's still a better tank than the Palabard, since it gets Shield and Mirror Image, but it will never get Extra Attack (with no SCAG, I expect no UA allowed either?) [EDIT: unless it goes to Paladin 5+ before going Sorc] and its main damage trick doesn't work half as well without Greenflame Blade.

Paladin 2 / Valor X with Polearm Master (and Sentinel, if you can stand two feats, although the ASI delay on taking a second feat would be hard for this build to stand) is a heck of a support gish that can frontline-melee quite well (not as well as a pure Pally for at-will, since it never gets Improved Divine Smite, but has more slots to nova with and gets high level slots sooner), as well as buff, debuff, AoE disable, heal, and to a lesser degree do some AoE damage in a pinch, pick up some utility spells, and grapple very well if needed. It's not a great skillmonkey, especially compared to a Lore, but it can do really well at Str or Cha based skills. I'm playing one in League now, and it's great to be able to act as a force multiplier for so many different roles.

For less damage but better support if (and only if) you have another melee monster around (but not if most of the party makes ranged attack rolls), take Shield Master and Dueling style instead of PAM and defense. With Expertise in Athletics you'll knock down nearly anything Large and down. Downside is it really, really needs Warcaster too, unless you stow your weapon whenever you cast, and as mentioned the ASI cost for Warcaster is painful. EDIT: Since you have both a Battlemaster and a Monk, it's really not necessary since they can both cover knocking enemies prone really effectively on their own, so I'd say to go with PAM.

[NecroDancer]

My backup character for CoS is a half-Orc fighter 1/fey blade-lock X (or a moon Druid I'm still deciding).

[gfishfunk]

My backup character for CoS is a half-Orc fighter 1/fey blade-lock X.

This would be a great build, and really close to what the OP was originally discussing. Its a great frontliner.

[Citan]

Okay, nearly every conversation I see that mentions the bladelock can be reduced down to roughly, "too many people think the bladelock is ____" (usually "front-line combatant). What I want to know is, what is a bladelock then? What builds (including attributes, weapons of choices, other-class dips, ASIs/feats, races, spells,) do you choose, and how do you play them?

Actual play experience is appreciated, but any insight into this (sub-)class is appreciated. It's a little frustrating to see mostly how not do do something without the inferred how to advice. Thanks in advance!
A Bladelock is "nothing" because the concept does not exist in my view.
Contrarily to other classes where the archetypes are clearly defined and bring all defining features, a Warlock is constructed by the crossing of three different things: Pact, Patron, and Invocations. With the two first slightly influencing the last.

As for how to build, I'd say both STR and DEX ways are valid. Whatever you build, you will be like a Rogue of old editions: quick on your feet, going in and away to always keep enemies in check.
As a STR, you rely on cantrips to avoid close range until you get decent AC (Moderately Armored, then you go one-handed weapon and shield for a while, or good DEX with Mage Armor). You can rely on Darkness for fights where defense is priority, while using Hex otherwise.

At higher level, you can either grab Heavily Armored if you feel you are lacking in defense, or grab GWM and change your weapon, or Mobility, or just boost stats. You get Fire Shield or Greater Invisibility to help with defense when needed.

For a DEX build, just use Mage Armor, bump DEX and use Mirror Image until you get better defense. Mobile feat or Defensive Duelist would be nice feats here.

As for those who wonder why it was built as is, remember that there are also games where multiclassing nor feats are allowed.
In such games, Pact of the Blade is the only way for a Warlock to get a good (magic) melee option. In many situations, that is a great benefit. :)

[Willie the Duck]

I'm still not sure what I'm going to do, palibard sounds like fun. The half-orc (or maybe something else) fighter1/bladelock isn't a bad choice, although I'm not sure I have the 5e chops yet to not end up getting a frail front-liner killed. Regardless, given the title of the thread, I thought I'd play around more with the Warlock support character. Here is a Cleric-warlock I rolled up. We're in FR, so I couldn't figure out a way to have a life cleric and any patron except Fae, so that's what I'm thinking. Any thoughts on this?

Half-elf Cleric (Life) 1 / Warlock (Blade, Fey) 4
Str 16 (15+1)
Dex 13
Con 16 (15+1)
Int 9
Wis 13
Cha 16 (14+2)
ASI/Feats: Pole-Arm Master
Skills: Athletics, Deception, Insight, Perception, Persuasion, Survival
Cantrips (cleric): Guidance, Light, Mending
Cantrips (warlock): Eldritch Blast, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion,
Invocations: Agonizing Blast, Devil’s Sight
Spells normally memorized (cleric): Bless, Cure Wounds, Healing word, Shield of Faith
Spells (warlock): Armor of Agathys, Calm Emotions, Command, Darkness, Faerie Fire, Hex, Mirror Image, Phantasmal Force, Sleep

[Willie the Duck]

Well that killed that.

What about a stealth warlock build? Or more advice on the palibard?

[gfishfunk]

I played my Barbarian 1 / Warlock 4 (infernal / Blade) + Polearm Master as a tank last night. It mostly worked, and I did not get reduced to 0 hp. When I say tank, I literally mean that every other member of the team was a ranged character -- my group prefers ranged. And furthermore, most (although not all) of the enemies were melee.

My DM tends to do 1-4 encounters in an adventuring day, which is not Warlock-ideal.

First battle, I burned a rage and AoA; I should have turned on the rage just a little earlier to get the Temp Hp protected by the Rage, but alas. I hit AoA before the battle and then rolled a low initiative.

Anyhow, I burned two rages over two encounters, raised about 25-30 in temp HP through AoA and killing things (+2 Cha, +4 level = 6 per killshot), and I burned two spell slots (AoA, Hex). I have 1 spell slot left (short rest after using 1 spell), and we are about to fight the big bad boss.

My DM was not very happy with this - in fact, I 'caught' him adding in additional attacks so that I was not burning through his low level chum too easily (a total of 16 enemies over two encounters).

If you switch around your Con stat a little, you can drop it down to 14 (14 pre-racial) and give your Dex a bump to 14. Then, you can manage with Medium Armor instead of needing plate, which can open up other possibilities for you, like going storm or light cleric or something like that.

From my experiences, if you want to play it as the only frontliner, its hard but doable - Mirror Image, Temp Hp from Fiend, Armor of Agaythis are super necessary. Polearm Master is great for extra reaction attacks as things enter melee range, but you could just as easily do shield master (if proficient), protection fighter, or something like that with your bonus action.

In short: Rage + Fiend Pact hp / AoA is fantastic if you want a frontliner, but this is not a pure bladelock.

[Willie the Duck]

My DM tends to do 1-4 encounters in an adventuring day, which is not Warlock-ideal.

Too few, and thus too few short rest recharges?


First battle, I burned a rage and AoA; I should have turned on the rage just a little earlier to get the Temp Hp protected by the Rage, but alas. I hit AoA before the battle and then rolled a low initiative.

Anyhow, I burned two rages over two encounters, raised about 25-30 in temp HP through AoA and killing things (+2 Cha, +4 level = 6 per killshot), and I burned two spell slots (AoA, Hex). I have 1 spell slot left (short rest after using 1 spell), and we are about to fight the big bad boss.

My DM was not very happy with this - in fact, I 'caught' him adding in additional attacks so that I was not burning through his low level chum too easily (a total of 16 enemies over two encounters).

so a mix of barbarian temp hp from a long rest recharge ability and a short rest recharge warlock spell let you become the damage sponge while handing out raging 2hf attack damage less than, but on par with, a full class martial. That about sum it up?


If you switch around your Con stat a little, you can drop it down to 14 (14 pre-racial) and give your Dex a bump to 14. Then, you can manage with Medium Armor instead of needing plate, which can open up other possibilities for you, like going storm or light cleric or something like that.

That, plus perhaps stealth (although reasonably that reduces AC to 16, which is ick for frontline, just to get an occasional benefit. Medium armor in this edition once again feels like a nice idea that you would only occasionally use). I will think on it. The healing cleric gives the build something it otherwise wouldn't do well. Storm and light clerics make blasters, which a warlock already has. Still, I will take it under advisement. Thanks!


From my experiences, if you want to play it as the only frontliner, its hard but doable - Mirror Image, Temp Hp from Fiend, Armor of Agaythis are super necessary. Polearm Master is great for extra reaction attacks as things enter melee range, but you could just as easily do shield master (if proficient), protection fighter, or something like that with your bonus action.

In short: Rage + Fiend Pact hp / AoA is fantastic if you want a frontliner, but this is not a pure bladelock.

I am not a purist. This is a bladelock in my estimation.

[JAL_1138]

Well that killed that.

What about a stealth warlock build? Or more advice on the palibard?

Palabard's not really too tricky. If you're at level 5 and higher, play them like a Valor Bard that packs a heck of a wallop when it needs to.

You want to be up near the front, since you have Heavy Armor and take the Defensive style (if the DM follows the recent SA or errata--I forget which--that limits Great Weapon style to just the weapon dice, which League does. If your DM would let it apply to Smite dice, take Great Weapon style). But since tou have Polearm Master, you want to keep far enough away that enemies trigger op attacks when they enter your reach. To attack, move up to within 10ft, attack, then move back to 15ft away. You're sort of a secondary frontliner, maybe a midfielder instead of a forward, so to speak.

Keep Bless up constantly on yourself, the Fighter, and the Monk. It's your best buff for now, and except in a few cases the best option for your concentration until Hypnotic Pattern comes online.

Stats:
Vhuman, PAM feat, 14 10 14 10 10 16. Take Str to 16 at Bard 4. Or start half-elf for 16 10 14 10 10 16 and wait to take PAM until Bard 4. Either or. If you can stand the wait on PAM, half elf is stronger in the long run. It's hard to wait that long for the feat, granted, but since you're not coming in at first level it's worth considering.


Assuming level 5 overall, Pally 2/Valor 3

Paladin spells you'll want to keep prepared are:
Bless
Cure Wounds (saves you a spell known on the bard list)
Detect Magic (saves you a spell known on the bard list)
If you start with 16 Cha, you get 1 extra, I suggest Protection from Evil and Good

The "Something Smite" spells cost you your bonus action attack from PAM *and* do less damage, although Thunderous Smite does offer a save vs. prone. Could be one to prepare instead of PfEaG.

Bard spells:
Cantrips:
-Light, because it's your human tax (take Prestidigitation or Minor Illusion if half-elf)
-Vicious Mockery, because you only get two cantrips at this level and this is your best option of the damage cantrips on the bard list (and the only one on it in the PHB).

1st-level:
-Dissonant Whispers (decent damage and more importantly can generate opportunity attacks)
-Charm Person
-Thunderwave (decent AoE damage+knockback for a 1st-level slot)
-Faerie Fire

2nd level
-Silence (good way to deal with casters)
-Heat Metal (brutal disable against anyone in metal armor, also good for making enemies drop weapons. And it does okay damage)

That's all the spells you can get at Pally 2/Bard 3. You only know 6 bard spells at that level. Pick up Hold Person and Shatter ASAP as you learn more 2nd-level spells. When you learn Shatter, drop Thunderwave and swap it for Healing Word (great bonus-action ranged heal).

Unlike most bards you're better off taking melee attacks than Viciously Mocking enemies most of the time. Remember though that your Smites are for emergency nova damage, not the first thing you should do in a fight. For the most part, keeping Bless up is paramount. Remember to pass out Bardic Inspirations--but remember that until Bard 5 they only recharge on long rests, so hold them till boss fights.

[gfishfunk]

Too few, and thus too few short rest recharges?

Correct. Changing the number of encounters and short rests changes which classes truly shine. Too few short rests means I am withholding spells. If I were playing a wizard, I would be raining fire down on enemies like crazy because I had so many more spells available per encounter.


so a mix of barbarian temp hp from a long rest recharge ability and a short rest recharge warlock spell let you become the damage sponge while handing out raging 2hf attack damage less than, but on par with, a full class martial. That about sum it up?

Yes. Alternatively, you could use this same build, drop Polearm Master, and add either Stats or Shield Master and you would get a decent AC bump. My AC is 16, but if I were to go sword and board, it would be 18. It exchanges some damage for defense -- but if your DM is a stickler about how spells are cast, you will have to put away your weapon and then cast a spell, and then next turn pull out your weapon and attack.


That, plus perhaps stealth (although reasonably that reduces AC to 16, which is ick for frontline, just to get an occasional benefit. Medium armor in this edition once again feels like a nice idea that you would only occasionally use). I will think on it.

True, true. Medium Armor is viable, but not best for defense. It is decent for a non-maxed Dex score with an interest in stealth.

[Willie the Duck]

I've done some calculations, and if this cleric-bladelock used their 3 1st level long rest spells, along with their short rests, they'd heal avg. 55.5 hp (60.5 if I got the Wis up to 14). Hot too shabby for dipping cleric mostly for the armor. :-)

[Mandragola]

Cleric? Hmm. Not the way I'd go. There’s actually some cool stuff at cleric 1, but a fighter gets all of it and more. Clerics get interesting at higher levels, when stuff like channel divinity kicks in. Many of the benefits they do get key off wisdom, which you’d otherwise have as pretty much a dump stat.

If you’re building a character at a level above 1st, then a bladelock is not at all a bad option. It gets you past the awkward early levels.

The build I’d strongly recommend is fighter 1, warlock X, starting as a fighter. Con saves, fighting style, a few hp from second wind – all good stuff.
If you’ve got access to a feat, either from being a vuman or because you’ve got 4 warlock levels, then in that party I’d definitely go for polearm mastery – or possibly great weapon mastery.

Stats. The important thing is to maximise strength, then charisma, then constitution. You can dump dex and int entirely (unless you mind playing a stupid, clumsy character of course!). Wisdom is always useful, but not a priority.
Race should be anything that can start with 16 strength, and preferably either 16 con or cha. Vuman is probably the best option but plenty of other options are viable too.

Spells. Armour of agathys, hex, maybe some control. Grab counterspell if you’ve got warlock 5, then consider stuff like fear and fireball. In your group the evoker will blow things up for you, so you’re well-placed to hang onto your reactions for counterspell. Use your actions to chop people up.
Polearm mastery is good because you get to attack as a bonus action with your pact blade, and sometimes also as a reaction, so any bonuses that apply to it work on your bonus attack. The same does apply, to a slightly lesser extent, to taking GWM.

Alternatively, if you’re level 5 now, then you could go single-class warlock. Either mountain dwarf or vuman taking moderately-armoured at level 1 (so that you’ve got medium armour proficiency either way) and starting out with 17 strength. Then take heavily-armoured at level 4, raising your strength to 18.

The advantage of that is that you’re a level ahead as a warlock. You’ll have two attacks already, and counterspell. You’ll also have +4 strength bonus, whereas else anyone other than a vuman will have taken a feat at 4th, and still have +3. But you won’t have con save proficiency, the only martial weapon you’ll be proficient with is your pact blade, and you won’t have GWM/PAM.

Long term, the optimal choice is probably a vuman fighter 1/warlock 4. But the edgiest choice is a fiendish pact fallen aasimar paladin 1/warlock 4 – and it’s not far behind in power levels. And the single-class option also has merits.

[Willie the Duck]

That sounds like great overall advice for bladelocks, but that leaves the party without healing (not even anyone with the healer feat). 5e makes that not as insane as 3e or earlier, but it's still a glaring hole in the support system. Given that we already have a monk and figher, I would think that we could afford to lose off the fighter level in exchange for some healing support.

[Socratov]

That sounds like great overall advice for bladelocks, but that leaves the party without healing (not even anyone with the healer feat). 5e makes that not as insane as 3e or earlier, but it's still a glaring hole in the support system. Given that we already have a monk and figher, I would think that we could afford to lose off the fighter level in exchange for some healing support.

Healing is less important in this edition then in for example 3.5. You don't have to have a healer. It's great if you have someone fall unconscious and raised by Healing Word (bonus action and ranged). Between hit dice for short rest healing and long rest full healing (and 50% replenishment of your hitdice) you don't need a healbot. As long as a character has 1 hp he is still able to take actions as normal (unless you subscribe to the exhaustion rule). Otherwise the Spare the Dying cantrip or anyone with a medical kit (or indeed a couple of potions).

A strong cleric will rarely heal and instead create the circumstances for a succesful combat. Same for a wizard or indeed a warlock. One of those succesful circumstances is a quick kill: a dead enemy is an enemy that can't take actions against you or your peers.

[Mandragola]

Oh right, got you. I missed that healing was required.

In that case my advice is this: play a valour bard. That's a gishy character that can heal, scout, buff the existing front rank, join in sometimes, or throw highly effective mind-affecting spells. Taking either sharpshooter or crossbow expert at 1st would help, but resilient: con and war caster are also very strong options.

If I was making a valour bard myself I'd go for sharpshooter. Then at level 10 I'd learn the ranger spell swift quiver, and I'd shoot things dead a lot. Prior to that I'd spam hypnotic pattern and things like that.

You won't do as much damage as a warlock, not by far, but you'll get uninterrupted spell progression and you'll be a great addition to the party. Social skills and battlefield control both seem to be a bit lacking. It's also nice that nobody else in the party wants medium armour or ranged weapons much, so they ought to be yours if they appear. Final bonus is that you don't even have to sell your soul to the devil.

Lore bards are generally seen as the better option, and for pretty good reason, but they are squishy. Lore bards aren't. And you've got an evoker filling that role already.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm still not clear on what the fighter1 brings that is so key. Con save (about equal to Wis, but I'm more likely to pick up resilient (con) as a clericlock than resilient (wis) as a fighterlock), second wind (1 cure/ SR, self only), and weapon proficiencies I won't much use.

EDIT: Valor bards are nice (and I believe underappreciated). Also, however, a tricky one where perhaps more cagy player than I would be better at keeping alive.

[DracoKnight]

I'm still not clear on what the fighter1 brings that is so key. Con save (about equal to Wis, but I'm more likely to pick up resilient (con) as a clericlock than resilient (wis) as a fighterlock), second wind (1 cure/ SR, self only), and weapon proficiencies I won't much use.

EDIT: Valor bards are nice (and I believe underappreciated). Also, however, a tricky one where perhaps more cagy player than I would be better at keeping alive.

Starting as a Fighter, you won't have to spend a feat to get proficiency in CON saves, and you'll get heavy armor, and second wind, as well as a fighting style (Defense is probably best for a bladelock, unless you're using a greatsword/maul). You'll also have higher starting hit points.

[Willie the Duck]

Right, you still have 1 of the 3 important saves, just as everyone else does, have a 1/SR self-heal instead of 3/LR 1st level spells which can be anyone heals, and +1 AC. Sounds kinda like they are close to even, depending on what role you want to fill.

[Socratov]

Oh right, got you. I missed that healing was required.

In that case my advice is this: play a valour bard. That's a gishy character that can heal, scout, buff the existing front rank, join in sometimes, or throw highly effective mind-affecting spells. Taking either sharpshooter or crossbow expert at 1st would help, but resilient: con and war caster are also very strong options.

If I was making a valour bard myself I'd go for sharpshooter. Then at level 10 I'd learn the ranger spell swift quiver, and I'd shoot things dead a lot. Prior to that I'd spam hypnotic pattern and things like that.

You won't do as much damage as a warlock, not by far, but you'll get uninterrupted spell progression and you'll be a great addition to the party. Social skills and battlefield control both seem to be a bit lacking. It's also nice that nobody else in the party wants medium armour or ranged weapons much, so they ought to be yours if they appear. Final bonus is that you don't even have to sell your soul to the devil.

Lore bards are generally seen as the better option, and for pretty good reason, but they are squishy. Lore bards aren't. And you've got an evoker filling that role already.I don't know but if you can make the sharpshooter attacks stick (i.e. tank the -5 for that +10 delicious gain) then 3 attacks (past lvl 10 2 attacks+swift quiver) makes for 3*(1d8+dex+10). Let's assume that you up dex to at least 18 at that point that makes: 3*18.5=55.5 dmg on average on a turn. No slouch for a feat, a spell and an otherwise full caster.


I'm still not clear on what the fighter1 brings that is so key. Con save (about equal to Wis, but I'm more likely to pick up resilient (con) as a clericlock than resilient (wis) as a fighterlock), second wind (1 cure/ SR, self only), and weapon proficiencies I won't much use.

EDIT: Valor bards are nice (and I believe underappreciated). Also, however, a tricky one where perhaps more cagy player than I would be better at keeping alive.
with medium armour and a bit of gold you could take a halfplate and get 17 AC. Good enough for the occasional assailant. maybe get a shield spell in there to up that to the occasional 22 and you'll be taken care of. If you have the room to take medium Armour Master you could up that to 18, though to be fair, at that level a +1 or +2 half plate will be a great help.

Added to that the magical support and the valor bard's unique uses for bardic inspiration and you'll be a great help to your mates.

[RumoCrytuf]

Like everyone else has been saying, a bladelock is basically a melee warlock. I run one, it's super fun to play. As far as optimization, it really depends on the campaign being run. Outside of combat, being a CHA based character, Bladelocks become the charming and/or intimidating characters (more so than brutish barbarians :P). Hells, I've got a Bladelock that runs a bit like Negan from TWD. Charismatic & charming, but also the guy you love to hate. Shame I don't have a barbed baseball bat XD. Guess a mace will have to do.

[JAL_1138]

EDIT: Valor bards are nice (and I believe underappreciated). Also, however, a tricky one where perhaps more cagy player than I would be better at keeping alive.

Con 14, Dex focus, Crossbow Expert, and try to keep a little ways back from the front, and they're no harder to keep alive than most Clerics. You can self-heal as a bonus action with the Healing Word spell if you really need to, your HP would be solid, your AC pretty decent, and with Crossbow Expert you can either pack a decent punch at really long range or a good punch at 30ft. Then you start doing excellent damage at 10th with Swift Quiver. They're not tanks, sure, but they're not squishy for a caster as long as you have good Con.

Also, it's 4 attacks with Swift Quiver for a Valor. VBs get Extra Attack. So attack twice, then two more as a bonus action from Swift Quiver. With Crossbow Expert and a heavy crossbow, it's the same damage as Agonizing Eldritch Blast at 20th: 4d10+(Modx4). Except the VB can do it from level 10, at the expense of a 5th-level slot and Concentration.

[Citan]

Cleric? Hmm. Not the way I'd go. There’s actually some cool stuff at cleric 1, but a fighter gets all of it and more. Clerics get interesting at higher levels, when stuff like channel divinity kicks in. Many of the benefits they do get key off wisdom, which you’d otherwise have as pretty much a dump stat.
I have to strongly disagree here. ;)
Especially in OP's case who wants some healing capability, but even then.

Fighter 1 brings simple and martial weapons, light, medium+shield and heavy armors, Constitution saving throw proficiency, a Fighting Style (for a Warlock, probably Defense, Dueling or Two-Weapon Fighting) and a short-rest 1d10+1 heal.

Cleric 1 brings simple weapons, light, medium+shield armors, Wisdom saving throw proficiency, 2 cantrips, and 15 interchangeable (on a rest) spells, half of it at least not relying on your Wisdom at all, of which at least 3 can be prepared (Cleric 1 + 14 WIS) at any time.
On top of that, you get the Domain bonus: heavy armor + extra heal (Life), WIS cantrip and heavy armor (Nature), heavy armor and martial weapons (War, Tempest)...

Now, considering that Constitution and Wisdom are both very important saves, any character that want to be prepared for tough fight wants both.
So in the long run you will use a feat on Resilient anyways.

Heavy armor is good if you aim for a STR build. But several Cleric domains cover that.
Martial weapons proficiency is useless for a Pact of the Blade since you are auto-proficient in the chosen weapon... Unless you want to rely on longbows instead of Eldricht Blast (don't see a reason why but hey...)
Fighter healing is totally ridiculous compared to Cure Wounds + Healing Words, which can be used on character or allies, does arguably more average, and get more uses per short rest (especially after Warlock 11).
AND Cleric also gives you a great daily cantrip (Guidance), an alternative for high AC targets (Sacred Flame), and a bunch of great spells for you and friends: Bless is without any doubt a better choice than Hex if you are not soloing and nobody else can cast it, Command is versatile and scalable, Sanctuary / Guiding Bolt / Inflict Wounds / Shield of Faith are nice niche spells, and you get a few rituals to help with adventuring. In addition to potential Domain spells and features.

In fact, for a Bladelock, I'd say Figther's only significant overall benefit Cleric is that it's very easy to dip into whatever the build (Dex OR Str) compared to Cleric's 13 Wis requirement. The Constitution proficiency is a great early boon for some builds (mainly those that want Hex as often as possible), just nice for others (most of every other build), and can be washed out in the long run...
And since you don't want to dump Wisdom in most occasions because too many nasty spells key off it, getting a 13-14 WIS is certainly doable...

(Just pictured in my head a funny -crazy?- character that was dropped out of his Nature Domain order because he just couldn't help destroying/controlling everything and went as far as making a contract with a demon to gain the power to command the beasts... He walks around with his hand-crafted quarterstaff, cladded in a heavy armor that makes him move like a turtle... But he doesn't care at all, because he can blast people in smithereens from afar, and smack some hard Wisdom in the face of those closing in too much...).

[Klorox]

Okay. But as soon as you multi class into any class that gives martial weapon prof on MC, you give up 1/3 to 1/2 have of the entire point of selecting Pact of the Blade Boon: proficiency in a Martial Weapon. If you take enough levels to get Extra Attack, that's just amplified.

In that case, complaining it seems pointless is entirely correct. You've intentionally selected overlapping abilities. It's likes complaining that the HA/Weap proficiencies are pointless if you've MCd Cleric from Fighter or Paladin. Or complaining that Valor Bard doesn't get as much when you MC from those classes. Of course it doesn't. You've chosen to use an optional rule that does the exact same thing as the entire point of Pact of the Blade, exchanging some focus for versatility, and in the process selected overlapping options.

Edit: damn iPad autocorrect had my warlocks fighting with marital weapons :smallbiggrin:
I totally disagree here. That's like saying you won't play a mountain dwarf ranger, because mountain dwarves are already proficient in medium armor. The benefits of starting as a fighter 1 before taking every additional level as a warlock are a lot greater than martial weapon proficiency. They get a better saving throw (considering the blade lock will be in melee and will likely be concentrating on hex), they get heavy armor proficiency (allowing you to dump DEX), all at the cost of one warlock level (which shouldn't be ignored).

I do agree on the extra attack point though. I can't see any good build that gets extra attack from multiple sources.

[Mandragola]

There are a lot of good reasons for cleric 1/warlock X. It’s not the way I’d go, as it makes an already-MAD character even more so, but it’s not awful. I do think it’s worth mentioning that wisdom saves are in no way equal in value to constitution saves, for someone wanting to maintain concentration on the front rank. You don’t need wisdom save proficiency like you need con saves.

I don’t think that a cleric/warlock is what this party needs. It needs a real healer. Someone who can cast healing word 3/day at level 1 (and maybe occasionally using warlock slots) doesn’t do the job, and will fall further and further behind as you level up. If anything, a cleric/warlock stood on the front line is going to require quite a bit of healing himself. 55 healing per day, spread over all the short rests, isn’t worth much at all. And it doesn’t really scale.

In the end, I think that cleric/warlock falls between too many stools. It doesn’t know what its job is and it doesn’t do anything all that well. If you really, really wanted to go this route then paladin 2 seems to me to get you everything that cleric 1 does, plus loads more (notably smite) and without requiring wisdom.

I suggested a valour bard because get to hit the bad guys with swords or shoot them, kind of like a bladelock does, but you stay a proper full caster with an array of healing and control. In a party of wizard, monk and fighter, there’s clearly a gap for a true healer – not someone doing a little bit of healing from a dip. Honestly a full cleric or land druid might be better still, leaving the wizard to do some control, but then you don’t get the two attacks or the archery. They get Heal though, eventually, which bards don’t.

[Tanarii]

I totally disagree here. That's like saying you won't play a mountain dwarf ranger, because mountain dwarves are already proficient in medium armor.Mountain Dwarves get an extra point of attributes because for the majority of character builds a Str character doesn't need medium armor. And vice versa. In other words, the overlap / redundancy is accounted for in the design.


The benefits of starting as a fighter 1 before taking every additional level as a warlock are a lot greater than martial weapon proficiency. They get a better saving throw (considering the blade lock will be in melee and will likely be concentrating on hex), they get heavy armor proficiency (allowing you to dump DEX), all at the cost of one warlock level (which shouldn't be ignored).Yes yes. I agree there are many potential benefits to a Fighter or Cleric dip, if you're willing to pay the price in terms of Warlock levels.

But that's not my point. You're duplicating a large chunk of what makes Pact of the Blade Boon worth selecting: Martial Weapon Proficiency. (This also when multiclassing for Bard & Clerics, the value of their subclass choice / MC choices changes somewhat drastically.) Basically, I'm just talking about wasted value, not the gain side. Or rather, that the normal gains for MC or subclass choice are reduced compared to what they would otherwise be for other subclass choice in combination with that MC choice (or that subclass with a different MC choice).

(edit: And my other point was that complaining about the overlap reducing the value of one side or the other is pointless. You're the one that chose that overlap.)


I do agree on the extra attack point though. I can't see any good build that gets extra attack from multiple sources.
However, as was pointed out to me upthread, if you don't select Extra Attack from another class, since Pact of the Blade Boon also opens up an Extra Attack-like ability (at a cost), is another factor that impacts my point about wasted Martial WP more complicated than is at face value.