Self-Forged (Prestige Class)

[Arkhios]

I did a massive overhaul while I ported the prestige class to Homebrewery (Link here (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rkWH7VP_Nx); works best with Chrome)

[Leuku]

Yeeesss, I just posted my "Mad Scientist" crafter class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507374-Mad-Scientist-Int-based-Half-caster-Crafter-Class-for-5e)

And I think a Self-Forged subclass could work well within its structure. "Artificer" is in fact a subclass for my Mad Scientist.

There are 5 subclass levels, 3, 7, 10, 15, and 20, and so there is a lot of room for customization. We could build affect engines into the body, steadily converting oneself into a construct.

What kind of features would you want to see in a 5e Self-forged? What sort of mechanics?

[khadgar567]

Count me in as well thats my favorite 4th edition prc

[Arkhios]

I don't have either books available right now, but the idea was, IIRC, that a non-warforged would deliberately replace their own - functioning - bodyparts with warforged-esque mechanical parts, gaining all sorts of marvelous abilities with it.

Kinda like the polar opposite to warforged with a pinocchio syndrome, "warforged who wants to become a real boy". A non-warforged trying to have oneself become a warforged.

[khadgar567]

I don't have either books available right now, but the idea was, IIRC, that a non-warforged would deliberately replace their own - functioning - bodyparts with warforged-esque mechanical parts, gaining all sorts of marvelous abilities with it.

Kinda like the polar opposite to warforged with a pinocchio syndrome, "who wants to be a real boy". A non-warforged trying to have oneself become a warforged.
on basic level yes. we have the gaige the artificer hacking one of her arm to install battle fist .
for people with out books here (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/EPG_PPath_SFor.pdf) is wizards page about class.
so were we start claws or fist?

[Arkhios]

on basic level yes. we have the gaige the artificer hacking one of her arm to install battle fist .
for people with out books here (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/EPG_PPath_SFor.pdf) is wizards page about class.
so were we start claws or fist?

I would prefer the original prestige class as a basis, because 4th edition is more difficult to convert to 5th edition, being so long a step away from the prior 20 levels pace.
And because, arguably 4th edition had a more pronounced focus in combat.

That said, I'd say the initial step for the first level in this Prestige Class could be to choose from various options, not just fist/claws for arm, but also head, torso, or leg modifications.

Obviously you'd have to be non-warforged.

The core definition of a self-forged would be "artificial body modifications".

I could see that these modifications could be based on rune scribe's runes advancement, and that you'd need to have con 13 (to withstand the amount of pain caused by cutting off your own body parts) and int 13 (to have advanced knowledge about technology)

[khadgar567]

Head, torsto and other modifications are under the support construct skill of prc but we can merge them under one skill and call it self modifications were each level we grab one modification from list.

[Leuku]

What do you think of this as the first 3rd level "Self-Forged" feature for my Mad Scientist?

Self Forged
At 3rd level, you can begin to augment your body, steadily transforming yourself into a construct. When constructing an affect engine, you can build it into a part of your body. If you do so, it cannot be removed or moved to another part of your body unless you spend an hour reconstructing it to do so. When built into a limb, you gain proficiency in unarmed strikes with that limb, and your unarmed strikes with that limb deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage + 1d4 engine type damage.

[khadgar567]

What do you think of this as the first 3rd level "Self-Forged" feature for my Mad Scientist?

Self Forged
At 3rd level, you can begin to augment your body, steadily transforming yourself into a construct. When constructing an affect engine, you can build it into a part of your body. If you do so, it cannot be removed or moved to another part of your body unless you spend an hour reconstructing it to do so. When built into a limb, you gain proficiency in unarmed strikes with that limb, and your unarmed strikes with that limb deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage + 1d4 engine type damage.
looks nice but can we please cut the crap and give the class spell casting with out calling schemas, gadgets or engines. know we have level to begin and main feature of the prc so next is what is our level range?

[Leuku]

looks nice but can we please cut the crap and give the class spell casting with out calling schemas, gadgets or engines. know we have level to begin and main feature of the prc so next is what is our level range?

"Engine" refers to Affect Engine, a distinct feature separate from spellcasting.

I have subclass levels at 3, 7, 10, 15 and 20.

[khadgar567]

Its your class so name it whatever you want

[Arkhios]

looks nice but can we please cut the crap and give the class spell casting with out calling schemas, gadgets or engines. know we have level to begin and main feature of the prc so next is what is our level range?

If you're still on about that artificers should have spells, they didn't originally have spellcasting, and still shouldn't. But, can't speak for Mad Scientists as it's technically not the same thing (though similar - with an Artificer archetype).


What do you think of this as the first 3rd level "Self-Forged" feature for my Mad Scientist?

Self Forged
At 3rd level, you can begin to augment your body, steadily transforming yourself into a construct. When constructing an affect engine, you can build it into a part of your body. If you do so, it cannot be removed or moved to another part of your body unless you spend an hour reconstructing it to do so. When built into a limb, you gain proficiency in unarmed strikes with that limb, and your unarmed strikes with that limb deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage + 1d4 engine type damage.

I think that's quite good, although why would you need to add another +1d4 <any type> damage? When compared to normal unarmed strike (1 + strength), 1d4 + strength is already relatively big boost.

Not to belittle your efforts, I wasn't exactly looking for an archetype, but instead a Prestige Class in the same vein as the Rune Scribe as seen in the past Rune Magic UA article.

Meaning it would have five levels which anyone, meeting the requirements, could take as if multiclassing.

[khadgar567]

now we have the prcs main ability (self modification), prcs range( 5 levels) and prcs starting level( 3rd level) so whats next currently prc looks like

self modification, class continuation
<prc feature>
<prc feature 2>
Ability Score Improvement (as is normal for fourth level)
<some sort of apotheosis feature>

[Arkhios]

now we have the prcs main ability (self modification), prcs range( 5 levels) and prcs starting level( 3rd level) so whats next currently prc looks like

self modifcation, class continuation
<prc feature>
<prc feature 2>
Ability Score Improvement (as is normal for fourth level)
<some sort of apotheosis feature>


Emphasis mine. It could be, like with Rune Scribe, transmutable ASI. Once when you finish long rest you could modify it to grant +2 to strength, dexterity, or constitution, or +1 to any two of those (but no feats).
If by class continuation you mean that the primary class would continue to progress, I'm quite against it (unless it was spellcasting, but I don't see that neccessary for Self-forged)

[khadgar567]

Emphasis mine. It could be, like with Rune Scribe, transmutable ASI. Once when you finish long rest you could modify it to grant +2 to strength, dexterity, or constitution, or +1 to any two of those (but no feats).
okay so we need two more abilities for prc how about getting proficient with constructs and healing since prc needs good knowledge to modify their body with construct parts and any one has idea for self modification fluff my option is lets give class modification each level and as cap skill gaining construct immensities. so what type of modifications this class gonna have we hale battle fist as bludgeoning, my battle claws idea for slashing and maybe spell cannon were we get more range on ranged spells.

[Arkhios]

okay so we need two more abilities for prc how about getting proficient with constructs and healing since prc needs good knowledge to modify their body with construct parts and any one has idea for self modification fluff my option is lets give class modification each level and as cap skill gaining construct immensities. so what type of modifications this class gonna have we hale battle fist as bludgeoning, my battle claws idea for slashing and maybe spell cannon were we get more range on ranged spells.

Gosh, that was a mouthful. Could you please try and use more punctuation? I had to read this three times to make sense of it.

Anyway, self-healing idea does sound about right indeed. In that vein, it could have a full spellcasting progression, regardless of whether the primary class had it or not.
The self-healing could be modeled by Moon Circle druid's ability to heal themselves while wild shaped, expending spell slots for that: 1d8 for 1st-level slot, 2d8 for 2nd-level slot, 3d8 for 3rd-level slot, etc. Although, contrary to the Moon Druid's ability, this would in my opinion require an Action to use.

I have a few ideas for possible modifications. I made up a few high-tech prosthetics when I was designing my post-apocalyptic setting. I'll just have to dig them up from wherever I've put them. (A good safe isn't it. Sometimes, even I can't find it) :smallbiggrin:

[Arkhios]

Ah, found them (https://torn-horizon.obsidianportal.com/wikis/technology).

[khadgar567]

sorry mate but still not enough. And they are to generic. I mean they are good but if some one gonna use this prc in character they need some way to be useful like gaining smash attack or two claw attacks or in spell cannons case ability to hit hard and hit further then their non prc counter parts so any different ideas besides claws, arm cannon and over sized fists
my picks from your work eyes and legs( probably gains speed boost)

[Arkhios]

sorry mate but still not enough. And they are to generic. I mean they are good but if some one gonna use this prc in character they need some way to be useful like gaining smash attack or two claw attacks or in spell cannons case ability to hit hard and hit further then their non prc counter parts so any different ideas besides claws, arm cannon and over sized fists
my picks from your work eyes and legs( probably gains speed boost)

Did I say that would be all? Of course there should be more.

[khadgar567]

Did I say that would be all? Of course there should be more.
thanks for mass brewing arkhios if you dont mind can you give me two more class skills so I can start to cook class table for class.

[Arkhios]

*ahem*, my bad... I just got my hands upon the original "Self-forged". Memory didn't serve me well this time. The prestige class was originally called Renegade Mastermaker (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/classes/renegade-mastermaker/index.html), and yes, it did have Battlefist as a first level feature, so I suppose that's where we should start too (more in line with 4e version then; I'm sincerely sorry that I was relying on my flawed memory of the prestige class).

Looking at the original prestige class, if self-forged was a full class, its class skills would be, converted to 5th edition: Arcana, History, and Investigation.
In addition, I think it would have proficiency at least in Blacksmithing tools, but could probably have proficiency in Tinker's tools as well.

For prestige class purposes I would say that you would need at least Arcana, and then either History or Investigation.

What comes to their other class features. You could become a Renegade Mastermaker even if you weren't an artificer (contrary to 4th edition, a condition which I'd like to keep), and you would progress spellcasting at roughly 4/5 pace (close enough to full caster, so I'd just use that instead), so definitely they would get spellcasting equal to their level.

Edit: moved the prestige class details to the First Post.

[khadgar567]

Looks good arkhios but can we give class way to salvage old path abilities like path continuation: sellf forged artificers dedication to his path allows him to learn secrets more quickly

[Arkhios]

Looks good arkhios but can we give class way to salvage old path abilities like path continuation: sellf forged artificers dedication to his path allows him to learn secrets more quickly

I dunno, first we would have to know how 5th edition Artificer was laid out. Let's just stick to having spellcasting progression for now. (Since the "official" artificer from Eberron UA is a Wizard tradition, it does make for an interesting combination that could well be quite strong)

And to be fair, the Renegade Mastermaker was equally attractive to anyone, as you didn't have to have any specific class to qualify for it, and I'd like to keep it that way with Self-forged. No single class should be favored for this.

[khadgar567]

love the rune arm( rune arm cannon) and for proper artificer besides home brew we need to wait plane shift kalaskar from mtg expansions since its more developed version of eberon we deffinetly gonna get some thing close to 3.5 artificer. as for battle fist damage looks bit weak for warforged arm so why not 1d8 + str mod as damage and i realy like the rune arm looks promising good range and good omp in single package if only we can augment rune arm with some thing like lenses to customize it like allowing multiple shots via flurry lance or further range by adding sniper lane

[Arkhios]

Because 5th edition is different from 4th edition balance-wise, I don't want to make any of these unreasonably powerful. Normal unarmed strike deals 1 damage (plus strength), so even that 1d4 is big boost. Considering that a normal unarmed strike critical hit damage isn't different from normal damage, while the improved 1d4 crits as 2d4 (1 dmg vs. 2 to 8 damage, before modifiers), it's actually quite a lot, for unarmed strike.
And, if I recall, 4th edition monk did 1d8 with their unarmed strikes, while the 5th edition counterpart starts at 1d4. Likewise Tavern Brawler lets you deal greater damage with unarmed strike (1d4). So far, only Monks and Tavern Brawlers have that edge, and only monks get even better than that. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

Likewise, the damage for Runic Arm-Cannon is in line with DMG's rules for making new spells. (Single target spells should deal roughly 1d10 damage per slot level).
So, for the cost of one action to be able to attack multiple times with potentially dealing 9d10 damage each, it could be a bit too much. I based it on spell slot expenditure intentionally. While it's not a spell, it follows same guidelines.

A possible modification to Runic Arm-Cannon might be a separate ability with small area burst (maybe 15 feet sphere) dealing 2d6 damage per spell slot, allowing Dex save for half damage.

What comes to Plane Shift, I won't take any substitute for Eberron. It's either Keith Baker's Eberron, or none at all! :smallbiggrin:

[Kellendros95]

I don't have either books available right now, but the idea was, IIRC, that a non-warforged would deliberately replace their own - functioning - bodyparts with warforged-esque mechanical parts, gaining all sorts of marvelous abilities with it.

Kinda like the polar opposite to warforged with a pinocchio syndrome, "warforged who wants to become a real boy". A non-warforged trying to have oneself become a warforged.

You're welcome.
Constructor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486182-Kellendros95-s-Base-Class-Constructor-PEACH&p=20711267#post20711267)

[Arkhios]

You're welcome.
Constructor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486182-Kellendros95-s-Base-Class-Constructor-PEACH&p=20711267#post20711267)

That sure is nice, I'll give you that. Still, I was looking for prestige class specifically. Do you mind if I borrow a feature or two from that?

PS. I updated the original post with the latest changes, and with a few modification options i came up with; I'll keep updating it once I refine the prostheses from the link I shared.

[khadgar567]

Looks solid for battle fist i think we can have 5th level exculusive shcema allowing us to use tools with battle fist

[Arkhios]

Looks solid for battle fist i think we can have 5th level exculusive shcema allowing us to use tools with battle fist

I'm not sure if that's neccessary, because you can only have one battlefist, and you can use your other hand with tools that require fine manipulation. But, I suppose I could whip up a schematic to apply to a regular Battlefist that would let you, maybe as a bonus action, to transform your hand into a "swiss army knife" which you could use as a multi-purpose tool within common sense. :smallbiggrin:

[khadgar567]

I'm not sure if that's neccessary, because you can only have one battlefist, and you can use your other hand with tools that require fine manipulation. But, I suppose I could whip up a schematic to apply to a regular Battlefist that would let you, maybe as a bonus action, to transform your hand into a "swiss army knife" which you could use as a multi-purpose tool within common sense. :smallbiggrin:
currently around level 2 of this prc you have both hands changed in to battle fist with out your opinion and this means bye bye somatic components aka by bye your old casting and hello worlds first useless muscle mage in 5th edition congratulations you made impossible build possible by two level of your prc.

[Arkhios]

currently around level 2 of this prc you have both hands changed in to battle fist with out your opinion and this means bye bye somatic components aka by bye your old casting and hello worlds first useless muscle mage in 5th edition congratulations you made impossible build possible by two level of your prc.

Actually, no. I changed it, because it does make some sense you would only have one battlefist since it's relatively clumsy:


Body Modification - Battlefist: You replace one of your arms with a mechanical arm constructed from metals, stones, and wood fibres. The Battlefist is incapable of fine manipulation, but you can hold other items with it. Your unarmed strike damage with the battlefist increases to 1d4. You can have up to one battlefist.

[khadgar567]

Actually, no. I changed it, because it does make some sense you would only have one battlefist since it's relatively clumsy:
okay,so do we still gonna add chest modifications or leg modifications like lightning generator for chest which allow us to use shocking grasp with out spending spell slot( or spending for additional damage via fist(like chidori from Naruto)) or some sort of built in jet pack.

[Arkhios]

okay,so do we still gonna add chest modifications or leg modifications like lightning generator for chest which allow us to use shocking grasp with out spending spell slot( or spending for additional damage via fist(like chidori from Naruto)) or some sort of built in jet pack.

yeah, of course, I'm working on them, it's just taking a while as I've got my hands full with all sorts of things right now. I'll add them eventually though.

Please do drop any ideas you come up with into this thread and I'll transcribe them for further consistency.

Currently I'm thinking that the body modification slots - in addition to Battlefist - could be face, torso, and both legs (unlike arms, legs are not used for as much as hands, so both legs could probably be modified more easily)

[Arkhios]

I made a massive overhaul when I ported the prestige class to Homebrewery. Check out the OP for the link. Please, let me know what you think. Also, any design and schematic ideas for Hydraulic Boosters and Heuristic Processor are more than welcome.

[Llama513]

This is awesome, I really want to try this out, a gnome wizard Self-Forged would be so much fun, or just a crazy wizard, oh yay so many possibilities, so much fun

How exactly do the designs interact with each other, cause certain ones seem to be incompatible with each other, and how much do schematics cost?

[Arkhios]

This is awesome, I really want to try this out, a gnome wizard Self-Forged would be so much fun, or just a crazy wizard, oh yay so many possibilities, so much fun

How exactly do the designs interact with each other, cause certain ones seem to be incompatible with each other, and how much do schematics cost?

I'll have to re-write the restriction, but designs are mutually exclusive. Each design replace the other per constructed part. For example, if you re-design your Battlefist into Runic Arm-Cannon, it can't be a Battle Claw at the same time.

Each schematic is tied to specific designs. Some of them can be applied to multiple designs in multiple constructed parts (such as Storage).
For example, if you keep Battlefist as it is by default, you can't apply the Runic Blast schematic, since it requires a Runic Arm-Cannon to function. Likewise, you must have Jet Pack design before you can add Retractable Wings schematic.

[Llama513]

Okay, that makes sense, as for designs for the Processor and Legs,

You could give darkvision, a magnifying lens, and a telescope as options,

The legs to could allow for climbing at full speed with ice hooks, ignore difficult terrain, feet bend to fit the terrain, swim speed, little propellers

[Arkhios]

I haven't figured out the prices of each schematic yet, but I think that they could depend on the minimum level required for each schematic. For example if you wanted the Retractable Wings schematic, you'd have to be at fifth level, since it modifies a design of your torso, which you get at 5th level.

Maybe the costs could follow a relatively simple formula:

Minimum self-forged level required for the constructed part x minimum spell slot level used for the schematic's ability (minimum 1, obviously) x 100 gp.

A Storage for Battlefist (min. Level 1):
1 x 1 x 100 = 100 gp.
A Storage for Legs (min. Level 2):
2 x 1 x 100 = 200 gp.
A Storage for Head (min. Level 3):
...wait, that doesn't make sense (lol)
A Storage for Torso (min. Level 5):
5 x 1 x 100 = 500 gp.

Retractable Wings (min. Level 5):
5 x 3 x 100 = 1500 gp.

Since you have to pay the cost every time you apply a schematic, I would think that you would have to think carefully if and when you change them - especially with the wings :P


Btw, hydraulic booster is only a project name, if someone can come up with a cooler name, I'm all ears.
Also, I think Heuristic Processor could make more sense as a schematic for a constructed head part (cranial inset?)

Likewise, I'm trying to decide what should I call the constructed part of torso. Torso just feels so... contrived, while otherwise accurate. Dorsal would refer to back while ventral would refer to front/belly, so I guess I'll go with those separately (Jet Pack would be dorsal design, for example)
Maybe thoracic brace for the reinforcement of torso?

[Llama513]

So what I'm seeing is you will eventually be the million gold man, cue theme song

[khadgar567]

So what I'm seeing is you will eventually be the million gold man, cue theme song
I will say cyborg from dc or smalest case jax from mortal kombat.

[Llama513]

Your probably closer with those two

[khadgar567]

@arkhios cant read retacable wings mate

[Arkhios]

@arkhios cant read retacable wings mate

Should work now. Check it out :)

[Arkhios]

So what I'm seeing is you will eventually be the million gold man, cue theme song
I will say cyborg from dc or smalest case jax from mortal kombat.

Can't tell if that's a good thing or not...? Anyway, a wizard has to pay for copying spells to his book, so it's not that different. Might even have to pay for the scrolls if he can't find them. The cost covers the materials required for the application.

What's more important is that I haven't set the prices in stone yet. If you think lower prices would be more reasonable, I'll change it. I just thought that since you actually construct something into your body, you'd have to provide the materials, and good materials ain't cheap.

[khadgar567]

I say we fuse all modifications in to single ability instead of three different know you have this permanent modification for rest of your adventuring career and looks like we can use improved trusters schematics for jet pack were we use our normal speed( main improvement ), and greater one to get flight at double of our land speed

and here is my build for the prc link (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BJMYJEKVg)

[Arkhios]

I say we fuse all modifications in to single ability instead of three different know you have this permanent modification for rest of your adventuring career and looks like we can use improved trusters schematics for jet pack were we use our normal speed( main improvement ), and greater one to get flight at double of our land speed

and here is my build for the prc link

I would much rather you didn't copy paste my homebrew so shamelessly. I appreciate your help, but if you intend to make your own iteration, then do it yourself from the start for decency. :smallannoyed:

What you've done is you've basically hijacked the homebrew. You could've asked if it was ok before you do that, you know.

[khadgar567]

I would much rather you didn't copy paste my homebrew so shamelessly. I appreciate your help, but if you intend to make your own iteration, then do it yourself from the start for decency. :smallannoyed:

What you've done is you've basically hijacked the homebrew. You could've asked if it was ok before you do that, you know.
I am sorry Arkhios but currently our homebrews are lot of different between each other but still sorry for using your words.

[Arkhios]

I am sorry Arkhios but currently our homebrews are lot of different between each other but still sorry for using your words.

That's exactly why I got upset about it. You broke a "copyright" by doing that without my knowledge. That's just rude. Technically it's not illegal because I don't have a formal copyright, but it's still rather questionable.

I'm ok with you borrowing what I've made and making your own build out of it, but what I'm not ok with, is that you did that without asking me first.

[khadgar567]

That's exactly why I got upset about it. You broke a "copyright" by doing that without my knowledge. That's just rude. Technically it's not illegal because I don't have a formal copyright, but it's still rather questionable.

I'm ok with you borrowing what I've made and making your own build out of it, but what I'm not ok with, is that you did that without asking me first.
lets legalese this problem can I use your work Arkhios( even this is bit late know).

[Arkhios]

lets legalese this problem can I use your work Arkhios( even this is bit late know).

Honestly, I'm not so sure about it. I suppose you can borrow what I've made, but if you use something to the letter, I would appreciate if credit is due where it belongs; just... don't claim the entire document as a co-work project.
Especially I mean the designs and schematics you copied. Those were largely my own invention, except for Rocket Fist which was a friend's idea.

[Anon von Zilch]

How does "proficiency with critical hits" work, khadgar567?

[khadgar567]

How does "proficiency with critical hits" work, khadgar567?
idea is since you understand humanoid body much better than normally you know how to deal more damage.

[Arkhios]

How does "proficiency with critical hits" work, khadgar567?idea is since you understand humanoid body much better than normally you know how to deal more damage.

I believe he would want to know what it really does. "Proficiency with critical hits" is really not a thing defined within the rules. If you wish to create a new mechanic, you have to explain what it does. Or, if you wish to use an existing mechanic, you have to refer to the exact mechanic, preferably using the wording as it is.

[khadgar567]

I believe he would want to know what it really does. "Proficiency with critical hits" is really not a thing defined within the rules. If you wish to create a new mechanic, you have to explain what it does. Or, if you wish to use an existing mechanic, you have to refer to the exact mechanic, preferably using the wording as it is.
then I need help with the wording for it.

[Arkhios]

then I need help with the wording for it.

If you want help for your own self-forged iteration, I would suggest you make your own thread for it. I'd prefer this thread remain solely for discussion of my version of the Prestige Class, not yours, if you don't mind.

[khadgar567]

If you want help for your own self-forged iteration, I would suggest you make your own thread for it. I'd prefer this thread remain solely for discussion of my version of the Prestige Class, not yours, if you don't mind.
no problem

[Llama513]

Can't tell if that's a good thing or not...? Anyway, a wizard has to pay for copying spells to his book, so it's not that different. Might even have to pay for the scrolls if he can't find them. The cost covers the materials required for the application.

What's more important is that I haven't set the prices in stone yet. If you think lower prices would be more reasonable, I'll change it. I just thought that since you actually construct something into your body, you'd have to provide the materials, and good materials ain't cheap.

Its a good thing, it means that we get to make really awesome characters, and deciding on the cost of the schematics is probably going to be the toughest part of designing the class, but I think what you should do is look at the price of magic items and compare the ability granted by the schematic to magic items, and use that to get a range for cost, what I would do is cut the cost of the schematics in half, based on the magic item rarity it corresponds with, as you are building the schematic yourself, the gold cost being made up for in time. That or treat them like spells being copied into a wizards spell book, 50gp per spell level and 2 hours per spell level to build, the difficulty would be in deciding what spell level the schematic would be equivalent to

[Arkhios]

Its a good thing, it means that we get to make really awesome characters, and deciding on the cost of the schematics is probably going to be the toughest part of designing the class, but I think what you should do is look at the price of magic items and compare the ability granted by the schematic to magic items, and use that to get a range for cost, what I would do is cut the cost of the schematics in half, based on the magic item rarity it corresponds with, as you are building the schematic yourself, the gold cost being made up for in time. That or treat them like spells being copied into a wizards spell book, 50gp per spell level and 2 hours per spell level to build, the difficulty would be in deciding what spell level the schematic would be equivalent to

Not saying that I wouldn't change the prices, just felt I need to explain why I thought Schematics would cost something instead of being readily available :)

The core of the prestige class is that you gradually become more machine than a living creature (but still remain as one, more or less), hence the four levels for the big ones (battlefist, cranial inset, hydraulic legs, and changes to torso) which every self-forged get.

Then, you get to re-purpose those base features with the designs you get access to.

That's pretty much it.

Then, you can (but note: you don't have to) modify your designs with a bit of money and time invested in materials and construction.

Just like a wizard learns spells when they level up, and can learn more when the find, purchase, or exchange with other wizards' scrolls and spellbooks.
Edit: actually, just had a thought that maybe I should make it possible to learn more designs through study and research (though in that case you would only learn one design of your choice each time you level up).

Which leads me to a change a friend of mine proposed: instead of paying for schematics every time you replace one, you only pay once for the schematic and add it to a book (a spellbook suffices). But in return, changing a schematic and possibly even the designs takes longer, maybe full 24 hours (including long rest) for the designs, and a few hours for schematics (maybe as part of a long rest downtime activities). Point being that you're not stuck with your first choices for the rest of your career.

[Llama513]

I like that system, it makes sense, you store the other designs in your lab, and swap them out when needed

[Llama513]

So with the artificer class that just came out I was re-looking through the self forged, because who wouldn't want to play a self-forged artificer, and I noticed something horrifying, because the requirement is that you have to be proficient in Arcana, you could go self-forged as a barbarian or fighter, not sure if you meant to have this as a possibility but it is there, if you didn't mean for this to be an option I would add the requirement of being able to cast 2nd or 3rd level spells, if you are fine with having those options that's all cool. Just thought I would point that out

[Arkhios]

So with the artificer class that just came out I was re-looking through the self forged, because who wouldn't want to play a self-forged artificer, and I noticed something horrifying, because the requirement is that you have to be proficient in Arcana, you could go self-forged as a barbarian or fighter, not sure if you meant to have this as a possibility but it is there, if you didn't mean for this to be an option I would add the requirement of being able to cast 2nd or 3rd level spells, if you are fine with having those options that's all cool. Just thought I would point that out

Originally the Renegade Mastermaker was available to everyone who possessed the requisite skills and feats, and yes, it was my intention to keep it possible for everyone to become a self-forged.

As a side note, I was quite happy to realise that my self-forged could be applied to the recently released artificer with relative ease.

[Llama513]

It is incredible how well the artificer works for the self-forged, it does raise a question though, if you play as a alchemist artificer, would you be able to design your battle fist to launch your potions, possibly through a embedded weapon schematics or something like that

or possibly one to work with the thunder cannon, as it would make sense that an artificer would work there weapon into their self-forged design

[Arkhios]

It is incredible how well the artificer works for the self-forged, it does raise a question though, if you play as a alchemist artificer, would you be able to design your battle fist to launch your potions, possibly through a embedded weapon schematics or something like that

That's a marvellous idea! Yeah, I think I'll implement a design or schematic for that use!


or possibly one to work with the thunder cannon, as it would make sense that an artificer would work there weapon into their self-forged design
I'm inclined to keep Runic Arm-Cannon as it is, because Thunder Cannon is a two-handed weapon, while Arm-Cannon is usable with that hand alone. (It's probably a smaller but also a bit tuned-up version of thunder cannon). I might add a schematic that lets you use Thunder Cannon functions with the Arm-Cannon.

[Llama513]

That's a marvellous idea! Yeah, I think I'll implement a design or schematic for that use!

Awesome can't wait to see what you come up with


I'm inclined to keep Runic Arm-Cannon as it is, because Thunder Cannon is a two-handed weapon, while Arm-Cannon is usable with that hand alone. (It's probably a smaller but also a bit tuned-up version of thunder cannon). I might add a schematic that lets you use Thunder Cannon functions with the Arm-Cannon.
That is a better way to handle that, I think having it be a schematic works quite nicely, I do think that your explanation for having it as a schematic versus a straight change due to the size difference makes a lot of sense

[Arkhios]

Tentative designs and schematics in light of the Unearthed Arcana Artificer:
(I'm unable to refer to the pdf right now, so I'll probably have to rephrase things later)

Spring-Loaded Missile Launcher
You must have the Alchemist's Satchel to learn this design.
You modify your battlefist into a device which resembles a large hollow tube, with a spring mechanism inside. You build a compartment into the design that functions like your Alchemist's Satchel.
As an Action, you can load one of your damaging Alchemist's formulas from the compartment into the tube, and then, as part of the same action fire it out with a range of 60 feet.

Thunder Cannon Schematic
You must have the Gunsmith's Thunder Cannon to learn this schematic.
With this schematic you dismantle your Thunder Cannon and modify your Runic Arm-Cannon with the parts of the Thunder Cannon, so that you can later use your Thunder Cannon abilities with the Arm-Cannon instead. This modification reduces the weapon damage of your Thunder Cannon to 1d10 and its range to 100/300 feet.

[Llama513]

I love the alchemist option, however I don't see anyone using the thundercannon option as you divided the range by 5, I understand reducing the range but not by that much, I would suggest 100 short range or somewhere around there

[Arkhios]

I love the alchemist option, however I don't see anyone using the thundercannon option as you divided the range by 5, I understand reducing the range but not by that much, I would suggest 100 short range or somewhere around there

As I said, I couldn't refer to the pdf at the time I posted them. I was certain I made a great few oversightings there, one of which being the thunder cannon's range. I'll make the proper changes when I can.

[Llama513]

As I said, I couldn't refer to the pdf at the time I posted them. I was certain I made a great few oversightings there, one of which being the thunder cannon's range. I'll make the proper changes when I can.

I should have phrased my post better, I think you did a really good job for not having the pdf.

I am looking forward to seeing these new options develop, sorry about my initial post coming off a little rude, that was not my intention

[Arkhios]

I should have phrased my post better, I think you did a really good job for not having the pdf.

I am looking forward to seeing these new options develop, sorry about my initial post coming off a little rude, that was not my intention

Oh. Sorry if I sounded offended. It was just an honest remark.

Anyway, I managed a glance at the pdf, and figured that since the alchemist's formulas can already be thrown out to 30 feet, then maybe the missile-launcher could double that range, to make it feel a competitive option.

Likewise, looking at the thunder cannon's short range (150 feet), it seems to have a rather odd maximum range (500 feet), which is 50 feet farther than a ranged weapon should have, if you follow the normal rules.

I think that the suggested 100 feet short range, with a maximum range of 300 feet, is fine for the Arm-Cannon's schematic.

Although, I think I would reduce the basic damage to 1d10 instead of 2d6, since it's no longer a two-handed weapon.

[Llama513]

Oh. Sorry if I sounded offended. It was just an honest remark.

Anyway, I managed a glance at the pdf, and figured that since the alchemist's formulas can already be thrown out to 30 feet, then maybe the missile-launcher could double that range, to make it feel a competitive option.

Likewise, looking at the thunder cannon's short range (150 feet), it seems to have a rather odd maximum range (500 feet), which is 50 feet farther than a ranged weapon should have, if you follow the normal rules.

I think that the suggested 100 feet short range, with a maximum range of 300 feet, is fine for the Arm-Cannon's schematic.

Although, I think I would reduce the basic damage to 1d10 instead of 2d6, since it's no longer a two-handed weapon.

I think that should work fine

[Arkhios]

Made the changes in the tentative presentations in the earlier post.

[khadgar567]

nice now we have even more range for our bucks

[Llama513]

I think those should work fine, as they make sense, for what they do, the alchemist gets a buff to their range but not to the point that they are competing with the range of thunder cannon, and thunder cannon gets a little weaker, but is now one handed and you can't be disarmed of it, so the trade off is worth it.

I really like these options and am looking forward to using them with an alchemist.

[Arkhios]

nice now we have even more range for our bucks

Well, you lose 5 levels of base class progression (including increased damage) with going to prestige class so I think it's fair

[Llama513]

Well, you lose 5 levels of base class progression (including increased damage) with going to prestige class so I think it's fair
Taking into account the lose of damage, do you perhaps want to make your self forged levels count as artificer levels when you take one of the two schematics, my thought being you add half your self forged levels to your artificer levels for determining the damage/healing that you deal with your formulas or thunder cannon abilities, just a thought, I don't think that it really needs it, more of just putting the thought out there

[Arkhios]

Taking into account the lose of damage, do you perhaps want to make your self forged levels count as artificer levels when you take one of the two schematics, my thought being you add half your self forged levels to your artificer levels for determining the damage/healing that you deal with your formulas or thunder cannon abilities, just a thought, I don't think that it really needs it, more of just putting the thought out there

I'm inclined to say no. As a self-forged you focus into one specific direction of artificing, and thus you lose something in favor of something else.

In my personal opinion, levels in prestige class are no different from multiclassing and therefore anything you gain from it is in expense to other class levels.

[Llama513]

I'm inclined to say no. As a self-forged you focus into one specific direction of artificing, and thus you lose something in favor of something else.

In my personal opinion, levels in prestige class are no different from multiclassing and therefore anything you gain from it is in expense to other class levels.

That is perfectly understandable, the thought had just occurred to me so I thought I'd share it

[Arkhios]

That is perfectly understandable, the thought had just occurred to me so I thought I'd share it

Although... I just had an idea (which led to another):

First, might make both the satchel and thunder cannon modifications as schematics for Arm-Cannon. There's little point in having two pretty similar designs (missile launcher and arm-cannon).

Second, since schematics are commonly bought rather than learned, I think it could work if Alchemist and Gunsmith learned their respective schematics automatically when they choose the Arm-Cannon Design. That way, they'd be able to build the requisite schematic into their Arm-Cannons immediately instead of having to wait for too long.

[Llama513]

Although... I just had an idea (which led to another):

First, might make both the satchel and thunder cannon modifications as schematics for Arm-Cannon. There's little point in having two pretty similar designs (missile launcher and arm-cannon).

Second, since schematics are commonly bought rather than learned, I think it could work if Alchemist and Gunsmith learned their respective schematics automatically when they choose the Arm-Cannon Design. That way, they'd be able to build the requisite schematic into their Arm-Cannons immediately instead of having to wait for too long.

I think that should work quite well and makes sense, as it could be explaimed as them having been working on the schematic in the time before they got their Arm-Cannon

[Steel Mirror]

So I loved Eberron, loved artificers (my favorite 3.x class!), and love automail. I even really like the look of the new UA artificer. On top of all that, I've been thinking about design space for PrC's in 5E a bit recently, though not enough to have any good ideas for any myself, yet. This seems like a really good one, though, and right up about six of my alleys. :smallbiggrin:

I like the general look of it, though a couple things pop out at me. First, in the description of Designs, I think adding a single line at the beginning to the effect of "You begin at 1st level with a single design, and may add an additional one at 2nd, etc." would make it clearer. Maybe it's just me, but it took me a few tries reading the description for me to figure out what was going on. Second, it might help if each Design description explicitly states which slot it takes up. It's fairly obvious through context, but making it completely clear wouldn't hurt anything and is important since you can't have 2 designs working in the same slot at the same time. Along that line, it seems like there is a bit of lack of options in designs. You eventually get access to 4 designs, but you have 5 arm options followed by 1 each of leg, back, and cranial options. That means that after first level, where you choose from among the fist designs, you then have very few further options for customization, basically just taking each option as it becomes available.

I'm not sure it's worth it to separate designs and schematics from each other. It's not very clear to me what the difference between the two is, fluff-wise or even design-wise. Why are wings a schematic, for instance, but just attaching a sword to your battlefist requires a whole design? Perhaps you could roll designs and schematics into the same thing, which would simplify the class, give you more options to choose from when selecting designs, and possibly also add a feature somewhere that let you use two designs per body slot instead of one?

Those are my thoughts, anyway, and I'll look at the individual designs and schematics more closely to see how powerful they are. It's a cool class, and very thematic, and maybe I'm overlooking a lot with what I've typed already, so I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[Arkhios]

One pair of eyes (and brains) can see only so much, so thanks for bringing up those points.

The lack of options is mostly because I've been lazy and haven't yet come up with more options (any suggestions are welcome!)

My reasoning behind Designs vs Schematics was that you'd learn and apply the Designs more permanently (though you could change them between the ones you know), but you could swap out each applicable schematic as you please with more ease than changing designs, although they'd last indefinitely from the point you applied them, and that you could know any number of them, while you'd know only a few designs.

Yes, I believe it would be best to further clarify which designs/schematics are meant for which slots.

I think it would also make some sense to change the embedded weapon (and a few others) into a schematic instead of designs.

I'll consider combining the two categories however.
I already had an idea as to how could I implement each swap of design:

"When you finish a long rest, you may expend a spell slot to apply a number of designs equal to the level of the spell slot.

These designs last until you choose another set of designs, and the spell slot remains expended as long as you have those designs in use."