[Discussion] Modern DAY Artificing

[Zakier]

While many systems deal with both technology and magic in modern world's, it's rare to find a system that deals with a world that is both magically AND technologically advanced together.

General speakimg. Most lore consist of one or the other being prevalent first and the effects of the latter on the former.

These also generally (with the exception of shadowrun and rifts) consist of magic being the latter and having to keep it hidden from society.

While an interesting concept full of economical upheaval and interesting story and strife. It's been played to death and beyond.


What about a setting where magic and technology grew along with eachother.

In this assumed setting, Magic is not as predictable as our normal vancian systems. It doesn't use pregenerated spells. It's far more spontaneous and flexible allowing for endless possibilities. However not everyone can use magic and it's expensive.

Technology starts and grows as it does in our RL world. Following the line of the firearm in that it is cheaper and easier to both work with and use.

Assuming these two systems grown in conjunction with each other, rather than at odds with each other.

How would this effect the growth of both? What changes in technology as we see it today would there be if magic played a part in its creation and potential?

How do basic things like electricity and medicine benefit from the ability to create miniature ever burning fires inside engines and binding magical effects into things like diet pills or anesthetics?

How would society itself evolve I'd magic played as much a part openly as technology did from the very beginning?

[Troacctid]

This has been explored plenty of times. Off the top of my head, Kaladesh and The Legend of Korra are good examples.

[Zakier]

Legend of Korra yes but the level of magic while interesting is not as powerful as even D20 vancian magic.

It's magic was all pushing and pulling. And only effected the 4 elements.

[Milo v3]

You'd get things like:

Houses were each wall is enchanted with prestidigitation so they can clean themselves, change colour, and alter the houses temperature.
Spaceships that travel through shadow walk.
Genetic experiments that add things like bears endurance and sorcery to offspring.
Phones that have dancing lights apps allowing the phone's owner to put lights wherever.
Clothes and furniture enchanted with mending so they auto-repair.
Clothes enchanted with endure elements so it's appropriate in any weather
Houses enchanted with hold portal or arcane lock for better security.
Fast food places use create food and drink + prestidigitation items to create their food so fast with any taste they desire.
Summon Monster 1 item as a cheap pet dog/pony.
Elementals and undead as clean energy
Offices and factories enchanted with Unseen Servants.
Phones, televisions and computers enchanted with comprehend languages to facilitate communication.
Sniper Rifle's with 1/Day Truestrike.
Prestidigitation Tattoo that allows you to clean yourself and change your hair/skin/eye colour at-will.
Disguise Self cosmetics.
Silent Image as perfectly detailed computer monitors.
Enchanted cars so they go faster.
Enchanted footpaths so people walk faster.
Planes enchanted with Featherfall.

[Rizban]

Sorry, Milo v3, but I have to disagree with you on a few points:

Summon Monster 1 item as a cheap pet dog/pony.SRD rules have these priced way higher than normal animals. If anything, they'd be a luxury item, like a robot dog in the real world, not a cheap alternative.


Elementals and undead as clean energyThis may just be the first time I've ever heard of a zombie being referred to as "clean"... :smalltongue:


Silent Image as perfectly detailed computer monitors.But it's only as good as the manufacturer's imagination. I think this is one area where tech would likely always beat magic.

[Nifft]

But it's only as good as the manufacturer's imagination. I think this is one area where tech would likely always beat magic.

Perhaps theater could compete well with movies if the props were made by illusionists with great imaginations.

[Milo v3]

Sorry, Milo v3, but I have to disagree with you on a few points:SRD rules have these priced way higher than normal animals. If anything, they'd be a luxury item, like a robot dog in the real world, not a cheap alternative.
Could be cheaper than stables, feeding and training costs, fact the pony wont ever age or die or get sick, etc. After a certain amount of time infinite use items are cheaper. Though in my PFModern campaign the price issue was solved by using Automatic Bonus Progression and having wealth abstracted to a degree so people can be expected to have a handful of low-level non-combat items, or by using a magical equivelent to the Guns Everywhere Rule making magic items tonnes tonnes cheaper.


This may just be the first time I've ever heard of a zombie being referred to as "clean"... :smalltongue:
Who would ever use zombies? Skeletons are so much cooler. :smalltongue:


But it's only as good as the manufacturer's imagination. I think this is one area where tech would likely always beat magic.
Except that's not true of simple image, you don't get a spot check to notice low resolution or missing details, so there's no reason why that would be true of these silent images. Obviously it can only display information sent to it by the program, but the graphics program used would probably use something like detect thoughts or silent image to create the image in the first place.

[Jack_Simth]

What about a setting where magic and technology grew along with eachother.

In this assumed setting, Magic is not as predictable as our normal vancian systems. It doesn't use pregenerated spells. It's far more spontaneous and flexible allowing for endless possibilities. However not everyone can use magic and it's expensive.

Technology starts and grows as it does in our RL world. Following the line of the firearm in that it is cheaper and easier to both work with and use.

Assuming these two systems grown in conjunction with each other, rather than at odds with each other.

How would this effect the growth of both? What changes in technology as we see it today would there be if magic played a part in its creation and potential?

How do basic things like electricity and medicine benefit from the ability to create miniature ever burning fires inside engines and binding magical effects into things like diet pills or anesthetics?

How would society itself evolve I'd magic played as much a part openly as technology did from the very beginning?

Let's see with the assumption of:
Magic: Expensive, difficult to predict, not everyone can make magic.
Tech: Mostly operates like it does IRL.

Magic would be mostly relegated to specialists of various sorts - artists would use it a lot, people who can use it might choose to get themselves trained in it (in roughly the same proportions that people today might play the piano, practice martial arts, or go game hunting).

Where it would most certainly NOT be used:
1) Medicine: If it's not reasonably predictable, the FDA is going to have none of it. If graduates of a particular class can ALWAYS cure a particular disease, then they'll have scholarships and get very good pay doing it. If they can usually cure a particular disease (magic is not reliable is one of the assumptions) then may consider it on a statistical level if it's better than other options. If the attempt occasionally produces a monster that goes on a murderous rampage, NO!!!! And your assumptions are based on magic being less predictable, so it'd be competing with modern medicine... so no, not going to be used here. Expense doesn't matter here, but the reliability is a problem.
2) Manufacture: Ditto, for the same reason. If the enchanted conveyor belt operates like a real conveyor belt in terms of controllability and reliability, and is less expensive than a standard conveyor belt, then it will be used in place of the standard conveyor belt... but if it's "not as predictable as our normal vancian systems" and is expensive, then it won't. Both expense and reliability are the big factors.
3) Personal energy production. If you can buy 1,000 tanks of gas for the same expense needed to upgrade your car to run on magic instead, and you would normally fill your car up once a week, it'll be a little over 19 years before you hit break even. You will most likely lose your car to a wreck before then, or want to move on to the new model just because there's better stuff out there now and the seats are worn. Even better: Because gas is purchased over time, but hardware mostly has to be purchased outright, you could instead invest in a good mutual fund which you withdraw from periodically to pay for gas and make a profit. It's simply not worth it. If it randomly leaves you stranded for a few hours, it's REALLY not worth it.
4) Other things. Anything that has to be reliably the same or that needs to be inexpensive, won't be done via magic unless the caster is doing it personally for the caster's own use.

Where it might be used:
Artwork and other luxury items, especially one-of-a-kind luxury items (basically, handcrafted goods' current niche).
Insurance (if the applications that the Diviner puts to his right are 5% likely to have a covered claim within a year, and the ones that the Diviner puts to his left are 1% likely to have a covered claim within a year, then the Diviner is VERY VALUABLE to the insurance company, and they can prove exactly how valuable, if he can sort through them at the rate of a few hundred a day).
Personal use. Those capable of making the magic will likely use it for themselves, simply because FOR THEM it's not expensive, and they can just try again if it doesn't work quite right.

So... no. Wouldn't much affect the day-to-day life of most people.

[Milo v3]

SNIP
This is the 3.5e board though, so probably is reliable as 3.5e vancian magic. Even a single command word remove disease wondrous item would make a hospital immensely more effective.

[Jack_Simth]

This is the 3.5e board though, so probably is reliable as 3.5e vancian magic. Even a single command word remove disease wondrous item would make a hospital immensely more effective.

Yes, a "Bed of Wellness (Remove Disease)" from the Stronghold Builder's Guide that had a market price the same as 300 pounds of gold would be a stupidly good buy for a hospital... if it's reasonably reliable without crazy side-effects. That's not what the OP specified, though, so it's not what I based my analysis on. The OP said "Magic is not as predictable as our normal vancian systems" for this exercise.

[Milo v3]

That's not what the OP specified, though, so it's not what I based my analysis on. The OP said "Magic is not as predictable as our normal vancian systems" for this exercise.

Missed that detail. Odd that he put the thread here then.

[Zakier]

Right, though when I said in the OP that magic was less predictable than the current vancian system what I meant was that instead of spells as we see them, fireball, remove curse, etc. Spells work reliably by skilled practitioners, don't require costly material components and a mage can come up with any spell.

Besides that it feels like in your answer you are still applying magic to current society, rather than th I nuking through the effects it would have as society grows. We may end up with many similar things but magic from the dark ages up would fundamentally change everything we know about the world and the discussion is on what kind of changes you think that would entail economically.

[Zakier]

Threads based on d20 systems as well. But either vancian system or as I described above work. Thought the topic would be interesting.

D20 modern while one of the few sources with modern world technology levels mixed with open magic. Still applies magic to our current world. Rather than building a new world based on the changes magic enherantly causes by its existance.

As a good example. The Age of discovery as we know it may not exist at all with the application of teleportation.

The inquisition and the crusades wouldn't have happened as religions themselves used magic of the age.

[Rizban]

Looking at it from a Real World EarthTM perspective, you could look at it through a prism of different cultures. it isn't that difficult to see how it might work if you simply assume all real-world beliefs are true.

The US is an all-tech empire where magic has died out or been stamped out entirely. There's no room for anything that isn't hard science beyond the few clerics left in the various religious groups, and most of them don't have enough "true faith" left in the supernatural to actually use divine magic.

China, however, despite rapid, massive industrialization, hasn't shed its traditional arcane practices. True, the general populace doesn't use magic day to day, but it still exists. Traditional Chinese medicine doesn't work on scientific principals so much as on magic. Sometimes that poultice can cure cancer, despite having no scientific basis for it, and sometimes it just makes you itchy. Ancient monasteries practice ancient arts with real effects. The entire culture expects there to be a supernatural component to life, and the magic actually is there.

In the Middle East, despite the overwhelming influence of the primary religion there, it has absorbed many of the pagan beliefs of the peoples it has influenced. Djinn and other beings still flit about, and sometimes a lucky person still has his 3 wishes granted.

In Africa, among the Maasai people, witchdoctors still commune with the spirits on the daily basis and dispense real, functional curses and blessings, and make working magical charms. When Ol Doinyo Lengai erupts, it really is the hand of their god moving the earth.


Threads based on d20 systems as well. But either vancian system or as I described above work. Thought the topic would be interesting.

D20 modern while one of the few sources with modern world technology levels mixed with open magic. Still applies magic to our current world. Rather than building a new world based on the changes magic enherantly causes by its existance.

As a good example. The Age of discovery as we know it may not exist at all with the application of teleportation.

The inquisition and the crusades wouldn't have happened as religions themselves used magic of the age.I don't think active magic would really have changed that much. Those in power would have still collected power. Adding magic missile to your repertoire next to your crossbow doesn't shift things all that much. Considering how rare magic would likely be, having the odd spellcaster or three in an army wouldn't be all that different from adding another cannon.

[Jack_Simth]

Right, though when I said in the OP that magic was less predictable than the current vancian system what I meant was that instead of spells as we see them, fireball, remove curse, etc. Spells work reliably by skilled practitioners, don't require costly material components and a mage can come up with any spell.

Besides that it feels like in your answer you are still applying magic to current society, rather than th I nuking through the effects it would have as society grows. We may end up with many similar things but magic from the dark ages up would fundamentally change everything we know about the world and the discussion is on what kind of changes you think that would entail economically.
"How reproducible" (manufacturable) and "how reliable" are very key questions. Seriously. The bow & arrow fell by the wayside due to firearms - not because the firearms of the day were better weapons than the bow & arrow. A good archer could get better accuracy and a better rate of fire than could a good marksman, at least with early firearms. The two big reasons firearms 'won':
Almost anyone could be OK using a firearm with a few days' training, while being at the same level with a bow & arrow took a lot longer.
Firearms were, long-term, cheaper than bows & arrows. Firearms are much easier to further with new techniques, which then has the benefits to the marksman buying them. Production advances for bows & arrows are much more limited, and require much more training to use effectively.

If I can build a magical device that spits out single-use potion of cure disease 100 times/day, all 100 of those potions will cleanse the imbiber of all diseases, there's no side effects, and the magical device lasts essentially forever... then yes, that'll change society meaningfully and in ways not easy to predict (the 60's movement wouldn't have fizzled out so quickly if STD's weren't a thing or if a permanent solution to withdraw cost $5), just like any other interesting technology does (because that's what it is at that point). With this setup, magic is the gun, not the bow.

On the other hand, if that same magical device spitting out 100 potions a day, with 50 of those potions curing the imbiber, forty of them doing nothing, nine of them killing the imbiber, and one of them turning the imbiber into a monster who kills on average a few dozen before being put down, with no way to predict which will be which... sane rulers won't permit their use. They'll show up on the black market for the desperate... just like hard drugs. Just like hard drugs. Which is about the role they'd fill in society. Little real effect, regardless of when in the mix it comes about. Magic is the bow.

If casting 'totally safe', but is highly individual, the question becomes 'how much'? If, say, one in a million is capable of learning how to cure Coronary Artery Disease (600,000 deaths in the US every year, according to a random website (http://www.healthline.com/health/top-10-deadliest-diseases)), and of those with the capacity, it gets recognized and trained in maybe one in a hundred... there's going to be three people in the US that can do it... assuming suitable trainers exist. If it takes each an hour to cast the spell (including various associated necessities), and they work for 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, doing nothing else... those three people are only going to prevent about 11,262 deaths each year. Significant, but no more so than a few pop stars who advocate healthy lifestyles. Little real effect, regardless of when in the mix it comes about. Magic is the bow.

Depending on how Individual magic is, it would likely end up being very close to the same as what we have. Reproducibility is one of the big keys to modern tech's 'competitive edge' and thus prevalence - and always has been (Rome ruled as long as it did in great part due to roads - reproducible tech; the British Empire ruled largely via ships and troops with guns; and so on). That which isn't reproducible beyond a single individual is going to have about as much effect on society as individual performers or statesmen. Not much, usually.

[InvisibleBison]

What changes in technology as we see it today would there be if magic played a part in its creation and potential?

This is largely beyond my ability to imagine, but I can tell you one thing: It wouldn't be simply modern-day Earth with some things being replaced by magic. With the two systems being developed alongside one another for tens of thousands of years, there's no predicting what sort of random coincidence would spring up.


How would society itself evolve I'd magic played as much a part openly as technology did from the very beginning?

Well, the existence of magic might speed up technological development. Magic can do a wide variety of useful stuff, but it's rare and unreliable, so demand always exceeds supply. Thus, people who could figure out how to replicate various spells using non-magical means would be greatly rewarded for their insight.

Alternatively, the existence of magic might retard technological development. Magic is right there and it works. It's rare and unreliable, sure, but that just means it's restricted to the rich and powerful. Thus, any attempt to develop non-magical alternatives is an attack on the base of the existing elite's power, and would be nipped in the bud. Would such a society be stable in the long run? Maybe; it depends on how good of an ideological justification the elites can come up with, and on how much military power a monopoly on magic gives them.

Or maybe both of these scenarios are true! Magical abilities can show up anywhere, so the elites can't maintain a monopoly on them. Instead, they rely on technology, which is less powerful but more effective, and much easier to keep out of the hands of the peasants.

[Mato]

While many systems deal with both technology and magic in modern world's, it's rare to find a system that deals with a world that is both magically AND technologically advanced together.You should look into the Eberron campaign setting for D&D, it's exactly what you're looking for.

[Rizban]

You should look into the Eberron campaign setting for D&D, it's exactly what you're looking for.

Eberron is a step in the right direction. It's still arguably pseudo-medieval fantasy or at least renaissance. It's not truly a modern setting.

[Milo v3]

You should look into the Eberron campaign setting for D&D, it's exactly what you're looking for.

Eberron is just steampunk with magic paint.

[Bohandas]

You should look into the Eberron campaign setting for D&D, it's exactly what you're looking for.

Discworld and Incarnations of Immortality too. Even more so.

[Bohandas]

Looking at it from a Real World EarthTM perspective, you could look at it through a prism of different cultures. it isn't that difficult to see how it might work if you simply assume all real-world beliefs are true.

The US is an all-tech empire where magic has died out or been stamped out entirely. There's no room for anything that isn't hard science

That's a false dichotomy. A hard science devotee in a land where magic is real would look like Egon Spengler or Ivo Shandor

[Rizban]

That's a false dichotomy. A hard science devotee in a land where magic is real would look like Egon Spengler or Ivo ShandorThat is very true! I had not forgotten about it, but look at the wider Ghostbusters franchise. All the people around Egon think he's nuts, even some of his own teammates.

I was pointing out the large, sweeping generalities of the various cultures as they related to this idea. There's always going to be an exception or four (in a standard adventuring party). The last book in the Narnia series has a great example in the other direction of that in the dwarves that are absolutely convinced they're sitting in a barn in Narnia and refuse to accept otherwise, despite clearly being in an open field in the afterlife.

[Mato]

Eberron is a step in the right direction. It's still arguably pseudo-medieval fantasy or at least renaissance. It's not truly a modern setting.It is if you thought about it.

Eberron has vehicles, mechs, train, planes, and Star Trek transporters capable of visiting a nearby Galaxy instantly so it has zero need to concern for a space program or any materials that we developed to support such. Likewise take the progression of the radio to TV to console gaming's fascination with increasing resolution or the film altering spectacle of CGI, Eberron simply started with illusions that can display whatever the caster imagines as detailed as the human eye is capable of seeing so there is no need to invent any of that either. You don't need to optimize a gas engine or even deal with the laws of thermodynamics if you can simply create energy out of thin air or bind an elemental to do the job for you.

Impressed at how you can talk to your phone or Amazon's newest product the Echo can handle simply commends? Eberron has a range of fully functional AIs. Messages can be instantly sent by line or magic so it's a little hard to start up a cell phone market, specially when items of prestidigitation can already mimic gaming apps without needing any knowledge of software programming. Selective breeding? Eberron has that for animals and magic can instantly grow fully matured crops in a matter of seconds so they can go though thousands of planet generations for everyone one we do. Are you worried a robot may replace you are your job? I imagine hundreds of years ago that's what the living natives of Karrnathi thought about all those zombie factory workers, but these days even their machines have intelligent scores and demand increased pay which we still can't even imagine happening.

Even new and imaginary technology in the here and now exists in Eberron. Flexible materials that instantly harden for protection, lighter than air compounds, powered armor, cure for any disease, 100% accurate weather prediction, and so on. They even have colleges and just try to imagine the textbooks costs in those. In Eberron they have a spell called Scholar's Touch that allows them to instantaneously read, cover-to-cover, an entire text book. Buying a digitally stored book is cheaper in our world because it skips printing costs, but who the heck would want a version of a book they actually have to sit down and read? Paperback to them is in every way superior to any other means of storage which also means there is no reason to invent any information storing device, through they already did anyway because knowledge requires skill points.

And just like modern life, the world isn't unified under one nation but a disorganized mess. Some of them are totalitarian racial supremacists, others make you want to have a weapon in order to ensure your own personal safety. They invented highly detailed self-drawing maps faster than they could fully explore their world or resolve border disputes. If you want something you absolutely need money to make it happen and the wealth and resource divide between the classes is even more apparent in Eberron than a any millennials' complaint about the 1%ers (one of the cities even has a 40% tax rate!).

[Rizban]

Technologically speaking, sure, Eberron has many of the modern conveniences that we have. I still wouldn't count it as truly modern. It's still very much a late medieval or early renaissance setting as far as culture and politics go. Yes, they have made fantastic technomagical progress, but culturally, they're only just a small step beyond agrarian feudalism. On Eberron, the Arcano-industrial Revolution happened about 1,000 years earlier than it did on Earth.

[unseenmage]

Does magic still break physics? If yes then a post scarcity society is inevitable.

That's really the only answer here. And it is also why high tech and high magic rarely are found together. Post scarcity stories can be pretty dull.

That and the phenomenon where an advanced enough science becomes pseudo magical and vice versa.
Eventually if the two are equal then they do the same things at the same time for the same purpose.
Was it magic or was it tech? Coin flip decides the answer.

[Zakier]

Right so while it may appear equal to or more advanced in many areas they basically just passed the era socially of an equivalent to the civil war at best. Warforged (slaves) just gained freedom but are still considered second class.

Society is still ran by great houses and big business is only just starting with cannith manufacturing.

The technology boom happened out of order but I suspect from here to minimize the impact of depleting deposits of Dragon shards society and cannith will begin r&d on nonew magical or cheaper alternatives. Especially as the price in dragonshards increase as supplies diminish.


Add onto that gnomes are the only ones who bind elementals and won't share that secret with society readily.

[Bohandas]

This topic reminds me of an observation which I had in regard to the writings of H.P.Lovecraft, which is that a lot of his stories' aesthetic and premise wouldn't work in the modern world because there's no such thing as a rare book anymore (as an excercise, see how long it takes you to pull up an english copy of the Zohar, or the Bardo Thodol, or the Gospel of Judas, or the Book of Coming Forth by Day). But it goes beyond that, if its powers workedThe Necronomicon would be well known, and not just in crackpot conspiracy theorist or new age circles either. Even if a large number of isolated incidents didn't make people take notice, sooner or later there would eventually be a situation like in Fistful of Boomstick or Scary Movie 3 where someone reads an incantation on the air.

[khadgar567]

As far as i know we have better mass destruction weapons more hectic school programs( every one learns base wizard catnrips) and ı hope idiots of the cost make kaladesh a real setting

[Ashtagon]

While many systems deal with both technology and magic in modern world's, it's rare to find a system that deals with a world that is both magically AND technologically advanced together.

General speakimg. Most lore consist of one or the other being prevalent first and the effects of the latter on the former.

These also generally (with the exception of shadowrun and rifts) consist of magic being the latter and having to keep it hidden from society.

While an interesting concept full of economical upheaval and interesting story and strife. It's been played to death and beyond.


What about a setting where magic and technology grew along with eachother.

In this assumed setting, Magic is not as predictable as our normal vancian systems. It doesn't use pregenerated spells. It's far more spontaneous and flexible allowing for endless possibilities. However not everyone can use magic and it's expensive.

Technology starts and grows as it does in our RL world. Following the line of the firearm in that it is cheaper and easier to both work with and use.

Assuming these two systems grown in conjunction with each other, rather than at odds with each other.

How would this effect the growth of both? What changes in technology as we see it today would there be if magic played a part in its creation and potential?

How do basic things like electricity and medicine benefit from the ability to create miniature ever burning fires inside engines and binding magical effects into things like diet pills or anesthetics?

How would society itself evolve I'd magic played as much a part openly as technology did from the very beginning?

Your premise is so open-ended that a better question would be "what do you want to be the result?" What's your planned setting, and what sort of stories do you want to tell in it?

[Bohandas]

A thought. Goat's blood pumped into the house as a utility; to power magic thingies in place of electricity

[Nifft]

A thought. Goat's blood pumped into the house as a utility; to power magic thingies in place of electricity

Goat's Arcane Sanguine.

"Yes, the stove is powered by GAS."

The modern world is always one step ahead.

[Bohandas]

A couple of ideas:

*Shrink item would be really useful for miniaturization, both of electronics and of mechanical components

*A Decanter of Endless Water could not only provide the basis for a plumbing system, but could also be used to power a waterwheel. And unlike a regular waterwheel it wouldn't need to be fixed in place. You could even power a vehicle with it if you wanted to

[Jack_Simth]

*A Decanter of Endless Water could not only provide the basis for a plumbing system, but could also be used to power a waterwheel. And unlike a regular waterwheel it wouldn't need to be fixed in place. You could even power a vehicle with it if you wanted toYou wouldn't want a waterwheel for a Decanter; it specifically creates pressure, so you want something that can make us of that pressure effectively. A turbine, or maybe an odd variation of a combustion engine which instead of igniting gas and air to push the cylinders, simply does some valve control to determine which one is getting filled from the decanter to push out the cylinder, and which onces are draining. It'd pretty much be a two-stroke motor that way. That's a 9k gp item, though. What does that work out to in modern currency?

In D&D coins, that's 180 pounds of gold. Current market price of that much gold is something like 3 million USD - assuming, of course, that the price of gold is the correct conversion from the D&D economy to a modern-ish economy. Would you spend three million on your car?

Perhaps a different conversion... 9k wealth is basically all of an 8th level NPC's wealth (DMG page 127, NPC gear value table in the lower-right corner). We could, perhaps, try to translate betwen NPC level percentages and wealth percentiles... if that's the case, then... using a random generator (https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/demographics/) to make a city with pop 60000 yielded (when I tried it) 124 NPC's of level 8 and up of that 60,000. That's the top 0.2% who have the capacity to own such a thing... but it's 'almost all that they have' for many of those, and few will spend everything they have on their car. If, instead, we pick an NPC gear level where that 9k is 50% or less of the NPC's wealth, then we're looking at level 11 and up - 66 of the random generated city with 60,000, or the top 0.1% who might reasonably have such a thing. Per this wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence_in_the_United_States), includes "The top 0.12% had incomes exceeding $1,600,000 annually" in a 2005 survey. That was 11 years ago, and inflation is a thing, so that's probably a $2,000,000 annual income now, and this decanter... is 50% of your WEALTH, not your income. The decanter car would be the equivalent of having a fifty or hundred million dollar home if I use that paradigm. How many people drive cars that expensive?

If you can't apply modern manufacturing methods to magic items and bypass the costs (aka, 'Wish farming'), this sort of thing isn't going to happen in mass. Sure, a couple of rich folks might set a few up for the novelty or the claim of driving with completely clean energy.... but they're going to be decidedly rare because this is CRAZY EXPENSIVE, depending on how you calculate it.

[Rizban]

Since this is a modern setting, I took a look at my d20 Modern books. Now, I'm going with your assumption of 8th-level character and assume that basic manufacturing exists and applies to magic items for the sake of simplicity.

Establishing Wealth of an Appropriate d20 Modern Character
In d20M, an 8th-level character should have around a +9 Wealth Bonus. For those who don't know how Wealth works in d20 Modern, I'll explain.
In d20M, you don't keep track of dollars. Instead, you have a Wealth Bonus that represents your money supply, general income sources (job, investments, etc.), and credit line/ability to get a loan. To buy an item, you make a Wealth Check (d20+bonuses) against a set purchase DC. You may take 10 or 20 on this check
If you succeed, you get the item. If the item is very expensive, or you get a bad roll, your Wealth Bonus goes down, (probably because you're now making loan payments in the background). Your Wealth decreases if the Purchase DC is 15 or higher and/or if the Purchase DC is higher than your Wealth Bonus (and the two stack).

+8 Wealth is considered Average Middle Class, according to the d20M Core Rulebook.
Table 7-1 in that books converts Wealth to Dollar amounts for us, which I will be using to establish real prices for the items.
The character in question can easily purchase an item of up to DC8 or $70 without thinking twice. It's just a normal expense and has zero effect on his money.
Taking 10 on a Wealth Check to make a purchase lets him purchase up to DC18 or $1,200. This reduces his Wealth by 2, so it's a significant investment but still nothing to really think too much about.
By taking 20, he could afford up to DC 28 or $20,000. However, this reduces his Wealth by 2d6+1, which can potentially bankrupt the character for the foreseeable future.

Establishing a Pricing Estimate of a Decanter of Endless Water in d20 Modern
Since decanters of endless water aren't actually printed in a d20M supplement, we're going to have to approximate their value. I'll look at 3.5 PC wealth by level to determine its Purchase DC in d20M.

An 8th-level PC in D&D 3.5 has an expected Wealth by Level of 27,000gp. A decanter of endless water is 9,000gp or exactly 1/3 of the character's entire wealth.

An 8th-level PC in d20M has a Wealth Bonus of +9, giving him a purchase range up to DC 29, albeit with a big hit to his Wealth. Since we're planning to spend only 1/3 of his wealth rather than all of it, the DC can't be higher than 24 (15 points higher than his Wealth), as that only incurs a 1d6+1 penalty to wealth rather than the max 2d6+1.

Since the decanter is a magic item that costs a significant amount, it must be above DC 15.
Since we know it must be a significant investment, it must be have a DC at least 11 higher than his Wealth, so a miminum of 20.
Since it's not enough to bankrupt a 9th-level PC, it must be no more than DC 24.
That gives us a range of $2,000 to $6,500. Still a pretty big range but a good starting point.

Finalizing the Pricing of the Decanter
Looking back to the WBL charts in the 3.5 DMG, a 5th-level PC is expected to have exactly 9,000gp, which happens to be the exact price of our magic decanter.
A 5th-level PC in d20M is expected to have +8 Wealth.

So, we're looking for a Purchase DC in our established DC 20 to 24 range than can bankrupt a 5th-level PC but not a 9th-level one. The only Purchase DC that fits that requirement is DC 24.

DC 24 is exactly 15 points higher than our +9 bonus, making it a 1d6+1 Wealth loss for the 8th-level character.
It's also 16 points higher than the +8 bonus, making it a 2d6+1 Wealth loss for the 5th-level character.

As such, a decanter of endless water has a Purchase DC 24, the max end of our estimated range. This converts to $6,500.

Of course, this only gives you the decanter itself, which in this thought experiment is like purchasing the engine without the truck.

Edit: Now, new consumer vehicle engines tend to run between $1,500 and $4,000, but a decanter of endless water is magical, harder to manufacture, and has other beneficial uses besides being an engine. The cost to create it, the limited supply, and the demand in multiple markets leads me to believe that $6,500 is a pretty accurate price given the assumptions we've made previously.

[Bohandas]

You wouldn't want a waterwheel for a Decanter; it specifically creates pressure, so you want something that can make us of that pressure effectively. A turbine, or maybe an odd variation of a combustion engine which instead of igniting gas and air to push the cylinders, simply does some valve control to determine which one is getting filled from the decanter to push out the cylinder, and which onces are draining. It'd pretty much be a two-stroke motor that way. That's a 9k gp item, though. What does that work out to in modern currency?

In D&D coins, that's 180 pounds of gold. Current market price of that much gold is something like 3 million USD - assuming, of course, that the price of gold is the correct conversion from the D&D economy to a modern-ish economy. Would you spend three million on your car?

Perhaps a different conversion... 9k wealth is basically all of an 8th level NPC's wealth (DMG page 127, NPC gear value table in the lower-right corner). We could, perhaps, try to translate betwen NPC level percentages and wealth percentiles... if that's the case, then... using a random generator (https://donjon.bin.sh/d20/demographics/) to make a city with pop 60000 yielded (when I tried it) 124 NPC's of level 8 and up of that 60,000. That's the top 0.2% who have the capacity to own such a thing... but it's 'almost all that they have' for many of those, and few will spend everything they have on their car. If, instead, we pick an NPC gear level where that 9k is 50% or less of the NPC's wealth, then we're looking at level 11 and up - 66 of the random generated city with 60,000, or the top 0.1% who might reasonably have such a thing. Per this wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affluence_in_the_United_States), includes "The top 0.12% had incomes exceeding $1,600,000 annually" in a 2005 survey. That was 11 years ago, and inflation is a thing, so that's probably a $2,000,000 annual income now, and this decanter... is 50% of your WEALTH, not your income. The decanter car would be the equivalent of having a fifty or hundred million dollar home if I use that paradigm. How many people drive cars that expensive?

If you can't apply modern manufacturing methods to magic items and bypass the costs (aka, 'Wish farming'), this sort of thing isn't going to happen in mass. Sure, a couple of rich folks might set a few up for the novelty or the claim of driving with completely clean energy.... but they're going to be decidedly rare because this is CRAZY EXPENSIVE, depending on how you calculate it.

What about in a military vehicle? Those are always absurdly expensive anyway.

EDIT:
Plus, IIRC that's the etymology of the word "tank" anyway

[Jack_Simth]

What about in a military vehicle? Those are always absurdly expensive anyway.They're absurdly expensive, but that's usually because they have to be given the requirements they have to meet, that they almost always have to be purchased new, and that much of the mass manufacture that makes modern cars as inexpensive as they are doesn't apply quite as much when you really only have the one customer ordering them (although that one customer is ordering a rather lot of them).

However: The military would be rather unlikely to be interested in a decanter-powered tank under the price points I listed (I'm unclear what the 'correct' conversion should be). In part, because it's extremely impractical on a battlefield. All that water has to go somewhere, and it's unclear exactly how much horsepower could be gathered from it.

[Bohandas]

Also, the average person's wealth is probably gonna be higher in a modern-ish setting since people won't be dirt farming peasants

[Zakier]

Honestly I see engines and vehicles being powered in different ways. Decanters like that will probably be used in power plants as Noone can be expected to sit around generating electricity all the time. Modern ways of creating power and conveniences may still occur. A decanter can power a turbine at a constant stream endlessly provided there was an offset on the other side for the water to go.

For more mundane use I imagine having a team of wizards or sorcerers on call to put out fires isn't possoble. A firetruck with a decanter however can be ran by mundanes.

[Vizzerdrix]

Anyone mention shadowrun yet? Might be a good place to dig up ideas.

[Flickerdart]

I would get rid of magic items entirely, or at least restrict their proliferation. If magic is to remain discrete from science, it should not be consistent enough to make magic items. Talented magicians should be as rare and fickle as legendary artists and performers. A decanter of endless water isn't just something you crank out to run power plants, it's as rare as the Mona Lisa and sits in a museum, because the revenue from showing it off to tourists vastly exceeds any power it can generate.

As an easy start, take any superhero 'verse and remove the tired "punch the bad guys" plots. Now you have magic dudes who are both rare and powerful. What would their place in the world look like, when we can already mass-produce so many wonders?

[Bohandas]

I would get rid of magic items entirely, or at least restrict their proliferation. If magic is to remain discrete from science, it should not be consistent enough to make magic items.

But there's no reason why it should be so. In fact, I don't think I've ever encountered a setting where it was where it didn't feel forced.


it's as rare as the Mona Lisa and sits in a museum

There's very little to the original of a work of art that you can't get from a photo of the work. Mostly just archaelogical details about the physical structure and chemical composition plus any detail relying on iridescence.

[Flickerdart]

But there's no reason why it should be so.
The reason it should be so is the premise. If magic can be neatly packaged into a box, it becomes science.

[unseenmage]

The reason it should be so is the premise. If magic can be neatly packaged into a box, it becomes science.

Additionally, if said magic-science still breaks basic physics, conservation of energy, causality, entropy, and whatnot, then post-scarcity society follows immediately behind.

If the magic-box always does what it's magic-ed to do without fail then semi-immediate post scarcity.
If the magic box does what it's magic-ed to do most of the time. Still Post scarcity but a slightly longer timescale, you just need more boxes.
If the magic box does what it's magic-ed to do only a fraction of the time but when it works it breaks physics then post scarcity could still be on the way, you just need a LOT more magic boxes.
If the magic box doesn't work as advertised then we've strayed from this post's premise and we're no longer talking about magic that has advanced as science's equal.


If magic cannot make something from nothing, cannot break causality, does not ignore entropy, or doesn't otherwise interfere with the natural order of tings on a human scale then it probably doesn't count for our discussion. The magic would at least have to be able to duplicate radio, the combustion engine, manufacturing, the microchip, the internet, gps, etc or it just isn't science's equal.
If ALL it can do is parallel science then why use it? If it is better somehow (more accessible, cheaper resource-wise, etc) then why use science and how exactly is it magical?



From a writer's perspective the main difference between magic and science is cause and effect. Science has it and magic either ignores it or the effects are disassociated from the cause. If the magic has it's own "natural" laws that it follows no matter what then it becomes a science.
So the defining characteristic differentiating magic from science becomes reliability. If either is more reliable then it "wins" and the other will fall out of favor, become disused, and not be equal.

[Mato]

For those who don't know how Wealth works in d20 Modern, I'll explain.Assuming and making up things, and your incoming post to defend your justification for them, could have be done a lot simpler and without your homebrew.

According to Urban Arcana on page 121, 1gp=$20 and you are to compare that to the wealth dc to cash value table on page 204 in the Modern rule book. Which makes the decanter officially dc 35~36 and the main purpose of this text here is just to make this a paragraph rather than a single sentence.

[Bohandas]

A decanter of endless water isn't just something you crank out to run power plants, it's as rare as the Mona Lisa and sits in a museum, because the revenue from showing it off to tourists vastly exceeds any power it can generate.

Showing it off to tourists doesn't preclude using it for power generation. They give tours of the Hoover Dam.

[Rizban]

Assuming and making up things, and your incoming post to defend your justification for them, could have be done a lot simpler and without your homebrew.

According to Urban Arcana on page 121, 1gp=$20 and you are to compare that to the wealth dc to cash value table on page 204 in the Modern rule book. Which makes the decanter officially dc 35~36 and the main purpose of this text here is just to make this a paragraph rather than a single sentence.I don't have Urban Arcana, so...

My assumption, however, is that Urban Arcana treats magic as rare, unique, obscure, or otherwise difficult to acquire, at least so far as the general NPC populace is concerned. That's not the premise of this thread. I specified that my post was based on the premise that magic was mass produced, and thus a lower purchase DC from my calculation is to expected.


Additionally, if said magic-science still breaks basic physics, conservation of energy, causality, entropy, and whatnot, then post-scarcity society follows immediately behind.

If the magic-box always does what it's magic-ed to do without fail then semi-immediate post scarcity.
If the magic box does what it's magic-ed to do most of the time. Still Post scarcity but a slightly longer timescale, you just need more boxes.
If the magic box does what it's magic-ed to do only a fraction of the time but when it works it breaks physics then post scarcity could still be on the way, you just need a LOT more magic boxes.
If the magic box doesn't work as advertised then we've strayed from this post's premise and we're no longer talking about magic that has advanced as science's equal.


If magic cannot make something from nothing, cannot break causality, does not ignore entropy, or doesn't otherwise interfere with the natural order of tings on a human scale then it probably doesn't count for our discussion. The magic would at least have to be able to duplicate radio, the combustion engine, manufacturing, the microchip, the internet, gps, etc or it just isn't science's equal.
If ALL it can do is parallel science then why use it? If it is better somehow (more accessible, cheaper resource-wise, etc) then why use science and how exactly is it magical?



From a writer's perspective the main difference between magic and science is cause and effect. Science has it and magic either ignores it or the effects are disassociated from the cause. If the magic has it's own "natural" laws that it follows no matter what then it becomes a science.
So the defining characteristic differentiating magic from science becomes reliability. If either is more reliable then it "wins" and the other will fall out of favor, become disused, and not be equal.Even with infinite resources, you've got the problems of logistics. Look at real world examples where there was a great supply of goods, but people starved while the goods rotted due to poor logistics (late era Soviet Union) or inability to transport goods (Depression era USA). Even with teleport/dimension door/et al., you can't have everything everywhere at all times. We're talking about magic items, not greater artifacts, so even when creating food and water and other goods from nothing, there's going to be some lag time in making and distributing the goods. Now "eventually" you expect to have each individual with a smart phone analogue that does everything for them, but that just leads into the next paragraph.

There is one major component to this discussion that seems to have been largely overlooked. Most of us are assuming a mostly or completely peaceful world. Though it's entirely possible that such magics would lead to a utopian post-scarcity society, I just don't see that happening because: War. You put a group of individuals with absolutely all of their needs provided for in a given situation for any length of time, and conflict will arise. Whether from interpersonal issues or thinking up new "needs" or petty jealousy or for no reason other than sheer boredom. This is inevitably going to lead to war, unless there is a powerful state there to monitor and suppress all forms of violence or dissent, which will only end up breeding more violence and dissent.

Regardless of what you do, human nature is more likely to end up fighting over the magic goods than any other outcome. Even if you do manage to achieve post-scarcity, someone somewhere is going to perceive something as being unfair. If that person happens to be in charge of a country/mega corporation/etc. that has powerful magical weapons and thinks they can make their own situation better by starting a war...

[Bohandas]

Additionally, if said magic-science still breaks basic physics, conservation of energy, causality, entropy, and whatnot, then post-scarcity society follows immediately behind.

If the magic-box always does what it's magic-ed to do without fail then semi-immediate post scarcity.
If the magic box does what it's magic-ed to do most of the time. Still Post scarcity but a slightly longer timescale, you just need more boxes.
If the magic box does what it's magic-ed to do only a fraction of the time but when it works it breaks physics then post scarcity could still be on the way, you just need a LOT more magic boxes.
If the magic box doesn't work as advertised then we've strayed from this post's premise and we're no longer talking about magic that has advanced as science's equal.


If magic cannot make something from nothing, cannot break causality, does not ignore entropy, or doesn't otherwise interfere with the natural order of tings on a human scale then it probably doesn't count for our discussion. The magic would at least have to be able to duplicate radio, the combustion engine, manufacturing, the microchip, the internet, gps, etc or it just isn't science's equal.
If ALL it can do is parallel science then why use it? If it is better somehow (more accessible, cheaper resource-wise, etc) then why use science and how exactly is it magical?



From a writer's perspective the main difference between magic and science is cause and effect. Science has it and magic either ignores it or the effects are disassociated from the cause. If the magic has it's own "natural" laws that it follows no matter what then it becomes a science.
So the defining characteristic differentiating magic from science becomes reliability. If either is more reliable then it "wins" and the other will fall out of favor, become disused, and not be equal.

This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of science. If magic existed there would be absolutely no boundry between magical and scientific knowledge or between magic and technology. The only thing separating magic from science in the real world is that magic doesn't exist. If it did then the distinction would disappear.

[Rizban]

This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of science. If magic existed there would be absolutely no boundry between magical and scientific knowledge or between magic and technology. The only thing separating magic from science in the real world is that magic doesn't exist. If it did then the distinction would disappear.That assumes magic behaves in a predictable, repeatable manner. If it's overly random and undefinable, then you'll end up with a lot of scientific theories that can describe bits about it but not truly quantify it, much like when dealing with psychology.

[Mato]

My assumption, however, is that Urban Arcana treats magic as rare, unique, obscure, or otherwise difficult to acquire, at least so far as the general NPC populace is concerned.That'd be the incoming justification I mentioned.

Problem is, that's simply your personal view point which is fairly subjective. Several rebuttals could be posed, I already called out guns are cheaper now than swords back then, or how Modern already reduces the cost of magical items by 99.984% (1gp=$20? more like 1gp=$1,295), but the unavoidable fact is you think a product that takes several days to complete per unit would be called "common" in a world that produces hundreds of thousands of identical items each and every single day. :smallsigh:

But there isn't any reason to even start walking down that road. It's really not all that different than asking the question of how much should a wand of fireballs cost if evocation is one of the least useful schools. You can get ten thousand overly complicated, exceedingly long, and blinded by bias answers on the subject but officially the answer is immediate and to the point. And for those interested in official or easy answers, rather than discussing homebrew over several pages as each person argues their standard is "correct", have already finished the subject.

[Rizban]

That'd be the incoming justification I mentioned.

Problem is, that's simply your personal view point which is fairly subjective. Several rebuttals could be posed, I already called out guns are cheaper now than swords back then, or how Modern already reduces the cost of magical items by 99.984% (1gp=$20? more like 1gp=$1,295), but the unavoidable fact is you think a product that takes several days to complete per unit would be called "common" in a world that produces hundreds of thousands of identical items each and every single day. :smallsigh:

But there isn't any reason to even start walking down that road. It's really not all that different than asking the question of how much should a wand of fireballs cost if evocation is one of the least useful schools. You can get ten thousand overly complicated, exceedingly long, and blinded by bias answers on the subject but officially the answer is immediate and to the point. And for those interested in official or easy answers, rather than discussing homebrew over several pages as each person argues their standard is "correct", have already finished the subject.If 1 gp = $1,295, then 150ft of rope = 3gp = $3,885.
Using the Urban Arcana conversion rate of 1gp = $20, we get $60.
In the actual d20M book, 150ft of rope is DC5 or about $30... which is actually about right, though a bit on the high end, compared to real world pricing.

I didn't say they would be "common." I said, "assume that basic manufacturing exists and applies to magic items". In other words, they are mass produced like early automobiles, which were still quite expensive for the time, so they're not rare, handmade artisanal pieces. My "homebrew" was just simply taking the step in the idea that Jack_Simth had postulated in the immediately previous post by converting from a known system to a known system in the same manner that he used rather than converting from a known system to a real world model. It was never seriously intended to be a "This is how you should play this specific game." or as actual game rules of any kind.

That said, I'm not really sure why the confrontational tone, but at this point, I'm pretty well through with any attempt to discuss RAW with you in a thread that's largely system agnostic. I'll concede your point that my "homebrew" isn't RAW, but I'll stick with my original point and continue to believe that it adequately illustrates the point I was trying to make with that post.

[unseenmage]

...

Even with infinite resources, you've got the problems of logistics. Look at real world examples where there was a great supply of goods, but people starved while the goods rotted due to poor logistics (late era Soviet Union) or inability to transport goods (Depression era USA). Even with teleport/dimension door/et al., you can't have everything everywhere at all times. We're talking about magic items, not greater artifacts, so even when creating food and water and other goods from nothing, there's going to be some lag time in making and distributing the goods. Now "eventually" you expect to have each individual with a smart phone analogue that does everything for them, but that just leads into the next paragraph.

Astral Caravan, Shadow Walk, and Mass Teleport take care of most of this and they can all be crammed into a magic item. Teleportation Circle and Gate can be in magic items too. Heck, just a simple Random Personal Item of Teleport would allow someone to Santa Clause the needs of others away.

Greater Artifacts only really differ from basic Magic Items in that they cannot be destroyed or can only be destroyed in a specific way and/or they have some superpowers not normally allowed in regular magic items. Even then removing an artifact from circulation effectively destroys it and is easy enough to do via mortal magic and most artifact superpowers can be duplicated/replicated via mortal magic turned up to CL 21.





There is one major component to this discussion that seems to have been largely overlooked. Most of us are assuming a mostly or completely peaceful world. Though it's entirely possible that such magics would lead to a utopian post-scarcity society, I just don't see that happening because: War. You put a group of individuals with absolutely all of their needs provided for in a given situation for any length of time, and conflict will arise. Whether from interpersonal issues or thinking up new "needs" or petty jealousy or for no reason other than sheer boredom. This is inevitably going to lead to war, unless there is a powerful state there to monitor and suppress all forms of violence or dissent, which will only end up breeding more violence and dissent.

Regardless of what you do, human nature is more likely to end up fighting over the magic goods than any other outcome. Even if you do manage to achieve post-scarcity, someone somewhere is going to perceive something as being unfair. If that person happens to be in charge of a country/mega corporation/etc. that has powerful magical weapons and thinks they can make their own situation better by starting a war...

Not ignored just obviated. Sure maybe there's war and disease and famine etc. but when basic physics can be sidestepped then basic troubles can be sidestepped too. Eventually somebody wins, unifies their world, and after that it's a nice slow decline into Wall-E style evolution for the pampered masses. Human nature doesn't ignore basic conservation of energy.

Like I said before post-scarcity stories tend to be boring ones.


This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of science. If magic existed there would be absolutely no boundry between magical and scientific knowledge or between magic and technology. The only thing separating magic from science in the real world is that magic doesn't exist. If it did then the distinction would disappear.

Which "this" do you mean exactly? I made several statements here.


That assumes magic behaves in a predictable, repeatable manner. If it's overly random and undefinable, then you'll end up with a lot of scientific theories that can describe bits about it but not truly quantify it, much like when dealing with psychology.
Thank you. Is precisely what I was going to type when I got up this morning.

[Flickerdart]

Showing it off to tourists doesn't preclude using it for power generation. They give tours of the Hoover Dam.

Nuts to the Hoover Dam - put this thing in the middle of New York and rake in a hundred times the tourist money.

[khadgar567]

Nuts to the Hoover Dam - put this thing in the middle of New York and rake in a hundred times the tourist money.
didyou just forget you made compact hydro energy power plant in middle of the crowded city talk about breaking wbl mate this changes whole city infrastructure by ridiculous margin .

[Bohandas]

That assumes magic behaves in a predictable, repeatable manner. If it's overly random and undefinable, then you'll end up with a lot of scientific theories that can describe bits about it but not truly quantify it, much like when dealing with psychology.

Quantum mechanics is overtly random

[Jack_Simth]

Quantum mechanics is overtly random
It's a weighted random, and behaves within quantifiable rules where the specific random outcomes have predictable and manipulable probabilities (e.g., setting the local magnetic field strength changes the probabilities involved in an electron's "orbit" around the nucleus of an atom). Additionally, at the level where most things function, the statistical net of quantum mechanical effects is extremely predictable (and thus, nuclear clocks).

[Zakier]

This discussion went way further into theory than I could have hoped for. Lol

[Bohandas]

Magic would have to be at least partly predictable in order to not be entirely useless.

Besides, the OP asked about how he world would be different if magic had grown with technology, not how the world would be different if Rods of Wonder were real. Plus even the Rod of Wonder is in some ways predictable

[Jack_Simth]

even the Rod of Wonder is in some ways predictableOh yes. A caster with Summon Elemental and a Rod of Wonder has a fairly reliable income stream available in the form of low-value gemstones.

[Virdish]

When talking about what a post scarcity world would be like I think people tend to forget maslows hierarchy of needs. If the basics are taken care of then it provides a settingg where there are less needs that need to be sublimated into destructive behavior. Humans, historically, have always fought over one of two things, resources or culture though the second is often a cover for a resource war.