Need help with a close-combat caster?

[imaginary]

I could use some help or suggestions for creating a close-combat caster. I'm not sure 'gish' is the right word simply because the character doesn't necessarily need to be weapon focused. In short, I enjoy being in the thick of combat and mixing it up, rather than hanging back like many ranged characters. I also enjoy casting and using spells.

Currently I'm imagining a heavily armored (STR based) caster of some sort who specializes in closer quarters combat/spell, but doesn't necessarily reply on weapon attacks to dole out damage. But this left me with a few questions:


What spells are good for close range, or perhaps more appropriately, what advantages can casters have when in close? Healers for example benefit from being in close to provide support. Thunderwave might alternately be more effective spell if generally at close range.

What type of caster or multi-class would work best? Is arcane the best way to go or divine? Tempest or War clerics (or the new Forge domain) have slightly more combat oriented options, or would a classic paladin/sorcerer be better? Or something else?

What feats are critical, is Warcaster required for concentration purposes?

What resources are out there for Gish builds, any guides or handbooks for 5e?

Lastly, any other tips or thoughts on being a close-combat caster?

Thanks,

~imaginary

[BiPolar]

This is a very interesting question and looking forward to the ideas. You have some MAD issues going on, though.

If you want your primary damage work to be casting, why do you need high STR (other than wanting Heavy Armor - which the AC could be dealt with via other methods.)

Primarily do you want to use Melee weapons or cast spells?
When you say you want Heavy Armor, are you mainly asking for as high AC as possible?
What level are you starting at, where do you think you'll get in your campaign with this character?

Overall, maybe provide a combat scenario and how you'd like to see your character working and then some options may present themselves in that style.

[Arkhios]

Every spell that has a save instead of a (ranged) attack roll are great for close range. Why? Because casting a spell doesn't provoke opportunity attack in 5th edition.
Ranged Spell Attacks suffer from disadvantage on their rolls if someone is threatening you close by.

[rooneg]

As far as feats go, if you're planning on using concentration spells at all then War Caster or Resilient CON (or starting as a class with CON save proficiency) seems pretty important. It also might not seem like it, but Crossbow Expert might be important, since a lot of common spells have ranged attack rolls associated with them, and if you want to use them while within 5 feet of a hostile creature it's nice to not be at disadvantage.

[Addaran]

You'll probably want heavy armor or very high dex with something like mage armor/dragonsorc/lizardfolk for AC.

There's 3 type of spells you need to be close to use.

Touch spells like Shocking Grasp, Inflict Wounds and Vampiric Touch.

Aoe spells centered on you (there's at least a few in EE maybe others in the phb)

Close spells, usually aoe ( Burning Hands, Thunderwave, Poison Spray) or just any spell that start on you (lightning bolt) if you want to maxime the number of targets.



Being in melee also lets you take advantage of the paladin's aura or smaller aoe buff. Like you said, you're close to heal others or to be healed if you fall. You'll help the rogue get sneak attack if you're in melee and could be usefull or benefit from things like wolf totem barbarian.

[NecroDancer]

If suggest 1 level of fighter for armor and con saves and then Abjuration wizard for that sweet ward

[Temperjoke]

I know you said you were thinking about a heavy-armored strength-based caster, but you might want to consider a Druid/Monk multiclass. Your weapon is your staff-focus, which can be used as a quarterstaff and can be considered a monk weapon, so you don't have to worry about putting a weapon away to grab a focus.

[Joe the Rat]

Put a lot of thought into cantrips. You can't throw a spell every turn - you need something between, or as set up to your big hits.

If you want to be tank-crunchy, Cleric is another decent start point. Sacred flame is 0-60' (Save based, so no point blank disadvantage), and ignores cover. If you can get a CON save to pair with it (Frostbite from Druid via Magic Initiate? Nature Cleric?), you've got good near spell options that still work at face level.

Fighter (armor, CON) /Tome Warlock (cherry pick cantrips) is another good frame. Do the unthinkable, and skip Eldrtich Blast. Now you've got good reason to be up in people's faces. Fiend gets you Burning hands (and a take-down based hp buffer), Arms of Hadar is all about being surrounded, and you come with several porcupine options (Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, Fire Shield).

Evoker wizard can do a good job here too. Int to damage on evoc spells and sculpting ("Fireball. Here. Except for me and the cat") give you some extra punch. Undying Light Tomelock can get similar love.

[Razuchee]

How about Storm Sorcerer with a level one Dip in war or life cleric? Gives you heavy armor and slightly increased survivability through shield of faith and healing spells.

[imaginary]

This is a very interesting question and looking forward to the ideas. You have some MAD issues going on, though.

If you want your primary damage work to be casting, why do you need high STR (other than wanting Heavy Armor - which the AC could be dealt with via other methods.)

Primarily do you want to use Melee weapons or cast spells?
When you say you want Heavy Armor, are you mainly asking for as high AC as possible?
What level are you starting at, where do you think you'll get in your campaign with this character?

Overall, maybe provide a combat scenario and how you'd like to see your character working and then some options may present themselves in that style.

Good points and question BiPolar. I don't totally agree on the MAD part. Generally every character needs either STR or DEX for AC. But yes, being in close combat makes AC (and CON) more important, so you have a valid point.

If I make a STR build for heavy armor (minimum 15 STR), then perhaps we would get some benefit from using a melee weapon. But I'm not imagining a character so melee oriented that he'd needs the 'Extra Attack' that most melee classes get. So with that said, I'm leaning more towards spell over weapon damage. GFB and BB might be good in-between options. The paladin could be an option for melee damage with smite, but without multiple attacks, I'm not sure how effective that will be.

I do think a high AC would be great. Given he'd likely be "softer" than other melee combatants (with less HP and staying power), I think AC would actually be pretty important. If the character's damage mainly comes from spells, that might free him up to have a shield as well. I do find that STR provides a higher AC than DEX builds, but does sacrifice saves.

I'm planning the character for Storm King's Thunder. So probably 1st through 11th level.

I'm imagining a scenario where the group is ambushed and surrounded, and there is little chance for softer ranged characters to hide out. An alternate scenario might be rushing into a room in some dungeon or another where visibility is limited from outside or far away, and there isn't a lot of space to hide out.

[Mortis_Elrod]

How about Storm Sorcerer with a level one Dip in war or life cleric? Gives you heavy armor and slightly increased survivability through shield of faith and healing spells.

OR go tempest cleric because synergy.

[JellyPooga]

You might also want to consider taking the Crossbow Expert feat, which allows you to ignore the disadvantage for making a ranged attack in melee range. Warlock + Eldritch Blast + Repelling Blast + XBow Xpert is better than Thunderwave for close range push + damage. Combine with Thorn Whip and Cloud of Daggers for great damage at any range.

[Razuchee]

OR go tempest cleric because synergy.

True, I forgot they also get heavy armor.

[Sicarius Victis]

For a close-quarters spellcaster, my standard suggestion is Gold, Red, or Brass Draconic Sorcerer, using GFB as your standard attack. Multiclass into Paladin for a shield, as well as Divine Smite and the Smite spells. 6+ levels in fire Draconic Sorcerer and 2+ in Paladin, combining Searing Smite and Green-Flame Blade, with both being enhanced by Elemental Affinity, lets you put out a LOT of damage. Add in Divine Smite for even more damage dice, when you have the slots to spare. Defensive spells such as Shield of Faith, Investiture of Flame, and Fire Shield can keep you alive quite well, and fire resistance/immunity (when using Investiture of Flame) combined with Fireballs and Minute Meteors centered on or near yourself are a great way to keep yourself alive against hordes of smaller enemies. You're a bit squishier than most front-liners, but you make up for that by being able to deal massive amounts of damage, whether single-target or AoE.

[agnos]

Arcana Cleric is the best bet imo. Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, Green Flame Blade, etc. You get a bunch of options for being in the think of it. Plus, with a feat or a 1 level Druid dip your melee stat becomes wisdom via Shillelagh.

[Nicodiemus]

For a close-quarters spellcaster, my standard suggestion is Gold, Red, or Brass Draconic Sorcerer, using GFB as your standard attack. Multiclass into Paladin for a shield, as well as Divine Smite and the Smite spells. 6+ levels in fire Draconic Sorcerer and 2+ in Paladin, combining Searing Smite and Green-Flame Blade, with both being enhanced by Elemental Affinity, lets you put out a LOT of damage. Add in Divine Smite for even more damage dice, when you have the slots to spare. Defensive spells such as Shield of Faith, Investiture of Flame, and Fire Shield can keep you alive quite well, and fire resistance/immunity (when using Investiture of Flame) combined with Fireballs and Minute Meteors centered on or near yourself are a great way to keep yourself alive against hordes of smaller enemies. You're a bit squishier than most front-liners, but you make up for that by being able to deal massive amounts of damage, whether single-target or AoE.

I thought AL was restricted to one splatbook. That means you can't have both GFB and Minute Meteors. I know the OP didn't say they were AL, but should be considered if so.

[Sicarius Victis]

I thought AL was restricted to one splatbook. That means you can't have both GFB and Minute Meteors. I know the OP didn't say they were AL, but should be considered if so.

If so, SCAG with GFB is more useful if you want more melee capability, and EE is more useful if you want more blasting capability.

So, the OP would probably be more interested in EE if only one of the two is allowed.

[Specter]

There are two good ways to go about this:

1) Tempest Cleric X, STR-based. Get a full plate and a shield for 20AC. Cast Shield of Faith for 22AC. If dudes still hit you, use your lightning reaction thingy to damage them.

2) Abjurer Wizard X/Fighter 1, DEX-based. 14 Dex, breastplate, Defense, shield and Shield spell give you 24AC, more than enough for melee. And you also get Absorb Elements and the Arcane Ward to make you outlast ten men.

[Tauguy628]

I would go warlock 18/abjurer 2, taking the armor of shadows invocation and the crossbow expert and warcaster feats. You can spam EB and you can walk into any battle with a ward. Stat-wise I would prioritize cha, then con, then int and dex. You he strong at will damage, a lot of verisiaity as you can do ranged as well as melee damage and decent suviablity, especially if you go fiend pact for the temp HP. You could also do this build in almost the opposite way, taking warlock 2/abjurer 18 (this time focusing int>con>dex=cha with stats). I would personally go v. Human for ether of these builds to reduce the feat tax, but anything works.

[BiPolar]

Good points and question BiPolar. I don't totally agree on the MAD part. Generally every character needs either STR or DEX for AC. But yes, being in close combat makes AC (and CON) more important, so you have a valid point.

If I make a STR build for heavy armor (minimum 15 STR), then perhaps we would get some benefit from using a melee weapon. But I'm not imagining a character so melee oriented that he'd needs the 'Extra Attack' that most melee classes get. So with that said, I'm leaning more towards spell over weapon damage. GFB and BB might be good in-between options. The paladin could be an option for melee damage with smite, but without multiple attacks, I'm not sure how effective that will be.

I do think a high AC would be great. Given he'd likely be "softer" than other melee combatants (with less HP and staying power), I think AC would actually be pretty important. If the character's damage mainly comes from spells, that might free him up to have a shield as well. I do find that STR provides a higher AC than DEX builds, but does sacrifice saves.

I'm planning the character for Storm King's Thunder. So probably 1st through 11th level.

I'm imagining a scenario where the group is ambushed and surrounded, and there is little chance for softer ranged characters to hide out. An alternate scenario might be rushing into a room in some dungeon or another where visibility is limited from outside or far away, and there isn't a lot of space to hide out.

One quick question: Rolled stats or point buy?

Based on what your saying here, let me try and put together some new direction for the build. Please let me know if you agree with the following:

1. Good AC to be able to stand up on front line
2. Primarily spellcasting, but option to use weapons
3. Comes online quickly since likely finishing by 11th level. Don't want to wait too long to do what you want.

[imaginary]

One quick question: Rolled stats or point buy?

Based on what your saying here, let me try and put together some new direction for the build. Please let me know if you agree with the following:

1. Good AC to be able to stand up on front line
2. Primarily spellcasting, but option to use weapons
3. Comes online quickly since likely finishing by 11th level. Don't want to wait too long to do what you want.

Point buy.

You got it. Many thanks.

[BiPolar]

Here's my thought: You primarily want to be a spellcaster who can stand up in battle. That immediately leads me to think of the Bladesinger. This allows you to a primary Wizard spellcaster, but when you want you can step into battle and hold your own. At Level 2, you can bladesing, bring your AC up to 18 (or 19 with Mage Armor) and have spells like Shield ready to boost it even higher.

I'd start Wizard 4 and then after your ASI and you've had time to play you can decide how you'd like to proceed. You can continue on as a pure Wizard getting more spells and features, or you can multiclass into Fighter or Rogue for extra action for spellcasting or attack/cunning actions, etc.

High Elf
STR 8
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 10

Studded Leather: AC 15

Spells up to Level 4. Tried to mix some traditional wizarding control with combat.

Cantrips
Greenflame, Shocking Grasp, Poison spray, ray of frost

1st Level Spells
Shield, Magic Missile, Fog Cloud, Feather Fall, Chromatic Orb, Mage Armor

2nd Level Spells
Mirror Image, Aganazzar's Scorcher

3rd Level Spells
Counterspell, Fireball

4th Level Spells
Greater Invisibility, Blight

4th Level - consider ASI for INT

[Digimike]

Arcana Cleric with the SCAG cantrips is a great option. If you really want heavy armor you'd need to burn a feat though.

Valor Bard and Bladelock with your first level being fighter would work well.

Finally Eldritch Knight Fighter may be right up your alley.

When planning your character you need to decide how you plan your party role. Are you support, damage, meatshield, controller, or high AC occupier?

Cleric and bard make great support.
Anyone with access to the spells shield and haste can have quite a high AC.
Bladelocks can control well.
If you want burst damage and ability to soak the Eldritch Knight with its d10 HD, second wind and action surge would make sense.

Planning goes a long way.

[imaginary]

Many thanks all for the replies. There have been a lot of great suggestions, both for classes as well as spells and feats.

Class options that were suggested include the below, though I wasn’t going to list out all the pros and cons:

Bladesinger
Fighter 1/Abjuration Wizard 1+
Fighter 1/Evoker Wizard 1+
Monk/Druid
Fighter 1/Tome Warlock 3+ (Undying Light)
Fighter 1/Blade Warlock 3+ (Fiend)
Life/War Cleric 1/Storm Sorcerer 1+
Paladin 2(or 6)/Sorcerer 1+


One of the questions that was asked by Digimike was, "When planning your character you need to decide how you plan your party role. Are you support, damage, meatshield, controller, or high AC occupier?”

Which I guess is the key question I’ve been pondering. Personally I’ve decided that I’d like to focus on staying power in melee, so either avoiding or mitigating damage. Thus I’m currently thinking about focusing on "high AC occupier”, and secondarily "support" or “damage" roles. Though the cost is a higher STR, heavy armor and shield generally provides a better AC than most dex builds. The ability to cast Shield is another important aspect for a close-combat caster. The new Forge domain in UA offers heavy armor prof, a +1 magical bonus to AC (though it doesn’t scale well), and access to the Shield spell. Plus of course things like the Shield of Faith spell. For a total of 28 AC at first level for a round with spells, 21 without. One major downside however to starting as a Forge Cleric is

With that said, that narrows my options down to the following, assuming heavy armor and shield.


Forge Cleric 1 / Abjuration Wizard 1+
Offers good damage mitigation and temp HP with their ward. No Con save as proficiency. Requires a 13 wis to multi-class.
Forge Cleric 1 / Storm Sorcerer 1+
Provides some extra damage when in close with lightening spells. Con saves as a proficiency. Requires a 13 wis to multi-class.
Forge Cleric (UA) 1+ / ?
Offers multiple bonuses to AC through Blessing and Soul of the Forge, and resistances. No Con save as proficiency.
Would it make sense to multi-class with fighter for +1 to AC for defensive fighting style and Con save proficiency, or any other class?


Thoughts or other ideas on making a heavy armor based close combat caster?

~imaginary

[BiPolar]

The Forge Cleric is very cool, but is your DM allowing Unearthed Arcana? It's still in playtest and isn't official yet.

[imaginary]

The Forge Cleric is very cool, but is your DM allowing Unearthed Arcana? It's still in playtest and isn't official yet.

That part is up in the air. To be safe, I safe figure out a build that doesn't use UA. Humm...

[Sir cryosin]

Arcane cleric is what your looking for vhuman with the feat for heavy armor. Then for one of your wizard cantrip turn cleric shocking grasp. Then with shocking grasp and cleric's inflict wounds. At lv 8 or 6 you get to add your wisdom mod to shocking grasp. Then throw in Spirit Guardians and spiritual weapon. Your good to go. You can also pick up green flame blade or booming blade if you want a weapon attack spell.