Should long bow an exotic weapon

[jk7275]

A common point brought up in discussions comparing crossbows to long bows is that it can take years training someone to use long bows. Now as it can take years shouldn't it be an exotic weapon

[Marlowe]

No. Because Crossbows are SIMPLE weapons.:smallconfused:

For what it's worth, the training differential is already allowed for.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Definitely not. It takes years to -master- the longbow. If it takes more than a couple weeks to learn how to use one at all, the student is probably mentally or physically impaired in some way that made trying to teach them an exercise in futility from go.

[jk7275]

Definitely not. It takes years to -master- the longbow. If it takes more than a couple weeks to learn how to use one at all, the student is probably mentally or physically impaired in some way that made trying to teach them an exercise in futility from go.

As you said it takes years to master the long bow which is why I wondered if it should be placed with exoctic weapons instead of martial. If you are learning the long bow do you have the time to learn all the other martial weapons listed along with whatever skills you took? Based on what I read I have my doubts. The impression I got was that you start at a young age and that is pretty much all you learn, now if I have the wrong impression then I like to be corrected

[Cwymbran-San]

As you said it takes years to master the long bow which is why I wondered if it should be placed with exoctic weapons instead of martial. If you are learning the long bow do you have the time to learn all the other martial weapons listed along with whatever skills you took? Based on what I read I have my doubts. The impression I got was that you start at a young age and that is pretty much all you learn, now if I have the wrong impression then I like to be corrected

One could deem a longsword an exotic weapon by the same token. It takes years to "master" it, meaning you have achieved an extraordinary control of your weeapons behaviour. Yet the basic techniques are rather easily learned: Lift sword above head, swing down with as much power as possible in the general direction of the enemy. Or: Lift sword, point towards enemy, stab forward. Quite simple. But to master every possible angle, direction, weight distribution, pivoting while delivering the stroke...that takes much longer.

Same is true for the longbow: the basics are easily learned (nock, draw, aim, release), but it takes a master (represented by a high BAB and possibly feats) to correctly calculate distance and wind into the shot and still aim precisely enough to hit the unprotected spot on the dragons' hide...

I believe, martial weapon is still in order.

[zergling.exe]

To go even deeper, weapon proficiency should probably be skills at the most, with different weapons costing different amounts of skill points.

[ShurikVch]

A common point brought up in discussions comparing crossbows to long bows is that it can take years training someone to use long bows. Now as it can take years shouldn't it be an exotic weaponLet's don't forget: training to be Fighter may take up to 6 years (and even Barbarian - up to 4 years) - plenty of time to learn usage of bows

And character who just taken MWP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#martialWeaponProficiency) (longbow) can claim he/she secretly trained in archery for years, just never used it in combat

The worst offender there is a non-proficient weapon usage: "-4 to hit" doesn't even start to describe the issue - bow is one of the very few weapons which are almost completely harmless in hands of untrained person

In addition, Martial/Exotic weapon difference also indicating how wide-spread the weapon in question.
Longbows were pretty common.
(Still, it doesn't explain necessity of EWP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#exoticWeaponProficiency) for Bastard Sword (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#swordBastard). Or why inhabitants of Kara-Tur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-Tur) and Rokugan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rokugan) are need EWP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#exoticWeaponProficiency) to use their local weapons. Ah, whatever!.. :smallsigh:)


It takes years to -master- the longbow. If it takes more than a couple weeks to learn how to use one at all, the student is probably mentally or physically impaired in some way that made trying to teach them an exercise in futility from go.Unless you mean bows intended for small game hunting (or toy bows) - you are wrong.
Real combat longbows have draw weight no less than 80 lbf (longbows found at Mary Rose (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Rose) were up to 180); untrained person will be physically incapable to draw such weight, and thus - unable to shoot at all!
"Couple weeks" wouldn't cut it - not even close!
(Even the really strong people (say, strongmen) wouldn't be able to do it without sufficient training - because exertion of drawing a bow is very different from lifting weights.)

[Inevitability]

The weapon categories do not say anything about how difficult to 'master' a specific weapon is. Bastard swords are exotic, for one, and those are definitely not harder to master than scythes.

What the weapon categories do is give a benchmark for how easily one could have learned the basics of a specific weapon, both in terms of the weapon's complexity and its availability.

To illustrate: daggers are both easy to use and find, so almost all classes are proficient in them. Something like a flail is much harder to use effectively, in addition to being quite uncommon, so these are martial weapons.

Similarly, a barbarian knows the basics of a lot of weapons, but probably hasn't had the chance to train with the less known ones (though he could if he wanted). Therefore, barbarians have proficiency in martial weapons but not exotic ones.

Monks, on the other hand, learn to use much more obscure weapons as part of their training while lacking the practice with more 'common' weapons. Therefore, they are proficient with several exotic weapons but lack blanket martial proficiency.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless you mean bows intended for small game hunting (or toy bows) - you are wrong.
Real combat longbows have draw weight no less than 80 lbf (longbows found at Mary Rose (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Rose) were up to 180); untrained person will be physically incapable to draw such weight, and thus - unable to shoot at all!
"Couple weeks" wouldn't cut it - not even close!
(Even the really strong people (say, strongmen) wouldn't be able to do it without sufficient training - because exertion of drawing a bow is very different from lifting weights.)

Remember that the game mechanics are rough approximations. The longbow on table in chapter 7 of the PHB is a bow that is long, not necessarily an english composite longbow. Indeed, composite longbows are actually a separate entry.

Killing a soft-target (read; virtually all game and unarmored foes) doesn't take much more than about 60lbs of draw-weight. Most grown men can draw such a bow with decent effort and the actual mechanics of nock, aim, and release really aren't at all complicated. Mastering such details as adequately leading a shot, accounting for extreme drop at great range, and adjusting for wind-drift are the things that take years to master.

[Barstro]

bow is one of the very few weapons which are almost completely harmless in hands of untrained person

Nah. You're thinking "whip". Any grape juice drinking mouth breather in summer camp can fire a rubber-tipped arrow in [insert fake Indian tribe name] summer camp. Getting a whip to break the sound barrier in the correct spot is well beyond that ability.


Bastard swords are exotic, for one, and those are definitely not harder to master than scythes.
Bastard Swords are effectively "martial" two-handed weapons. It's the extra "exotic" training that allows someone to use it in just one hand.

A weapon's category is based on the effort needed for semi-effective use. As mentioned; "expertise" is where BAB, etc. comes in.

[ShurikVch]

The longbow on table in chapter 7 of the PHB is a bow that is long, not necessarily an english composite longbow. Indeed, composite longbows are actually a separate entry.Note: "english composite longbow" never existed: English longbow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow) isn't composite - it made from a single piece of wood. Composite bow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow) is something completely different.
I used info for english longbows, because those are the easiest to find. If you have different info...

Killing a soft-target (read; virtually all game and unarmored foes) doesn't take much more than about 60lbs of draw-weight. Most grown men can draw such a bow with decent effort and the actual mechanics of nock, aim, and release really aren't at all complicated. Mastering such details as adequately leading a shot, accounting for extreme drop at great range, and adjusting for wind-drift are the things that take years to master.AFAIK, most of modern bowhunters use compound bows (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_bow), which are way way ahead of any older constructions (despite having few unique flaws)
Also, they use modern arrows - which are better than any historical arrows
Side note: by the laws of my land, bow with draw-weight 60 lbs (27 kg) "isn't a weapon"! :smalltongue:


Nah. You're thinking "whip". Any grape juice drinking mouth breather in summer camp can fire a rubber-tipped arrow in [insert fake Indian tribe name] summer camp. Getting a whip to break the sound barrier in the correct spot is well beyond that ability.I don't get what's you attempting to say there. :smallconfused:
Do you mean "rubber-tipped arrow" may be really harmful?
On the other hand, whip may work as improvised garrote, thus - clearly lethal weapon! :nale:

[Barstro]

I don't get what's you attempting to say there. :smallconfused:
Do you mean "rubber-tipped arrow" may be really harmful?
On the other hand, whip may work as improvised garrote, thus - clearly lethal weapon! :nale:
I was attempting to illustrate how easy it is to learn the basics of a bow; so easy that children who cannot be trusted with "sharp" arrows can learn.

[ShurikVch]

I was attempting to illustrate how easy it is to learn the basics of a bow; so easy that children who cannot be trusted with "sharp" arrows can learn.Those "bows" aren't a weapons - they're toys.
Real combat bows are impossible for children - not just by draw-weight along, but by the sheer size too!

[Cwymbran-San]

Those "bows" aren't a weapons - they're toys.
Real combat bows are impossible for children - not just by draw-weight along, but by the sheer size too!

Nevertheless, the basic mechanics stay the same. There is practice involved in learning the techniques and getting used to the muscular strain, but it not very complicated mentally. It takes some time, advice and training - in my book, that's a martial weapon.

As for the bastard sword: good example! It is a martial weapon for the amount of effort it takes to master the unique distribution of weight, balance and (slightly) oversized blade, but to use it effectively with just one hand takes waaaay more effort and instruction.

Maybe we could agree to this:

Simple weapons - easily accessible, very basic techniques to use, can be learned by just watching someone use it

Martial weapon - requires training, may be used by watching someone and train the witnessed movements for a certain amount of time

Exotic weapon - requires extensive training and instruction to use effectively (effectively being the keyword)

[Stealth Marmot]

A common point brought up in discussions comparing crossbows to long bows is that it can take years training someone to use long bows. Now as it can take years shouldn't it be an exotic weapon

No. It shouldn't.

[Mordaedil]

I mean, this is already addressed by it being a martial weapon, isn't it? Crossbows, simple to use (but count as somewhat exotic in terms of crafting) while bows are simple to make, but harder to use.

[Stealth Marmot]

A weapon's category is based on the effort needed for semi-effective use. As mentioned; "expertise" is where BAB, etc. comes in.

I don't precisely agree with this one.

Simple weapons are easier to learn how to use than a martial weapon, but I don't necessarily think that an exotic weapon is necessarily harder to learn how to use than a martial one. Instead I think that the exotic weapons are simply ones that a fighter school or your average teacher wouldn't bother teaching you how to use. I mean a bard doesn't even get martial weapons but he knows how to use a whip, but the fighter doesn't? You think that is because somehow the fighter is less apt in learning how to use it, or because your average martial training facility wouldn't have much use for your rank and file learning how to use a whip in combat? A hand crossbow? A net? Sure certain specialists may need to learn these, but really, the reason they need to sink an exotic weapon feat into it is because you need to find a guy who bothered to learn how to use the thing like a weapon in combat. On the other hand, they might be useful for people of less marital professions to learn.

Some exotic weapons certainly require the extra feat because they are likely tricky to use (the dire flail makes me raise an eyebrow and the orc double axe makes me wonder if the creators were smoking crack), but some probably aren't that hard to figure out so much as most people don't think to learn how to use them.

[jk7275]

Let's don't forget: training to be Fighter may take up to 6 years (and even Barbarian - up to 4 years) - plenty of time to learn usage of bows


Now this is one of the things I wondered about and been to various sites trying to find out. Pretty much every site I been to that talks bout how long training takes will say it takes years to be any good at it especially with the draw weights of medieval bow. Some sites will say it was extremely time consuming but that's it. I also seen comments that during the 100 years war the English had problems getting enough longbowmen

When i see comments like those and see that the only reason given for why a basterd sword is an exoctic weapon is because of the training is why I wondered if a long bow should be an exoctic weapon.

[Stealth Marmot]

Now this is one of the things I wondered about and been to various sites trying to find out. Pretty much every site I been to that talks bout how long training takes will say it takes years to be any good at it especially with the draw weights of medieval bow. Some sites will say it was extremely time consuming but that's it. I also seen comments that during the 100 years war the English had problems getting enough longbowmen

When i see comments like those and see that the only reason given for why a basterd sword is an exoctic weapon is because of the training is why I wondered if a long bow should be an exotic weapon.

The bastard sword is not an exotic weapon if you use two hands. Using an oversized sword one handed requires technique and extra training to use effectively, hence the feat investment.

Anyway the English probably had problems getting enough longbowman because the people tall enough kept dying. English Longbows were RIDICULOUSLY large, we're talking a foot taller than the one using it, so if you were too short you just couldn't use it. And you can bet everyone was saying "Kill the tall guys shooting SPEARS at us!"

[John Longarrow]

Now this is one of the things I wondered about and been to various sites trying to find out. Pretty much every site I been to that talks bout how long training takes will say it takes years to be any good at it especially with the draw weights of medieval bow. Some sites will say it was extremely time consuming but that's it. I also seen comments that during the 100 years war the English had problems getting enough longbowmen

When i see comments like those and see that the only reason given for why a basterd sword is an exoctic weapon is because of the training is why I wondered if a long bow should be an exoctic weapon.

Discussions on English archery needs to include a very important fact; these were not professional soldiers training daily, they are rural agrarian commoners who practice when they can. Instead of training daily for a year to master the art they are practicing once a week (on average) over the course of a decade.

This means if you were able to devote yourself to archery practice for a year you'd be about as good a shot as the commoner who's practiced most of their adult life. They also practiced to fire by volley. This is much harder than just "Aim and release" as you need to aim behind the first rank by a distance based on where in your formation you are standing.

[PacMan2247]

I don't get what's you attempting to say there. :smallconfused:
Do you mean "rubber-tipped arrow" may be really harmful?
On the other hand, whip may work as improvised garrote, thus - clearly lethal weapon! :nale:

The "rubber-tipped arrow" bit is a reference to a fairly common habit in the United States of sending children away to Summer Camp, where they spend time outdoors and learn skills that have no practical application in most lives, such as archery or basket weaving. For safety reasons, the arrows are usually blunted to minimize the risk of mishap.

A whip would not function well as a garrote; they're too thick to crease a windpipe. Ropes used to hang people took a long time to kill them by suffocation- the quick deaths were the ones where the hanged individual's neck broke in the initial drop.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Now this is one of the things I wondered about and been to various sites trying to find out. Pretty much every site I been to that talks bout how long training takes will say it takes years to be any good at it especially with the draw weights of medieval bow. Some sites will say it was extremely time consuming but that's it. I also seen comments that during the 100 years war the English had problems getting enough longbowmen

When i see comments like those and see that the only reason given for why a basterd sword is an exoctic weapon is because of the training is why I wondered if a long bow should be an exoctic weapon.

How are those people defining "good?" Can hit a man-sized target at 30 yards? Can reliably hit the bullseye from 10? Can drill a quarter at 50 yards? People who are expert in a thing tend to put the bar for acceptable performance a bit higher than simple proficiency. Look at this very forum for a keen example. Proficiency is being able to reliably remember the rules pertinent to your character, "good" is knowing what a leap-pouncing uber-charger is or "knowing" that enchantment is the most useless school of magic. Knowing how and being able to do a thing are proficiency, being able to do it well is mastery.


A whip would not function well as a garrote; they're too thick to crease a windpipe. Ropes used to hang people took a long time to kill them by suffocation- the quick deaths were the ones where the hanged individual's neck broke in the initial drop.

Nobody with any sense tries to choke the trachea anyway. Pinch the caratoid and jugular as best you can if you want to bring somebody down in a hurry. Hooray for wire-garrotes. :smallamused:

[PacMan2247]

Nobody with any sense tries to choke the trachea anyway. Pinch the caratoid and jugular as best you can if you want to bring somebody down in a hurry. Hooray for wire-garrotes. :smallamused:

Cutting off blood supply to the brain will put someone down, sure, but collapsing a trachea will keep them down. *shrug* Depends what you're going for.

[Jack_Simth]

The "rubber-tipped arrow" bit is a reference to a fairly common habit in the United States of sending children away to Summer Camp, where they spend time outdoors and learn skills that have no practical application in most lives, such as archery or basket weaving. For safety reasons, the arrows are usually blunted to minimize the risk of mishap.... where did you go to summer camp? The arrows at mine were blunt, but they were most definitely metal at my summer camp ('cept the ones made by the handful of people also doing stoneknapping, of course). They also let us use some low-quality target rifles.

[VoxRationis]

I am inclined to agree with Stealth Marmot—it seems like exotic weaponry is simply that weaponry foreign to the assumed martial culture of the default or viewpoint setting. Regular old swords and whatnot certainly require plenty of skill and practice to use, but are more prevalent. Bows are common as dirt in a preindustrial setting, so in spite of the skill they take to use, it would be silly to call them "exotic."

[Grod_The_Giant]

A common point brought up in discussions comparing crossbows to long bows is that it can take years training someone to use long bows. Now as it can take years shouldn't it be an exotic weapon
By this logic I suspect everything should be an exotic weapon. Martial weapons are those that take years to master; the fact that you get all of them is a goofy facet of game balance. If it bothers you, perhaps try the Weapon Group (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) variant?

[KillianHawkeye]

On the other hand, they might be useful for people of less marital professions to learn.

Yeah, I think most people would agree that whips are more useful outside of a marital context. Depends what you're into, really. :smallwink::smallamused:

[Eisfalken]

How are those people defining "good?" Can hit a man-sized target at 30 yards? Can reliably hit the bullseye from 10? Can drill a quarter at 50 yards? People who are expert in a thing tend to put the bar for acceptable performance a bit higher than simple proficiency. Look at this very forum for a keen example. Proficiency is being able to reliably remember the rules pertinent to your character, "good" is knowing what a leap-pouncing uber-charger is or "knowing" that enchantment is the most useless school of magic. Knowing how and being able to do a thing are proficiency, being able to do it well is mastery.

Let me clarify this even better.

How hard is it to pull out a stick, fit it to a string, and pull the string back? Not hard. Basic longbow use requires a few minutes of practice and enough body strength to actually pull the draw weight effectively.

Oh, you're saying it's hard to aim and hit a target? Yes. That's call Base Attack Bonus and feats that boost attack rolls in certain circumstances. "Mastery" in D&D is literally nothing more whatsoever than a high BAB, and the right choice of feats and class abilities.

I also look sideways at some Exotic Proficiencies (bastard sword, hand crossbow) while others make enough sense that they really do have rather unique techniques to use them effectively (nunchucks, double axe).

But longbows? No. Seriously, no. An simp can "use" them. If you talk about "mastery", then you're talking about a build focused on using them.

I will say I think shortbows and light crossbows are Simple in my opinion, while longbows and heavy crossbows strike me as being definitely Martial. Short bows are basically hunting bows almost anyone in an archaic culture may know to use, and light crossbows traditionally are just smaller ones you can draw by hand. But longbows require you to learn ballistics a little bit, and heavy crossbows usually require more mechanical techniques to draw.

But that's just me. Other mileage may vary.

[Martin Greywolf]

1) Who were the English Longbowmen

Please read a good book. Taking 100 years' war as an example, English longbowmen weren't farmers, they were professional soldiers, and were drafted and paid as such. They were expected to purchase their equipment and more often than not had significant amounts of armor. Calling them farmers is about as inaccurate as you can get, these WERE professional soldiers/mercenaries (medieval and modern definitions of these words are different, long story short, in middle ages, the difference was often rather arbitrary).

Their training was indeed pretty hard, and yes, they ran out of them towards the end, because the war dragged on horribly. Replacing them was more than a matter of training commoners, though.

Also, they weren't English per se, most of the early ones were, in fact, Welsh (practically all of the ones during Wallace rebellion some 100 years earlier, for example), and those training requirements were in part instituted to get England itself to have any longbowmen at all.

2) Terminology

Longbow is a bow that is too long to use comfortably on horseback (or in the thick forests). Its draw weight doesn't matter, and was historically anything from 40 to 180 lbs.

Warbow is a longbow made for use in war, as such, they started at 60 lbs minimum and went up as the armor got better, up to 140-160 lbs (average of Mary Rose warbows, with some outliers, precise numbers are argued about).

Composite bow is anything that uses more than one type of material for the bowshaft, usually it means nomadic bows made of horn and glued together. They can be long or short, but making longbows like this is mostly pointless, as it takes far longer, and you can't get any benefit of making a bow heavier than 200 lbs, as it would be too straining to use in a battle.

Selfbow is a term used to describe bows made of a single piece of wood, if it has to be made explicitly clear. Most longbows will be selfbows, so it's not used all that often.

3) Necessary draw weights

A selfbow with 60 lbs draw weight can send an arrow straight through a deer even if it hits several bones (there are many, many people who hunt large game with them today). It does the same to an unarmored human (yes, we have clothes, but our skin is a lot thinner too), so setting this as a baseline works fine. As the armor becomes better and more commonplace, you need heavier bows to defeat it. There is some debate about how the draw weights increased, but in general, viking age/early medieval/migration period had bows of 60-90 lbs used in war, by the start of renaissance, you had 160 lbs draw weight warbows.

4) Which one does DnD longbow represent?

Tough to say. These all have the same damage, since they use the same projectile that will more often than not go pretty deep once it penetrates your armor, so the damage is about the same.

5) What proficiency?

Once you know how to use a shortbow, you know how to use pretty much any bow up to about 120 lbs, depending on your strength. Once we get to higher draw weights, you need to draw them a bit differently, but how you actually shoot them changes a little. With 5 minutes of instruction, a completely untrained (adult) person can do it. Kids are usually harder, simply because they lack the manual dexterity to properly nock an arrow.

Now, something that an average Joe can do after 5 minutes shouldn't cost a feat. Yeah, there's more to being a good bowman, but we're not talking about being good here, we're talking about being able to use the weapon somewhat well. If anything, strength or constitution should determine if someone can use a heavy warbow.

6) Weapon learning curve

The hardest weapon by far to master is a quarterstaff. You have 3 ways to grip it (two of those have 3 variations), 8 strikes and 5 stabs from each one, and you need to double all of that depending on which side is your leading one. At the same time, it's the simplest weapon to learn - in 5 minutes you'll be good enough to give a proficient sowrdsman run for his money (not necessarily defeat him, though).

Swords have the mastery/proficiency points on this curve a lot closer together, especially swords used without a shield.

tl;dr

Bows should be exotic only if there is something else people around use for hunting (not crossbows, they were much too expensive for a lot of people) - sling would be a good candidate. Even then, they should have exotic weapon proficiency: bows as a feat for all of them.

If you want to have someone be really good with a warbow, well, you have other feats for that.

If you want to make warbow more special than a longbow, give it a + to attack, not higher damage, and limit it to certain strength amount.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Let me clarify this even better.

How hard is it to pull out a stick, fit it to a string, and pull the string back? Not hard. Basic longbow use requires a few minutes of practice and enough body strength to actually pull the draw weight effectively.

Oh, you're saying it's hard to aim and hit a target? Yes. That's call Base Attack Bonus and feats that boost attack rolls in certain circumstances. "Mastery" in D&D is literally nothing more whatsoever than a high BAB, and the right choice of feats and class abilities.

I also look sideways at some Exotic Proficiencies (bastard sword, hand crossbow) while others make enough sense that they really do have rather unique techniques to use them effectively (nunchucks, double axe).

But longbows? No. Seriously, no. An simp can "use" them. If you talk about "mastery", then you're talking about a build focused on using them.

I will say I think shortbows and light crossbows are Simple in my opinion, while longbows and heavy crossbows strike me as being definitely Martial. Short bows are basically hunting bows almost anyone in an archaic culture may know to use, and light crossbows traditionally are just smaller ones you can draw by hand. But longbows require you to learn ballistics a little bit, and heavy crossbows usually require more mechanical techniques to draw.

But that's just me. Other mileage may vary.

This. Proficiency is not a measure of competence, attack bonus is a measure of competence. It is entirely possible for a character to be proficient in a weapon and yet be at minuses to hit with it, or be nonproficient and yet be reasonably effective (e.g. A first level grey elf wizard with 6 str is at -2 to hit with a quarterstaff he is proficient in, while a first level half-orc fighter with 18 str will be at +1 to hit with a dwarven waraxe he is not proficient in).

[PacMan2247]

... where did you go to summer camp? The arrows at mine were blunt, but they were most definitely metal at my summer camp ('cept the ones made by the handful of people also doing stoneknapping, of course). They also let us use some low-quality target rifles.

The ones for archery practice were metal. The ones for war games were rubber-tipped plastic- Nerf carried too much risk of bits of foam littering the woods.

[Jack_Simth]

The ones for archery practice were metal. The ones for war games were rubber-tipped plastic- Nerf carried too much risk of bits of foam littering the woods.Ah, that's why; we didn't do war games with anything more dangerous that water balloons. I did enjoy the shooting range, though.

[GreyBlack]

As has been noted, mastery != proficiency. Anyone can learn to use a spear. It takes something special to do this:

https://youtu.be/F9sRJmHQX4E