Questions about a Bard's Additional Magic Secrets

[MarkVIIIMarc]

AMS reads:
"At 6th level, you learn two spells of your choice from any
class. A spell you choose must be of a level you call cast,
as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip. The chosen
spells Counts as a bard spells for you but don't count
against the number of bard spells you know."

I have a couple questions.

- Can a Bard trade out these spells for others each time the Bard levels up? Bards get to trade out their Bard spells and these do.
-- If so can they be traded for higher level spells eventually?

- Are there any rules or limitations I should know before picking?

Thanks in advance.

[Tanarii]

If you trade them out, it should be for other bard spells, not any spell from any list.

IIRC there a JC tweet or Sage Advice ruling that's says that floating around somewhere. I'll see if I can hunt it down.

Edit: it was a Crawford tweet. Here ya go: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/13/a-spell-learned-via-magical-secrets/

[Discord]

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/13/a-spell-learned-via-magical-secrets/

[BiPolar]

AMS reads:
"At 6th level, you learn two spells of your choice from any
class. A spell you choose must be of a level you call cast,
as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip. The chosen
spells Counts as a bard spells for you but don't count
against the number of bard spells you know."

I have a couple questions.

- Can a Bard trade out these spells for others each time the Bard levels up? Bards get to trade out their Bard spells and these do.
-- If so can they be traded for higher level spells eventually?

- Are there any rules or limitations I should know before picking?

Thanks in advance.

You can not exchange a Magical Secrets spell for another Secret when you level. You can only exchange them for other Bard Spells (which you can do with higher level spells). The Secrets are distinct in this manner. They are one time discovery :)

No other rules. Do your Bard thang and steal them secrets. Er, I mean discover them!

[rooneg]

I'm pretty sure you can swap them out if you want to (the text on swapping out spells when you level up says you can swap out bard spells you know, and these count as bard spells), but I don't think you can just pick off another list (because the text on swapping out spells says you can pick a spell from the bard list).

Contrast this with the Eldritch Knight's spellcasting section, which explicitly says that if you're swapping out one of the non-evocation/abjuration spells you learn at level 8, 14 or 20 you can pick another non-evocation/abjuration spell. (Although now that I think of it, when exactly did they intend for you to have a chance to swap our your level 20 pick?)

[MarkVIIIMarc]

You can not exchange a Magical Secrets spell for another Secret when you level. You can only exchange them for other Bard Spells (which you can do with higher level spells). The Secrets are distinct in this manner. They are one time discovery :)

No other rules. Do your Bard thang and steal them secrets. Er, I mean discover them!

Interesting, and thank you all for the answer.

Eventually trading them out seems like it might be the thing to do. While an oddball level 3 spell will probably be useful for a long time I'm imagining a day when I can trade a level three spell out for a Bard Level 8 or so.

Does it work that way or are they stuck at level three?

[rooneg]

Interesting, and thank you all for the answer.

Eventually trading them out seems like it might be the thing to do. While an oddball level 3 spell will probably be useful for a long time I'm imagining a day when I can trade a level three spell out for a Bard Level 8 or so.

Does it work that way or are they stuck at level three?

Typically when you trade out a spell you can get whatever level replacement you want, but honestly I'd argue against doing it with magical secrets. In general those oddball level 3 spells tend to be things that you can't just replace with another bard spell, even one of very high level, and added flexibility in high level spells is often wasted due to lack of high level slots to use on them.

[Tanarii]

Take into account you only ever get to cast 1 level 8 spell per day. Although if you find yourself casting the same level 3 (or 2) spells in those slots all the time anyway, it'd be worth considering. Depends if you chose spells with lasting usefulness or for short term power really.

[BiPolar]

Interesting, and thank you all for the answer.

Eventually trading them out seems like it might be the thing to do. While an oddball level 3 spell will probably be useful for a long time I'm imagining a day when I can trade a level three spell out for a Bard Level 8 or so.

Does it work that way or are they stuck at level three?

Spells known are not tied to spell levels, so you can swap them out as you wish. However, some third level spells you may be considering are Fireball (which you can cast at a higher level) and Counterspell (also can cast at a higher level.) You may not want to swap those out :)

[Tanarii]

Just to double check, since I have no idea if you're new to 5e or not, you're aware you can upcast the selected third level spells into a higher level slot right?

That doesn't help much if your choices were Augury and Revivify of course. :smallwink:

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Why yes. I am new to 5e. I played a bit of 3.5 but I feel like most of my "knowledge" comes from Baldur's Gate lol.

[Tanarii]

In that case, it matters that many spells can be upcast. For example, Fireball could be cast using your level 8 slot for 15d6 instead of the normal 8d6. (And fireball/lightning bolt are ivery powerful combat spells for its level.) You typically lose something from scaling compared to just casting a higher level spell, but the point is sometimes a (potentially upcast) fireball is better than just another bard spell.

And then sometimes you'd rather just have the out-of-scope low level options available than just another bard spell.