Is there a half Orc variant without an Int penalty?

[NecroDancer]

I want to build a Half-Orc archivist of Grumush but I've ran into a problem, Half-Orcs have a int penalty.

If anyone knows a template that could get rid of the int penalty could you please share it and the spice book where you got it. Thanks!

[Jeff the Green]

Not that I can find, no. You might see if your DM is okay with using PF races. Their hal-orcs get +2 to an ability score of their choice.

[Stealth Marmot]

Races of Destiny happens to have a race that is kin to a half-orc but isn't, I think it doesn't have an Int penalty.

[Inevitability]

Changeling with Racial Emulation, maybe?


Races of Destiny happens to have a race that is kin to a half-orc but isn't, I think it doesn't have an Int penalty.

You're thinking of the Sharakim (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=3), which actually have an intelligence bonus. However, they completely lack the orc subtype and despise orcs: it'd be unlikely for one to serve Gruumsh. To make things even worse, they have a LA.

[lylsyly]

How does Grumush feel about having undead followers?

Ghoulish from Dragon 307 mentions +1CR but no LA comes with other bonuses has well.

Vampire From MM mentions +2CR but no LAEDIT: Scratch that

[DrMotives]

Races of the Faerun has Orog, and underdark orc variant with no int adjustment, and a cha boost as well. Sadly, they are LA+2. No RHD, but plenty of perks like a net +4 stat mod, 120 darkvision, fire & cold resist 5 each, etc.

[Troacctid]

How does Grumush feel about having undead followers?

Ghoulish from Dragon 307 mentions +1CR but no LA comes with other bonuses has well.

Vampire From MM mentions +2CR but no LAEDIT: Scratch that
That's because it's 3.0 content and there was no such thing as LA until the 3.5 update introduced it.

[Red Fel]

Well, it's not a Half-Orc, but Orogs (Races of Faerun, p. 71) also known as Deep Orcs, are an LA +2 Orc race with +Str, +Cha, -Dex, and -Wis, so no Int penalty.

As for templates with +Int, here's what I've found:
Half-Elemental (Air, Fire, or Water) for LA +3, from Manual of the Planes (updated to 3.5)
Half-Celestial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm) or Half-Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) for LA +4
Half-Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) for LA +3
Half-Janni for LA+3, from Sandstorm
Gravetouched Ghoul for LA +2, from Libris Mortis (if you don't mind being Undead)
Vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm) for LA +8, or Vampire Lord (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) for no additional charge (if you don't mind being Undead)
Lich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) for LA +4 (if you don't mind being Undead)
Half-Illithid for LA +5, from Underdark, or Voidmind for LA +1, from Monster Manual 3
Those were a few I found. You'll note that they tend to be high-LA. Pretty sure there's a reason for that.

[CharonsHelper]

Switch over to Pathfinder?

[lylsyly]

Check this thread; INT is post 4 or 5 here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=176)

[supersonic29]

Check this thread; INT is post 4 or 5 here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=176)

This guy has the goods.

Primordial giant, but you probably don't want that Str/Con penalty.
Vow of poverty if you hate yourself want a challenge.
Some weird class dips
2% chance from some deformity in BoVD
You can make two Faustian Pacts (FC2) if you don't mind book-shaped bruises.
Or you could be old!

[neriractor]

You're thinking of the Sharakim (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=3), which actually have an intelligence bonus. However, they completely lack the orc subtype and despise orcs: it'd be unlikely for one to serve Gruumsh. To make things even worse, they have a LA.

Sharakin don´t really deserve an LA, all things said, the best thing about them is their ability scores and unless you take a casting class (or factotum, I guess) that intelligence is generally doing nothing for you that a human wouldn´t do.

[ShurikVch]

Is there a half Orc variant without an Int penalty?Half-Orcs in Warcraft the RPG get +2 Con/-2 Wis



How does Grumush feel about having undead followers?Usually, undead is more Shargaas stuff. Or Yurtrus.


That's because it's 3.0 content and there was no such thing as LA until the 3.5 update introduced it.Was reprinted in Dragon Compendium (2005). Still no LA. (Not "LA: -" - no at all)

[Troacctid]

Was reprinted in Dragon Compendium (2005). Still no LA. (Not "LA: -" - no at all)
Yes, that was the norm for all templates at the time.

[ShurikVch]

Yes, that was the norm for all templates at the time.Which "the time"? 2005?
Level Adjustment already existed for years, and, actually, included for every monster in that book... Except templates...

Anyway, Ghoulish template required at least 4 HD. It's not just stops from getting it at lower levels, but also can cause arguments about if it mean "racial HD", or "class HD" would work too...

[Stealth Marmot]

You're thinking of the Sharakim (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=3), which actually have an intelligence bonus. However, they completely lack the orc subtype and despise orcs: it'd be unlikely for one to serve Gruumsh. To make things even worse, they have a LA.

Ah, I didn't have the book with me.

[Inevitability]

Sharakin don´t really deserve an LA, all things said, the best thing about them is their ability scores and unless you take a casting class (or factotum, I guess) that intelligence is generally doing nothing for you that a human wouldn´t do.

Oh, definitely. Not all DMs allow LA rebalancing, though.

[Red Fel]

This guy has the goods.

Primordial giant, but you probably don't want that Str/Con penalty.
Vow of poverty if you hate yourself want a challenge.

Two problems. First, pretty sure Primordial Giant is only available for Giants, of which Orcs are not one. (I'd have to be sure, though; don't recall for certain.) Second, it's incredibly difficult to take an Exalted feat while trying to be a follower of Gruumsh. There are some non-Evil Orc deities, but Gruumsh is a fairly bad dude. While I don't recall Archivists having to be within one step of a deity (as per Cleric), it's hard to engage in the worship of an Evil deity without at least being okay with the idea of horrible stuff.

[SimonMoon6]

Two problems. First, pretty sure Primordial Giant is only available for Giants,

That's a shame. Looking at those +0 LA templates, I notice that Proto-Creature and Primordial Giant just about cancel each other out, except that you end up with an overall +2 intelligence and no other stat modifiers. Of course, there are probably other drawbacks to layering those two templates that are not immediately obvious.

[supersonic29]

Two problems. First, pretty sure Primordial Giant is only available for Giants, of which Orcs are not one. (I'd have to be sure, though; don't recall for certain.) Second, it's incredibly difficult to take an Exalted feat while trying to be a follower of Gruumsh. There are some non-Evil Orc deities, but Gruumsh is a fairly bad dude. While I don't recall Archivists having to be within one step of a deity (as per Cleric), it's hard to engage in the worship of an Evil deity without at least being okay with the idea of horrible stuff.

I didn't check the text, but as I recall the primordial giant is an oversized and less evolved version of the base creature, but I may be mixing it up with the proto-creature template. If PG does need that type, does any template or anything give you the giant type?
As for the exalted feat, you aren't wrong by flavor of the book, but I'm not actually seeing anything in the feats Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty requiring any alignment (unless it's somewhere at the beginning of the exalted feat chapter?) That being, you'd just have to find a good flavor explanation for your being self-impoverished on Gruumsh's behalf. Maybe something about tearing things apart with your own two hands in his honor, I don't recall his exact ideals. Also, even if exalted feats are listed as for good characters somewhere, you could appeal to a DM to allow you to take this specific vow if you did have such a flavor explanation, though you would surely never take the vows of nonviolence or chastity in Gruumsh's name. :smallbiggrin:

Edit:

That's a shame. Looking at those +0 LA templates, I notice that Proto-Creature and Primordial Giant just about cancel each other out, except that you end up with an overall +2 intelligence and no other stat modifiers. Of course, there are probably other drawbacks to layering those two templates that are not immediately obvious.

If that is indeed the case, that might be exactly what is needed here, the original goal being to simply cancel out a -2 to int.

[Red Fel]

I didn't check the text, but as I recall the primordial giant is an oversized and less evolved version of the base creature, but I may be mixing it up with the proto-creature template. If PG does need that type, does any template or anything give you the giant type?

Primordial Giant refers to the less physical, more mental giants found in Xen'drik, if memory serves. And having just checked, yes, it does require the Giant type. That said, the Half-Troll template (Fiend Folio) grants the Giant type at a cost of -2 Int. Since Primordial Giant grants +4, that's a net +2. However, Half-Troll is also +4 LA.

Incarnate Construct can also turn a Large or larger Construct into a Giant, but you need to become a Construct first, and be Large or larger; more hoops there.


As for the exalted feat, you aren't wrong by flavor of the book, but I'm not actually seeing anything in the feats Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty requiring any alignment (unless it's somewhere at the beginning of the exalted feat chapter?) That being, you'd just have to find a good flavor explanation for your being self-impoverished on Gruumsh's behalf. Maybe something about tearing things apart with your own two hands in his honor, I don't recall his exact ideals. Also, even if exalted feats are listed as for good characters somewhere, you could appeal to a DM to allow you to take this specific vow if you did have such a flavor explanation, though you would surely never take the vows of nonviolence or chastity in Gruumsh's name. :smallbiggrin:

Except that all feats with the [Exalted] tag have the requirement of an Exalted alignment - that is, ultra-Good.

That said, there's so much fluff in that book that, honestly, I could see being willing to refluff it somewhat. But short version, doesn't quite jive.

[Inevitability]

Except that all feats with the [Exalted] tag have the requirement of an Exalted alignment - that is, ultra-Good.

Not quite. The BoED says the following about exalted feats:


EXALTED FEATS
This book introduces a new type of feat: the exalted feat. Only
intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral
standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful
agents of good—deities, celestials, or similar creatures.
These feats are thus supernatural in nature (rather than being
extraordinary abilities, as most feats are).
A character must have the DM’s permission to take an
exalted feat. In many cases, a ritual must be performed; often
this simply amounts to a character swearing a sacred vow, for
example, in the presence of a celestial being. A character who
willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits
from all his exalted feats. She regains these benefits if she
atones for her violations (see Sin and Atonement in Chapter 1).
Aura of Good: A character with at least one exalted feat radiates
an aura of good with a power equal to her character level (see the
detect good spell), as if she were a paladin or a cleric of a good deity.

Interestingly, there are only four references to the good alignment here, and none of them says 'you must be Good'.

1. The feat can only be taken by an intelligent, good being 'of the highest moral standard'. This only refers to acquiring the feat.

2. The feat must be granted by a Good being. Again, this is only necessary for acquisition. The being isn't stated anywhere to be able to remove the feat afterwards (unlike Vile feats).

3. The feat is lost if someone 'willingly and willfully' commits an evil act.

4. The feat causes someone to radiate an aura of good.


Now, let's imagine a Good person with Exalted feats who unwittingly puts on a Helm of Opposite Alignment. They turn evil, but don't lose their Exalted feat until an evil act is committed. They still radiate an aura of Good, but that's not dysfunctional: fallen angels have a similar predicament.

In fact, by quickly placing the corrupted creature under some magical compulsion, their actions cease being 'willing and willful'. It doesn't matter if deep down, their evil self is okay with these acts: they aren't the ones performing them and therefore can't lose their Exalted feats from their deeds.


My point? If you have the appropriate backstory (which can be as simple as a single casting of Mindrape by an enemy), it's entirely possible to be an Evil person with Exalted feats.

[Red Fel]

Actually, the text you quoted says "Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats," which is pretty conclusive. That means:
You must have an intelligence score of some kind.
You might have good alignment.
You must have the highest moral standards.
Bold text is the important part. You say that none of them specify "You must be Good," but that one pretty much says exactly that. You must have "good alignment" to take the feat. Willingly committing an Evil act - you know, the kind of thing that has a tendency to make you non-Good - will cause you to lose it.

Now, you offer an interesting hypothetical - a Good character who is involuntarily rendered Evil - but it's an abstract concept. As soon as the now-Evil character takes an Evil action, he loses the feat. And it's highly improbable that he's going to be in a situation where there is absolutely no opportunity to act upon his new outlook on life for an extended period.

A hypothetical character who was Exalted, took the feat, was involuntarily alignment-shifted, and came to worship Gruumsh all before the start of the game would - in all probability - lose the feat before gameplay even began. Short of the most secular "reverence" for Gruumsh possible ("I'm culturally Gruumsh, but I don't go to services or anything,") there is no way for someone who engages in the worship of a CE deity to avoid taking an Evil action. Even if it's something like chanting "Death to all filthy Elves" at a bonfire celebration or something, it will happen eventually.

[supersonic29]

You could be so bold as to argue that if their alignment was unwillingly shifted with the helmet then any actions caused/altered by the new alignment are unwilling. Admittedly that's a real big stretch, as I think the helmet text words the individual as becoming in favor of their new alignment. On the other side, you might get such a stretch ruling for the sake of the player if it wasn't for the fact that they simply atone afterwards.

And on the idea of flipping the exalted requirements for an evil character, it actually sounds like a lot of fun to play a character devoted to an evil god with some vows. A CE deity probably makes less sense than LE, but however you do it.

[Pugwampy]

Umm you could burn chaste life feat and get a +2 to any AB of your choice .

You could play an old half orc , buffs Int and Wis .

I dont think Tannarukk and Orogs have any INT nerfs

[danielxcutter]

Yeah... to be honest, it would fit more if your half-orc was old, since an Archivist is basically a divine Wizard; that is, got their powers through studying. And it's not like you're going to be the beatstick, right?

[NecroDancer]

It's a pity I can't get the primordial giant template, however your suggestion to make a old Half-Orc makes sense. I can already imagine him as a grumbling elderly guy constantly saying stuff like "back in my day.....".

[Inevitability]

It's a pity I can't get the primordial giant template, however your suggestion to make a old Half-Orc makes sense. I can already imagine him as a grumbling elderly guy constantly saying stuff like "back in my day.....".

If you're going with old age, I suggest taking the desert half-orc variant. An array of -3 STR, -3 DEX, -1 CON, +2 WIS, +2 CHA is going to be better on an archivist than -1 STR, -3 DEX, -3 CON, +2 WIS.