new to d20games like pathfinder need advice

[Ofmossandmoose]

So I used to pay Ad&d before it got sold and went d20. Had all the skills and options and other like books to delve deep into class and character customization.

So i might be joining a pathfinder campaign and I got some questions about a build.

I'm looking to reprise a character, but i wanna make sure it still works.

I had a PC thri-kreen. It was a cataloguer of exotic plants and animals, and wandered with a party, much like a botanist would do as part of a Lewis & Clark expedition.

Class wise if I remember correctly, it was a ranger/monk/psonicist though I was considering replacing the psonicist or monk with a mage specialist in dimensional magic...

The whole idea is anything that would boost the thri-kreen and rangers multi attack, and anything that would boost unarmored Ac. With the psonicist I used blink and other dimensional, or physical alteration psonicist to assist.

Now with hybrid classes and archetypes etc. Its complicated now... Plus I'm still trying to figure out all the new rules and guidelines... So some help would be appreciated.

Think mantis dr who, crossed with Aristotle or Linneaus if he could fight like a shaolin monk crossed with nightcrawler.

[exelsisxax]

You'll run into 2 main mechanical issues.

1. Paizo has no psionics materials. Dreamscarred Press has published third-party psionics, and they're great, but your DM might not permit 3.pp
2. Multiclassing is usually terrible in pathfinder. Unlike D&D, virtually every class gets class features every single level, and they scale with class level. So multiclassing gets you a large number of very weak and ineffective features that often don't stack or work together.

The end result is that dipping away from a caster, including DSP psionic classes, is almost invariably terrible.

However, there are some classes that sort-of emulate that combination.
Marksman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/marksman) is basically a psionic ranger. They're pretty cool.
Zen archer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/zen-archer) is a monk archetype that can flurry (only) with bows.

Those are the best ways I can think of to approach that particular type of build that don't suck. There's certainly quite a few other options I don't know about though, especially 3.pp stuff but it's a starting point. The main problem is the psionics, where your options are essentially marksman, a bow-using archetype of psywar or soulknife, having a terrible build, or not using psionics.

[Ofmossandmoose]

I'm thinking much more of a melee type of character with some teleportational stuff, how about hybrid classes? Like does monk-ranger hybrid class focusing on multi weapon attacks... Maybe homebrew an archetype that drops some of animal focus for spells with a dimensional feel? Any ideas?

Anyone know how the psionics work for the third party offering?

[Ofmossandmoose]

I'm thinking something like a "Dimensional Wanderer"

Ranger-monk hybrid class or Ranger-Mage hybrid

Keep two weapon fighting

Loose animal companion
Loose the enemy and favored terrain bonus

But maybe a small bonus to unfamiliar terrain.

Either gain a teleport like the conjurer specialist with maybe some roll to see if it works...

[exelsisxax]

You need to be more specific or you cannot be assisted.

If you want homebrew, this is not the place for it. Ask your DM to start with, who will probably say "no homebrew", or work with him or her if homebrew is fine. But if you do that, nobody here will have anything for you.

If you aren't using homebrew, explicitly state what you want help with. Are you faffing around with a theoretical character concept or do you want help with a concrete PC that you are going to play in a real campaign? If this is a real PC you want to make, say the rules for the campaign. People will want sources, ability generation methods or point buy, if it's gestalt, etc. Otherwise you're lost in a forest and not telling us how you got there, what it looks like, or what continent the forest is on.

[Deadline]

If you are playing d&d 3.5, this sounds like a Thri-kreen Horizon Walker Build (Ranger 5/Horizon Walker 10/Ranger 5). You can pick up 1/round d-door teleports with one of the Horizon Walker planar options (starting at Horizon Walker 6).

If this is pathfinder, see if your DM allows Path of War. There's bound to be something similar to the Shadow Hand discipline from Tome of Battle, which contains short-range teleport maneuvers.

Also, what level would this campaign start at?

[Stealth Marmot]

First thing I would do is make sure the DM is okay with you playing a Thri-keen. Then ask if they are using psionics. If they nix either of those, it would save you a lot of time trying to work with the build.

Also, what level are you starting at?

I would dip a level or two into Ranger to get the class skill bonuses in Survival and knowledge (Nature) but otherwise take all your levels in monk to get that unarmed damage up.

[NomGarret]

Yeah, your first trick is determining how the DM feels about psionics. There are a few ways to build from there. Psychic Warrior would be where I'd start. The next step is finding a Pathfinder version of the Thri Kreen. AFAIK, your best bet is using the 3.5 version (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook, appropriately enough).

A big difference between 2e and 3e/PF is how multiclassing works. Rather than advancing all of those classes simultaneously, you level one class at a time. So where your ranger 2/monk 2/psionicist 2 had equivalent xp to about a 3rd level single class character, to accomplish that now you'd have equivalent xp to a 6th level character. The other way still exists, but it's called "gestalt," and is an optional rule you'll definitely need to ask the DM about.

Long story short, it can be done, but is going to require a lot of non-standard options for the DM to allow. If you hear the words "core only," you might just want to move on to Concept B.

[Ofmossandmoose]

So it's a potential game with a new gm so I'm not sure, was trying to have a character ready to go if his sessions start back up.

Not sure what level, but until I know otherwise I'm assuming I'm starting at level 1. If I'm a thri-kreen, i wouldn't mind being a bit behind other player's levels.

The gm is fairly open to anything, if I'm not trying to break the game it's OK. I already mentioned that I wanted a ranger/monk/psionicst thri-kreen who wanders different planes as a xenobotanist collecting specimens and cataloging new plants.

He was enthused. But we didn't speak about details. And I didn't know how different pathfinder handles multi classing.

[exelsisxax]

So it's a potential game with a new gm so I'm not sure, was trying to have a character ready to go if his sessions start back up.

Not sure what level, but until I know otherwise I'm assuming I'm starting at level 1. If I'm a thri-kreen, i wouldn't mind being a bit behind other player's levels.

The gm is fairly open to anything, if I'm not trying to break the game it's OK. I already mentioned that I wanted a ranger/monk/psionicst thri-kreen who wanders different planes as a xenobotanist collecting specimens and cataloging new plants.

He was enthused. But we didn't speak about details. And I didn't know how different pathfinder handles multi classing.

Again, stop describing what you want in terms of classes. You have no idea how to make the character you envision. Describe what you want the character to do, or contribute to a party. You can't play a monk/ranger/psion that doesn't completely suck, so revise your expectations accordingly. List the mechanical things that are important for making the character concept work, and someone will probably be able to at least point you in the right direction.

For the race, go here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder.html), replicate thri-keen, ask your DM if it's OK.

[Ofmossandmoose]

I really like horizon Walker... I'm starting to go through core material, but can someone give me a quick explanation of why multiclassing seems to suck? Besides the requirements what's the deal with a prestige class vs regular class?

[Flickerdart]

I really like horizon Walker... I'm starting to go through core material, but can someone give me a quick explanation of why multiclassing seems to suck?
Imagine you're in your second year of a four-year degree, studying Computer Science. You are taking second-year Computer Science courses. Then in your third year, you decide to change your major to Biology. Suddenly you are taking first-year courses, and your former classmates are taking third-year courses.

It's the same with multiclassing. You give up features the designers thought were appropriate for a higher-level character, and start gaining features appropriate for a lower level character.


Besides the requirements what's the deal with a prestige class vs regular class?
Prestige classes are assumed to be entered after several levels in a base class. If the logical entry to a PrC is 5th level, it will have abilities appropriate for a 5th level character, not a 1st level one. Think of it like getting a graduate degree - your "first-year" courses are far more advanced than the first-year courses of an undergraduate degree.

[Ofmossandmoose]

I've always played d&d to role play not to min max, so when I build a character I think of it as a character not as a set of mechanics. How that doesn't mean I don't have an interest in having a character who can perform, but that's not where I start.

I think of a character it's personality and it's background, what classes and mechanics work with its background and personality.

So I'm thinking of a character like odo from ds9. An outsider who has little knowledge of his culture or race. A creature who is a scholar at heart but also someone pushed to fight because of its natural advantages.

And so the creature escaped being pigeonholed by wandering.

[exelsisxax]

I've always played d&d to role play not to min max, so when I build a character I think of it as a character not as a set of mechanics. How that doesn't mean I don't have an interest in having a character who can perform, but that's not where I start.

I think of a character it's personality and it's background, what classes and mechanics work with its background and personality.

So I'm thinking of a character like odo from ds9. An outsider who has little knowledge of his culture or race. A creature who is a scholar at heart but also someone pushed to fight because of its natural advantages.

And so the creature escaped being pigeonholed by wandering.

This is fluff and nothing else. You could play literally any class with any combination of feats and items with this.

Why does the party have this guy in it? What does he contribute? What can he do, and what can't he do? If you can't answer these questions, you can't build a PC. It's not a fluff vs. mechanics thing, it's an NPC vs. PC thing. You are describing a named background NPC so far. There's no build there.

[Ofmossandmoose]

I'm not seeing a level requirement for horizon Walker

[Ofmossandmoose]

I don't know what I want the character to do exactly. A guide, a back up melee to the main fighter, maybe focus on critical hit, or entangling a foe with a barrage of attacks which allow a heavier hitter to get the big blow in... I'm still up in the air. I like the mechanics to fit the fluff... So I'm still exploring the possibilities.

[Deadline]

This is fluff and nothing else. You could play literally any class with any combination of feats and items with this.

Why does the party have this guy in it? What does he contribute? What can he do, and what can't he do? If you can't answer these questions, you can't build a PC. It's not a fluff vs. mechanics thing, it's an NPC vs. PC thing. You are describing a named background NPC so far. There's no build there.

This. To give you a better idea of the kind of stuff we are looking for, here are a couple things you could say (which we could then follow up on):


I want to play a thri-kreen (you've already said this).
I want my character to be a viable unarmed melee combatant.

Follow up question: What do you consider viable? "As dangerous as a fighter with a shortsword?"

I want to be able to use limited teleportation abilities.

Follow up question: How limited? Close range type abilities that you use in combat?



That's the kind of thing folks are looking for. Also, Roleplay & mechanics are pretty much entirely separate. You've got a roleplay concept in mind, which is good. Now we need to figure out how to assemble the mechanics to support that concept.

[Deadline]

I'm not seeing a level requirement for horizon Walker

Horizon Walker has the following requirements:

Knowledge(Geography) - 8 ranks
the Endurance feat.

A character can have a number of ranks (in a class skill) equal to their level + 3. So, you'd need to be, say, a 5th level Ranger (who gets Knowledge(Geography) as a class skill) in order to have 8 ranks in Knowledge(Geography). As long as you also had the Endurance feat, you'd be able to take the first level of Horizon Walker when you gained your 6th level, so you'd be a Ranger 5/Horizon Walker 1.

[exelsisxax]

I don't know what I want the character to do exactly. A guide, a back up melee to the main fighter, maybe focus on critical hit, or entangling a foe with a barrage of attacks which allow a heavier hitter to get the big blow in... I'm still up in the air. I like the mechanics to fit the fluff... So I'm still exploring the possibilities.

Then i'm going to cut this off right here. While you explore those possibilities, it is not possible for anyone to provide aid to you. When you know what you want to do, this forum can help, but not before then. As deadline said, you need more concrete ideas that relate to your build. If it isn't build-related, it isn't relevant here - roleplay whatever you want. Make a list of tangible things you want your character to be able to do, contribute, or participate in mechanically. Backstory is not relevant except where backstory generates that list. But right now, you've got nothing but a backstory in a vacuum.

[Deadline]

A couple of points for reference, as you've stated you don't have a ton of experience with d20 (d&d 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder), but are an old 2nd ed player:


The fighter, at least to me, is less powerful than it was in 2nd ed. Can you play a fighter who stands on the front lines and takes the hits? Sure (you can make a decent punching bag). Are you going to be as dangerous as the rest of your party? No, probably not.
The monk looks really good, but isn't. It's even less dangerous than the fighter, and nowhere near as good as it was in earlier editions of D&D.
Rogues work a bit different now. Sneak attack is their main damage source, and there are a handful of very specific ways to get it reliably. Flanking being the main one (it's relatively new with 3.0, so be sure to familiarize yourself with it).
Spellcasters are still ridiculously good. And the higher level you get to, the bigger that gap gets. High level fighters are still serving the wizard tea while he single handedly ends encounters.
What you knew as multiclassing and dual classing in 2nd ed are gone now. It used to be that a Dwarf Fighter/Cleric 2 was a 2nd level character (and had all the abilities of a 2nd level fighter and 2nd level cleric). That same character now would be a 4th level character (and thus be pretty much strictly worse than, say, a 4th level cleric). There is a higher powered mechanic called gestalt which kind of replicates the old 2nd ed multi-classing, but it's really something the GM has to be ok with and allow for everyone.
The system assumes rather heavily that you'll have a certain amount of magical gear at any given level. A non-spellcaster absolutely needs this gear to remain capable of handling threats appropriate to their level. A spellcaster mostly does not.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not seeing a level requirement for horizon Walker
Options in d20 games almost never have explicit level requirements. There are many implicit level requirements, though. For example, a prestige class might require access to 3rd level spells (difficult to achieve until level 5), 8 ranks in a skill (almost impossible to achieve until level 5), or a base attack bonus (BAB) of +5 (also almost impossible to achieve before level 5).

The reason it's like this is to predispose characters of a certain skillset to take the class, but not ban others from doing so. A fighter could become a divine crusader after level 7 (requires +7 BAB), but a rogue cannot because he only has +5 BAB at that level. However, he gets the necessary BAB at level 10, and can take his 11th level in divine crusader if he wanted to.


I don't know what I want the character to do exactly. A guide, a back up melee to the main fighter, maybe focus on critical hit, or entangling a foe with a barrage of attacks which allow a heavier hitter to get the big blow in... I'm still up in the air. I like the mechanics to fit the fluff... So I'm still exploring the possibilities.

When thinking about what your character should be able to do, there is only one important consideration - will you be relevant all the time? If you are only good at a specific thing (like being a wilderness guide), you are not doing anything when that skill is not required to solve the problem at hand. Someone with a narrow skill set like that is a low-level NPC hireling, not a hero.

A back-up fighter? Useless if there's no primary fighter, or the primary fighter doesn't want to fight next to you (a lancer, for example). A focus on critical hits? You can't touch undead, or constructs, or lots of other things without a lot of work.

There is a concept called the Same Game Test (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:The_Same_Game_Test) that's used to evaluate how useful a particular character might be. It lists a variety of challenge types, from locked doors and traps to different kinds of enemies. You should read through that list and ask yourself, "how is my character contributing to this challenge?" If your character cannot meaningfully contribute, then you the player will be sitting at the table doing nothing while other players get to play the game. If this is a situation you want to avoid, create a character capable of being useful in all kinds of situations.

[ellindsey]

Thri-kreen were never officially made part of Pathfinder, so your GM will have to use one of the several different third party conversions for them. Make sure that your GM is Ok with this and find out which conversion you want to use before you decide on this concept.

[Ualaa]

If you're playing Pathfinder, you cannot have more ranks in a skill then your actual character level.

Some of your skills are considered Class Skills.
Others are not.
All of your class skills gain a +3 bonus, once you put a rank into them.

If your game is Pathfinder, and a prestige class requires 5 ranks... you cannot enter the prestige class until you already have those 5 ranks.
Same deal as if you need 8 ranks.

Melee builds can multi-class more or less freely.
This functions as dual-classing from 2nd edition.
Except every race does the dual-class procedure, not just humans.
And you gain all of the features immediately, you don't need to exceed your previous classes in terms of level, to gain those abilities.

If your focus is melee, you could go Paladin 2 (if Lawful Good) for CHA modifier to saving throws.
Monk 2 would get Evasion (as would Rogue 2); Monk adds WIS modifier to Armor Class.
With at least a CHA of 11 (you need 10 + 1 per spell level, to cast a spell), a 2-3 level dip in Sorcerer would get you enough spells per day, especially with the trait Magical Knack (which is like a half-feat), for Mage Armor (armor bonus, as a spell to Armor Class) and Shield (shield bonus, as a spell to Armor Class), pretty much all day, and every fight.

The biggest difference in terms of statistics, is that bigger is better.
And we're starting from a base of 10, in most things.

Previously, you would have a number for THAC0 of 10, initially.
And that would improve over time.
So as a Fighter 3, your THAC0 would improve by -3.
Meaning you needed a 7 to hit armor class of 0... we can extrapolate for various values, ranging from -10 (best AC) to +10 (worst AC).

In 3.x (3.0/3.5/Pathfinder), the values increase as you're better at something.
So an AC of 11 is superior to an AC of 10.
And bonuses are always positive values, while penalties are negative.
So if you flank... as in the target is between two guys.... Friend -- Bad Guy -- You...
You both gain a +2 bonus to your attack roll.
You roll a d20 and add all bonuses, to get your attack roll... for example d20 +11.
And your defenses are generally 10 plus bonuses.
So the opponent might have AC 16 (6 better than AC 10).
And if your bonus was +11, you would hit on a 5+ roll on the d20 (with a natural 1 being an auto miss, and a natural 20 being an auto hit).

[KillingAScarab]

I really like horizon Walker... I'm starting to go through core material, but can someone give me a quick explanation of why multiclassing seems to suck? Besides the requirements what's the deal with a prestige class vs regular class?I would direct you to the first three paragraphs of this article (http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/book043.html) from Cayzle's Wemic Site. It's a bit old (it predates Pathfinder), but it still offers a succinct description of why multiclassing is not the same.

Under the first and second edition rules, a multiclass character with one or two caster classes was a viable option. With the old exponential experience point system, a multiclassed PC only lagged a couple levels behind a single classed PC. A 10/10 wizard/cleric might be travelling in a group of 12th level PCs.

The third edition changed all that. Now levels are additive. In a 12th level group, the wizard/cleric is 6th/6th. The problem is that a wizard/cleric 6/6 is not nearly as potent as a wizard 12, a fighter 12, a cleric 12, or even a fighter/barbarian 6/6.

One friend of mine was very disappointed in his druid/wizard after converting to 3E, and he was right to be.

You asked about prestige classes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes). Taking a prestige class is done through much the same rules as multiclassing, but prestige classes are supposed to be earned, and generally may not be entered before your character would take their 6th level (at the earliest). Some prestige classes are designed to offer some of those old combinations of abilities found when playing a character like an AD&D multiclass fighter/mage (eldritch knight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/eldritch-knight) does this). Prestige classes can also offer much more focused class features; for example, in Pathfinder a sorcerer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer) can have a draconic bloodline and eventually get the ability to use claws, wings and a breath weapon like a dragon, but they're primarily spellcasters. A sorcerer who takes levels in the dragon disciple prestige class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/draconic-bloodline) doesn't advance their spellcasting ability as much, but still gains those features from their bloodline at about the same rate. They also also get more dragon-ish things like additional hit points, a bite attack, blindsense and turning into a dragon so many times per day.

With prestige classes, figuring out how to qualify for entry into them in a way which best serves a character concept can be a little difficult. Horizon walker has fairly straightforward requirements: 6 ranks of knowledge (geography) means you won't be able to enter it until you have taken at least six levels in other classes. You also need endurance; you can get that feat for free with three levels of ranger. If you want to spend some of the other three pre-Horizon Walker levels on monk, you can so long as you continue to buy ranks in knowledge (geography).

We can see that horizon walker with terrain dominance: astral plane would give you the ability to use dimension door as a spell-like ability, but that will not come online until the third level you take in that prestige class. In 3rd edition/3.5/Pathfinder it can take some time to get all of the mechanics you want to use to bring a character concept to life. By using prestige classes which focus on the abilities you want, however, you can get there a little faster. In this case, you're far ahead of a single-classed ranger who waits for the ability to cast tree stride (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/tree-stride) as a 4th level ranger spell. A wizard could cast dimension door (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimension-door) earlier in their career than this, but wouldn't be a front-line combatant.

[Firest Kathon]

Pathfinder also adds a new "type" of classes into the mix: Hybrid classes. The are "normal" classes, but they are designed to provide features/flavor from two base classes. For example, the Magus class adds features from Fighter and Wizard, but without the hassle of multiclassing. While multiclassing (i.e. mixing two base classes) is allowed and supported, Pathfinder class design usually rewards taking only a single class, as many features are keyed off class levels, i.e. they will be more powerful if you take more levels in the class.

In the spoiler below, I give you a short table to compare the different options. It is very different from the concepts of dual-/multiclassing in 2e, so I hope this helps you to understand the new concepts. The four options I am detailing are:

Taking only a single base class. This is the most basic case, you only get the features of this one class.
Multiclassing. Instead of taking the next level of your current class, you take the first level of a different class.
Taking a single hybrid class. Works the same as the single base class, but is designed to mix features of two base classes.
Gestalt: A special way to mix two classes. This is an optional, non-standard rule and is most likely not allowed in the game you will play. I am adding this here for completeness. Each level, you are taking a level each in two classes, taking the better choice if features overlab (e.g. BAB, saves).


I am also giving you the result at 5th level for some class features for comparison. You can see that the single classes come out strongest, with hybrid classes not far behind, and the multiclassing at the end. The disparity gets wider at higher levels, with hybrid classes holding up but multiclassing falling far behind.




XP (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement)
Single Base Class (Fighter)
Single Base Class (Cleric)
Multiclass Fighter/Cleric
Hybrid Class (Warpriest)
Gestalt Fighter//Cleric


0
Fighter 1
Cleric 1
Fighter 1
Warpriest 1
Fighter 1 // Cleric 1


2,000
Fighter 2
Cleric 2
Fighter 1 / Cleric 1
Warpriest 2
Fighter 2 // Cleric 2


5,000
Fighter 3
Cleric 3
Fighter 1 / Cleric 2
Warpriest 3
Fighter 3 // Cleric 3


9,000
Fighter 4
Cleric 4
Fighter 2 / Cleric 2
Warpriest 4
Fighter 4 // Cleric 4


15,000
Fighter 5
Cleric 5
Fighter 3 / Cleric 2
Warpriest 5
Fighter 5 // Cleric 5


Result
BAB +5
3rd Level Spells, Channel 3d6
BAB +4, 1st level spells, Channel 1d6
BAB +4, 2nd level spells, Channel 2d6
BAB +5, 3rd level spells, Channel 3d6


...
...
...
...
...


105,000
Fighter 10
Cleric 10
Fighter 5 / Cleric 5
Warpriest 10
Fighter 10 // Cleric 10


Result
BAB +10
5thLevel Spells, Channel 5d6
BAB +5, 3rd level spells, Channel 3d6
BAB +7, 4th level spells, Channel 3d6
BAB +10, 5th level spells, Channel 5d6




Pathfinder pretty much removed Prestige Classes: A few have been published, but there are no new ones coming up. However, they introduced archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/class-archetypes): an archetype for a class swaps out a set of class features and replaces them with new class features. It provides more variance and (partial) customization in the class features. For example, a Ranger with the Witchguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/witchguard) archetype does not get an animal companion, but instead gets the ability to better protect another character.

I hope this helps you in understanding the Pathfinder class advancement concepts.


I've always played d&d to role play not to min max, so when I build a character I think of it as a character not as a set of mechanics. How that doesn't mean I don't have an interest in having a character who can perform, but that's not where I start.

I think of a character it's personality and it's background, what classes and mechanics work with its background and personality.


I don't know what I want the character to do exactly. A guide, a back up melee to the main fighter, maybe focus on critical hit, or entangling a foe with a barrage of attacks which allow a heavier hitter to get the big blow in... I'm still up in the air. I like the mechanics to fit the fluff... So I'm still exploring the possibilities.

If you want to get some help with coming up with an actual build, I would suggest this process based on what you wrote:

Think about what kind of character you want to play. Personality, background, etc.
Think about what the character will/should be able to do in the game, not in game mechanics but in description. Example: If he is a guide type, he should be able to advise and assist other characters. You need to do this, because only you know what e.g. a "guide" is for you (I may have a totally different idea about this concept). We can help you here a little bit by suggesting a character role which will supplement existing party members, to make sure that your character will work well with the rest of the party.
Build a character which is able to do what you want it to do. This is what we can help you with in the forum, if you give us the results of step 2.

[TheIronGolem]

PPathfinder pretty much removed Prestige Classes: A few have been published, but there are no new ones coming up. However, they introduced archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/class-archetypes): an archetype for a class swaps out a set of class features and replaces them with new class features. It provides more variance and (partial) customization in the class features. For example, a Ranger with the Witchguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/witchguard) archetype does not get an animal companion, but instead gets the ability to better protect another character.

Since you're coming from an AD&D background, OP, another way to put it is: Archetypes are Kits.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Concrete suggestion: Unchained Monk. It's an updated version of the original class, one that's considerably tougher, more powerful, more STYLISH, and one with a lot of pseduo-magical "ki powers." There's a teleport, for instance. Ranged blasts of various sorts. Jumping, balancing, self-healing...

[Ofmossandmoose]

So I think I'm starting to get more of an idea of how things work mechanically that are different then 2ndED, and so a couple ideas are taking shape.

So builds which use the thri-kreen multi arm for some sort of multiple attacks per round as mob control.

A scout type character, that can enter a fray and exit a fray quickly. Using the naturally high rate of movement.

In terms of flavor, having a Dimensional or planer abilities. However is that spells, psionics (gm ok'd), or other mechanic is up for grabs.

I'm also reading up on "dipping" and how that works to max specific skills and how to best mitigate bad bab problems from multiclassing.

Classes that seem useful to me:

Monk

extra unarmed attacks to combo with multi weapon attacks.

And because monks have abilities to improve unarmored AC

Dervish, I think it's a Bard type

Using movement as a boost to attacks sounds promising as a scout who can deal with inflicting some Suprise damage and still get out and warn party of danger. Also can attack and move out of range, which seems helpful if you have no armor, also to close range with a spellcaster to engage caster in melee to tie the spellcaster up. Or who can be the prey to draw enemy into a trap and then get out quickly.

Ranger is an obvious choice.

Multi weapon attack
Flavor
Some spell casting, could find an archetype or prestige class that fits this class to the purpose better.
Also slightly considering doing an archer critical hit based build... Is there a way to do this with the thri-kreen throwing star instead of a bow and arrow, that would use multiple atracks to up chance of critical hit? Possibly using an assassin, that psionic archer hybrid class that I can't remember the name of, maybe Zen archer etc.

Barbarian for rage

Psionicst because well it's interesting and maybe an archetype could make it work somehow. I remember in 2nEd there being neat dimensional abilities is that still the case?

Or ninja, which might be quickly ex ninja, as lawful alignment isn't my cup of tea...

I heard ninja and monks kinda suck all and all...

Does dipping make sense to build this character more to my liking or will seriously undermine bab to the point it's not feasible?

[exelsisxax]

Dipping will not get you any of these nebulous things in your fluff. Do not consider multiclassing at all. You don't even have one class yet. Describe in concrete terms the capabilities you want to have and the role you fill in the party.

[Deadline]

Ok, you've given some more info, so let's drill down on these things to clarify and prioritize.


So builds which use the thri-kreen multi arm for some sort of multiple attacks per round as mob control.

How important is crowd control to you? It's worth noting that multiple attacks per round doesn't do it, you need a reach weapon and some way of locking enemies in melee. This is directly counter to one of your following ideas (moving in and out of combat). These are mutually exclusive. If crowd control is important and you don't want to be in melee, you'll need spells of some sort to do the crowd control.


A scout type character, that can enter a fray and exit a fray quickly. Using the naturally high rate of movement.

So you don't want to stand toe-to-toe in melee combat, correct?


In terms of flavor, having a Dimensional or planer abilities. However is that spells, psionics (gm ok'd), or other mechanic is up for grabs.

So, what are you talking about here. Tactical teleportation (i.e. used in combat), or are you envisioning these abilities as a travel method (actual long range teleportation and planar travel) rather than a tactical use?


I'm also reading up on "dipping" and how that works to max specific skills and how to best mitigate bad bab problems from multiclassing.

"Dipping" is best avoided unless you use it to grab maybe one ability that makes the build tick. As soon as you start dipping to try and get multiple abilities from multiple classes, you'll wind up with a mess. Especially in Pathfinder, which really discourages it.


Monk

extra unarmed attacks to combo with multi weapon attacks.

And because monks have abilities to improve unarmored AC

Monk AC is usually worse than any other dedicated melee fighter, unless you dedicate some serious resources to it. I can't recall the general formula that was worked out, but if you want your AC to be relevant, you need to be shooting for an AC equal to roughly level + 14 I think (can someone who knows clarify?). At higher levels, AC is only relevant to avoid iterative attacks and discourage Power Attacks against you. You likely won't be missed on the first attack a foe makes on you (that's what things like miss chance are for).


Dervish, I think it's a Bard type

Using movement as a boost to attacks sounds promising as a scout who can deal with inflicting some Suprise damage and still get out and warn party of danger. Also can attack and move out of range, which seems helpful if you have no armor, also to close range with a spellcaster to engage caster in melee to tie the spellcaster up. Or who can be the prey to draw enemy into a trap and then get out quickly.

You likely don't have enough movement to attack and move out of range. Melee threats will almost certainly be able to charge you, ranged threats can hit you from a good distance. Also, you won't be tying a spellcaster up in melee. They can just 5ft. step back away from you and murder you. The only way to tie the spellcaster up is to kill him, or potentially grapple him.


Ranger is an obvious choice.

Multi weapon attack
Flavor
Some spell casting, could find an archetype or prestige class that fits this class to the purpose better.
Also slightly considering doing an archer critical hit based build... Is there a way to do this with the thri-kreen throwing star instead of a bow and arrow, that would use multiple atracks to up chance of critical hit? Possibly using an assassin, that psionic archer hybrid class that I can't remember the name of, maybe Zen archer etc.

You are bouncing all over the place here. Did you want a melee threat or a ranged threat? Also, ranger casting isn't all that spectacular (it's mostly buffs and healing).


Barbarian for rage

Weren't you shooting for an intelligent, graceful combatant? Not a frothing madman?


Psionicst because well it's interesting and maybe an archetype could make it work somehow. I remember in 2nEd there being neat dimensional abilities is that still the case?

As has been mentioned, you'd need 3rd party material to make a psionics based character in Pathfinder, so that would require DM approval.


I heard ninja and monks kinda suck all and all...

The Pathfinder Unchained Monk is decent.


Does dipping make sense to build this character more to my liking or will seriously undermine bab to the point it's not feasible?

Dipping is a very rapid way to become irrelevant in most situations. Again, it's best reserved for picking up that one ability you must have but can't get any other way.

[Flickerdart]

A multi-attacker that doesn't want to stand and fight could be used for crowd control, by putting rider effects on their attacks. Imagine someone running across the battlefield, and everyone they punch is suddenly paralyzed, or entangled, or whatever. It would be difficult to achieve, but there are lots of ways to try (poison? Stunning Fist? channeled spells?) so it might be worth a shot.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A multi-attacker that doesn't want to stand and fight could be used for crowd control, by putting rider effects on their attacks. Imagine someone running across the battlefield, and everyone they punch is suddenly paralyzed, or entangled, or whatever. It would be difficult to achieve, but there are lots of ways to try (poison? Stunning Fist? channeled spells?) so it might be worth a shot.
Cornugon Smash? Not available until 6th level unfortunately, but fun when you get it. There are a few Investigator talents that do similar things; I had a character who would Intimidate+Sicken you with every hit, which was fun.

[Ofmossandmoose]

"Imagine someone running across the battlefield, and everyone they punch is suddenly paralyzed, or entangled" <--- this!!

I'm saying one version of this character I'm envisioning would be able to stand toe to toe with multiple low power enemies and dance circles around them, this is where multiple strikes and tactical teleport abilities come in, different debilitating strikes ala the Monk or maybe magic item, spell, psionics etc.

Let's forget about ranged attacker for the moment.

Now I mentioned barbarian as a dip for rage and to not drop bab. The idea of a character who is calm and collected, utterly loosing it in battle occasionally seems interesting to rp. Also doing an ex barbarian turned monk seems very interesting. Can it work mechanically I'm not sure enough of everything yet.

Also building around a multi striker approach like unchained monk using a series of unarmed and armed strikes with dimensional savant which allows you to self flank, as a goal is very interesting. Could rage boost this enough for a level or two dip or is dipping that prohibitive?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Monks must be Lawful and Barbarians cannot be-- a Lawful Barbarian can't rage, and a non-Lawful Monk doesn't lose any powers but can't advance either. It's an absolutely :smallcool: godlawful situation.

[exelsisxax]

"Imagine someone running across the battlefield, and everyone they punch is suddenly paralyzed, or entangled" <--- this!!

I'm saying one version of this character I'm envisioning would be able to stand toe to toe with multiple low power enemies and dance circles around them, this is where multiple strikes and tactical teleport abilities come in, different debilitating strikes ala the Monk or maybe magic item, spell, psionics etc.

Let's forget about ranged attacker for the moment.

Now I mentioned barbarian as a dip for rage and to not drop bab. The idea of a character who is calm and collected, utterly loosing it in battle occasionally seems interesting to rp. Also doing an ex barbarian turned monk seems very interesting. Can it work mechanically I'm not sure enough of everything yet.

Also building around a multi striker approach like unchained monk using a series of unarmed and armed strikes with dimensional savant which allows you to self flank, as a goal is very interesting. Could rage boost this enough for a level or two dip or is dipping that prohibitive?

No, you can't work a monk/barb without houserules. You literally cannot have both classes on one character.

Please, for your own good, stop thinking about multiclassing. It is a now-discarded artefact of a system without many options, serving as a kludge to get variety. You get one class, customize its features, and maybe a PrC. This is because every single class gets *features*. If you multiclass, your character sucks, because you don't get any features.

[Ofmossandmoose]

OK so no monk barb... No multiclassing...

Yes I mixed up barb and monk alignment, oops.

I'll deal with lawful with afford by aasimir trait allowing me to be neutral good and still gain levels.

So it seems monk it is... Hmm

[exelsisxax]

OK so no monk barb... No multiclassing...

Yes I mixed up barb and monk alignment, oops.

I'll deal with lawful with afford by aasimir trait allowing me to be neutral good and still gain levels.

So it seems monk it is... Hmm

Monks can't teleport, a monk/barb is terrible even if you finagle your way into having both classes, aasimar are stronger than standard races and might be barred by your DM, aasimar are garbage barbs and mediocre monks anyway.

If you want to play a monk, it's the only (base) class you get. Unchained monks actually get some nice things this time around, but multiclassing generally provides no benefit at all while not advancing your useful features.

[Hogsy]

The problem with Pathfinder is that very few classes support multiclassing, and what people in PF do, is called dipping. Enter a class for 1 to 3 levels(tops) to gain some nice class features that don't require class levels to scale. What you're trying to do can be done with Monk 12, his Abundant Step class feature and the Dimensional Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-agility) feat chain. Now, you could do the same thing with Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker but it'd be more limited, except you can pick up Dimensional Jaunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/rite-publishing---rogue-archetypes/dimensional-jaunter-rogue-archetype) (3PP) and take the dimensional rogue talents that allow you to pick up Dimensional Agility(you don't get sick from teleportation) -> Dimensional Assault(teleporting charge) -> Dimensional Dervish(full attacking while blinking around your target) -> Dimensional Savant(Not necessary, but you flank with yourself for free SA.). You could always put some Alchemist in there and focus on the melee mutagens to boost your damage while keeping that "analyst/botanist" feel, while having a more mystical approach towards your planar studies. You can pick Master of Many Styles to get free monk feats such as Dragon Style->Dragon Ferocity and others in order to keep up on damage. With Dimensional Assault (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-assault) and Dragon Ferocity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat), you'd be doing a buttload of damage. You could also pick a half caster class to emulate the smart part of your char without losing too much BAB instead of the Alchemist. Go Unchained Monk(he gets Ubundant Step at 8) if possible or try to pick up 3-4 natural attacks(2 claws, 1 bite, 2 hooves or something similar) to have a better FoB than your regular FoB if your DM allows multiattack.



Monks can't teleport, a monk/barb is terrible even if you finagle your way into having both classes, aasimar are stronger than standard races and might be barred by your DM, aasimar are garbage barbs and mediocre monks anyway.

If you want to play a monk, it's the only (base) class you get. Unchained monks actually get some nice things this time around, but multiclassing generally provides no benefit at all while not advancing your useful features.

Abundant Step (Su)

At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability.

The monks can cast Dimension Door quite a lot of times per day, you can squeeze in Qiggong for Ki Vampirism and you'll be able to cast it all day long. It's extremely efficient for a TWFing Unchained Monk(Since he gets it at 8) who's using Dimensional Dervish.

[exelsisxax]

Ah. I didn't know they put it back into UCmonk, and they even made it easier to get as well.

[Hogsy]

OK so no monk barb... No multiclassing...

Yes I mixed up barb and monk alignment, oops.

I'll deal with lawful with afford by aasimir trait allowing me to be neutral good and still gain levels.

So it seems monk it is... Hmm

You can play Monk->Bloodrager, be a master of the elements while picking up an elemental style along with the Elemental Fist feat to deal some nice bonus elemental damage with your fists, plus you'll be able to rage without problems, plus some rage powers add even more elemental dice to your fists! Now, if your DM is feeling generous, you could squeeze in 1 or two magus levels in there, and pick up the Spell Blending(I think you'll have to be magus 3 for this) magus arcana. It allows you to take a lower level Wizard spell, but since the wizard and the sorcerer have same spell lists, ask your DM to make this a "sorcerer spell". Then, select the Blood Havoc bloodline mutation from the Bloodrager, and that spell(preferably Shocking Grasp). Make your magus an eldritch scion to select a sorcerer's bloodline, and select the Draconic one. Your shocking grasp is now dealing 2 extra damage per dice. Put 2 traits on it to reduce metamagic costs and you'll be able to maximize AND empower it pretty cheaply by level 6-8. Buy a couple of level 1 pearls of power and you're golden. Make your bloodrager crossblooded, pick up Blood Intensity and you get a free Intensify Spell which scales with your STR or CHA mod. The bad news is that it's 1/day and scales with bloodrager levels. Lesser Intensify Spell rods are cheap af tho.

[Ofmossandmoose]

Adopted by aasimir trait isn't a race it's a trait allowing for neutral good monks... However there is also a martial artist monk who has no alignment requirements... What's up with that? Whats better doing martial artist monk or doing unchained and taking the adopted by aasimir trait?

Also I'm thri-kreen so I have 4 natural claw and 1 bite

[Deadline]

Also I'm thri-kreen so I have 4 natural claw and 1 bite

What rules are you using for a Thri-kreen in Pathfinder?

[Roog]

It sounds like a Stalker or Harbinger could use the Veiled Moon discipline to do the sort of thing that you are looking for.

(from Path of War, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war)

[Ofmossandmoose]

Not sure what rules for thri-kreen. I think it's up to me to find one and present for consideration.

Any suggestions that keep it as close as possible to the thri-kreen found in the thri-kreen of athas book?

[exelsisxax]

Not sure what rules for thri-kreen. I think it's up to me to find one and present for consideration.

Any suggestions that keep it as close as possible to the thri-kreen found in the thri-kreen of athas book?

Have you asked if you can do that at all or are you just assuming? You still haven't said anything about campaign rules and limitations. For all we know, "no monks" is one of your DM's houserules.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Have you asked if you can do that at all or are you just assuming? You still haven't said anything about campaign rules and limitations. For all we know, "no monks" is one of your DM's houserules.

The gm is fairly open to anything, if I'm not trying to break the game it's OK. I already mentioned that I wanted a ranger/monk/psionicst thri-kreen...He was enthused. But we didn't speak about details.
So yes, I think we can assume that the general concept is approved.

Looking at the "creating new races" section, and comparing to existing "featured" races, we can probably go up to ~10-14 Race Points worth of racial abilities before we start getting too strong. Four arms alone will suck up eight of those points; adding in the claws and bite will take us up to 13... I think I'll drop the bite attack, which feels less iconic, and replace it with some extra speed. Use the "weakness" stat array to refund a point, add the jumper special ability, and we get...

Thri-Keen (14 RP)
Medium Humanoid (Insectoid)
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -4 Cha
40ft movement speed
Multi-Armed: Thri-Keen possess four arms. A member of this race can wield multiple weapons, but only one hand is its primary hand, and all others are off hands. It can also use its hands for other purposes that require free hands.
Jumper: Thri-Keen are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump.
Natural Weapons: Thri-Keen have four claws as primary natural weapons, each dealing 1d4 damage

You could reduce the speed to 30ft to add in a 1d3 base damage bite attack, if you prefer.

[exelsisxax]

You could also give up 2 of those natural attacks for +1 natural armor. Thri-keen are almost always depicted with a claw arm pair and manipulator arm pair, and usually have natural armor.

[CharonsHelper]

Frankly - that version of Thri-Keen (like so many ways to use the race builder) seems crazy broken.

Cool - but very OP.

[Ofmossandmoose]

I'm thinking of some other penalties as well as some other bonuses that would bring it in line with the 2e athas version.

Is there anything else I can use to offset more rp pts? A biggie seems to be the inability to speak common, or most humanoid languages. What should I argue is that worth -2rp? Or just -1?

I remember them having an aversion to fire. Should that translate as a fear that would trigger a saving throw of some sort when faced with certain intensities of fire... Or maybe even a susceptibility to fire? What's that worth?

Also tempted to make charisma -4 instead of -2

[Ofmossandmoose]

And they didn't swim well, they had problems with chitin rot when in humid conditions for a prolonged time.

[exelsisxax]

Frankly - that version of Thri-Keen (like so many ways to use the race builder) seems crazy broken.

Cool - but very OP.
It's significantly weaker than aasimar and tieflings. The only thing it's really good for is a super low-level natural attacker where 4 attacks is really good despite having awful damage.


I'm thinking of some other penalties as well as some other bonuses that would bring it in line with the 2e athas version.

Is there anything else I can use to offset more rp pts? A biggie seems to be the inability to speak common, or most humanoid languages. What should I argue is that worth -2rp? Or just -1?

I remember them having an aversion to fire. Should that translate as a fear that would trigger a saving throw of some sort when faced with certain intensities of fire... Or maybe even a susceptibility to fire? What's that worth?

Also tempted to make charisma -4 instead of -2

You can't trade away the ability to speak common - that makes you a non-interactable NPC.
Humans don't like being on fire either, and trench foot is a thing. Don't get into wierd nitpicky fluff things and try to turn them into mechanics like that.

[Ofmossandmoose]

Would being a level behind the other characters, be an acceptable trade for more rp?

The campaign is already established, so the characters are at least a few levels in, in addition to what they might have started at.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm thinking of some other penalties as well as some other bonuses that would bring it in line with the 2e athas version.

Is there anything else I can use to offset more rp pts? A biggie seems to be the inability to speak common, or most humanoid languages. What should I argue is that worth -2rp? Or just -1?

I remember them having an aversion to fire. Should that translate as a fear that would trigger a saving throw of some sort when faced with certain intensities of fire... Or maybe even a susceptibility to fire? What's that worth?

Also tempted to make charisma -4 instead of -2
Charisma is -4. You could add Fire Vulnerability for -2 RP, meaning you take half again as much damage. Which isn't the worst idea; fire is common and those four claws are pretty nasty. I like exelsisxax's idea as well. Maybe something like

Thri-Keen (12 RP)
Medium Humanoid (Insectoid)
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -4 Cha
40ft movement speed
Carapace: Thri-Keen have a hard, chitinous exosekelton which grants them a +1 natural armor bonus. However, this shell is very flammable, rendering them Vulnerable to fire damage.
Bonus Arms: Thri-Keen possess four arms. They can wield multiple weapons, but only one hand is its primary hand, and all others are off hands. It can also use its hands for other purposes that require free hands. Additionally, their dominant two arms are tipped with fierce claws. The claws are primary natural weapons, each dealing 1d4 damage
Jumper: Thri-Keen are always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump.

Which is reasonable on its own, or could be decorated with a few more fluffy bits.

[exelsisxax]

Would being a level behind the other characters, be an acceptable trade for more rp?

The campaign is already established, so the characters are at least a few levels in, in addition to what they might have started at.

No, it wouldn't. That's a really bad idea - start at the same level as everybody else and RP whatever the hell you want because it has no connection at all to your level. You say your DM is pretty permissive so he's not going to start you weaker or anything.

[CharonsHelper]

It's significantly weaker than aasimar and tieflings. The only thing it's really good for is a super low-level natural attacker where 4 attacks is really good despite having awful damage.

I'd disagree.

The four arms is a massive bonus. If you play any class which gains significant static damage then it just becomes ridiculous. Plus, the -4 CHA doesn't mean much to 80% of classes, while +2 WIS is useful to every martial to shore up their Will save.

It would instantly become by far the best race for Unchained Rogues and most other Dex-based martials.

The race builder DRASTICALLY undervalues multiple arms, and it ignores that CHA isn't useful to most classes.

[Ofmossandmoose]

The original PC race from thri-kreen of athas, couldn't speak common or most humanoid races. They had to speak with characters who learned thri-kreen.

And they actually had a mechanic if you were adventuring in jungle or swamps for a mold or rot that would give you penalties that would accumulate over the amount of days you were there.

[Ofmossandmoose]

Any good PC generators with custom races for Android?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Maybe make the second pair only usable for holding and manipulating objects, but not wielding weapons or shields?

[Ofmossandmoose]

This is why I suggested being a level behind or other vulnerabilities.

Because I'm trying to port this as directly from the 2ndEd athas version of thri-kreen as possible.

In thri-kreen of Athas They used 4 arms to fight. They also don't sleep are immune to sleep spells and effects, need 4 hours of tupor its like sleep but aware, are very bad swimmers, are afraid of fire and vulnerable to rot. They also have poison, are natural jumpers and have faster movement rate, with dark vision and bonus to AC. Traditionally they were +2wis +2dex -1str -2char. They also can natural attack claw claw claw claw bite. They also cannot wear most armor unless it's custom made. This also applies to other things like helmets, hats etc, shoes, gloves etc.

[CharonsHelper]

Maybe make the second pair only usable for holding and manipulating objects, but not wielding weapons or shields?

So basically the extra two arms would work like a tiefling's tail who took Prehensile Tail? That would work.

Even if they worked like an alchemist's vestigial arms they wouldn't be too terrible as that would prevent multi-weapon fighting. That would still allow them to both use a sword two-handed, have a shield, and an extra arm for items or a wand. Still quite potent - but not crazy OP. Maybe still not give them the +2 Wis so that they're a bit behind in stats to even them out. So maybe +2 Dex / -2 Cha

[Ofmossandmoose]

No they use 2 arms as main attacks 2 as secondary.

[Ofmossandmoose]

Anyways I'll go over a specific thri-kreen build with the gm and what limitations.

So I'm looking now at the classes

Stalker, unchained monk, and martial artist monk... Any thoughts?

[exelsisxax]

Anyways I'll go over a specific thri-kreen build with the gm and what limitations.

So I'm looking now at the classes

Stalker, unchained monk, and martial artist monk... Any thoughts?

The stalker, from PoW, can be thought of as having the mechanics of a spellcasting class. There's a lot of bookkeeping and planning involved just to play one. I recommend not playing any such class until you know the system better.

The unchained monk is strictly superior to the original crap monk. It is also compatible with most monk archetypes.

Martial artist, however, is right out. It loses the abundant step class feature, so you lose all that teleportation and mobility you want.

[Ofmossandmoose]

Well there we go unchained monk it is! Now Is their a way to shoot for a archetype that gives the Monk a more planes wanderer feel that doesn't screw up the Monk powers to badly? Choosing a slightly suboptimal archetype isn't totally bad it might be a way to compensate for 4 arms too.

[Ofmossandmoose]

One class we didn't talk about was dervish, I've seen a few of these classes out there... How does it compare to monk? I know it utilizes movement as part of attacking.

[CharonsHelper]

The unchained monk is strictly superior to the original crap monk. It is also compatible with most monk archetypes.

The Unchained monk is specifically called out as NOT being compatible with any previous archetypes, though it now has a few of its own.

The Unchained monk is better than the core monk, but it's about the same as if you combo multiple archetypes on the base monk (always including qinggong), and definitely easier to build. I'd definitely recommend it for a new player.

Of note: Flurry & TWF (or multi-weapon fighting) do not stack.

@OP - Curious - why are you so married to the idea of playing a Thri-Keen?

[exelsisxax]

One class we didn't talk about was dervish, I've seen a few of these classes out there... How does it compare to monk? I know it utilizes movement as part of attacking.

Dervish isn't a class. It could refer to any of a feat chain or 4 archetypes: 2 for bard, 1 magus, and a swashbuckler.


The Unchained monk is specifically called out as NOT being compatible with any previous archetypes, though it now has a few of its own.

The Unchained monk is better than the core monk, but it's about the same as if you combo multiple archetypes on the base monk (always including qinggong), and definitely easier to build. I'd definitely recommend it for a new player.

Of note: Flurry & TWF (or multi-weapon fighting) do not stack.

@OP - Curious - why are you so married to the idea of playing a Thri-Keen?

His DM is described as cool so he'll allow archetypes.

[CharonsHelper]

His DM is described as cool so he'll allow archetypes.

It's cool to allow broken combinations? (Some base monk archetypes gain awesome stuff by giving up things which the Umonk would give up much less. Like archetypes which give up Flurry, which is also giving up the base monk's pseudo-full BAB while the Umonk actually has full BAB.)

How is that being cool?

By "cool" do you mean likes to play a hot mess of horrible balance?

[exelsisxax]

It's cool to allow broken combinations? (Some base monk archetypes gain awesome stuff by giving up things which the Umonk would give up much less. Like archetypes which give up Flurry, which is also giving up the base monk's pseudo-full BAB while the Umonk actually has full BAB.)

How is that being cool?

By "cool" do you mean likes to play a hot mess of horrible balance?

The DM will allow reasonable archetypes. It's just like UCbarb, some don't work at all, some need tinkering, others are perfectly fine. In any case though, OP doesn't know how skill ranks work. He's not going to munchkin or optimize the game to death unless we tell him exactly how to go about doing that.

So don't, alright?

[Manyasone]

To pitch in, just my 2 euros. What he describes can indeed be done with the PoW Stalker (Veiled Moon and the Veiled Moon style feats make for potent combat teleportation) plus it is also a skillfull and wisdom-based class, very much so and better than the UMonk.
If you are adamant about playing an insectoid race, take a look at the Tosculi (Kobold Press -Advanced Races Compendium) Your DM already allows third party material, so...they are small, however, unlike the big praying manti

[Ofmossandmoose]

I'm not actually wanting to super min/max I'm already flirting with the idea of starting a level behind to balance being a more realistic thr-kreen so yeah.

Reason I'm stuck? They are one of the best fleshed out races. I think they offer tons of rp possibilities while allowing me to play interesting styles of combat.

Yea I realized dervishes are an archetype, not a class it was late when I looked it up. Also they don't let you use two weapons which absolutely doesn't work with this idea.

[Ofmossandmoose]

However with two main attacks could I double up dervish attacks?With a higher then normal base speed, and a higher Dex modified Ac... Kinda neat.

It would be fun to dance around the battlefield.