PrC balancing discussion

[zergling.exe]

To save the least favorite PrC thread, argue about it here instead. For those of you who are new, the gist is that spellcasting classes lose nothing, and in fact only tend to gain from prestige-ing out, while non spellcasters have to choose which class features they want. Argument started around here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507209-What-is-your-least-favorite-prestige-class/page2&p=21434527#post21434527).

[Nifft]

Give class features to full casters so PrCs can cost something by simply not giving or progressing those features.

The bare minimum might be to give Fighter feat progression to all base classes, and not give that bonus feat progression to PrCs. This also has the advantage of removing any excuse to keep the Fighter base class.

Figure out if each PrC is caster-centric or not. There might be some justification for some half-caster PrCs to exist, but only if they're not supposed to be used by characters who are primarily casters.

(Also remove stuff like Incantatrix.)

[Luccan]

Give class features to full casters so PrCs can cost something by simply not giving or progressing those features.
So wait... to balance caster PrCs to other PrCs we should... make casters better and remove all loss of caster levels?

I hate to parrot, but as Rizban pointed out in the other thread, not everyone wants to play a caster. Even people who usually play casters don't always want to play casters. Making all their PrCs better and their base classes even more superior seems kinda like making it worse. Actually rereading your post, I'm not even sure what you're saying. Toss all caster PrCs except a few? Power them all up? It's a little hard to follow

I'm not even gonna touch the "get rid of Fighters" thing

[AvatarVecna]

Give class features to full casters so PrCs can cost something by simply not giving or progressing those features.

The bare minimum might be to give Fighter feat progression to all base classes, and not give that bonus feat progression to PrCs. This also has the advantage of removing any excuse to keep the Fighter base class.

Figure out if each PrC is caster-centric or not. There might be some justification for some half-caster PrCs to exist, but only if they're not supposed to be used by characters who are primarily casters.

(Also remove stuff like Incantatrix.)

I don't think taking out the Incantatrix, or things like it, would solve the problem. Incantatrix is infamous for making Wizards, Sorcerers, Beguilers, and even Bard/Sublime Chords better than they were, but any of those builds would still be pretty powerful without Incantatrix. I feel that a PrC focused around metamagic is appropriate, and would be great if it was more niche than "it's a straight upgrade for a normal wizard" (say, make it a half or 3/4 casting progression rather than full), but when casting as a whole is poorly balanced, throwing Incantatrix into the pile doesn't really make things less balanced, it just makes the complete imbalance more obvious.

[Zanos]

Are there base classes that aren't spellcasting classes that don't have better options in the prestige classes? Some of the other subsystems that didn't get a lot of support might not have a lot of options, but the prestige class options for other characters are generally better than the base classes as well.

[Troacctid]

Are there base classes that aren't spellcasting classes that don't have better options in the prestige classes? Some of the other subsystems that didn't get a lot of support might not have a lot of options, but the prestige class options for other characters are generally better than the base classes as well.
Classes that don't want to prestige, you say? Artificer and Dread Necromancer for sure. Beguiler, if you don't count the standard 1-level dip to fiddle with Advanced Learning timing. Duskblade, probably—you can go Abjurant Champion, but it doesn't accomplish much. Druid barely misses because of Planar Shepherd, but I think gets there if you don't count that nonsense. Urban Druid might be there as well. Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, and Dragonfire Adept only miss because of theurge options, so they're at least close. If you go into epic levels, I think many classes become more profitable to take to 20 because you can gain access to bonus [Epic] feats by taking their epic progression, which is a big deal for e.g. Warlocks, who have some truly monstrous epic feats.

[ryu]

Classes that don't want to prestige, you say? Artificer and Dread Necromancer for sure. Beguiler, if you don't count the standard 1-level dip to fiddle with Advanced Learning timing. Duskblade, probably—you can go Abjurant Champion, but it doesn't accomplish much. Druid barely misses because of Planar Shepherd, but I think gets there if you don't count that nonsense. Urban Druid might be there as well. Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, and Dragonfire Adept only miss because of theurge options, so they're at least close. If you go into epic levels, I think many classes become more profitable to take to 20 because you can gain access to bonus [Epic] feats by taking their epic progression, which is a big deal for e.g. Warlocks, who have some truly monstrous epic feats.

If you're sticking in a class to 20 for epic feats wouldn't it be more efficient to just be a particularly old dragonwrought kobold? Then you can multiclass/PRC/LA giving template all you want and still get your epic feats.

[Troacctid]

If you're sticking in a class to 20 for epic feats wouldn't it be more efficient to just be a particularly old dragonwrought kobold? Then you can multiclass/PRC/LA giving template all you want and still get your epic feats.
Not to gain access to the feats—to get more of them. An Epic Warlock, for example, gains a bonus [Epic] feat at 23rd level and every 3 levels thereafter. The value of those feats is so high that there's a very good case for going full Warlock 20 for that reason alone.

Dragonwrought Kobold doesn't help much in this case because the feats you want are skill-gated, so you can't take them early even if you're a dragon. The only exception is Morpheme Savant, which you could take at level 18, so, okay, sure, I guess.

[AvatarVecna]

If you're sticking in a class to 20 for epic feats wouldn't it be more efficient to just be a particularly old dragonwrought kobold? Then you can multiclass/PRC/LA giving template all you want and still get your epic feats.

It would be less efficient if you're playing in a game where the DM and collective group consider dragonwrought kobolds stinky cheesemonsters.

Still, probably better to take a good PrC with an epic progression to 10 and then advance that instead. Or both, if you're going gestalt.

[ryu]

Eh skills can be optimized.

As for ''cheese'' I think we've long established that short of making one's self literally impossible to kill rather than simply impossible to kill by any reasonable and most unreasonable means, I just don't care about about that concept. Unless we're talking literal cheese in which case we can start discussing recipes. Actually I want some fondue now. Gonna rectify.

[AvatarVecna]

Eh skills can be optimized.

As for ''cheese'' I think we've long established that short of making one's self literally impossible to kill rather than simply impossible to kill by any reasonable and most unreasonable means, I just don't care about about that concept. Unless we're talking literal cheese in which case we can start discussing recipes. Actually I want some fondue now. Gonna rectify.

Pre-20 that opinion is more relevant, if nothing else than to online discussions of balance and power. Post-20, stinky cheese either gets the boot, or things like unlimited epic feat generators, epic spellcasting, and metamagic bull**** disintegrate the concept of game balance. Throwing the stinky cheese out allows for discussion of epic stuff without just handwaving away challenges with "Pun-Pun deals with it, while his cohort continues RPing".

[ryu]

Pre-20 that opinion is more relevant, if nothing else than to online discussions of balance and power. Post-20, stinky cheese either gets the boot, or things like unlimited epic feat generators, epic spellcasting, and metamagic bull**** disintegrate the concept of game balance. Throwing the stinky cheese out allows for discussion of epic stuff without just handwaving away challenges with "Pun-Pun deals with it, while his cohort continues RPing".

Pun-pun falls into that previous category of literally impossible rather than practically impossible. Do keep in mind I'm still playing a game. It's just that the game is eleven dimensional hyper chess where the designers intended checkers and most people prefer normal chess.

[Cosi]

If caster PrCs cost spellcasting, people won't take them because they make their characters worse. As such, they should not cost spellcasting because the alternative makes caster characters less diverse, and resultantly less interesting.

This won't make balance problems substantively worse, because the best caster PrCs already advance casting fully (Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper). There may be marginal changes, but there are pulls in both directions.

If you really feel that casters should pay something for entering a PrC, charge them spell slots for abilities. Charging spellcasting levels results in an ever-increasing cost in terms of lost spell slots for fixed abilities, and/or creates problematic incentives to bail on PrCs early or to trade power now for later.

The problem that non-casters are underpowered is different from the problem that caster PrCs are bad, and using one as a back-door solution to the other is bad design. You should solve a problem by addressing the subsystem that has that problem, not by changing other subsystems to fall in line with the broken one.


I disagree that it's a "variable cost". It's always exactly one spellcasting level. Regardless of how high a level you get, you're only ever 1 level behind for each lost level.

But that level is worth different things at different points. At 2nd level, a Wizard that is one level behind has lost a 0th level spell slot and a 1st level spell slot. At 7th, he's lost a 1st level spell slot and a 4th level spell slot. At 20th, he's lost an 8th level spell slot and a 9th level spell slot. There's no one (non-scaling) thing that's a fair trade for all those things.


Before proceeding: High tier 3 to low tier 2 is my assumed balance point.

So we'll be talking about the balance point of the Beguiler's infinite army of mind controlled minions and the Crusader's ability to deal marginally more damage. The tiers aren't balanced (sometimes people don't even claim they are), and you shouldn't use them to balance things.


So, you can't simply gestalt everything with Sorcerer and call it good. People at my table would balk far more at that more than you do at my suggestion that it's okay for casters to lose levels.

You can't fix the game perfectly and quickly. If you want to fix the game quickly, you have to fix it by balancing people to the level of the monsters. Casters are balanced to the monsters, non-casters aren't. Any fix that is less effort than "rewrite the entire MM from the ground up" must bring characters up, and the fastest way to do that is gestalt.


Having actually played a Tome Fighter, I would put them at a good Tier 3. They're right about where I would like the balance the system. Wizards are still better.

If you think the Tome Fighter can't contribute to a game with a Wizard, tell that to Frank, not to me. He's the one who wrote the damn thing with the explicit goal of "contribute to parties with Wizards". If you think he failed, provide him with some constructive criticism.


I don't think taking out the Incantatrix, or things like it, would solve the problem.

The Incantatrix is not that insane. Unless you're using Persistent Spell to stack dozens of buffs, it's mostly not that good. But if you are using Persistent Spell to stack dozens of buffs, you rapidly become very powerful. The problem with the Incantatrix isn't so much the Incantatrix as it is Persistent Spell, or more broadly the extreme power of low duration buffs (this is also why teleport ambushes are so good). If you couldn't take that one feat, Incantatrix would become a fairly niche prestige class that mostly got used by people trying to make Mailman type characters.


Classes that don't want to prestige, you say? Artificer and Dread Necromancer for sure. Beguiler, if you don't count the standard 1-level dip to fiddle with Advanced Learning timing.

Beguiler and Dread Necromancer absolutely want to prestige. Even if you don't want to use Rainbow Servant to grab the entire Cleric list, you still want to take the first level of any class that grants a prestige domain at 1st, because that's the equivalent of all your advanced learning in one level. Beguiler can also get good value out of Shadowcraft Mage, and it has enough buffs to consider Incantatrix.


If you go into epic levels, I think many classes become more profitable to take to 20 because you can gain access to bonus [Epic] feats by taking their epic progression, which is a big deal for e.g. Warlocks, who have some truly monstrous epic feats.

Setting aside the fact that epic is broken and insane, epic feats are mostly less impressive than PrC features. Perfect Two Weapon Fighting is not as good as Shadow Illusion.

[Nifft]

Classes that don't want to prestige, you say? Artificer and Dread Necromancer for sure. Beguiler, if you don't count the standard 1-level dip to fiddle with Advanced Learning timing. Duskblade, probably—you can go Abjurant Champion, but it doesn't accomplish much. Druid barely misses because of Planar Shepherd, but I think gets there if you don't count that nonsense. Urban Druid might be there as well. Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage, and Dragonfire Adept only miss because of theurge options, so they're at least close. If you go into epic levels, I think many classes become more profitable to take to 20 because you can gain access to bonus [Epic] feats by taking their epic progression, which is a big deal for e.g. Warlocks, who have some truly monstrous epic feats.

Exactly right.

The classes that don't want PrCs by default are the classes which have valuable class features.

Give everyone valuable class features, and it will become possible to create PrCs which are balanced for those classes.

(Also get rid of the cruft at the bottom of the base-class balance scale. Either make non-casters awesome somehow, or make them disappear.)

[Troacctid]

Beguiler and Dread Necromancer absolutely want to prestige. Even if you don't want to use Rainbow Servant to grab the entire Cleric list, you still want to take the first level of any class that grants a prestige domain at 1st, because that's the equivalent of all your advanced learning in one level. Beguiler can also get good value out of Shadowcraft Mage, and it has enough buffs to consider Incantatrix.
Beguilers like to dip, but they generally can't prestige properly without losing their skill points. On a skillmonkey class, that's a real drawback. Maybe something like Urban Savant or Halfling Whistler works, I guess. Certainly not Rainbow Servant and Shadowcraft Mage, though—they've got real downsides.

Dread Necromancers can't prestige without nerfing their animate dead, since Undead Mastery makes it key off class level rather than caster level. They're pretty much priced into Dread Necromancer 20.

Oh, one more that doesn't want to prestige: Erudite. Prestige classes don't advance UPPD and, worse, trigger the multiclass restriction that kills your ability to learn new powers, so generally you want to stay single-classed.

[Cosi]

Beguilers like to dip, but they generally can't prestige properly without losing their skill points. On a skillmonkey class, that's a real drawback. Maybe something like Urban Savant or Halfling Whistler works, I guess. Certainly not Rainbow Servant and Shadowcraft Mage, though—they've got real downsides.

You're a skill monkey with Int based casting. Even assuming a comparatively modest 18 Int, you're looking at 6 skill points/level for even something like Rainbow Servant. That's enough for Concentration, Spellcraft, and four random skills. Considering that you get spells to cover some skills as well, I'm not worried.

I don't know what the hell you think the "downsides" of Rainbow Servant or Shadowcraft Mage are. Rainbow Servant's Prestige Domains are the equal of Advanced Learning, which was the only real reason to keep taking Beguiler levels. Oh, and you get spontaneous casting off the entire Cleric list. Shadowcraft Mage "just" gives you the ability to emulate an entire school of magic (and some useful parts of another), plus some minor benefits and 4+Int skills.


Dread Necromancers can't prestige without nerfing their animate dead, since Undead Mastery makes it key off class level rather than caster level. They're pretty much priced into Dread Necromancer 20.

Caster Dread Necromancers can just PrC out before 8th. If you never get Undead Mastery, you never get your control pool hosed.

Also, the hosing is a pretty massive exaggeration. You get your control pool set to Class Level * (4 + Cha mod). The normal cap for animate dead is 80 HD at 20th, which you hit at 8th with a Cha of 22. If you can manage 22 Cha (for example, by buying a +4 item) you suffer no ill effect for PrCing out at 20th, and at every earlier level you have a larger control pool.

[Endarire]

Incantatrix and Persistent Spell were printed in the same book. I think the devs had some idea that they would interact and how!

[Nifft]

Incantatrix and Persistent Spell were printed in the same book. I think the devs had some idea that they would interact and how!

They should have known.

That doesn't mean they did know.

[AvatarVecna]

Incantatrix and Persistent Spell were printed in the same book. I think the devs had some idea that they would interact and how!

This is giving the designers an awful lot of credit, I think.

[ZamielVanWeber]

This is giving the designers an awful lot of credit, I think.

I love reading books with multiple authors where it is very clear their communication was poor.

Honestly, as far as I am concerned spellcasting is a class feature. It may not be flavorful but boy is it useful. Prestige Classes that grant non-casting class features without affecting casting class features always annoyed me and I have myself, and have seen others, take PrCs that granted less than full casting because they were super flavorful, so losing casting is not the end of the world.

[Zanos]

I'm pretty sure the designers largely thought that spells were a class feature on their own. In the dead levels article, they mentioned that the levels where casters got new spell levels shouldn't be considered dead.

I guess they weren't communicating much.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm pretty sure the designers largely thought that spells were a class feature on their own. In the dead levels article, they mentioned that the levels where casters got new spell levels shouldn't be considered dead.

I guess they weren't communicating much.

I always got the feeling the people designing PrCs did not think so, or at leat put spellcasting on par with full BAB as a class feature.

[ExLibrisMortis]

1) Classes should be interesting.

1.1) That includes prestige classes.
1.2) As-is, many classes are not interesting.

1.2.1) Look at the fighter.

2) Some classes lose nothing by prestiging.

2.1) This is because they have no class features to lose.

2.1.1) This is independant of proposition 3.

2.1.1.1) Look at fighters and wizards.
2.1.2) This makes them boring.

2.1.2.1) This in direct opposition to proposition 1.

3) There is a big imbalance between classes.

3.1) This is nearly entirely due to spellcasting being opposed by 'mundane' class features.

3.1.1) Spellcasting is interesting.

3.1.1.1) There's so many! They do so much! The variety! And they interact with stuff!
3.1.2) Mundane class features are, by and large, not interesting.

3.1.2.1) Look at Uncanny Dodge or fighter bonus feats.
3.2) This is independant of propositions 1 and 2.

3.2.1) Look at the wizard and the fighter.

4) If the situation described in proposition 2 is undesirable, then, taking into account propositions 1.2, 2.1.2, and 3.2, it makes sense to solve these interconnected problems at once.

4.1) That is, without touching 3.2, as per that proposition's content.
4.2) The situation intended in proposition 4 can be solved by adding interesting class features to all classes that lack them.

4.2.1) Proposition 1.2 would no longer hold, by adding interesting class features.
4.2.2) Proposition 2.1.2 would no longer hold, being essentially a duplicate of 1.2.

4.2.2.1) Boring is taking to be the opposite of interesting.
4.3) As per proposition 3.1.1.1, making class features varied and interactive makes them more interesting.

4.3.1) Combining proposition 4.2 and 4.3, varied and interactive class features should be added to all classes that lack them.

With thanks and apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein, who would've done it rigorously.

[Stealth Marmot]

I think one of the "costs" of full spellcasting PrCs is the pre-requisites. Most full spellcasting classes I see require either throwing feats away into things like Skill focus (Knowledge X), and some have requirements that would require some form of multiclassing unless you really min-max your way around it. Also, unless specifically noted, things like Familiar bonuses and Turn undead don't progress with the class, so there is a cost there sometimes. For clerics, some prestige classes have worse saves or worse hit dies or even worse BAB.

Does that make them balanced? Not really. But at least it makes it a little more difficult to take the PrCs, and usually their spellcasting and style end up having to conform to the PrC, potentially limiting them.

[Muggins]

Not to parrot what's already been said, but adding something - even something small - to the basic class features of a wizard or cleric would do wonders. It doesn't have to be big, just noticable. Like how a Dread Necromancer might not want to prestige out on account of their necromantic abilities, or even how an Archivist might stay pure for a knowledge focus.

Just think about how many ACFs there are which are never taken, but which would be perfect for this. Variant familiar forms and reserve feats for a sorcerer, specialist abilities for wizards between their bonus feat "progression," or turning/wildshaping feats for a druid. I know adding feats is hardly a class feature - look at fighter - but maybe taking a page out of Paizo's playbook wouldn't be such a bad idea here.

[ryu]

Not to parrot what's already been said, but adding something - even something small - to the basic class features of a wizard or cleric would do wonders. It doesn't have to be big, just noticable. Like how a Dread Necromancer might not want to prestige out on account of their necromantic abilities, or even how an Archivist might stay pure for a knowledge focus.

Just think about how many ACFs there are which are never taken, but which would be perfect for this. Variant familiar forms and reserve feats for a sorcerer, specialist abilities for wizards between their bonus feat "progression," or turning/wildshaping feats for a druid. I know adding feats is hardly a class feature - look at fighter - but maybe taking a page out of Paizo's playbook wouldn't be such a bad idea here.

To be fair wizard 5 to get spontaneous divination and thus qualify for versatile spellcaster is actually pretty great. If more stuff that generally useful existed exclusive to base classes you'd see less focus on prestiging. It would be people using resources to specialize in something their class is good at without drastically weakening everything that isn't specific thing, as opposed to using resources to upgrade your base class.

[AvatarVecna]

Not to parrot what's already been said, but adding something - even something small - to the basic class features of a wizard or cleric would do wonders. It doesn't have to be big, just noticable. Like how a Dread Necromancer might not want to prestige out on account of their necromantic abilities, or even how an Archivist might stay pure for a knowledge focus.

Just think about how many ACFs there are which are never taken, but which would be perfect for this. Variant familiar forms and reserve feats for a sorcerer, specialist abilities for wizards between their bonus feat "progression," or turning/wildshaping feats for a druid. I know adding feats is hardly a class feature - look at fighter - but maybe taking a page out of Paizo's playbook wouldn't be such a bad idea here.

Pathfinder does this kind of thing well, I think - giving real class features to the base classes rather than just making a PrC tailored to a specific concept. Not only do they give the base classes real class features, but the archetype system allows for a great deal of mechanical diversity between members of the same class based on which route they're going down.

[Troacctid]

You're a skill monkey with Int based casting. Even assuming a comparatively modest 18 Int, you're looking at 6 skill points/level for even something like Rainbow Servant. That's enough for Concentration, Spellcraft, and four random skills. Considering that you get spells to cover some skills as well, I'm not worried.

I don't know what the hell you think the "downsides" of Rainbow Servant or Shadowcraft Mage are. Rainbow Servant's Prestige Domains are the equal of Advanced Learning, which was the only real reason to keep taking Beguiler levels. Oh, and you get spontaneous casting off the entire Cleric list. Shadowcraft Mage "just" gives you the ability to emulate an entire school of magic (and some useful parts of another), plus some minor benefits and 4+Int skills.
You lose skills. That's a downside. If you don't care about skills, why are you even a beguiler instead of a wizard, right?


Caster Dread Necromancers can just PrC out before 8th. If you never get Undead Mastery, you never get your control pool hosed.
You also never get the substantial boost it offers, which is an extremely powerful ability for a necromancer.


Also, the hosing is a pretty massive exaggeration. You get your control pool set to Class Level * (4 + Cha mod). The normal cap for animate dead is 80 HD at 20th, which you hit at 8th with a Cha of 22. If you can manage 22 Cha (for example, by buying a +4 item) you suffer no ill effect for PrCing out at 20th, and at every earlier level you have a larger control pool.
No, if you prestige out at 8 with 22 Cha, then your cap at level 20 is 80 instead of the 200 that it would have been if you'd stuck with the class. That's 120 HD's worth of undead you've given up.

[Cosi]

You lose skills. That's a downside.

You lose four points worth of skills, and you keep all the skill-replacing spells (e.g. greater invisibility) that you already had. That doesn't stack up well against what Rainbow Servant, Shadowcraft Mage, or even "a bunch of PrC dips for Prestige Domains" give you.


You also never get the substantial boost it offers, which is an extremely powerful ability for a necromancer.

Which you presumably don't care (as much) about if you are a casting focused character, rather than one focused on undead leadership.


No, if you prestige out at 8 with 22 Cha, then your cap at level 20 is 80 instead of the 200 that it would have been if you'd stuck with the class. That's 120 HD's worth of undead you've given up.

Sure, not advancing a base class doesn't give you that class's features. But that's super obviously not the argument you made. You said "nerfing" not "not getting a buff". In any case, while PrCing out doesn't get you that, not PrCing out doesn't get you whatever a PrC gets you (e.g. all Cleric spells).

[Troacctid]

It's an opportunity cost, is the point. There's a tradeoff. You're incentivized to stick with the base class enough that prestiging isn't an obvious choice.