Advice For A Hopeful DM?

[Ceralune]

So, I've gotten my feet wet in PbP on these forums for the past couple of months, and sometime amid all of the fluff-writing and character-building I realized... I really want to DM a game. I love getting into the heads of characters and creating compelling stories from the player's point of view, and I'm curious to know what it's like from the other side. There are just a couple of problems:

1. I've played very few campaigns to medium/high level. One, to be exact, which was irl. All of the other campaigns I've played in died around 3rd level at the highest. Thus, I have almost no idea what would make for balanced encounters above 3rd level. Now, this might be a non-issue if the campaign dies before then (as, it seems, campaigns often do with PbP). But that seems like a really sad thing to rely? on.

2. I feel pretty good about my ability to flesh out a single character well. I am less sure about how well I'd fare dealing with a bunch of characters. This can be somewhat alleviated by running an pre-written AP, but it's still a concern of mine.

So, it'd be cool if any experienced DMs (or anyone for that matter, I won't be picky, promise) could give me advice on how to deal with these problems, or just straight up tell me that I'm not experienced enough to run a campaign (which, may be true. Idk?). Also, if anyone has any general advice to give on what has made for successful campaigns in your experience, that would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Whoops. Forgot to add that I'd want to run a Pathfinder campaign, since it's the only system I'm familiar enough with to feel comfortable running at all.

[Zakier]

Can't help on the balanced encounters for Pathfinder.

I can however offer some general tips.

When it comes to building npcs, personality matters. You don't have to get in depth with an entire personality profile. Small but noticeable things are fine.

Something that helped in my own campaign are some of the tables like the random quirks and personality tables you can find through Google searches.

A good one for you would be this thread

https://m.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/2t8xwu/compilation_of_random_character_creation_tables/ ( This Reddit thread )

As it lost links to various tables and generators designed to help in creation of characters randomly.

[GilesTheCleric]

I think the thing that rings the most true to me of any general advice is to keep things fun. Asking the players what they find fun, and finding a way to connect that with your favourite parts of the game helps quite a lot. It also helps to alleviate misunderstandings and unrequited expectations.

I'm sorry that I can't help much with PF balancing, either. If you're ever unsure, I find it's easiest to under-challenge the party, and slowly crank things up than the other way around.

[Crake]

So, I've gotten my feet wet in PbP on these forums for the past couple of months, and sometime amid all of the fluff-writing and character-building I realized... I really want to DM a game. I love getting into the heads of characters and creating compelling stories from the player's point of view, and I'm curious to know what it's like from the other side. There are just a couple of problems:

1. I've played very few campaigns to medium/high level. One, to be exact, which was irl. All of the other campaigns I've played in died around 3rd level at the highest. Thus, I have almost no idea what would make for balanced encounters above 3rd level. Now, this might be a non-issue if the campaign dies before then (as, it seems, campaigns often do with PbP). But that seems like a really sad thing to rely? on.

2. I feel pretty good about my ability to flesh out a single character well. I am less sure about how well I'd fare dealing with a bunch of characters. This can be somewhat alleviated by running an pre-written AP, but it's still a concern of mine.

So, it'd be cool if any experienced DMs (or anyone for that matter, I won't be picky, promise) could give me advice on how to deal with these problems, or just straight up tell me that I'm not experienced enough to run a campaign (which, may be true. Idk?). Also, if anyone has any general advice to give on what has made for successful campaigns in your experience, that would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Whoops. Forgot to add that I'd want to run a Pathfinder campaign, since it's the only system I'm familiar enough with to feel comfortable running at all.

When it comes to making challenging encounters this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit) has you covered.

Beyond that, when it comes to running a campaign, you need to strike a balance between prep and impromptu. Don't worry too much about planning out every little detail in every place, but have in mind a concept that you can extrapolate from. Be able to make up the little details on the fly if the players ask about them. Know how and why things happened, but don't plan what and how things will happen, just what NPCs will want to do (nothing is a certainty when players are involved).

If you can master the truman effect, you will save yourself a lot of headaches and tears over unused planning, while maintaining the verisimilitude that players seek when playing a ttrpg.

Also, for the love of all that is holy, if you can manage to run your game around an actual table, do it, don't ruin rpgs for yourself by playing play by post. At the very least use roll20 or the like, have some element of real time interaction going, without the social aspect, the game is just a bunch of numbers and some dice, and you'll have a better time playing a video game.

Edit: Oh, also, a big thing that was kinda touched on by giles, set expectations! Make sure you know what kind of game you want to run (what you want to do is just as important as what your players want to do, you can't run a fun game if you're not having fun yourself!), make sure the players are on board, make sure you know what your players do, and often more importantly do not want to see in the game (and if you're running a horror game, use that against them :smallamused: ). Make sure the players know what kind of world they're stepping into, what sorts of basic assumptions about the world will have changed, should the expect monsters walking down the streets, mages at every corner, or is magic rare, something to be coveted and kept to the elite? Give players a sense of the world before they make their characters so they don't get disappointed when you tell them to make something more fitting. Don't be afraid to tell players they can't have something either!

[Ceralune]

Something that helped in my own campaign are some of the tables like the random quirks and personality tables you can find through Google searches.

A good one for you would be this thread

https://m.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/2t8xwu/compilation_of_random_character_creation_tables/ ( This Reddit thread )

Ohh, thank you! Btw, the url= part needs to have the url after it, and then the text you want it to show up as goes in the brackets.


I think the thing that rings the most true to me of any general advice is to keep things fun. Asking the players what they find fun, and finding a way to connect that with your favourite parts of the game helps quite a lot. It also helps to alleviate misunderstandings and unrequited expectations.

That's a big help already; I definitely want there to be fun and communication from both the players' end and my end if I DM a game. I'm in a few games currently, one with an OOC thread that people are really active in and that we use to talk about anything, really, and I enjoy that format so I think I'd encourage the same in my own.

My follow-up question then would be, since I'd probably run an AP as my first campaign, how do you recommend going about keeping the players' interests at heart while still sticking with the written story?


When it comes to making challenging encounters this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit) has you covered.

Thanks for this! I'll start looking it over....


If you can master the truman effect, you will save yourself a lot of headaches and tears over unused planning, while maintaining the verisimilitude that players seek when playing a ttrpg.

Err, when I google "truman effect" it brings me to "Truman Show Delusion." Is this what you're referring to?


Beyond that, when it comes to running a campaign, you need to strike a balance between prep and impromptu. Don't worry too much about planning out every little detail in every place, but have in mind a concept that you can extrapolate from. Be able to make up the little details on the fly if the players ask about them. Know how and why things happened, but don't plan what and how things will happen, just what NPCs will want to do (nothing is a certainty when players are involved).

Also, for the love of all that is holy, if you can manage to run your game around an actual table, do it, don't ruin rpgs for yourself by playing play by post. At the very least use roll20 or the like, have some element of real time interaction going, without the social aspect, the game is just a bunch of numbers and some dice, and you'll have a better time playing a video game.

I totally understand what you're saying. Having played TTRPGs irl and on these forums now, there are definitely advantages to playing in real-time that I miss playing here. I'm currently playing a campaign with some friends from my hometown on roll20 and it's great to take a few seconds and laugh over what our characters are up to, and have fluid combat, etc. That said, I feel like PbP also has some advantages that cater to my personal strengths and and make up for my weaknesses, so I think I might try it at least for my first campaign. It would allow me to create a story more effectively. I'm much better with portraying my character through thought-out writing rather than spontaneously trying to make it up at a moment's notice. My characters on these forums have more opportunities to display depth compared to my characters played in real-time. Thus, I think I'll be able to really meld the PCs stories with my own more easily here. I'm not as well-versed on some rules, so PbP would give me time to look up things I don't remember. Plus, I go to an out-of-state university and finding people is HARD.

EDIT in response to Crake's EDIT: Hmm, that reminds me, any recommendations for what to ban? Off the top of my head I'd probably ban Psionics because I don't understand them at all, third-party because it's unlikely I'd know anything there, normal Summoner since that one and only long-running campaign I mentioned earlier was one where I was playing Summoner, and man they are OP. I can see why they got an Unchained version.

[Green Elf]

I agree on all of this advice. You need to remember one more piece of advice though, PULL OUT A PIECE OF PAPER AND START TAKING NOTES ON THIS! And I agree to ban psionics, they suck.

[Thealtruistorc]

Here are several pieces of advice I've learned from running high-level campaigns:

1. Read up on the rules. Players expect the GM to know the game like the back of his hand, which is something that you sort of need to do once players start attempting crazy things like grappling or tinkering with the action economy. I imagine this would help to alleviate your issue with psionics (which IMO don't suck and actually work a lot better than vancian systems in many cases).

2. Always have a backup plan, if not several. Players will do unexpected things, so you as a GM should be ready to accommodate whatever happens. Have secondary plot hooks, backup bad guys, and alternate routes planned out in case the mold is shattered, and always be sure to keep the game going regardless of what happens.

3. You don't need a lot of words to make a character complex and interesting. One or two motives or desires are all you need to really fabricate an NPC, and the rest of them can naturally flow from their interactions from the party. We didn't need to know everything about Holden Caulfield or Aragorn from the start, we saw their worldviews and personalities develop over the course of the story.

4. Don't be afraid to embellish. Things can work differently in your world from other fantasy settings, and provided you give the players the proper verisimilitude and explanation as to why certain spells and historical events operate differently in your world, their shouldn't be a problem.

5. Be willing to evolve your playstyle to suit that of the players. If they like complex combat, give them lots of fights with enemies that utilize unusual tactics like flight or terrain control. If they like telling a story, take a few extra minutes to make sense of the world they are interacting with. Be willing to compromise with them on certain affairs so that everyone is having a good time.

6. Finally, make sure that the world does not revolve around the players. The "Truman Effect" likely refers to the fact that many games don't have things going on beyond the scope of the players, and that is an easy problem to fall into. Things should be going on beyond player agency, and the world should progress like an actual world would with or without the players' intercession.

I have more advice on my blog here (http://thelichslog.blogspot.com/), if you want to take the time to read through some more nuanced advice on GMing and worldbuilding.

[Ceralune]

I agree on all of this advice. You need to remember one more piece of advice though, PULL OUT A PIECE OF PAPER AND START TAKING NOTES ON THIS!

Aye aye o7


Here are several pieces of advice I've learned from running high-level campaigns:

1. Read up on the rules. Players expect the GM to know the game like the back of his hand, which is something that you sort of need to do once players start attempting crazy things like grappling or tinkering with the action economy. I imagine this would help to alleviate your issue with psionics (which IMO don't suck and actually work a lot better than vancian systems in many cases).

I have a pretty solid understanding of the most-often-used rules, and I'd surely brush up on them repeatedly before and when running a campaign. That said... there's so much. If I have to have a perfect understanding of all or almost all of what there is in Pathfinderland, I should probably check out of DMing now. That's something I like about PbP - that it would give me time to look up rules I'm less familiar with. Psionics I am hesitant about for a few linked reasons (I've never played with anyone who used them, a lot of DMs seem to ban them, taking time to learn how they work), but I suppose they're worth looking over.


3. You don't need a lot of words to make a character complex and interesting. One or two motives or desires are all you need to really fabricate an NPC, and the rest of them can naturally flow from their interactions from the party. We didn't need to know everything about Holden Caulfield or Aragorn from the start, we saw their worldviews and personalities develop over the course of the story.

Yeah, that seems to be what people are telling me. I think I'll be able to pry myself away from developing all of teh NPCs and sticking to just 1 or 2 recurring ones while having the others present enough, but not fully developed.


5. Be willing to evolve your playstyle to suit that of the players. If they like complex combat, give them lots of fights with enemies that utilize unusual tactics like flight or terrain control. If they like telling a story, take a few extra minutes to make sense of the world they are interacting with. Be willing to compromise with them on certain affairs so that everyone is having a good time.

Would it also be worth mentioning in the recruitment post that my strengths lie more with storytelling, and that while I will do my darnedest to create complex combat if that's what they're really passionate about, thou hast been warned?


6. Finally, make sure that the world does not revolve around the players. The "Truman Effect" likely refers to the fact that many games don't have things going on beyond the scope of the players, and that is an easy problem to fall into. Things should be going on beyond player agency, and the world should progress like an actual world would with or without the players' intercession.

Ohh, so just, other things are happening that the players cannot see. Okay. c: I understand now.


I have more advice on my blog here (http://thelichslog.blogspot.com/), if you want to take the time to read through some more nuanced advice on GMing and worldbuilding.

This is great, I think I'll stick to an AP for my first campaign but I love worldbuilding (from the little I've dabbled in) and hope to run a unique campaign eventuallymaybe.

[Darth Ultron]

2. I feel pretty good about my ability to flesh out a single character well. I am less sure about how well I'd fare dealing with a bunch of characters. This can be somewhat alleviated by running an pre-written AP, but it's still a concern of mine.

A good trick here is pick a person or fictional character you know well. Then make Boz Hightower that person/character. Have you watched all the Supernatural shows and ''know'' Sam Winchester....well he works fine for any cleric, ranger or hunter type. You can even break it down by the seasons too.

When playing the game, keep a blank piece of paper with the NPCs name out, and write down anything you might think of as your role playing. Soon you will have a personality.


My follow-up question then would be, since I'd probably run an AP as my first campaign, how do you recommend going about keeping the players' interests at heart while still sticking with the written story?


Well, this gets a little tricky....if you and the players agree to run an AP, then you mostly are agreeing to just follow the path. But that is what AP's are For: here is an adventure path...follow it. It is the classic way to have an adventure.

If a player does have some interest, you can put it on the path easy enough. To add such interests won't have any effect on the story, they will just make the story more interesting to that player.

[Ceralune]

Well, this gets a little tricky....if you and the players agree to run an AP, then you mostly are agreeing to just follow the path. But that is what AP's are For: here is an adventure path...follow it. It is the classic way to have an adventure.

If a player does have some interest, you can put it on the path easy enough. To add such interests won't have any effect on the story, they will just make the story more interesting to that player.

I understand, though I've seen a lot of Recruitment posts for APs that explicitly say they're going to add new things to the AP. I'm considering doing this on a small scale, if the players give indication that they want it to go a certain direction.

[Crake]

Err, when I google "truman effect" it brings me to "Truman Show Delusion." Is this what you're referring to?

Yes, if you haven't seen the truman show, I'd highly recommend it, it's a great film, but the point of the analogy (not a spoiler, don't worry) is that the main character lives in a made up world, a reality tv show that he isn't aware of. His whole world is aimed at him, from his perspective, and built to cater/challenge him, but, on occasion, he wanders where he isn't expected, and sees the seams in the world. One of the examples early on is, as a child, he looks over a sand dune to see construction as the "set" is being built, catching a glimpse before his father grabs him and tells him it's dangerous to run off on his own.

The point is that you don't need to build anything beyond that which will affect the players, giving them what feels like a really fleshed out world, because what they experience seems real enough.


I totally understand what you're saying. Having played TTRPGs irl and on these forums now, there are definitely advantages to playing in real-time that I miss playing here. I'm currently playing a campaign with some friends from my hometown on roll20 and it's great to take a few seconds and laugh over what our characters are up to, and have fluid combat, etc. That said, I feel like PbP also has some advantages that cater to my personal strengths and and make up for my weaknesses, so I think I might try it at least for my first campaign. It would allow me to create a story more effectively. I'm much better with portraying my character through thought-out writing rather than spontaneously trying to make it up at a moment's notice. My characters on these forums have more opportunities to display depth compared to my characters played in real-time. Thus, I think I'll be able to really meld the PCs stories with my own more easily here. I'm not as well-versed on some rules, so PbP would give me time to look up things I don't remember. Plus, I go to an out-of-state university and finding people is HARD.

EDIT in response to Crake's EDIT: Hmm, that reminds me, any recommendations for what to ban? Off the top of my head I'd probably ban Psionics because I don't understand them at all, third-party because it's unlikely I'd know anything there, normal Summoner since that one and only long-running campaign I mentioned earlier was one where I was playing Summoner, and man they are OP. I can see why they got an Unchained version.

Regarding what to ban, well, anything you don't understand is probably a decent place to start, though I would recommend familiarizing yourself with as many different rulesets as you can. Personally I'm quite well versed in the system, having been playing it for almost a decade and a half now, and DMing for coming on 4 years now, so the only things I ban are things based on flavour and taste. For example when it comes to flavour, in my personal setting, it's a very low magic world, so high magic options are generally not allowed, I don't allow the more exotic races, not because they don't exist, but because it will just cause too much disruption in the story and adventure, unless the player has some kind of demonstrable way to integrate themselves from level 1. Then of course, there's banning based on taste, something like frenzied berserker is a no-go in my games, simply because they aren't particularly good for team play, where cleaving a team mate in half is easily a possibility.

That's 3.5 though, so when it comes to pathfinder, the only real thing I can say is: Definitely go with unchained, both for summoner's nerf and all the other classes' buff.

[rrwoods]

If you're starting at low enough a level, my recommendation is don't ban anything.

Even if you don't understand something, in my experience, the time it takes to understand a new subsystem is pithy compared to the time you're already spending constructing the campaign. Psionics in particular is even easier to grasp than vancian casting (IMO) -- spend points on powers; refresh points each day. Can't spend more points on a single power than your manifester level. It's otherwise almost exactly like spell casting.

Remember that you don't need to know a whole book just because a player uses an option from it. With subsystems you need to understand the framework, but it's worth it for your players to be able to create the characters they want to.

Granted, take what I'm saying here with a grain of salt. I'm making value judgments based on my experience from both sides of the screen. Your experience may be different; YMMV.

[Kol Korran]

Hey there! First of all, welcome to DMing! It may look daunting (And sometimes it is, I guess), but it can also be a great deal of fun. A few quick pieces of advice:
1. Don't worry about experience- Being an experienced player and an experienced DM are two different things, and the only way to learn and gain experience is by... doing it. I've DMed for a looooonnng time, and I'm still learning. This is a game, no body is perfect, we all mess up and make mistakes, and it's perfectly ok. Just be upfront with your group about it at first, and ask them to help you along, and you'll all grow in the experience. (AKA Bait put a great guide for starting DMs, take a look! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?76474-So-You-Wanna-Be-A-DM-A-Potentially-Helpful-Guide-(Reposted-and-Updated))

2. Remember: Before the story, before the campaign, before the characters, there are, and always will be- THE PLAYERS. (And this includes you!). The game is for the players, and so when planning/ improvising/ running the game, keep thinking about things that will appeal to the players. (perhaps through the characters, but the aim is the people who play them). It's... a bit hard to grasp or keep aware of at times, but it's quite crucial. I suggest to read this article about gaming aesthetics for some insight (http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/)

3. Start small, with something you're comfortable with. No need to start a 20 levels campaign, that spans whole continents, the planes and such. Plan for something smaller, both in local and scope (I suggest to plan for a 4-5 levels campaign at first, a LOT can happen in that span, and be great fun!).

4. To start with, I'd suggest to NOT run Paizo's adventure paths. Different players have different play styles, but the APs favor Challenge and Narrative play (From the above article), which can limit and not fit all groups. The APs have other issues, and often try to push a lot of "side rule systems" on you, which may not fit a new DM.

5. On that matter, you've asked how to keep players interests with "the story". My suggestion? Don't have "a story/ plot", but rather have a scene, conflict and forces operating in it and... have the story form from the characters actions, and the world responding. You may have some ideas of what MIGHT happen, just be aware there need be no need or guarantee for that to actually happen. Come to the game without knowing what will happen, and let the game evolve. It's... not easy to do. D&D and similar often emphasize the DM as "the provider of adventure/ world", with the onus of responsibility on him/ her. It's an important but hard lesson to "let go/ lose control" of what will happen, and it feels... a bit scary, a bit frightening to some of us (Me included! Took me quite some time to do so). But this often leads to the best of games!

You do not come "to tell a story, featuring the PCs". You come to "find out what the story will be, and make it WITH the players". You don't know what will happen, just set the stage, and find out with the players, as the game progresses.

Consider the following scene, and the different approaches:
The town's people have been kidnapped, and are held hostage by a pack of goblinoids in a small ruined fort in the forest.
The "story" inclined DM plans the route through the forest, the various encounters and clues found within, and then the fort, and a series of encounters, till they battle the bugbear chief and shaman. En route they will discover that the goblinoids had accomplices, and will find out one of the merchants fro the town bribed the town guard's captain, to enable the kidnapping. The merchant seeks to wed the mayor's daughter, but since she is unwilling he seeks the aid of hag/ witch in the forest, in return for loot and some victims. The party is supposed to found the clues, but arrive too late, and then rush to the hag/ witch' place, and combat both her, the merchant and his lackeys, and prevent a dark ritual, which will be the climax of this part of the adventure. Yet the players may choose a different route through the woods, miss some or all of the clues, or jump into widely different conclusions. They may find a clever way to circumvent most of the fort's defenses, or act foolishly and nearly get themselves killed. They may utterly miss the merchant's involvement, and more.

The "set the scene" DM will note a few key locations in the forest, have a plan of the fort, a list of the goblinoids and their pets, the merchant's forces, motivations, a few key NPCs both as hostiles or allies in the town, and possibly a time scale ("The merchant and goblin chief haggle over the amount of "victims" for a week, after that there will be 3 "deliveries" to the witch each of them 2 days apart, the shaman is worried after 2 such deliveries and stirs resistance. The witch will start her ritual after 2 deliveries, and will finish 2 days after the last...")
The DM has NO idea of how things will turn out though. He has forces, places, motivations, and will respond.
Perhaps the PCs decide to haggle/ deal with the goblinoids?
Perhaps they are quickly suspicious of the kidnappings, and spend time investigating the guard?
Perhaps they decide to pose as "innocent targets" to lure the goblinoids?
Perhaps they have some clever use of magic to enable them to infiltrate instead of battling their way through?
Perhaps they decide the goblinoids are too much of a threat to tackle alone, and decide to seek allies in the forest to fight them, or find a way to cause them to turn on each other?
And more, and more... The DM finds out with the players...

6. Last, but certaianly not least- Remember that RPGs are first and foremost social games. Yes, they are about constructing a fantasy story, but this is done with the cooperation of people, no in the story- you and the players. You adjust expectations, you discuss disagreements you work with each other, you build up on each other's game, and there's a lot going OOC. As such, it is vital to both maintain the atmosphere and good feel in the group, and it's vital to chose a ompatible group of players (NOT characters! That will come later). So, if you're going to play in PbP, choose PLAYERS first, not characters. A lot of PbP players have made character writing into an art, a hobby unto itself, but make poor players, or the mix of players (Despite FANTASTIC characters), simply don't mash up.

I think I emphasized players enough.

Good luck! :smallsmile:

[Ceralune]

Hmm. The reasons why I favor an AP for my first campaign (looking at Curse of the Crimson Throne, specifically) are: writing/planning a campaign takes time. Time that I'm not sure I want to invest in a PbP game, where players and DMs alike are known to drop out. I have done a little with worldbuilding (mostly with creating places for my characters to be from), but I'm not sure if I'm ready for something on that huge a scale. While it's something I want to do eventually, I feel it might be too ambitious for the first one. While I realize APs may not be for everyone, ideally those who are applying to join are aware that it is an AP, it will feature things APs feature, and they can decide whether or not they want to work with that.

Also, while I would intend to stick with the story provided by the AP, I don't feel apprehensive at the thought of the PCs getting sidetracked and winding up somewhere totally different while I think of ways to eventually get them back on track. That would provide opportunities to worldbuild on a smaller scale, which I think I can handle.

On choosing Players rather than (or in addition to) Characters - that makes perfect sense. I definitely feel like I am the type of person who would fall into the potential trap of choosing characters whose stories I'm excited about without examining the players themselves more closely. This is mostly because I like storymaking. To me, people who have taken the time to think about backstories, how those backstories shape their personalities, and who have made me feel like I'm looking at a living, breathing person rather than a collection of statistics and numbers will probably like it as well. My question then is, how do you recommend choosing players on a PbP forum where I won't know every person who applies? What "kind" of players should I be looking for? How can I tell when certain players are going to clash with each other?

[Pugwampy]

or just straight up tell me that I'm not experienced enough to run a campaign

Dude ! This is not rocket science . Anyone can DM . If you can play with one hero , you can play as multiple monsters and thats half your job , other half is silly story time . You are the ref , the entertainer , storyman and monsters . IF players have a problem tell them to talk to your 7 dragon lawyers .



The reasons why I favor an AP for my first campaign (looking at Curse of the Crimson Throne, specifically) are: writing/planning a campaign takes time.

Depends on your style . Who said you had to write a novel for your campaign or even one page story ?

I only written a story once in my 50 plus sessions . I prefer to think up a cool battle scene and make a story from there . 30 - 45 minutes tops .

The more you prep the less surprises your players will spring on you


You are DM this is also going to be fun for you and time for you to experiment . Nice thing about failed DM experiments is your monsters get wacked and the players are happy and satisfied for wacking em .

Balancing is not a problem . Bring a set of beasties and see how long it takes for them to die .If the players walk all over them , make your next monsters a bit stronger and so on and so on . If players have a nice escape route and easy raise dead access from temple , you can go nutz with monster strength . I prefer escape route / strong monster games .

My rule for a balanced fight is one player goes down but all monsters are killed .

I assume AP means module . Dont forget you can flesh out the mods NPC,s and give them more life . Also if you dont like a set encounter in that mod , feel free to change it . If you dont the story in that mod , Change it . Treat adventure modules as a foundation that you can work on . Make it your own .

Same with the world map . This is a foundation or guide . You can use towns names but you can do what you like with those towns or make your own town . The lore is not a work of art , its a few guys earning a paycheck . You are Artist not them .

First thing I would say to start em off is pick a hub < town with temple , tavern and shops > . Do you have a favorite race and culture use that for inspiration ? DO you have a favorite map location for your hub town .
Make tavern keeper generous and say i gold for 5 - 7 sessions of Bed and Breakfast .

Players are level one . As DM you are "obligated" to let the level one snotties walk all over you and treat em with freebees and kid gloves .
Your gloves come off at level 2 and up . REVENGE YAY !!!

Whats your prop situation ? You make wonderful battle scenes with your old toys or even buying some new ones .

Also now is your chance to play with your fave monsters . Make a list and dont only have one encounter with them . The more you play with same monster the better you know them . If there is one disadvantage is first time playing with a monster while players use their heroes every session . You owe it to your fave monster to use it multiple times .

Players are off limits but Every NPC from god to mouse reports to DM never forget that .

Always say YES . Players try to do the funniest things or have the wierdest dreams for their heroes . Dont stamp on their dreams . If something is very silly or unreasonable try to negotiate it down or tell em so and so is not a good idea but do your best to give em what they want . Make up a rule on the spot .

Keep a dairy of the sessions events and use it to build onto the next session.
What did players do , how did the fight go , did something funny happen etc etc .

[Fouredged Sword]

Here are my two cents

- Decide HOW you are going to run combat. It's one of the most frustrating sides of PbP and you need to decide how you are going to do it and practice with yourself a bit to ensure that your method is readable and easy for you to post. Combat eats up a huge amount of time in PbP and you need a way to post fast and post clearly.

- Be cautious of back and forth. Across a table you can go back and forth in moments with interactions. On PbP it will take days. Be ready to post big segments and allow your players to interact with it all at once.

- Nominate a DM's helper in your party. This is a player who is in charge of keeping the party moving forward. You will run into sections that the game sorta stops because nobody wants to close a scene when they are not sure that everyone is done. Having a player nominated with the power to post closing posts to tie up scenes and keep things moving prevents you from having to post "the party does XYZ and the scene ends"

[J-H]

1. I've played very few campaigns to medium/high level. One, to be exact, which was irl. All of the other campaigns I've played in died around 3rd level at the highest. Thus, I have almost no idea what would make for balanced encounters above 3rd level. Now, this might be a non-issue if the campaign dies before then (as, it seems, campaigns often do with PbP). But that seems like a really sad thing to rely? on.
Use an ECL calculator, and by-the-book monsters, for your first few encounters. The D20SRD has an Encounter Calculator. I don't know if PFSRD does.
I like to start between levels 4 & 7, as everyone has some HP, some class features, and some options in combat, but the martial/caster disparity hasn't kicked in yet.

Look at each NPC or creature in an encounter as belonging to no more than two of these types:
Brute (melee)
Blaster (ranged damage, from warmage to warlock to archer)
Battlefield Control (grease/glitterdust/web/summon)
Support (bard song/haste/healer)
Tanky or Glass Cannon (by dint of HP, miss chances, or AC)

After a few battles, you'll see how the group does against each creature type.


2. I feel pretty good about my ability to flesh out a single character well. I am less sure about how well I'd fare dealing with a bunch of characters. This can be somewhat alleviated by running an pre-written AP, but it's still a concern of mine.
If you start in a dungeoncrawl or a wilderness area, you don't have to worry about fleshing out large numbers of NPCs at once. Walk before you run.

Unless you know for sure that the group is going to fight someone, don't stat out all the NPCs and encounters ahead of time. As long as you know that an encounter includes "a wizard around level 6 specialized in fire spells who sounds educated, a 6hd minotaur with a spiked chain who was a gladiator, and a half-orc level 4 ranger with a krenshar animal companion" - that's enough. If the group decides to fight it, it's PBP--you can sit down and take 30 minutes to do detailed statblocks before round 1, and nobody will know or care that they weren't built out fully. Just knowing what's in my quote above, I can, on-the-spot, make up 2-3 adjectives or descriptive points for each of the three NPCs. That's enough fleshing out. Done, move on, I spent 2 minutes on it.

Speed of posting is KEY to keeping PBP alive. Daily or once per 48 hours is really the minimum. I am a player in some games where we get a turn a week. It's a drag. I keep having to go back and figure out where we were, what my HP was, what we're doing, etc. Would you enjoy reading a novel bit-by-bit, 5 minutes every Saturday for two years?

You and your players are collaborating to find a story about them Doing Cool Things. Level 1 does not involve Doing Cool Things. Neither does "DM of No." You want to be "DM of Yes, and then X happens ...what do you do next?"

[Flickerdart]

My experience is with D&D 3.5, but they are largely the same game.


1. I've played very few campaigns to medium/high level. One, to be exact, which was irl. All of the other campaigns I've played in died around 3rd level at the highest. Thus, I have almost no idea what would make for balanced encounters above 3rd level. Now, this might be a non-issue if the campaign dies before then (as, it seems, campaigns often do with PbP). But that seems like a really sad thing to rely? on.
Don't sweat it too much. There are a few guidelines you should keep in mind to easily put together encounters that are not a foregone conclusion either way:


CR-appropriate means that the PCs have no chance of losing. Don't be afraid to exceed the number by a point or two.
Never drag out fights - if it's clear the PCs are cleaning house, saying "you quickly mop up the rest of the enemies" to keep the ball rolling is perfectly fine.
Never use a single creature - it will either be too strong and all but invincible, or too weak to deal with the action disadvantage. Use multiple weaker monsters. 2 or 3 is not a bad number.
Creatures rarely fight to the death. Even if they are winning, foes might decide they have taken too many losses and back off, or offer terms ("leave your gold and we'll let you live!"). Even animals will leave the PCs alone once they run away from the beast's territory.




2. I feel pretty good about my ability to flesh out a single character well. I am less sure about how well I'd fare dealing with a bunch of characters. This can be somewhat alleviated by running an pre-written AP, but it's still a concern of mine.
You don't need to flesh them out. Just focus on what matters for the story.

For example, let's say the PCs drag a dragon's corpse into town and demand to speak with the Duke. Such a prize surely grants them an audience, but you forgot to design him! No sweat, just go through this simple checklist:

Names! Use the landowners from the Domesday Book (http://www.domesdaybook.co.uk/landindex.html). The duke is now named Duke Hugh de Montfort.


Personality traits, both good and bad. You can use any kind of personality model (Myers-Briggs, blood type, etc). I like to take one or two heavenly virtues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues) and one or two deadly sins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins) to make a rounded character that's neither saintly nor demonic in countenance. Let's pick some at random (d7 twice from each list, discarding contradictions) - Hugh is Charitable and Diligent, but Envious and Wrathful. This makes him action-oriented and prone to anger, self-sacrificing of what he possesses and coveting that which he does not have. A dangerous man to cross!
Give the character a long-term goal. Duke Hugh, given his personality, wishes to expand his domain and power within the realm so that more people might fall under his just rule.
Give the character a short-term goal - a problem on his way to his long-term goal, or an opportunity he wishes to exploit. Hugh wishes to bring his realm into personal union with a nearby duchy, so that his power can be increased without bloodshed.
Give the character a line he will not cross to achieve his goals. Hugh's envious nature and diligent work ethic means that he fears granting others power within his realm, and so wants to oversee things as personally as possible. He will never let an army march without himself in the vanguard, or a project to be organized without his involvement, no matter how talented his subjects might be.
Give the character two sources of influence that the PCs might also interact with to determine his attitude towards them. As a duke, Hugh should have a lot of people lobbying him on various matters. His court chancellor would be a perfect influencer, and perhaps his chaplain is another. For lower-ranked NPCs, the duke would be an influencer himself - if the duke ends up hating the PCs, the guard captain, stablemaster, and even merchant might not want to be seen helping them!

[GilesTheCleric]

Hmm. The reasons why I favor an AP for my first campaign (looking at Curse of the Crimson Throne, specifically) are: writing/planning a campaign takes time.

APs will give you all your combat encounters, skill DCs, and a good framework for things, certainly. However, depending on what you're comfortable with, there's plenty of ways to have planning without devoting a ton of time to worldbuilding. As was mentioned above on the "truman effect", it's a good trick. I personally run sandbox/ open-world (open-universe recently; I have two spelljammer games right now), and use the truman effect extensively.

However, I'm pretty open with my players. At the end of each session, I like to ask them what they're thinking about doing next session, and that way both they and I can prepare. That said, even in sandbox games, I like to have worldbuilding elements. I typically create a sort of master calendar that denotes when and where large-scale events will happen throughout the timeline (ie. Elder Evils, natural disasters, coups, etc), and just let those happen on their own outside the scope of the players, until they interact with it. I do also keep notes on significant NPCs. Running a game in this style is a lot like being a skilled elocutor. Your best approach is to guide the conversation/ game into a direction where your knowledge and strengths lie.

I think Ultron did a good job describing the implicit assumptions and agreements involved in using APs. For me, if I'm using an AP, I follow it like the pirate's code -- it's a guideline, and if something emerges that's more interesting, then I'll run with it regardless of what the AP says. There's no shame in entirely changing a character or an outcome if it makes the game more fun.

On the first non-tutorial session for my newb group, I had planned interactions with two recurring NPCs (because of a d% roll during session 0 to see what random encounter they would have upon landing); taken together, they're a bit of a good cop/ bad cop. The good cop discovers them immediately after their spelljammer has crashed, and offers to help.

I had intended to have the good cop give one of the PCs a painting that referenced a dream the PC had had during the tutorial session (I hadn't planned it to happen; a failed ref check prompted me to come up with the dream on the spot as some fluff). However, the PC studiously avoided interacting with the painting at all. So, I gave up on that plot point, seeing that the player wasn't interested. In fact, the PC turned the tables entirely on what I had expected -- the PC gave away two books on survival that were in the spelljammer's library to the good cop NPC. I figure that will change how the good cop interacts with them later.

Later, the group meets the bad cop. The bad cop requests that they perform a task, and gives them a cold iron axe to complete it with. After completing the task, the group explicitly left behind the axe. I had planned to introduce them to some more game mechanics (and RP) via some fey, but now that they don't have a cold iron weapon, I'm probably going to change that encounter. However, the group did another unexpected thing -- they slight-of-handed the bad cop's Bag of Holding (the bad cop is a CR: no encounter, so had I wanted to prevent it, I could have; it seemed more fun to let them take it, though, so I adjusted the CR to "yes" for that situation).

Since I hadn't expected them to take the bag, I told them OOC I would describe its contents in a post after the game, and they understood. Now, I have many options -- I could give them another cold iron weapon from the bag, or I could use it to give them some information about the nature and motivations of the good cop+bad cop.

In short, this session could have gone a lot of different directions, and did end up going differently to what I had planned. There could have been a wild animal that attacked the good cop, but the party prevented that from happening by refusing to allow the good cop to camp with them overnight. They could have refused the bad cop and changed their relationship with the pair. There was a third NPC wandering about in the wilds they could have met had they chosen to travel in a different direction. They could have found a hidden cave with some loot, but chose not to be too investigative. They could even have looted the body of their captain for a nice item I had planted for them, but they showed restraint and buried him with (most) of his possessions. All of these actions will change my future plans, but I don't know how they'll change until the party decides which direction they're going in.

[Ceralune]

Ohh boy. Lots of detailed responses. Thank you guys! I'll be taking this into consideration for the campaign. I think I've got a good idea of how I want to run it now. c:

[ZamielVanWeber]

I may have missed this but just in case: every character has a name. Make a notebook of names to pull from if you are bad at thinking them up on the spot. If only planned NPCS have names your players may very well notice and learn to ignore anyone without a name.

[Stealth Marmot]

I haven't DM'd as much as I would like, but I have some experience with being a player and a little as a DM so here:

Set aside your first session for character creation. I find using tools like central casting and other books that provide random elements to a background can be INCREDIBLY valuable towards helping the players flesh out a character they will enjoy playing. What's more, make sure every player is present while everyone makes their characters, so they can constantly chat and give each other input on what their plans are and what they are looking for. This can lead to fun things like people deciding that they grew up together, or that they were once rivals, or that a certain event happened for both or all of them, all sorts of things. If you have the random elements generator for backgrounds, it can make the session fun as hell as people roll the dice and find out "OOP your family died. Too bad."

As for encounters, just eyeball it. The game has challenge ratings and for the most part they are accurate. (certain crabs notwithstanding but that was D&D 3.5 anyway) Have faith that your players can handle things, even running away if necessary. You can be honest and say you aren't too used to making encounters at higher level and tell them that running can always be an option. Just keep an eye out for "special" encounters. Monsters with abilities that can crush a party if they don't have the right counter. Invisible monsters or flying monsters for example. If you plan on using monsters like that, be sure that the player have not one, but TWO possible workable avenues of attack, and a possibility of escape. If they only have one, they might not be able to use it (person is KOd) or they might not think of it or forget about it. If they have TWO then the likelihood of them forgetting or unable to to BOTH drops significantly, but since it is still a possibility make sure Brave Sir Robin can run away.

Do make sure that monsters act their intellect, no more no less. A zombie will mindlessly shamble at a PC and try to thwack it. A mind flayer will be a bit more subversive and clever.

As for running the group, don't even be too familiar with their capabilities. Just eyeball a potential challenge and if they pull out something to bypass it that you didn't think of, good on them! The bad guys aren't omniscient. If you didn't think that the guy would melt a lock with potent acid, neither did the bugbears. This MIGHT make it so a session doesn't last as long as expected, especially if you don't plan a couple of sessions ahead (which I recommend, but not TOO far ahead or else you will be tempted to railroad). If you run out of material, just admit such and be sure to bring Munchkin to play for a bit. Or take that time to do things like shopping or counting XP.

Actually I recommend ditching XP in pathfinder entirely and just have ad hoc leveling when you think it is appropriate.

Things to ban:

Realm specific sourcebooks, unless you are IN that specific realm.

The Deck of Many Things. Don't. Use it. DON'T. No. Not even then.

OR THEN.

Helm of Opposed alignment, or any other items that forcibly shift a players alignment. Nothing takes away from a game then completely removing a player's decisions and agency with a character by saying "You put on the helm? Well now you play him LIKE THIS!"

Cell phones. Put that away until game is over, it's insulting to have someone playing Candy Crush during your game. I get that people have to have them on in case they get a call from home or work, but put them away unless they ring.

NO NOT EVEN THEN THAT DECK SHOULD NEVER BE USED EVER!

I would decide ahead of time if you want psionics. I would recommend not allowing them if it's your first time DMing. I never found much of an appeal to be honest. Feels sort of redundant when magic already exists. It adds a whole new set of books and skills you have to balance everything around.

NO DON'T USE THE DECK END OF DISCUSSION!

[ZamielVanWeber]

Oh goodness, I forgot about the horror that is the Deck of Many Things. It is the only thing I have ever seen in DnD with a 100% campaign kill rate (in my experience, obviously). It even killed the campaign that had one player as a balor (no LA) and the other as a worm that walks (ELH, no LA).

[Flickerdart]

Helm of Opposed alignment, or any other items that forcibly shift a players alignment. Nothing takes away from a game then completely removing a player's decisions and agency with a character by saying "You put on the helm? Well now you play him LIKE THIS!"
The Helm is not exceptional once you realize that alignment and personality are not the same thing. A Lawful Good fighter who fights for his friends and a Chaotic Evil fighter who fights for his friends can come off as the same person and even do the same things, simply justifying them in different ways.

But the issue is more that cursed items in general are dumb and bad. Pulling a -2 sword or a bag of devouring on unsuspecting PCs is just as bad as the Helm.



NO DON'T USE THE DECK END OF DISCUSSION!

The same applies to all artifacts. Unless you are ready to base the entire campaign around one, just don't do it.

[Kol Korran]

Pardon me for the late response, but my time to be online is quite limited these days. Still, I wanted to reply. I like getting people into the hobby! :smallsmile:

While some of this may seem like criticism, it is done in the best of intentions. I just wish to help avoid some of the mistakes/ problems me or fellow gamers have encountered.


Hmm. The reasons why I favor an AP for my first campaign (looking at Curse of the Crimson Throne, specifically) are: writing/planning a campaign takes time. Time that I'm not sure I want to invest in a PbP game, where players and DMs alike are known to drop out.
First of all, that is not a good attitude to have when entering a game, that you're assuming it would fail. Yes, many PbP games fail, but the most important thing to make them work is a true commitment and dedication from all involved. You need to go into this wanting to truly make it work, or it WILL fail. No game runs entirely smoothly, and even the best ones have some hitches, which need to be worked out. If you're expecting the game to fail, it will cause it to fail.

Secondly, planning a campaign takes a whole lot less time and investment if you're planning small, and if you're going by the "set the scene" approach. This approach fits PbPs wonderfully, since you have lots of time to adapt and work out the details. I've ran about 2/3rds of the Wrath of The Righteous campaign, (though table top) and in the end I've come to some conclusions. I too wished to run an AP to save me time, but the truth is? It took me MORE time to figure out what the designers intended, to adjust the thing to my group, read up on all the extra rules/ additions which I rarely used (Spells, feats, items and even whole rule systems), and fix the bugs. My general thoughts I'll put those in a spoiler copy pasted from my log.

I'll start with saying that this is the first Paizo AP I've ran, and I've only read some others, and talked about others with other forumists and gamists. I haven't ran any other modules or campaigns of other sources as well, so this may not be true of other material.
Paizo APs usually cater for a group of 4 players, with low- mid optimization level. They do try to give focus on a specific theme for a campaign, and they divide their campaigns to about 6 modules, each spanning about 3 levels or so, give or take. They do seem to pose some very specific problems though:
1. As a DM, you are basically running someone's else material, which means you are not well familiar with it, nor the design purposes always. As no group is like the other, this means that except for very rare cases, you ALWAYS have to adjust the AP to your group. This may mean little tweaks, or larger ones, but rarely you just run the AP exactly as written.
2. Lack of long term continuity and themes: This stems from different writers writing different parts, with a different focus, and different ideas. This also stems from the fact that the modules are also meant to be potentially played on their own. This leads to a significant lack of inter connection between modules, or keeping major themes going. There are many examples in this campaign:
- The 4 major NPCs of the first module get more and more downplayed as the campaign progresses, with later designers almost writing them off.
- No real buildup for major antagonists (Vorlesh appears briefly in the first module, and then as one battle in the end? The Major opponent of the campaign? Really?)
- Factions and accomplishments get forgotten/ trivialized when inconvenient:
We saved Kenabres! Ok, time to move ahead.
We conquered Drezen! Well, now others rule it, go back to dungeon delving!
We rescued Arulashee, which is built to be a romantic ally! Well, she leaves you on the next module.
We made A demon lord ally! Yeah, forget about her...
It takes a real hard effort to build enough consistency and continuity for players who want it.
3. Many parts are railroaded: Yora touched upon this in another thread, but most of Paizo's modules have a very strict order of things that happen, with only very small places that can be more freely played, and then with quite... crappy support. The ruins under Kenabres have ONE path. The road to Drezen has ONE road. and so on... More then that though, as the modules all assume that the game will progress one way, and demand success at previous efforts. This leaves very little, if any, wiggle room. In our Campaign this mostly became evident after conquering Drezen. The party had a base, with resources, people and more. They had plans, but the modules basically had their idea of what the PCs should be doing, which really didn't fit most.
4. A big problem for our play style, and that of quite a few others I've talked with, is that we have little time for play, and so we value it, and like things to matter. Many of the modules seemed to have quite a great deal of "filler encounters"- which means just battle encounters, usually with little actual threat, just for the sake of earning XP. They aren't important for plot development, they aren't really challenging, not even interesting. Just... Fodder battle XP. A certain kind of play style promotes this, even benefits from this, but not ours.


If you ARE adamant about using PF published material, I would suggest two modules (Not part of adventure paths, but fit enough for a campaign up to about 7th level, self contained):
"To Slay a Dragon"- I played in this one for about half of it. It suits PbP nicely, with a little sandbox, small and short adventures, with fun little twists, and a very interactive small setting. Perfect for a new DM.
"The dragon's demand"- While i haven't played it, it comes highly regarded as one of the best single modules/ small campaigns. It is said to be very simple to run, with lots of room for improv. I think I saw a thread in the forum dealing with it, but I can't remember which.


I have done a little with worldbuilding (mostly with creating places for my characters to be from), but I'm not sure if I'm ready for something on that huge a scale. While it's something I want to do eventually, I feel it might be too ambitious for the first one. While I realize APs may not be for everyone, ideally those who are applying to join are aware that it is an AP, it will feature things APs feature, and they can decide whether or not they want to work with that.

Also, while I would intend to stick with the story provided by the AP, I don't feel apprehensive at the thought of the PCs getting sidetracked and winding up somewhere totally different while I think of ways to eventually get them back on track.

"Get them back on track..." But what if they really don't intend to? In the campaign I ran, the AP assumed quite a lot of things about what the PCs were to do, which really, REALLY didn't correlate with my group's desires and aspiration. In fact, that was the main reason the campaign broke up. The idea is not to "get them back on track"... That implies you have a story to tell, that their major decisions won't matter that much, and that they WILL END UP DOING THAT, whether they like it or not. That fits some players, but some not, even those who may sign for an AP.

Also the 4th point mentioned in the spoiler above is CRUCIAL for PbP- PbP excels in the Expression, Fantasy and sometimes Narrative aesthetics (From the link I sent you), but it is crap dealing with Challenge, which is the major aesthetics of most APs- they are choke full with combats, most of them not really important, and serve just as "filler XP", which just bogs down and kills PbPs. In PbPs you need few battles, really exciting ones, who have MAJOR development significance. NOT "ok, another room with 4 orcs. Lets kill them and get to the next". In fact, that is one of the major reasons why so many APs fall apart in PbP. They are just not built well for the medium, but more for table top...


On choosing Players rather than (or in addition to) Characters - that makes perfect sense. I definitely feel like I am the type of person who would fall into the potential trap of choosing characters whose stories I'm excited about without examining the players themselves more closely. This is mostly because I like storymaking. To me, people who have taken the time to think about backstories, how those backstories shape their personalities, and who have made me feel like I'm looking at a living, breathing person rather than a collection of statistics and numbers will probably like it as well. My question then is, how do you recommend choosing players on a PbP forum where I won't know every person who applies? What "kind" of players should I be looking for? How can I tell when certain players are going to clash with each other?

Change the application process. Instead of asking for what characters they wish to make for the story, I suggest something on the following lines, as I've seen on some rare few PbP games:
1. Explaining not to build characters yet.
In the app, explain you'll be looking for a compatible group, and that will come first, characters will come later. They will be created AFTER the applicants have been chosen for the game.
2. Basic info for the applications:
It starts with 3 segments:
- ask each player to tell a bit about themselves: Age, country, a bit of life history, a bit of gaming history and experience, a bit about hobbies... They can write this freestyle.
- Ask for them to write a bit about 1-2 good experiences in gaming, and 1-2 bad experiences, and explain why each is which. This too, is free style.
- Ask them to pitch you a character concept (Or two). But... not free style- the "pitch" should be in 1-2 paragraphs, not more. Explain that they can easily change the character later on, and this serves both to get to the "core aspects" of the character, and for use in the following stage.
3. Group tasks and hub-hub:
Once everyone got a bit familiarized (This is still in the app process!), give them some tasks. The tasks are meant to check how the people interact, how they work together, what friction may be, who may be compatible, who isn't. These tasks also hep forge the final team better. Some ideas:
- Comment on other character "pitches", and how they might interact with other characters, and the setting. Who would work well? Which pitch may need tweaking/ help? Which is great? Which characters seem to work well together? Who doesn't?
- How did the group meet? Do they know each other before? Do they just meet at the start of the adventure? Do they have a theme? Do they have a name? Do they come from some joint faction or such?
- Trouble shooting: What kind of friction/ conflicts/ problems do the applicants see as possible and how do they propose to solve them?
- Player agreements and PC agreements: This refers to social contracts between the players (Say what happens when someone is absent for awhile, or when they need to make a quick decision fast, or what subject make people uncomfortable so they would prefer them not to be brought up, or what to focus on the game) or characters (How do you distribute loot, how to come to a decision when PCs disagree, what lines the party won't cross, and so on...)
- Helping the DM! Can someone keep track of treasure? Of important clues? Of maps? And so on...
4. Keeping a lively OOC, which is NOT connected to game content!
This is major, both for the application, and for the game itself. This is a social game, but people here are literally from all over the globe. In order to start making bond they need to be able to talk about things NOT game related (Favorite TV shows/ movies, hobbies, and whatever...) This greatly strengthen the group, and helps bond them. In the application process it helps show who have good friendly interactions.
5. Picking the players:
Through out all of these, you should start to get an idea of who you might like to play with, who works well with whom, who is fun, who is cooperative and helpful, who is dependable (Mostly in posting rate), and so on... When you feel ready, choose your first player, and PM them, telling them so, and consulting with them about the next chosen player (I liked X, Y and Z, who do you like? Y is my favorite, but I'm afraid about... What do you think?)
You pick the second player with the first, and repeat the process, PMing him/her, and the three of you ask about a third, a fourth, and so on, till you feel comfortable with your chosen group.
6. Time to get to the actual game!
With the application finished, once you've chosen your group of PLAYERS, you can all set down to creating the actual characters. This shouldn't be too hard, as some concepts have been talked (And possibly altered/ revised and so on). Make this the first real "in game" group project, a joint party creation. It should be fun!

Yeah, this may take some time (Usually a few weeks), but it makes for a much stronger group, a much more "working" group, and a more committed one. The time spent is useful game-wise as well, as the discussion helps with real in game stuff.

Good luck to you!

[Ceralune]

Oh. I actually did play in a campaign where we found an incomplete Deck of Many Things. Surprisingly, most of us came out of it alive. One guy got his soul trapped by some demon, but we hired a guy to get it back (we paid him the remaining cards in the deck). After the first bad thing happened I started summoning monsters to draw cards instead. A lucky Mephit got a +4 enchanted sword that was bound to him (in other words, my character couldn't take it off of him). From that moment on, whenever I summoned Mephits, they had a very small chance to be that same one with the OP sword. xD

And... well of course I don't expect or want my game to fail. But the worry is still there. :c I think I expressed something poorly - I said that writing/planning a campaign takes time. I didn't really mean that I am not willing to put in the time, I meant that creating a campaign out of nothing can be difficult, and take a lot of time. I like the APs because there is a bare-bone structure there, at the least, that I can work with. I do better with building upon something that's already there. For example, I was looking at CotCT, and Gaedren Lamm seems like a really nasty fellow. While the campaign itself (or maybe the somewhat caricatured portraits of him in the book) make him feel like a cartoonish villain, I want to take him in a different direction. I don't mind taking the time to try and understand the world used by the module. I guess that is kind of a lazy way to go about DMing, but this is my first time and I am worried about getting in over my head.

Also, by a lot of the advice I've been getting here, it seems sandboxes are really the only way to go. While I like the idea of a sandbox, I guess it also slightly bothers me that they seem like the only viable thing?

I'm not so much worried about length of the AP; I'll be able to live with myself if my group doesn't complete all of it (which, I guess, brings me back to considering failure).

I don't mind cutting out some of the more "sidequest-like" adventures. In fact, I'll probably invent some smaller quests of my own that relate more to the plot. But again, the key there is that I'm working within an established framework, which I find easier to do than trying to make something out of nothing.

I hadn't considered an alternate application process. I like it, other than that I feel like the general attitude regarding PbP games here has become very noncommittal. People apply for as many games as they can, a lot of the people I've played with only post occasionally in the IC threads and never say anything in the OOC. I've already started a Recruitment for CotCT, so I don't think I'll incorporate it this time around, but I have already included a couple of the things you mentioned, which makes me optimistic. I -probably- will be looking at things like post rate, other games they're in and how they act in those games, how well they communicate with me in the Recruitment thread and respond to my questions, when I'm picking people. I definitely want the OOC to become a place for people to talk about anything and communicate with each other, and I've made that clear in that OP.

[Pugwampy]

The Deck of Many Things. Don't. Use it. DON'T. No. Not even then.

Its fun to try at least once . Its 50/50 awesome or sucky thats rather good gambling odds .

I think it would make life very interesting if you offered a 100 percent positive deck to level 1 players .....just dont tell em you removed the bad cards . 1 card per player only .

If someone does not want to draw a card then dont force em . :smallbiggrin:

[Darth Ultron]

Also, by a lot of the advice I've been getting here, it seems sandboxes are really the only way to go. While I like the idea of a sandbox, I guess it also slightly bothers me that they seem like the only viable thing?

No, not at all. First off the Sandbox idea is just popular and all the ''buzz'', but not with everyone. It is really even more limited to ''most people logging on to RPG web pages and that regularly post things do think sandboxes are the greatest thing ever''. Of course even most of the sandbox fans will admit they don't ''play in a pure sandbox'' and that ''their spin on what a sandbox is has an asterisk after it.

Plenty of games still use the true and time tested things such as planning prepping, stores, plots, arcs and lineal storytelling.



I hadn't considered an alternate application process. I like it, other than that I feel like the general attitude regarding PbP games here has become very noncommittal.

Again, this is just the ''common poster'', like above. It is generally a bad idea to just ''accept'' players at random. So you might need a good process to weed out people. A lot o games do the old ''start with 1,2,3,and 4'' but then ''drop 2 for 5'' and so on...and maybe when you get to ''4, 11, 19 and 25'' you will have a good solid group.



4. Keeping a lively OOC, which is NOT connected to game content!


You need to pick things that you want, and that others will agree too. For example, the above, would make me skip that game. I don't want a ''lively ooc'' and worse I don't like the idea of being forced to chit chat. I've gamed online with people for years (years!) and don't even know simple things about them like their name...

But that is just me....

[PersonMan]

No, not at all. First off the Sandbox idea is just popular and all the ''buzz'', but not with everyone. It is really even more limited to ''most people logging on to RPG web pages and that regularly post things do think sandboxes are the greatest thing ever''. Of course even most of the sandbox fans will admit they don't ''play in a pure sandbox'' and that ''their spin on what a sandbox is has an asterisk after it.

Plenty of games still use the true and time tested things such as planning prepping, stores, plots, arcs and lineal storytelling.

I'd say it depends a lot on player buy-in and such.

If you're running an AP, I'd expect most applicants to be on board the idea of "let's follow the AP's story", so you don't need to worry about people deciding to run off and do X or Y that is completely unrelated.


You need to pick things that you want, and that others will agree too. For example, the above, would make me skip that game. I don't want a ''lively ooc'' and worse I don't like the idea of being forced to chit chat. I've gamed online with people for years (years!) and don't even know simple things about them like their name...

But that is just me....

Saying it up-front, in the recruitment, is probably best for this very reason. I mean, it's better to read something and go "oh, nevermind, not interested" right away, than end up leaving a game because of it later, right?

It also depends on the people involved. Some longer-running games have little to no OOC activity, but I've found that more OOC activity tends to be a sign of a game that can last longer.

[Ualaa]

I would go with a store bought adventure path, for the first one.
You mentioned the Curse of the Crimson Throne, which was recently re-released as a hardcover compilation; I'm not sure how similar (in terms of preparation) it is to Rise of the Runelords.
The anniversary edition of RotR has an absolute ton of preparation for the GM/DM, which is awesome as it showcases a lot of preparation (which is already done for you).

An adventure path won't necessarily run perfectly for your group. You'll want to read through it, probably twice just reading.
That will get you the flavor, the direction, the theme, and a sense of the progression of where you start and where you end up.
Then read the section you think your group is going to be using.
Don't be afraid to modify things.
It can help to search for groups that have played through your adventure, to get what has worked or not worked for them.

One thing worth noting, is that you play the monsters not the characters.
A prior DM of mine told amazing stories, and had multi-page readouts at several points, and while the stories were absolutely amazing, there were two flaws with that approach.
The monologue is time where the players are not playing.
Some of that is okay, but you want the players to be active.
The other flaw was that the speech would say, you got to the town, went to the blacksmith and talked about whatever, and you noticed this and that.
Then you went to this town and were there for three weeks; in that time you did...
Except that the players are in control of their characters, so they should decide to stop and chat with the gate guards, to learn what is plaguing the town, not be told that they did it already.
You can have the gate guards initiate a conversation with the players, but they should choose to pursue it or not, rather than you tell them they have done this and that.
You can build that as backstory, if so desired, but during the game they play their characters.

It can help to have a minor/medium combat, very early in a session.
That gets the players really into the game.
It can be a rather standard encounter, say close to (or a couple CR points above) the party level, so it isn't necessarily challenging or life threatening.
But it doesn't have to be easy either.
Some kind of a random thing, usually; potentially a bear/owlbear/troll/whatever attacks them as they travel through the forest.
But just because it is often random, doesn't mean that it is random all the time -- it could seem random at the time, but may be a crucial element that is given as a seemingly meaningless encounter early.

In general, I end up with as much preparation work for a session, as the length of a session is going to be.
Lately, I've been running pre-run campaigns.
But building your own adventure is more rewarding (and time consuming).
Any prep work you do, is useful.
If you build a random cave complex, which the players can 'find' when they hunt the bandits... and they don't go that way, it is not wasted time.
Maybe they encounter a Dragon in three sessions, or later that session even, and now you have a cave complex for them.
Our group recently ran through almost half of Rappan Athuk -- and then we switched, as some of the players were not enjoying it -- while I didn't use 60% of it, I have a massive number of caves, caverns, mini-dungeons, monsters, NPCs, an underground goblin town, a surface town, etc...
All of that can be pulled out of my hat, when the situation calls for it.

You are your player's eyes and ears.
The more descriptive you can be, of their surroundings, the better the game goes.
You can describe them entering through a doorway, into a 10 ft. wide and 80 ft. long hallway.
Or you can describe the smell of the stale air, the clinging of the cobwebs as the spiders scuttle away from the torches, the feeling of the tunnel closing in on them, the crumbling stone beneath their feet.
You bring the world alive.
While a new players rogue may be going purely mechanically, with their search for traps check... and the check does determine how good they are at that aspect of the game...
You can describe what they examine, and reveal more information based on their check.
It can be a good idea to have a series of d20 rolls from the players, on a piece of paper and use their next check (then cross it off) if you want them to make a check but don't want to tell them something is important.
If you ask someone to roll a Sense Motive, you're telling them the NPC is not being honest.
The same goes for a Perception -- the group is often going to take your hint that something is off and search and search until they find it; you can avoid that level of metagaming by having secret checks, based on already rolled numbers.
Or simply ask for their bonus to a skill; players like to roll their own stuff, but sometimes they don't know the success or lack there-of from the skill check, but if the player rolls a 3 on a check they will likely ask their buddy to come over and check it out too... if they roll a 19, they're happy with an 'accurate' skill check.
If those checks are behind a screen, they know they think something is off -- if you tell them so, and that is based off of a high check result, without them knowing that mechanically speaking the check was high.

Winging it is good too.
You can have an idea where something is going.
But not necessarily know where that is.
Take a couple of notes along the way.
If you describe the inn keeper as overweight but friendly, and give him a name and one or two personality traits or quirks, maybe a catch phrase...
Having those notes handy, when the players visit in five sessions, makes the world seem cohesive and a real place.
Just because you're winging it, and doing pure improvisation, doesn't mean the players won't suspect that this is a crucial plot point.
Sometimes it might be, but other times it is purely a side quest or unrelated.

It can help to have your players give some kind of a history of their characters.
Then you can tie a few things together.
Maybe have everyone already know each other.
But don't just say, you've been traveling companions for the last six years.
Have each of them develop two things that tie them to the others.
And have those be unique... not just we were imprisoned in the salt mines by the evil king and we all like ale at such and such an inn.
Instead, perhaps two of them were business partners in a failed caravan operation -- the merchant who hired them blames them for the failed venture and is hunting them with thugs for the value of their lost cargo.
Two of them share the same ex-lover, who you can use as a recurring NPC, whom may be kidnapped sixteen sessions from now, and will elicit a strong response from those two players should you have developed that aspect of the game in the first fifteen sessions.

In the end, experience is king.
But you're only going to get it by diving in.
You can learn a little from every encounter, whether you run it or your players do something interesting.
There isn't really a right or wrong.
Diving in, is the best way to learn.

[CaPtMalHammer]

DM Advice:

1) Breath and keep calm... No matter what happens the players will look to you the DM as the person to steer them in the right direction.

2) If using an AP.. follow the script but don't forget your players if they do something that is off the wall. Embrace it. Don't worry about embellishing scenes in the AP. If a player has a really cool idea don't dismiss it because its not on the written page but rather write it into the AP. The most important thing is to have fun.

3) Make sure you read the rules and have the rule books at hand. They understand its your first game and most good gamers and friends will understand if you need to look something up once in awhile to get the answer. I would know as much as you can but sometimes smaller rules pop up.

4) Rules grey areas. Each and every system including pathfinder have grey areas where things are not spelled out fully. Your the DM you can make a ruling that is thematic and the way you see it. Just explain to them this is how you are going to handle this and your will be good to go.

5) If the AP story is a little dry and you find your players dosing off or losing interest. Spice it up. Add in some Roleplaying oppurtunities or a NPC that isn't in the AP. Maybe a wandering begger or merchant. Just make sure the experience is memorable.

6) Character Death: This is tough and usually not an issue in an AP game but can happen. Sometimes dice hate players or the players do something so out of the box it backfires. This can be tough. But don't white wash it. Tell a story. make the last moments of the character memorable. Paint a cinematic picture of the death. Give it time to sink in. Maybe hold a memorial service or name an NPC building after the character. After the emotions of that moment die down. take the actual players out for a drink or milkshake and hang out as friends. In the end we are all friends playing a game for fun. :)

7) Challenging combats. The combats in an AP are usually balanced if not usually in the players favor. Just watch the CR's and ECL. more then a 1 or 2 level difference in either direction can lead to a bad combat. The monster involved also can be made more challenging with envirmoments. Using what is around will make a more immersive game.

8) Try and make sure each player has a chance to shine. a big mistake new DM's make is they have one PC that is more interesting to them and so they focus the story on that one persons character. this can lead to feelings from the others of being left out. Setting up moments in every games where one member of the party can really shine is great. Even if not intentional. If a player roles a huge crit out of nowhere you can really play that up and build that player's interest in your game.

9) Watch the level of loot given. Again in an AP not usually an issue because the treasure is predefined. But there is nothing that will end a game quicker or make people unhappy when a DM gives an overpowered item to a player without realizing it and they cant get it back. you have a couple of options either in story make everyone else match that power level or in some way remove the item in a fair way. Usually exchanging it for a lesser one to balance. this can be done by having an NPC show up looking for the item and offering a trade. Or come up with some other reason. A story reason for removing the item from the equation that also furthers the charecters experience and gets them other loot is far better then saying woops I messed up lol:)

10: Finally and this is the most important advice ever: you are friends and there to have fun. Don't let things get out of hand where that can become an issue. Sometimes emotions get high. Its the DM who needs to see this and if you need to end a game early to let people cool off or calm down. don't hesitate. there is nothing in a RP game that is worth losing a friends over.