Half-caster PrCS that are worth it

[remetagross]

Hello fellow Playgrounders,

"Thou shalt not lose caster levels", says the holy law of caster character optimisation. In practice, this means dumping all PrCs that make you lose more than two CLs right to the thrashbin. And thus, half-casting PrCs like Acolyte of the Skin, Mindbender, etc, are never entered for more than one or two levels.

If someone is to take, say, 10 levels of Mindbender, he loses 5 CL. This means barely gettting 8th level spells at level 20. Up to level 17, the character has two to three levels of spells less than another full-caster PC. So when the Druid 17 gets Storm of Vengeance, the Wizard 7/Mindbender 10 is waiting for one more level before grabbing Reverse Gravity. And his spells last for a shorter amount of time, are easier to dispel, he has a harder time getting past spell resistance, etc. This is a significant nerf (relatively to the power of Tiers 1, of course).

Does anyone know of a 10 levels long half-caster PrC which gives sufficiently high returns to make the character only slightly less powerful than a full-casting character of the same level? Say, the Tiers 1 ends up in Tiers 2 instead of down to Tiers 3. And if not, what would such a homebrew PrC require to reach that objective?

Thanks people,

remetagross

[Flickerdart]

Say, the Tiers 1 ends up in Tiers 2 instead of down to Tiers 3.
Tiers are a measure of versatility. When you lose nines, you don't lose all that much versatility (8 levels of spells do a lot) but you lose so much power that it doesn't really matter. There aren't class features that aren't called "Spellcasting" that give you Tier 2.

[Stealth Marmot]

Generally losing caster levels as a primary caster is a no-no for optimization. If you want a sort of hybrid, usually losing a level or two is okay but people try to avoid it. Every 2 levels lost is a spell level down.

If, however, you have a character who is a secondary caster such as a Bard, Ranger, or Paladin, PRCs without full caster progression are an option for optimization.

[Long_shanks]

To use your example of wizard 10 / mindbender 10, how would you rate it on the tier list? Sure, it lost 5 CL (practised spellcaster brings that back to 1), and can ONLY cast 8th level spells , and only has a permanent minion with no goddam HD limit...
I'm pretty sure that it's still a tier 1, even if it is less powerful than the god wizard with 9th level spells.
I think that this is the case with most partial casting classes. Ending with 8th level spells at the absolute worst could drop you to tier 2, but no lower than that.
As Marmot said, from an optimization standpoint, it's bad. From a game playing standpoint, it's not a problem.

Edit: I didn't see the optimization tag for your post. My bad.

[sleepyphoenixx]

They're not quite half-casting, but Master Transmogrifist and Swiftblade are very good despite both only having 6/10 progression.

Master Transmogrifist gets by purely on the power of Polymorph and its variants, until level 10.
It makes up somewhat for losing 9th level spells at level 10 when you can staple the (Ex) abilities of anything you could shift into on your forms. There's some very nasty (Ex) abilities out there, and you're not as limited with them in daily uses as you'd be with 9th level spells.

Swiftblade just tacks a ton of defensive and offensive abilities onto Haste. The breaking point is probably the 9th level ability that gives you a second standard action per round, and at 10th level the ability to sacrifice Haste spells for Time Stops. Again, not quite as powerful as 9th level spells (which is why most people only take 9 levels), but it's still very strong.
Arguably the ability to cast an extra spell/round makes it stronger on a tactical level, but 9th level spells win strategically.


Other than that half-casting PrCs are a strict downgrade. That's not to say they aren't still T2. A full caster that only gets up to 8th level spells is still at least T2.
He's just a lot weaker than he could be.

[remetagross]

True, you end up with 8 levels, but only at level 20! So before that, you have to suck up two to three less levels of spells...

Flickerdart, I see your point. But some game-changing spells, like Polymorph or Antimagic Field, are of a low enough level that a half-caster class will be able to get them nonetheless. Later than a full-casting, sure, but still (level 9 vs 7 and 15 vs 11, respectively). In that regard, would you consider that the character still possesses a degree of versatility? My point is, since many spells exist in more or less powerful versions, getting access to lower-level spells can still nab you a watered-down version of many important spells (Polymorph vs Shapechange, Greater Celerity vs Time Stop), right?

Now, the aim is to find the half-casting PrC that makes the best attempt at replacing these lost CLs. Mindbender is not bad I suppose, since as Long_Shanks pointed out, it allows for something powerful that requires a bit of resource to be replicated by a full-caster: a permanent, HD-limitless, Dominated creature. So I guess a good starting point is PrCs that give you stuff which is difficult to perform for a full-caster.

Edit: yes, Master Transmogrifist and Swiftblade give you quite some bang for your buck! This is the kind of PrCs I was looking for. Any similar ideas, people?

[CharonsHelper]

In Pathfinder, Dragon Disciple can be pretty solid, though it only loses 3 caster levels.

Also, a lot of people don't go straight sorcerer into Dragon Disciple (StraightBloodrager, or Paladin/Sorc are common) though straight sorcerer can work too.

Though really, most people only take the first four levels of the class. The other six aren't terrible, but the first four are where the meat of the class is. (It really needs another +2 STR in the upper levels, and maybe a shift of the level 4 STR boost to level 5.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Metamind can sort of do this for a psionic class, if you can find something to spend a lot of PP on (in other words, you need ML boosts). The infinite-pp-for-a-minute can be used to manifest a list of maximally-augmented buffs that would drain a psion dry after three manifestings. Downside is: you probably won't have the ML to make this happen, and you're not really cut-out for gishing, with 1/2 base attack and no melee class features.

Mind Mage is 8/10 casting, not half, but it has a second 'weakness', in that it's a theurge class. Despite the fact that a straight entry of wiz 5/psion 5/mind mage 10 leaves you at 13th-level manifesting, it is still a very strong build (ML and CL 23 from just class features, persistomancy, deliver touch spells with force powers...). Optimized entry can get you up to 17th-level manifesting and 15th-level casting, so they're a bit beyond this thread; anything that gets ninths isn't really half-caster anymore. But the weakest entry is a decent example.

Vermin Lord can get you a crazy powerful hivemind. Worth it, but only with copious cheese.

[remetagross]

Metamind is an interesting one indeed. Maybe with some Astral Constructs to give them insane boosts?

[Cosi]

To use your example of wizard 10 / mindbender 10, how would you rate it on the tier list? Sure, it lost 5 CL (practised spellcaster brings that back to 1), and can ONLY cast 8th level spells , and only has a permanent minion with no goddam HD limit...

I remember a review from around when Complete Arcane came out that said going Wizard 10/Mindbender 10 gets about as much Enchantment as Wizard 20 but way less of everything else. Not really where you want to be, IMHO.


I'm pretty sure that it's still a tier 1, even if it is less powerful than the god wizard with 9th level spells.

It's basically a Beguiler. Probably worse because of no 9ths. Definitely worse if you let the Beguiler take PrCs. It's about as good as a Beguiler, without time stop, with polymorph any object.


I think that this is the case with most partial casting classes. Ending with 8th level spells at the absolute worst could drop you to tier 2, but no lower than that.

It depends, because the Tier System is stupid and doesn't have benchmarks. Certainly, you can break the game with 8th level spells. planar binding and More Wishes are things you can do with 6th level spells. At the same time, shapechange on its own is probably better than any given PrC and that's one spell. You also get gate and ice assassin.

[Nifft]

If you're not playing a T1/T2 game, and your goal is not to be all-powerful in the first place, then half-casters can be appropriate.

You have to figure out if the PrC's features are going to meet your goals.

I've heard of games where spellcasting is explicitly only allowed to be half your character level, and for games like that -- which are deliberately not T1/T2 games -- a half-caster may be a great choice.

[Inevitability]

I guess Metamind could take Practiced Manifester and almost entirely fix the ML issue?


Tiers are a measure of versatility. When you lose nines, you don't lose all that much versatility (8 levels of spells do a lot) but you lose so much power that it doesn't really matter. There aren't class features that aren't called "Spellcasting" that give you Tier 2.

Sure there is! It's called 'Summon Alien' (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718). :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

In that regard, would you consider that the character still possesses a degree of versatility?
Like I said, versatility is not the issue. T1 and T2 are defined exclusively by being able to break the campaign, and you just gave up the most effective way of doing so. Most PrCs require you to build in a very specific way if you want to even get close, and we all know that tiers are not for builds.

Master Transmogrifist is strong, but not T2 strong. Polymorph is not shapechange good even with the buffs you get, and the favored forms requirement for most of MT's tricks really cuts down on a lot of abuse.

[Troacctid]

Ultimate Magus is probably okay. Swiftblade is fine. Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator are fine. Elocater is not the worst. Ordained Champion is a personal favorite.

That's all I can think of. I can't come up with any actual 5/10 classes that are worth it—half-casting is very bad.

[eggynack]

One big problem is that half-casters tend to also be kinda mediocre entirely separate from their being half-casters. Take the mindbender, for example. First ability is obviously quite useful, but it's not really important for this, so it makes sense to discount that. Every other ability is a not that significantly improved version of what a wizard was already doing, or otherwise too marginal to be that important. Thrall, for example? This supposed perfect sidekick? The wizard already had it, and it was called dominate person/monster. It's not like getting that permanent style is so much better than getting it days/level and then renewing it every so often. The same goes for other items down the list, like charm person variant, or the detect thoughts variant. What are we in this for? A strange pursuit of the worst school of magic in the game, one that doesn't really eliminate any of the problems with that school?

It might be an obviously true claim, but I feel it must be stated that, were this a full casting class, you'd be better off with incantatrix. You'd be better off with a lot of things, really. Even one of the most generic and standard prestige classes, fatespinner, is pretty solid compared with the full mindbender. Or, hell, warweaver, and you can consider that with or without the single caster level loss if you want. And forget about initiate of the sevenfold veil. Mindbender isn't just bad because it has awful casting progression. It was a mediocre class, and then they stacked on a whole lot of level loss for some reason. It's not awful by any means. If it were this or nothing then you'd take this over the rare bonus feat progression of a straight wizard nine times out of ten. But a lot of +1 tier prestige classes are going to be in a better spot, and that's really awkward for a class that's also taking this hit.

All of this reflects a central reality of half-casting prestige classes, that instead of someone saying, "I'm going to give this class an objectively amazing power, but balance it with this loss that ultimately proves too great to breach with power on any scale," the significantly conservative designer that chose to ditch a lot of caster levels out of fear of a high power level was the same significantly conservative game designer that created these "powerful" abilities in the first place. There's this cognitive assumption that, if you're losing something big, what you're gaining on the other side might not be nearly as big, but it's probably better than what the lesser losers are losing. And that assumption, from what I've seen, does not hold true in this game. Classes have a strange tendency to be universally great or universally awful, with only limited mixing of great abilities into the awful and vice versa. There are rare exceptions, but you're mostly going to find a lot of crap.

So, yeah, existing stuff isn't going to do the job, mostly. As for what you could do to make those classes measure up, it kinda extends back into that older concept of the tier one or two mundane/martial class. You're certainly not in that exact place, cause casting is right there, but it's the kinda thing that will prove important. The action economy is a good place to start. Swiftblade has that tendency, but it doesn't seem to measure up in its current state, so getting it to that point faster and with greater benefit could help a lot.

[Anthrowhale]

Beholder Mage, Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, Halruaan Elder, Hathran, Iot7fv, and Red Wizard are all reasonable half-casting classes.

...except that they are full casting or better.

[Thurbane]

Half-casting PrCs can be OK if they are advancing a fast progression caster like Ur Priest.

[Inevitability]

Half-casting PrCs can be OK if they are advancing a fast progression caster like Ur Priest.

That's more because of the latter than the former, though. :smalltongue:

[Troacctid]

Not necessarily—Suel Arcanamach is not exactly overpowered, for example, but it combines pretty well with half-casting prestige classes.

[J-H]

Ultimate Magus is probably okay. Swiftblade is fine. Jade Phoenix Mage and Ruby Knight Vindicator are fine. Elocater is not the worst. Ordained Champion is a personal favorite.

That's all I can think of. I can't come up with any actual 5/10 classes that are worth it—half-casting is very bad.
Psion Uncarnate is pretty good, if you can take it to 10; it's basically another way of getting the Unbodied monster template (LA+4). Incorporeality protects against most magical forms of HP damage (50% miss chance) and against most weapons (most monsters/dragons/etc don't walk around with ghost touch).
That said, starting with the LA+4 template is better.

[remetagross]

Ok, so the idea is that the class has to give you something very resource-consuming if you were to get it by normal magical means:

-Psion Uncarnate: Persistified Etherealness
-Swiftblade: Persistified Greater Blur + Celerity without daze every turn
-Ruby Knight Vindicator: I actually don't know any other way of getting additional swift actions.
-Jade Phoenix Mage: actually, as for Ruby Knight Vindicator, manoeuvers act as a sort of watered-down replacement for some of the spells lost, plus only 2 caster levels are lost.
-Ordained Champion: free Quicken applied to all War spells (plus only 2 caster levels lost).
-Ultimate Magus: well, it does not really fit in the "half-casting PrC" category.
-Elocater: only loses 3 caster levels, so not really fittin either, though this one does not give you much bang for your buck in my opinion (or else it wouldn't be the Secret Ingredient of the current Iron Chef Challenge :smalltongue:)

[Inevitability]

Not necessarily—Suel Arcanamach is not exactly overpowered, for example, but it combines pretty well with half-casting prestige classes.

I was referring to the 'ur priest' part, not the 'half-casting' part.

[Nifft]

Psion Uncarnate is pretty good, if you can take it to 10; it's basically another way of getting the Unbodied monster template (LA+4). Incorporeality protects against most magical forms of HP damage (50% miss chance) and against most weapons (most monsters/dragons/etc don't walk around with ghost touch).
That said, starting with the LA+4 template is better.

The Unbodied monster has 4 RHD (monstrous humanoid) which grant Psion 4 manifesting, and those also grant 2 good saves, full BAB, and 1d8 HP per level. So those are strictly better than Psion levels.

Then it has LA +4 on it, which hurts a lot, but which might be better than 4 dead levels... especially when you add in the at-will TK ability, the at-will disguise self ability, the racial stat bonuses, and the racial blanket immunity to Divinations & Clairsentience powers.

If you can dispose of the LA somehow, either by playing so high that buyoff is practical, or via a campaign-specific LA reduction, the Unbodied race is actually quite good.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm

[Flickerdart]

Not necessarily—Suel Arcanamach is not exactly overpowered, for example, but it combines pretty well with half-casting prestige classes.
Suel Arcanamach is a warrior that gets some casting, not a spellcaster. By taking a half-casting class you're diluting the already diluted magic, so it doesn't hurt as much (kind of like how Bud Light is so awful that Bud Light Lime is not actually worse).