(PF) Utility or Sneak Attack Wand for a Rogue?

[Coidzor]

Got an offer for reduced price low level wand crafting in a Way of the Wicked game, and my character can also just craft wondrous items. Was thinking of making our unchained rogue a ranged sneak attack command word item but since there's a wand offer on the table, too, I wanted to see what we could do on that front if we decided against some utility wand, like a wand of invisibility.

We're on the Siege of Balentyne segment.

I've gotten to wondering whether going straight spell level or angling towards metamagic would be better for sneak attack blasting.

I was thinking Ray of Frost or Snowball(iceball?) with the Rime Spell metamagic might be interesting for sneak attacking and debuffing all at once. Though I suppose entanglement for only one round probably isn't worth the price increase, generally speaking.

Is there a spell that works with sneak attack and then either on it's own or in combination with a metamagic feat can set up an enemy as vulnerable to sneak attack on the rogue's next turn?

Maybe Umbral Spell plus something to effectively blind a creature and render the Rogue unseen by them? Though I'd need to double-check if they have a way to see through the resulting light alteration.

Or if we go with a utility wand instead, what's your pick from level 3 spells or lower?

Also, Toxic Spell metamagic; are there any poisons that are decentish and have a low enough price that it's not too insane to add them to a magic item?

Edit: Actually... Are there any spells that are legal targets of Toxic Spell that also can work with Sneak Attack?

[Topaz]

Thinking back on when I was running an Arcane Trickster, Snowball sounds like a good idea, and both Shocking Grasp (especially at CL 5) and Scorching Ray are wands that combine well with Sneak Attacks. As far as non-attack wands, there's nothing like Mirror Image to make a Rogue in your face utterly annoying, and it's 3rd level, but Twilight Knife is a flanking buddy on demand.

Don't forget your Spring-loaded Wrist Sheaths (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-and-armor-accessories#TOC-Wrist-Sheath-spring-loaded) for deploying a wand with a Swift Action.

[Coidzor]

Trying to figure this out, but is there any way to get Toxic Spell and Sneak Attack to work on the same spell? Other than convincing the DM to make it work with Fortitude Partial spells, where the save is for a rider effect on a blast?


Thinking back on when I was running an Arcane Trickster, Snowball sounds like a good idea, and both Shocking Grasp (especially at CL 5) and Scorching Ray are wands that combine well with Sneak Attacks. As far as non-attack wands, there's nothing like Mirror Image to make a Rogue in your face utterly annoying, and it's 3rd level, but Twilight Knife is a flanking buddy on demand.

Don't forget your Spring-loaded Wrist Sheaths (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-and-armor-accessories#TOC-Wrist-Sheath-spring-loaded) for deploying a wand with a Swift Action.

Good point on that. I just did some digging and it seems like there's even room for Scorching Ray to allow for multiple sneak attacks, unlike 3.5's ruling on the matter. Probably going to stay away from Shocking Grasp and similar spells, though, because melee is already covered by the Rogue's TWF ability and their Viridium(?) dagger that gives people leprosy.

Twilight Knife is definitely one that while I probably won't use it now, I will keep it in mind for later. Flanking, Force Damage, Sneak Attack of its own, that's all a very nice package, I think.

I'm thinking that grabbing as spell that gives more damage based on CL or more attacks and combining it with a metamagic to raise the CL a bit probably partially mitigates the normal costs of metamagic to some extent, or, well, not mitigates, but makes the extra cost do double duty for our purposes.

[Topaz]

Trying to figure this out, but is there any way to get Toxic Spell and Sneak Attack to work on the same spell? Other than convincing the DM to make it work with Fortitude Partial spells, where the save is for a rider effect on a blast?

I don't know of any arcane spells that combine a ranged touch attack with a save to partial damage unless you count Disintegrate, but if your DM allows you to count spells with a save against a non-damage rider then besides Snowball there's also Gloomblind Bolts (reflex save to avoid temporary blindness).

[Psyren]

Good point on that. I just did some digging and it seems like there's even room for Scorching Ray to allow for multiple sneak attacks, unlike 3.5's ruling on the matter.

You sure about that? (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm)

[CharonsHelper]

I'm assuming that the rogue will be using the wand?

Two questions -

1. Are they an Unchained Rogue? (Please say yes - core rogue sucks.) And if so - are they going to take minor/major magic? (pretty sweet - Minor Magic lets them use a cantrip like Acid Splash at will)

2. If they aren't taking it with Major Magic, have you considered Shield? +4 AC is nothing to sniff at. (Though arguably not worth it when it only lasts 1min per casting.)

[Coidzor]

I'm assuming that the rogue will be using the wand?

Two questions -

1. Are they an Unchained Rogue? (Please say yes - core rogue sucks.) And if so - are they going to take minor/major magic? (pretty sweet - Minor Magic lets them use a cantrip like Acid Splash at will)

2. If they aren't taking it with Major Magic, have you considered Shield? +4 AC is nothing to sniff at. (Though arguably not worth it when it only lasts 1min per casting.)

Preferably one that isn't only useful in the hands of my shaman,

The player is considering minor magic, I'll check with them about their build on that front, thank you.

With a better CL, it'd come in handy for buffing when we know a fight is coming soon, as most of us are shieldless or buckler-using. Defense wasn't really what I was thinking about, though. At this point, I want to focus on something that benefits all of us in our current situation. Ranged sneak attack without leaving weapon-based evidence and having some ready access to invisibility beside my limited spell slots I have to prepare in advance were the first to come to mind.

As it stands, I'm leaning toward utility for this wand deal, maybe a cantrip item for our UnRogue made by my own character if they're not grabbing a Minor Magic attack cantrip.

[CharonsHelper]

With a better CL, it'd come in handy for buffing when we know a fight is coming soon, as most of us are shieldless or buckler-using. Defense wasn't really what I was thinking about, though. At this point, I want to focus on something that benefits all of us in our current situation.

1. Shield is a personal spell, so anyone without either the spell or Use Magic Device couldn't take advantage of the Shield wand.

2. Having the rogue not die horribly in melee benefits everyone!

(Also - I'm not sure how often the cantrip wand would be worth taking up one of his hands.)

[stanprollyright]

CL9 Magic Missile: 5d4+5*(sneak attack dice)+5, never misses.

[CharonsHelper]

CL9 Magic Missile: 5d4+5*(sneak attack dice)+5, never misses.

You don't get sneak attack with Magic Missile.

You only get Sneak Attack if you made an attack roll.

[exelsisxax]

CL9 Magic Missile: 5d4+5*(sneak attack dice)+5, never misses.

You only get one (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm) SA instance, actually. Multi-shot spells a crap for this.

[CharonsHelper]

You only get one (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm) SA instance, actually. Multi-shot spells a crap for this.

As I said above - Magic Missile gets you ZERO Sneak Attacks.

[exelsisxax]

As I said above - Magic Missile gets you ZERO Sneak Attacks.

People say that a lot and it makes sense, but i've never seen that supported by RAW. RAI, surely. But i've never seen the part in SA descriptions that mentions needing to make an attack.

In any case, multi-shot spells still grant only a single SA per casting. AoE, on the other hand, can SA every qualifying target if you get surprise spells.

[Psyren]

People say that a lot and it makes sense, but i've never seen that supported by RAW. RAI, surely. But i've never seen the part in SA descriptions that mentions needing to make an attack.

Even if you avoid the clarifications in subsequent books and stick purely to core, it's disallowed by these two lines:


The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.


Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out.

[exelsisxax]

Even if you avoid the clarifications in subsequent books and stick purely to core, it's disallowed by these two lines:

Magic missile bars itself, and it has nothing to do with its lack of attack roll. His claim, that an attack roll is required, remains wholly unsubstantiated.

[Psyren]

Magic missile bars itself, and it has nothing to do with its lack of attack roll. His claim, that an attack roll is required, remains wholly unsubstantiated.

I was responding to the directly quoted claims - he said "Magic Missile gets zero sneak attacks" and you replied "there is no RAW support for this"; so I was pointing out that, at least in Magic Missile's case, there is.

[CharonsHelper]

People say that a lot and it makes sense, but i've never seen that supported by RAW. RAI, surely. But i've never seen the part in SA descriptions that mentions needing to make an attack.

It's in the first paragraph.


If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

Not to mention this more specifically...



How does the Surprise Spells class feature of the Arcane Trickster prestige class (Core Rulebook, page 378) work with spells like magic missile and fireball?


The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.

There wouldn't be a FAQ about Magic Missile with Surprise Spell if it already got SA without it.

[exelsisxax]

It's in the first paragraph.

Shooting someone with homing missiles constitutes an attack. Similarly, splash weapons don't qualify for SA, despite requiring attack rolls.

[CharonsHelper]

Shooting someone with homing missiles constitutes an attack.

No it isn't. In Pathfinder an attack has to have an attack roll. (Don't call out the Invisibility description, because it specifically says "for purposes of this spell" which implies that "any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe" doesn't normally count as an attack.


Similarly, splash weapons don't qualify for SA, despite requiring attack rolls.

That's because it's specifically called out as an exception to the general rule.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. Here's an interesting one. Weakness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/rune-magic/script-list/weakness) from the Runic Magic alternate system. Has a ranged touch attack and Fortitude Negates. Doesn't do damage on its own, though...


1. Shield is a personal spell, so anyone without either the spell or Use Magic Device couldn't take advantage of the Shield wand.

2. Having the rogue not die horribly in melee benefits everyone!

(Also - I'm not sure how often the cantrip wand would be worth taking up one of his hands.)

I'm envisioning the main use would be a readied action that's relatively quiet but we don't want a guard getting adjacent to us before striking or for pseudo-sniping. Currently still talking to the other player about this off and on, though.

...this just gave me the amusing idea of making a use activated or command word gun that fires an ice beam or lasers, though.

Probably wanna go with something that means the rogue is in darkness or dim light, due to racial bonuses in low lighting, as that would do double duty to boost their defense and offense.