Increased Party Size - How should I adjust the encounters?

[atemu1234]

My party are running in an evil campaign, Underdark, but using pathfinder rules. I planned out an adventure path for fourth level, but the players have (relatively unfortunately) invited a few friends, and since I don't really host, I don't have too much of a choice except to DM for a group of a half-dozen adventurers.

The party consists of:
- A sixth-level Antipaladin Drow
- A sixth-level Erudite/Thrallherd of some weird race that boosts charisma all to hell
- A pair of sixth-level druids - a drow and a slyth
- A sixth-level rogue drow
- A sixth-level bloodrager damphyr

When normally it wouldn't have the bloodrager or the antipaladin or the rogue, and would have a sorcerer drow. But I work with what I've got.

The first and largest issue is initiative - it's cumbersome and the PCs have boosted all their own initiatives to high hell. So sticking improved initiative on all the enemies is goal one.

But then there's the CR issue - they blasted past a couple EL 8 encounters, and seem to be a bit... overqualified for the task of wiping out a small encampment of Drey (Plot and Poison, Green Ronin publishing) and their leader, who is a sixth-level barbarian and should be around CR 8, and her companions (all basically meat shields, drey males who I re-CRed as about CR 1 due to how poorly their CRs adjusted to Pathfinder). I'm tempted to stack on a couple more levels of barbarian and give her a cleric ally - but I'm worried that may overdo it. Any advice?

[denthor]

Additional members mean additional villains.

Potions of heroism consumed will give a plus two to everything.

An extra caster 3or 4 the level no big deal if the "villians" are good all the better.

Protection from evil\good harder to hit.

If villians are evil cast bless followed by curse both 1st level spell the second allows a savingthrow some may miss.

Sanctuary on the cleric. To heal and not get hit.

[John Longarrow]

8 Things...
1) More enemies since the party has 150% of their normal action economy
2) Traps. Party looks like they will have a horrible time fighting in an environment that includes traps that the enemy knows about. This IS the underdark...
3) Boosts for the monsters. Not burning feats, but put a high charisma marshal in the back with motivate Dex. Adds that persons Cha bonus to everyone in ranges Init.
4) Scouts. Don't let the party just walk in on the bad guys. Let them encounter one or two (who other's are keeping an eye on)
5) Underdark = Tight areas. Make use of this with narrow spots and ambush tactics on behalf of the defenders. If the party could/would do it, so would the monsters.
6) Let the monsters come looking for the party. If the PCs get attacks where they are from time to time that makes it a lot more balanced.
7) Remember that the party won't consider an ECL 6 challenge as easy, they will count an ECL 9 challenge as easy. The party is not only heavy on druids, there are a lot more of them.
8) Summoned monsters. Take a look at the grimwierd in MM III. If you have one, let it have a succubi or two around that is's used its lesser planar binding to bring in. It would also have its summoned Chain or bearded devils rotating in quickly for support. Nasty ECL 11 encounter that sounds about right as a minor challenge to the party.

[atemu1234]

Okay, so for their big 'boss' encounter I've made the following adjustments
- The leader of the Drey band is an eighth level barbarian (CR 10, total), with PC wealth and her companion is an eighth level Dread Necromancer, and they're paired with eight drey skeletons, who, with the boost from Undead Mastery, have an initiative bonus of +10. They should at least provide a distraction. Total EL of the encounter is ~12, should they be able to handle it?

[John Longarrow]

I don't think it will be that big of a problem for a 6 person party.

Your BBEG doesn't have the stats to make a good barbarian, but would make a fantastic sorcerer/wizard. Your using a race with no bonus to STR or DEX and trying to face off against 2 party members with wild shape. I think you'd be better off with a bunch of 1 or 2 HD undead supporting a pair of spell casters.

The barbarian will need to get close, thus will die pretty quickly unless you do something to boost AC really high.

[atemu1234]

I don't think it will be that big of a problem for a 6 person party.

Your BBEG doesn't have the stats to make a good barbarian, but would make a fantastic sorcerer/wizard. Your using a race with no bonus to STR or DEX and trying to face off against 2 party members with wild shape. I think you'd be better off with a bunch of 1 or 2 HD undead supporting a pair of spell casters.

The barbarian will need to get close, thus will die pretty quickly unless you do something to boost AC really high.

Any suggestions on what could boost AC?

[Malroth]

+2 HD on all bruisers and all melee guys come in at least pairs. Casters get hummingbird familiars and AOE save or suck spells, Bosses get +3HD max HP pre fight buff potions/scrolls and a couple extra cr-3 caster minions to throw around AOE save or suck spells, clouds, and walls to lessen the action advantage. caster bosses have quicken spell, craft contigent spell, Celerity, and twin spell and abuse them all.

[Enguebert]

I was the DM of a campaign where number of players were between 5 and 7 so here is the solution i used

1) For minions : add 50% to 100% of minions, unchanged. With high numbers of minions, you can give something to do to every player
Just be aware of AoE effects. A fireball can clean all minions, so adding more minions doesn't change fight if characters use often AoE

2) For Lieutenants : for HP, use "loaded dice". Instead of using 1D8+CON, i use 1D4+4+CON so lieutenant have better HP and don't go down too fast.
Also, especially for spellcasters, add a second Lieutenant at CR-2 to CR/2 (depending level), who can cast low level buff on minions (goal is to equalize action economy)

3) For Boss or unique monster : use max HP (to avoid combat too short) and add a lieutenant or a second (weaker) monster (young monster, mate, hurted monster,...)

The advantage of boosting HP is that important combat are not done in 1 round (especially if they have good initiative) but if combat goes wrong for players, you can quickly switch back to normal HP

Also, use environment to avoid one-round fight. A sentinel, a door to pick/bash, an alarm... all those means give time to your minions to buff themselves.
Adding to every mob 1 potion they drink before the fight + 1 spell from the boss can change the fight


Now for your specific fight
A barb CR6 + some CR1 mobs is a decent challenge for 4 lvl 4 char, but for level 6 char, it is a cakewalk

You need first to upgrade the fight for a group of level 6, then upgrade it again for the number of players

Barb CR6-> Barb CR8 seems ok. Be aware that barbarian is not a terrible class for a boss. A barbarian can do huge amount of damage and quickly dispatch a player, but has poor defense and will go down quickly.
Minions CR1 -> i would adjust them to have at least 3 HD. A CR1 Creature is no real threat for a lvl 6, will have hard time to hit players and will die in 1 hit. Worse, at level 6, players have access to AoE and the AoE will kill them all, even on successful save. At 3 HD, they will survive a fireball on a successfull save

Now to upgrade to the number of players
Double the number of minions, and add a lieutenant (a cleric who focus on healing the bard, or a sorcerer who buff the minions or the boss) and now you have a decent fight for your group

[nyjastul69]

The simplest ways I've found to increase encounter difficulty without too much work(i.e. changing number of beasties) is to assume maximum hp's instead of average hit points. I also sometimes add a 'positive' level to a creature on the fly to adjust. It's like a negative level, but in reverse.

[denthor]

Protection from evil plus 2 to a/c

[Sayt]

Generally speaking, every other party member over 4 (IE, 6, 8 etc) raises the Average party level by 1, so with 6 people at CR 6, you have an APL7 for this party. However, you have two druids and a Thrallherd, for a potential of 3 extra characters/actions, soooo yeah.

Here's my advice: discuss a softban on combat focused companions (fighter thralls, Megafauna animal companions, etc, but not horses/riding dogs): These throw off CR, and take up time.

Second: Don't stack on a few more levels of Barbarian, stack on a few more barbarians. With large parties, don't necessarily go for more powerful singular opponents, go for multiple, less powerful ones.

Pumping up one guy doesn't work super well, because he still only gets one set of actions, and the bignumbers they get don't mean squat against the action economy disadvantage, until the party only hits them on a 20 and they wipe a player a turn, which does not so much with the goodfeelings.

So for the example instead of a CR 8 barbarian and a dozen CR1 chumps, go for a coterie of your CR 8 Barbarian a 3-4 CR 5~ Barbarians and some support (A skald perhaps, or a cleric). Do not focus fire individual characters. This is more work, but it should maintain the expected to hit/ac math, provide a tactically interesting fight, and be engaging.