Rule lawyering... IRL (Aka OGL, and what can i use)

[Nolthestranger]

Hello GitP !

After years of DM'ing, i decided to give the world of video game crafting a go...
I'll expend on the how's and why's if you so desire, but for now my question is this :

Can i make a Tome of battle fighting style for my warrior class, as it's not, i believe, part of the OGL
If no :
How close to it can it be for it to be legal ?

Here is my mail (casual style, hoping for a casual and humain response) to WotC's customer service

Dear WoTC

After fifteen years of playing D&d, i moved on recently to computer scripting, and am in the process of creating a d20 system based loosely on the 3.5Ed, modified by years of DMing.

My question pertains to the Tome of battle, and it's combat manoeuvre added to the game, which unless i'm mistaken, is not OGL.
Can i make a very similar system of my own and call it martial disciplines ? Can i use the terms Stances, counters, and strikes ?
What proportion of the existing discipline can i use ?
Can i rename one and use the same mechanics ? Can i slightly adjust the mechanics and call it a day ?

Anyway, legal stuff...

If you can't answer such question, could you direct me to one who might ?

Thank you for your time

Noted the overly casual yet polite touch ?
Here is my (not so human and casual answer)

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast. You have receive this email in response to your request to use certain Wizards’ intellectual property.

Currently, we offer two ways the public can publish RPG products using our properties: the Dungeon Master’s Guild program (“DM Guild”) and the Open Gaming License (“OGL”). At this time, we are not considering licenses to use our Dungeons & Dragons rules that do not fit into the DM Guild or OGL.

If you want to create and sell content (adventures, monsters, backgrounds, etc.) using Wizards’ intellectual property, you may do so exclusively through the DM Guild website: www.DMsGuild.com or www.DungeonMastersGuild.com.

If you want to make a game or product incorporating Dungeons & Dragons rules sets and system reference documents (“SRD”), please review the OGL available online at:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/systems-reference-document-srd.

If you are looking for the SRD for one of the earlier editions of Dungeons & Dragons, our primary focus is to point customers to the newer fifth edition of the game; however, older edition resources can be found here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20.

If your request is not covered by the methods above, we are not extending the permissions on an individual basis or providing information on when the licenses may be expanded to other editions.

This could seem clear to you, but it doesn't really answer my "how close can it be" question..
Sooooo, ideas ?

NB : All my maneuvres would obviously be homebrewed, or made by homebrewers and used with permission.

[willoftheway]

I know it's not exactly an answer to the question, but have you considered the completely OGL Path of War, a pathfinder compatible spiritual successor to the Tome of Battle done by DSP?

I'm not one hundred percent certain on what you can actually use OGL content in outside of creating your own RPG supplements, but certainly it'd be easier to get ahold of permission to use something that's designed to be completely open from the ground up. And lots of the DSP guys frequent these forums.

[GilesTheCleric]

IANAL. In my opinion, you should err as far on the side of caution as you can. That means re-naming the system, using different mechanics (for the bits that aren't OGL), and quoting the OGL as often as you can. Take a look at DSP's Path of War to see how they handled their legalese.

If you're planning on publishing/ charging for anything, I think your thought process should probably focus more on "how much does this cost me in court/ lost development if I get hit by a DMCA/ C&D/ IP infringement/ whatever". WotC has a team of lawyers that they've proven they're not afraid to use, and if Hasbro cares to invest any effort whatsoever in a legal battle, I don't see any way a non-international company could hope to make any time worthwhile to be in court.

Edit: Tome of Battle'd. But see also this (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130324/00282322433/wizards-coast-kills-popular-kickstarter-project-based-questionable-trademark-claim.shtml) for an example of how far out of their way they go to protect their IP. It's probably necessary for them legally in order to keep their trademarks, but it sucks for everyone.

[Nolthestranger]

I own all pf path of war's publication, and am subscribed to any new, but didnt know it fell under the OGL.
The acronym DSP is unknown to me though !
But that is an idea..
Although they will probably be fairly closed with their product, it could help me understand how to make OGL allowed content too...

EDIT : Oh hell, i'm not trying to be run after by an rmy of lawyers, hence my research right now ^^
I'll get a demo running after i get some more scripting done, and i figure out my warrior class, if any of you ever want to give it some critical analysis or point out potential Lawyer trigger...

[Echch]

I'd say look at the differences between Path of War and Tome of Battle.
Every difference you find is something you need to think about on your own, while everything that is 1-to-1 is probably free game.
At least that's how I understand it.

DSP means Dream Scarred Press.

[John Longarrow]

It means you can't use anything in the ToB without running into copyright issues.

You CAN how ever make your own system that isn't a duplicate of what is already out there. You CAN, for instance, allow fighters to learn a set of feats (OGL) which allow them to do what you want.

This could look something like this;
Fist of Stone - You can ignore hardness / DR with unarmed strikes. Use - As a standard action you concentrate your focus and let loose a mighty blow that ignores the targets DR or Hardness. This strike, being mighty, also does +2d6 damage but lowers your AC by 2 until your next turn.

Rain of Blows - Prereq, Fighter 3 and Fist of Stone - As part of the full attack action all of your unarmed blows are treated as being Fist of Stone blows, how ever you do not take the normal -2 to AC.

Mastery of Stone - Prereq, Fighter 3 and Fist of Stone - You can now apply Fist of Stone to any melee attack made with a standard action.

This lets you do away with all the maneuver resets/maneuver readied stuff while keeping what are the effects of the maneuvers. For some, you may want to limit them to once every five rounds.

These would all be bonus feats that classes grant. Hence you can derive a set for your version of Barbarian (warblade), Cleric (Crusader), Ranger (Sword Sage, but add unarmed strike), and a new 'Monk' based off of fighter.

[Nolthestranger]

Wow, so many answers !

To clarify, i'm not mentionning the D20 world anywhere, i'm using a lot of modified rules ;
Basically, what i have that comes from D20 is :
Stats (str/dex/con..) their modifier and impact on mechanics
Bab for classes
The spell point variant system with 90% homebrewed spells

My Tob like were based on homebrew classes (kinda gestalt) with homebrewed maneuvres (not always from me.. meaning i'm gonna have to redo it all probably or find the authors)
So the whole stance/strike/counter is what i'd wanna use

Edit : I haven't even coded feats yet

[KillianHawkeye]

If you're looking for legal advice, contact a lawyer. This forum is not the appropriate place to find answers, and asking total strangers on the Internet is a pretty bad idea in general.

That being said, I wish you luck in your creative endeavors.

[willoftheway]

http://i.imgur.com/iFsH3Zf.jpg

A screenshot from my PDF copy of path of war expanded. All the mechanical stuff is OGL. Also all freely available on the d20pfsrd website. Again I'm not completely certain what this is usable for outside of ttrpg content creation. But it's worth looking into

[Nolthestranger]

While it is a fair point @KillianHawkeye, asking strangers allows me to pool knowledge and ideas together into a starter point.
As for Lawyering with a Lawyer, i'm doing this as a side project, and it'll be a 5 bucks game that 4 guys (family included) will ever buy, hence why i do it all alone. If it becomes too sketchy to use OGL, i'll have to be sad and invent my own system.


@willoftheway : I'll re read this OGL, i might have an older version in mind, fingers crossed for the application to video gaming though.

EDIT : Q: Is Open Game Content limited to just "the game mechanic"?

A: No. The definition of Open Game Content also provides for "any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content." You can use the Open Game License for any kind of material you wish to distribute using the terms of the License, including fiction, artwork, maps, computer software, etc.

One down

[KillianHawkeye]

While it is a fair point @KillianHawkeye, asking strangers allows me to pool knowledge and ideas together into a starter point.
As for Lawyering with a Lawyer, i'm doing this as a side project, and it'll be a 5 bucks game that 4 guys (family included) will ever buy, hence why i do it all alone. If it becomes too sketchy to use OGL, i'll have to be sad and invent my own system.

I realize that it's a small project, but giving legal advice is literally not allowed here. But I have to ask, if so few people will ever play it, why bother even charging for it?

[Nolthestranger]

Ahah, actually, to prove a point to my father, who think that at my age, time shouldn't be wasted on such hobbies, who don't further any life goals.

Litteraly not allowed ? what about advice, about how to's, thoughts and ideas ?

[KillianHawkeye]

Litteraly not allowed ? what about advice, about how to's, thoughts and ideas ?

Yes, literally. Giving "professional advice", such as that received from a doctor or lawyer, is against the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1).

If you need help (for example) navigating copyright law, you should get it from a verifiable lawyer because any advice you get from random people online is as likely to be dangerously wrong as it is helpful.

[Nolthestranger]

This is so obscure that I might as well create an entire game system from scratch.

It's hard defining what "core" mechanics like statistics or bab or AC could be used without having to print out a 3 page long document, and wotc's legal department refuses to comment on that..

Well seeing as I don't want to break the rules, and anyone else to break them with me, anyone with motivation, ideas or desire to follow or help with my project can contact me via pm, and I'll send you a mail !

Thanks for all those quick response, I hope I can find a stable legal ground.

[Buufreak]

Didn't see if anyone mentioned this yet, but contact the source. Talk with them, be it WotC, Paiso, or DSP, and ask what is and isn't okay. They can explain anything better than we can since its their own legal statement. Who knows, maybe they will green light you.

[Nifft]

You can steal ideas.

You can't steal text, due to copyright restrictions.

So if you want to duplicate and publish for profit an existing system, my advice would be to:

a) Re-write the system as a whole, from the ground up, just like the original WotC book wrote the system as a whole from the ground up.

b) Hire a lawyer to look at your write-up and the original WotC book to ensure there is no ground for copyright infringement.

Step (a) takes time, and step (b) takes money, but you're publishing for profit so you should expect to expend both.

[lylsyly]

Not to tread on the OPs toes but ...

I have been wondering if the Stat Block format is part of OGL ... I mean if I throw together a little PDF and throw it out there for free is it okay to use the Stat block Format? What if I was charging for the PDF in question?

[Ashtagon]

The stat block format as presented in the srd is covered by the ogl and can be used freely. Stat block formats in later books may or may not be covered by a separate legal concept called trade dress. Consult a lawyer for specifics.

[Ualaa]

The stuff that the OGL lets you freely use, is conditional upon including the OGL in your product.

If you're looking to do your own thing.
And to not include a copy of the OGL within your work.
Things that the OGL lets you use, as a derivative of the d20 system are probably off limits.

If you're willing to include the OGL within your work.
And to make your game based off of d20.
You can go your own creative direction and sell your content.
The whole point of the OGL was to let others create their own content for use with the d20 system, which in turn both promotes the d20 system and likely generates some revenue for WotC if your customers purchase anything like a PHB, DMG, MM, etc.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please do not ask for or give legal advice on this forum.