How effective is blasting in 5e?

[Elric VIII]

Coming from a background of 3.5, I tend to view purely damaging spells as largely useless (outside of builds that use arcane thesis and/or incantatrix). The main reason is that the disabling, buff, and debuff spells were so insanely powerful you could either becomes a combat monster as a full caster or disable the enemy so effectively that your horde of commoners can leisurely kick them to death. I have no frame of reference other than spells in general seem like they are much harder to abuse in 5e.

So how do damaging spells stack up when they don't even scale by CL anymore? If I pick up an Eldritch Knight or a melee Cleric, is throwing a lightning bolt or a flame strike worth my time? If I'm playing Wizard that isn't 100% focused on blasting can I get mileage out of a fireball or should I leave the damage to the fighter?

[SharkForce]

it is worth keeping a few blasting spells on hand for most casters. it isn't terribly worth focusing on, in my opinion. damage is better in 5e than it was in 3.x, but the various warrior type classes tend to be much better at dealing damage as a rule.

still, every now and then you'll come across a group of 20 enemies clumped together, and when you do fireball or lightning bolt is a pretty good thing to have in your tool kit.

especially since concentration means that if you're casting hypnotic pattern, you aren't also casting fear, or stinking cloud, or web, or hold person, and sometimes you want to have something more relevant to do with your action after your concentration is used up than just spamming fire bolt.

so, yeah, most of the time for an adventuring wizard i would keep fireball handy. large numbers of comparatively weak enemies are a threat in 5e, so you can definitely get some real value out of it sometimes. just not all the time.

[Navigator]

I came into 5e from a strong 3.5 background and dove right into being a Wizard my first time playing. The biggest culture shock is the spell concentration mechanic, which required me to alter my perception of how to play the class.

Single target you are not going to come out ahead of martial toons unless you only have ~2 combats per long rest. Even if you were competing against yourself, your cantrip damage is going to be surprisingly competitive with real spells until you get stuff like disintegrate. That being said, AoE damage spells are very effective for crowd control, since (1) you're actually doing a lot of damage, and (2) you're probably already concentrating on something more useful so setting things on fire is usually the next best thing.

The realization 90% of the time I'm wondering what to cast next I'm already concentrating on something made spells like fireball look really good.

[Cespenar]

Just an example: We were a level 4 battlemaster, valor bard, and sorcerer against a priest and a young remorhaz.

Battlemaster did some heavy tanking and low-to-moderate damage, and then fell. I (as the bard) silenced the priest, raised the battlemaster, and spent my last 2 rounds using Dodge against the remorhaz since it turned on me.

Sorcerer just chucked Chromatic Orb after Chromatic Orb (from 2nd level slots as well), killed the priest, and then killed the remorhaz while I was tanking. Did upwards of 70 damage on total.

There is no singular lesson to get from this, but it's a nice example in my opinion.

[comk59]

The concentration mechabic made buffs/debuffs much less abusable. It's made Wizards more ultimate utility casters intead of party gods.

[Kane0]

Blasting is definitely worth it in the right situation. Concentration and less spell slots than 3.X means you will often have to make hard decisions regarding what you cast and when, so a couple blast spells are usually worth hanging onto. Casters usually have much better AoE options than martials, so there will likely be times you need to clear rooms instead of applying control and letting the beatsticks do the rest.

The biggest problem is a bit of a lack in blast options in general. Fireball is very worth a spot on your list but if you want to avoid fire damage there isn't much to pick from, and there is a disturbing lack of single target spells beyond the first few spell levels (Disintegrate being notable).

[ad_hoc]

So how do damaging spells stack up when they don't even scale by CL anymore? If I pick up an Eldritch Knight or a melee Cleric, is throwing a lightning bolt or a flame strike worth my time? If I'm playing Wizard that isn't 100% focused on blasting can I get mileage out of a fireball or should I leave the damage to the fighter?

The Eldritch Knight is a bad example because they're getting Fireball at level 13. The main benefits of spells on an EK is that they represent another concentration slot in the party. They can buff themselves. Also good for spells like Shield which don't use an action. Throw in some utility spells to solve out of combat problems and you're set.

Fireball at level 5 on a Wizard? Amazing. Lots of other good level 3 spells too of course. Having that big AoE will make a huge difference in a fight with a lot of mooks with low HP but big damage.

[SharkForce]

even for an eldritch knight, fireball isn't awful in some situations. you do need a much larger group of enemies for it to become worthwhile though...

[JakOfAllTirades]

Sorcerers have a few Metamagic tools for increasing the effectiveness of blasting tactics. A Twinned spell will get you double the bang for your buck, as will a Quickened spell cast right after a standard-action spell. If you want to get the most out of your blasting spells, that's something to consider.

Then there's the Invoker Wizard's "overchannel" ability for Maximum damage. Very scary, but it's only for spells up to 5th level, and doesn't come online until 14th level.

[Ninja_Prawn]

purely damaging spells

*scans thread* Are we not counting Eldritch Blast as a damage spell, then? A warlock with Agonising Blast is perfectly serviceable as the party's main DPR.

Edit: unless there's doubt as to whether the DPR role itself is 'effective'. I would argue that it is, based on my experience. Dealing HP damage is the main way that fights get ended, after all.

[Sigreid]

It's been my experience that with the exception of EB, which is comparable to a fighter/archer, it isn't a good use of a spell slot to use anything over a cantrip unless there are multiple foes you can impact. Exceptions made for desperate situations, but over all there's too high a chance you will roll low and with no attribute modifiers to the dice in most cases it's a waste of a spell slot.

[Giant2005]

It's been my experience that with the exception of EB, which is comparable to a fighter/archer, it isn't a good use of a spell slot to use anything over a cantrip unless there are multiple foes you can impact. Exceptions made for desperate situations, but over all there's too high a chance you will roll low and with no attribute modifiers to the dice in most cases it's a waste of a spell slot.

It is worth it if you use a spell that lasts multiple rounds. Things like Moonbeam, Flaming Sphere, and Bigby's are pretty efficient and worth using higher level slots on (especially Bigby's - its damage scales with spell slots phenomenally well).
But yeah... Warlock 2/Sorc X still works best as a Blaster. That build is likely to be top of the damage charts from as early as level 5.

[Specter]

As said, there are no longer 5 rounds of buffing and 10 rounds of debuffing in every combat due to concentration. So after you've cast whatever spell is more important to the combat (hypnotic pattern, wall of force, etc.), blast away.

[Sigreid]

It is worth it if you use a spell that lasts multiple rounds. Things like Moonbeam, Flaming Sphere, and Bigby's are pretty efficient and worth using higher level slots on (especially Bigby's - its damage scales with spell slots phenomenally well).
But yeah... Warlock 2/Sorc X still works best as a Blaster. That build is likely to be top of the damage charts from as early as level 5.

Personal bias but I don't view the spells you mentioned as blasty, seeing them as damaging controls spells. To me blasty says I'm going for the big bang right now.

[Millstone85]

*scans thread* Are we not counting Eldritch Blast as a damage spell, then? A warlock with Agonising Blast is perfectly serviceable as the party's main DPR.I may be wrong but I think the question here is "When is it worth expending a spell slot on pure damage?".
Since EB is a cantrip, it is too cool for this discussion. Plus, you can add a bit of control with Repelling Blast.

[Socratov]

In my opinion the effectiveness of blasting hasn't changed all that much since 3.5

You see, if you want to spend a spellslot there is still the economic argument: will yo spend your slot on direct damage, defence, battlefield control, blanket countermeasures or targeted countermeasures.

if we assume that between the classes the damage won't be all that different (except for the bard who does not have a real damage loving chassis). some can nova more or less.

With the damage dealing role being available to just about anyone and the ability to cripple the opposition to be more rare I'd say that a spellslot spent at disabeling the enemy over directly damaging the enemy is better spent. Even if you keep a foe unable to act or defend (by incapacitation) for only 1 round, that is (in a party of 4) 3 sets of actions that are boosted (in the case of incapacitated that is 3 rounds of attacks, magical or not, that autocrit when hit, which is done with advantage).

This is completely reversed when it comes to cantrips: if a situation does not warrant a spellslot, or you have spent them all, then dealing damage is a great thing to do with a cantrip (especially considering the lack of control cantrips), once you pass lvl 5 they start approaching the levelled spells in damage and at lvl 11 they are above lvl 1 spells in damage. for free. Often accompanied by riders (like vicious Mockery, Ray of Frost and chill touch).

A special case can be made for spells that immediately kill an enemy. Death is after all the best disable, right? Well, guess again. if you want to conserve spellslots and have an eye on the turn order it's not hard to see wether you need a 1st lvl spell for dmg or a 5th lvl spell for dmg. By assessing how strong an enemy is and how many of your buddies get their turn after to attack the enemy it's easy to consider how much you need. This edition prides itself on giving its spellcasters only a few slots to work with. Better keep them for that inevitable nightly ambush then to spill them all leaving you without spells.

Lastly: the biggest argument to use spellslots for blasting is fun. Is it fun to efficiently help your allies slaughter an encounter? Sure, I guess. Is it fun to cast meteor Swarm and nickname yourself 'Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds'? You betcha! Is it fun to fireball everyhting (https://i.redd.it/uo9ym14kco0y.jpg) in sight and to proclaim yourself in an awesome manner? Well, let's say I do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY0JmLpQfCQ).

[Elric VIII]

So, it seems they are not a total waste. This is good to know. I've always liked the idea of my spellsword actually casting spells rather than casting better version of fighter class features.

Thanks for the info everyone.

[Willie the Duck]

So, it seems they are not a total waste. This is good to know. I've always liked the idea of my spellsword actually casting spells rather than casting better version of fighter class features.

Could you elaborate?

[Gastronomie]

Fireball, Vitriolic Sphere, and Cone of Cold are examples of good Blasting spells that stay relevant for some length in your career. However, spells like Scorching Ray and Thunderwave are overall meh, especially at higher levels.

[Grod_The_Giant]

How useful they are really depends on how often you face large groups of weak enemies. Otherwise it's almost certainly not worth the spell.

[jaappleton]

I've played a controller Bard, and I've played a Theurge (Tempest) Wizard. Let me say, it does NOT get more blasty than the Theurge maxxing Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning.

How effective was either... Really, both have the same job. They just have separate ways of going about it. The job is to make enemies unable to contribute to the battle. One does it by shutting down their capabilities, while the other does it by reducing enemy HP to zero as fast as possible.

In 5E, I think being a controller is more difficult than being a blaster. It's because of the Concentration rules. If I use Hold Person, that enemies is locked down, but my next spell choice becomes very limited if I want to keep Hold Person going. Chucking a damage spell is just "Make your save? No? Full damage." The results of the blaster can often take longer to achieve the results. Sometimes the blaster can achieve the end result of 'taking enemies out of the game' faster, depending on a few things (class build, etc).

I'm an absolute firm believer that the Theurge (Tempest specifically) is absolutely OP. I've played it. I decimated things. My usual tactic was to blast everything, using maxxed damage via Channel Divinity, and leave one slot open to immediately cast Leomund's Tiny Hut after the battle. This allowed the party to heal, and allowed me to use Arcane Recovery to replenish both my spell slots AND recover my channel divinity, so I could do it all over again. As a Theurge, your blasting capabilities are through the roof, it eclipses the Sorcerer and other options.

I do find that as a DM, it's easier to counter a blaster. "Oh, he'll kill four enemies with one spell, so I'll send a second wave of foes, that'll be the REAL encounter after he blows Channel Divinity". Controllers can be more subtle about manipulating a battle to be effective, I think.

A standard (Not super powered Theurge) blaster and a controller can both burn through their resources under certain circumstances. Cast Hold Monster, but lose concentration after one round? Well, there goes that spell slot. Fireball at 5th level, but rolled poorly? You were better off casting something else than only rolling 26 damage, but enemies saved for half, so you only dealt 13 with a 5th level spell.

[Gastronomie]

How useful they are really depends on how often you face large groups of weak enemies. Otherwise it's almost certainly not worth the spell.Well, this is true. Fireball, for instance, can inflict 28 damage, but this is not much of an amount against a CR 5 monster, with average HPs of around 90. On the other hand, against a horde of a dozen goblins, this can end the entire encounter on its own.

[Finieous]

After a couple years of experience with 5e, my opinion is that versatility is rewarded. You can't really specialize in buffing/debuffing/control as you could in the past, because concentration is a big limiter, bounded accuracy on saving throws prevents very high spell success rates, and repeating saves in combination with that bounded accuracy means that control often won't stick very long. This means that in important battles, you can typically have one buff, debuff or control spell active, assuming you're not using your concentration for damage, and then you need instantaneous cantrips or spells to use your actions (and reactions, where appropriate).

3.x had a lot of battles ended by "can't-save-and-permanently-suck" spells. In 5e, everything can always save and there's precious little permanent suckage to be had. As a result, almost every battle is ended by reducing enemy hit points sufficiently that the enemy flees/surrenders/dies. Blasting spells that efficiently reduce enemy hit points therefore play an important role, but you have to be careful in spell selection and usage: A lot of blasting spells won't efficiently reduce enemy hit points, either because the spell sucks or the tactical situation doesn't play to the spell's strengths.

(Also, no-save spells are gold for control. Walls, for sure, and also illusions [e.g. Major Image] if you're creative and have a decent DM.)

[Elric VIII]

Could you elaborate?

Well, for example, my last 3.5 cleric was using his 6+ spell slots persisting buffs on myself to beat face. While effective, this is a lot less flashy than throwing out a quickened flame strike before charging into the fiery carnage.

Since this is not a possibility in 5e due to the concentration mechanic, I will have potentially more spell slots to spare on ending encounters via blasting.

[Giant2005]

This thread makes me wonder... What is more efficient if you want to deal damage as well as debuff?
Would you:
1. Use your concentration on a debuff spell like Hold Person, then spam instant cast damage spells like Fireball or Scorching Ray, or
2. Use your concentration on a continuous damage spell like Bigby's, Moonbeam, or Flaming Sphere, and then spam instant cast debuff spells like Blindness?

[jaappleton]

This thread makes me wonder... What is more efficient if you want to deal damage as well as debuff?
Would you:
1. Use your concentration on a debuff spell like Hold Person, then spam instant cast damage spells like Fireball or Scorching Ray, or
2. Use your concentration on a continuous damage spell like Bigby's, Moonbeam, or Flaming Sphere, and then spam instant cast debuff spells like Blindness?

A good question but IMO it's 100% dependent on the party. Have a Rogue and Paladin? Hold Person and let them auto crit with Sneak Attack and Smite.

[Giant2005]

A good question but IMO it's 100% dependent on the party. Have a Rogue and Paladin? Hold Person and let them auto crit with Sneak Attack and Smite.

I was thinking that it might be better going the Blindness route. Control/Debuff spells don't tend to last too long (due to saves being made every round), so you want to be able to reapply them freely without screwing anything else up.

[Willie the Duck]

Well, for example, my last 3.5 cleric was using his 6+ spell slots persisting buffs on myself to beat face. While effective, this is a lot less flashy than throwing out a quickened flame strike before charging into the fiery carnage.

Since this is not a possibility in 5e due to the concentration mechanic, I will have potentially more spell slots to spare on ending encounters via blasting.

Got it. The cleric definitely has changed, and there is no such build as CodZilla. That said, casting bless and holding the concentration is one of the best low-level strategies they have (and Spirit Guardians and holding it a mid-level one, although that's sorta a blasting effect).

[Socratov]

After a couple years of experience with 5e, my opinion is that versatility is rewarded. You can't really specialize in buffing/debuffing/control as you could in the past, because concentration is a big limiter, bounded accuracy on saving throws prevents very high spell success rates, and repeating saves in combination with that bounded accuracy means that control often won't stick very long. This means that in important battles, you can typically have one buff, debuff or control spell active, assuming you're not using your concentration for damage, and then you need instantaneous cantrips or spells to use your actions (and reactions, where appropriate).

3.x had a lot of battles ended by "can't-save-and-permanently-suck" spells. In 5e, everything can always save and there's precious little permanent suckage to be had. As a result, almost every battle is ended by reducing enemy hit points sufficiently that the enemy flees/surrenders/dies. Blasting spells that efficiently reduce enemy hit points therefore play an important role, but you have to be careful in spell selection and usage: A lot of blasting spells won't efficiently reduce enemy hit points, either because the spell sucks or the tactical situation doesn't play to the spell's strengths.

(Also, no-save spells are gold for control. Walls, for sure, and also illusions [e.g. Major Image] if you're creative and have a decent DM.)
Which is exactly what made Heat Metal so fun. it offers a save, but only to hol don to things and not to drop the item in question. So if you fight someone in metal armour (taken off in at least a minute) you can do all those rounds of damage, as long as you maintain concentration.

This thread makes me wonder... What is more efficient if you want to deal damage as well as debuff?
Would you:
1. Use your concentration on a debuff spell like Hold Person, then spam instant cast damage spells like Fireball or Scorching Ray, or
2. Use your concentration on a continuous damage spell like Bigby's, Moonbeam, or Flaming Sphere, and then spam instant cast debuff spells like Blindness?

That depends.

If you can twin buff like a twin sorc with Haste, that is the spell you will concentrate on as it will turn 2 martial characters into blenders. They then hold the line and blend anything that has the audacity to approach you.

If you can't use the above tactic, try to create a chokepoint or other form of terrain manipulation to make sure the enemies can't move as freely as they would (path of thorns and moonbeam come to mind specifically)

Against a horde of enemies that die easily, fireball is the only move (that is, until you meet a lefion of them on an army field, then meteor swarm is the correct move. No kill like overkill).

If you need to use singe target disables, look for status effects you can inflict. Go for something that completely disables their method of attack: for casters blindness will help a lot as you can't cast at what you can't see. For stuff that needs to go down absolutely NOW, hold person/monster coupled with everyone spending nova abilities (smites, action surge, divine strikes, you name it) on it to absolutely make sure it dies right this instant.

Another fun thing is to Tasha an enemy to keep it out of the fight to create a sense of queueing

[BW022]

I've played in several 5e campaigns. For blasting, they are fairly similar to 3.5e with some exceptions.

1. Combats almost always end the same way... you take the creatures to 0hp and win. Few combats seem to end via disabling, surrendering, save or nerf/die spells, etc. In most cases, this means hacking or blasting opponents down to 0hp. Also, like 3.5e, encounters typically stay within a reasonable number range and will scale the toughness of individual creatures rather than adding more of them. A 5th-level combat is more likely to be 2 hill giants or 8 bugbears, rather than 40 goblins.

2. Cantrips are now at will and scale with character level. Thus, most spellcasters have an "at will" primary damaging spell nearly as good as primary weapon damage of a martial type.

3. Concentration makes a huge difference in terms of defensive or buffing spells. This typically means that defense does not scale at higher levels as well as creatures ability to hit you, nor can you ultra buff to the point you can take down foes using standard attacks extremely quickly. It also means that once you have cast a buff, debuff, or crowd control spell... you often can't cast another and you might as well start casting blasting spells.

4. 5e damaging spells do more damage at low-levels. Magic missile starts at 3d4+3 at first level. However, spells scale by slot. So at 10th-level, it does the same damage unless you use a higher-level spell slot. This is big. In 3.5e you could spam 1st-level damaging spells with reasonable effect at high-level. In 5e, it isn't generally worth casting. At 1st-level a magic missile can pretty much kill any single foe, at 5th it is as good as maybe your martial PCs good attack sequence, at 10th, you'd likely never bother casting it -- baring knowing a creature was dead, to interrupt spellcasting, you are low on spells, or you really want to use a higher level spell slot.

5. Most 5e combats tend to rely on crowd control or debuffs as levels increase. If you are 5th-level and fighting two hill giants, your fighter might not last more than two rounds if you don't help. Typically you want them slowed, feared, entangled, etc. such that the group only needs to face one at a time, can soften them up with ranged, etc. This said... once done, you typically want to be able to blast away.

6. Resistances and defensive abilities matter a fair amount. An opponent with fire resistance or evasion is likely 'immune' to a fireball to the point you likely wouldn't use it if you knew this. Thus, it is still worth keeping some blasting spells of different damaging types.


At low-levels (1-3), blasting spells are fine. A single magic missile, burning hands, thunderwave, etc. is good enough to kill or seriously wound most opponents -- especially if they are a group vs. a single more powerful opponent.

At mid-levels (5-10), I typically see the higher level spell slots used for large buff, debuff, or crowd control. You then keep blasting spells in your lower-level slots. Once your front-liners are safe, then you use blasting to help bring them down. It is often a good idea to select damaging spells which scale by spell slot, so that you always have the option of using them (instead of your high-level prepared spells)

At higher-levels (11+), I typically see things similar to 5-10, but often the very low level spell slots are moved to non-damaging spells also.

[JakOfAllTirades]

It's been my experience that with the exception of EB, which is comparable to a fighter/archer, it isn't a good use of a spell slot to use anything over a cantrip unless there are multiple foes you can impact. Exceptions made for desperate situations, but over all there's too high a chance you will roll low and with no attribute modifiers to the dice in most cases it's a waste of a spell slot.

Agree 100% that attribute mods or some other boost is needed.

Evokers (I typed "Invokers" above, my bad) and Draconic sorcerers both have class features for adding their casting ability to their damage spells, which is important for the blasting role. The Empower spell Metamagic ability can also help avoid low damage rolls.

Another thing which hasn't been mentioned thus far is the Elemental Adept feat. It's practically mandatory for a blaster to overcome foes' resistance to damage, which makes this basically a "feat tax" for a caster in the blaster role. If you're going with Eldritch Blast it's less of a problem since Force damage is seldom resisted.

[CaptainSarathai]

I think the deciding factor in a caster build, is the play between your Slotted Spells and Concentration Spell, and your Cantrips.

The best casters I've seen in 5e, all play the same way. They have:
At least 1 good Damage Cantrip, scaling by caster level.
A 'signature' Concentration Spell, with an interest in making it as effective as possible.
A selection of slotted spells that can be cast through the Concentration spells OR used as utility options.

You want a Blasty cantrip. If you're out of slots, you don't want to be looking at the party and offering to "Prestidigitation" the Ogre to death. The fact that Cantrips are pretty solid Blasting options anyway, and the Concentration Spell is probably a Buff feature, your slotted spells are kinda left in limbo. Normally they do the opposite of what the Concentration Spell does. So if you're conning on dealing damage each round, your slotted stuff will be buff spells. If you con on buffing, slotted will be damage spells.

The trouble with slotted damage is that your cantrip is probably on par for single-target effects, and remains so throughout your career. The only time you're going to throw a levelled spell is for area-effect damage, it seems. Otherwise, you're wasting a slot to do slightly more than what a cantrip might do.

Incidentally, this is why I see so many Casters take a dip into Warlock where possible, or otherwise try to get their hands on Eldritch Blast.

[jaappleton]

I think the deciding factor in a caster build, is the play between your Slotted Spells and Concentration Spell, and your Cantrips.

The best casters I've seen in 5e, all play the same way. They have:
At least 1 good Damage Cantrip, scaling by caster level.
A 'signature' Concentration Spell, with an interest in making it as effective as possible.
A selection of slotted spells that can be cast through the Concentration spells OR used as utility options.

You want a Blasty cantrip. If you're out of slots, you don't want to be looking at the party and offering to "Prestidigitation" the Ogre to death. The fact that Cantrips are pretty solid Blasting options anyway, and the Concentration Spell is probably a Buff feature, your slotted spells are kinda left in limbo. Normally they do the opposite of what the Concentration Spell does. So if you're conning on dealing damage each round, your slotted stuff will be buff spells. If you con on buffing, slotted will be damage spells.

The trouble with slotted damage is that your cantrip is probably on par for single-target effects, and remains so throughout your career. The only time you're going to throw a levelled spell is for area-effect damage, it seems. Otherwise, you're wasting a slot to do slightly more than what a cantrip might do.

Incidentally, this is why I see so many Casters take a dip into Warlock where possible, or otherwise try to get their hands on Eldritch Blast.

I agree with the overall premise here with what you're saying.

But let's say, hypothetically, you're at a table that's against multiclassing.

How effective is this play style with a Warlock as opposed to a Sorcerer? And are Sorcery points better spent on converting spell slots, or Metamagic?

[Tanarii]

So how do damaging spells stack up when they don't even scale by CL anymore? If I pick up an Eldritch Knight or a melee Cleric, is throwing a lightning bolt or a flame strike worth my time? If I'm playing Wizard that isn't 100% focused on blasting can I get mileage out of a fireball or should I leave the damage to the fighter?The not-really-an-answer to the first question is: For some Clerics and EKs, they get perfectly respectable damage out of using their weapon or cantrips, or in the case of the EK both. Yet in both cases, unless you're in a feat game and optimized using some of the top tier feats, or you've found some nice magical weapons, busting out a direct damage spell when appropriate definitely leads to an increase in damage. Enough enemies are clumped together that an AoE is going to be an improvement in damage. (It's also possible that you don't have ANY effective ranged option without using magic, although in the case of an EK that means you passed up on ranged attack cantrips.)

Of course, that assumes your primary goal is doing damage. I understand that's your real question, which is why it's not really an answer. :smallwink:

[SharkForce]

I think the deciding factor in a caster build, is the play between your Slotted Spells and Concentration Spell, and your Cantrips.

The best casters I've seen in 5e, all play the same way. They have:
At least 1 good Damage Cantrip, scaling by caster level.
A 'signature' Concentration Spell, with an interest in making it as effective as possible.
A selection of slotted spells that can be cast through the Concentration spells OR used as utility options.

You want a Blasty cantrip. If you're out of slots, you don't want to be looking at the party and offering to "Prestidigitation" the Ogre to death. The fact that Cantrips are pretty solid Blasting options anyway, and the Concentration Spell is probably a Buff feature, your slotted spells are kinda left in limbo. Normally they do the opposite of what the Concentration Spell does. So if you're conning on dealing damage each round, your slotted stuff will be buff spells. If you con on buffing, slotted will be damage spells.

The trouble with slotted damage is that your cantrip is probably on par for single-target effects, and remains so throughout your career. The only time you're going to throw a levelled spell is for area-effect damage, it seems. Otherwise, you're wasting a slot to do slightly more than what a cantrip might do.

Incidentally, this is why I see so many Casters take a dip into Warlock where possible, or otherwise try to get their hands on Eldritch Blast.

gotta disagree with a lot of this.

- cantrips are not "pretty solid blasting options". they typically do half damage or less compared to what a good melee warrior does. cantrips are not good blasting options, they're the thing you do when you feel confident that the amount of resources it would cost for you to really influence the fight is not worth the amount of influence over the fight's outcome you would gain. you cast a cantrip because you already used wall of force to split the 10 giant fight into 2 5 giant fights.

- buff spells are mostly terrible in 5e. there are some exceptions (bless, polymorph for as long as there are sufficiently powerful creatures to turn into), but mostly you're better off using a control spell instead.

- you absolutely should not have a "signature" concentration spell. even the most limited spellcasters need to be making use of a variety of options to get the best effect, or in some cases any effect at all. it's fine to like using web or hypnotic pattern, but expect there to be situations where any given spell will be less effective or even completely ineffective. you use the right spell for the job, and unless you are basically having the same fight over and over, it probably won't be the same spell.

- your cantrip is not your *best* blasting option for most of your career. it is merely your cheapest one, which in some situations is best, but only when cheap is more important than powerful. at level 5, your cantrip probably is 2d10 damage at best, with a chance of missing, probably limited to one damage type. put a magic missile in a level 3 slot, and you're doing 5d4 + 5 guaranteed to hit force damage. use the same slot on chromatic orb for even more damage and you get to choose the type of damage as well. use it on scorching ray for 8d6 single target damage. you could even use fireball or lightning bolt on a single target for 8d6 damage as well, if the situation allows.

- a warlock dip is not a great option unless you plan on primarily doing single target sustainable damage with your spellcaster. which begs the question, why aren't you a warrior, because they do single target sustainable damage better than a warlock, but whatever, that's your decision. any dip on a caster delays your ability to learn higher level spells, and that's a big deal. at level 5, you'll have a better cantrip, but you won't have fireball, for example. worse, unlike every other caster multiclass, warlock doesn't improve your spell slots... you don't even get to upcast shatter, you're just using a regular shatter instead. now, that doesn't mean warlock dips for other classes are never a good idea... but simply put, you're losing out on game-changing abilities to get a better "this isn't worth the spell slot" ability. think carefully before you make that trade, and make sure that's what you really want, because it probably isn't worth it in terms of raw character power.

[MrStabby]

One thing touched on but not really explicitly stated is bounded accuracy.

In an encounter with some nasty things and some lower level stuff the lower level stuff can make a difference in 5th edition whereas in 3rd edition it really didn't. If you have 3 mummies and 5 skeletons in an encounter then sure, the mummies are the scary part but in 5th the skeletons can put out some damage and take the help action and be much more effective than in 3rd.

Control spells temporally take creatures out of the fight. For low levels creatures, spells like fireball do the same thing but permanently without using concentration. In 3rd this was pretty irrelevant as the lower level stuff wasn't going to be much of a threat anyway but in 5th, taking down some of the chaff is actually a bit more productive and useful.

In general, the things you can pick off with a blasty spell are actually more of a threat, so it becomes a bit more useful in 5th. Not always a good thing to do, but less bad than it was before.

[Vogonjeltz]

Coming from a background of 3.5, I tend to view purely damaging spells as largely useless (outside of builds that use arcane thesis and/or incantatrix). The main reason is that the disabling, buff, and debuff spells were so insanely powerful you could either becomes a combat monster as a full caster or disable the enemy so effectively that your horde of commoners can leisurely kick them to death. I have no frame of reference other than spells in general seem like they are much harder to abuse in 5e.

So how do damaging spells stack up when they don't even scale by CL anymore? If I pick up an Eldritch Knight or a melee Cleric, is throwing a lightning bolt or a flame strike worth my time? If I'm playing Wizard that isn't 100% focused on blasting can I get mileage out of a fireball or should I leave the damage to the fighter?

The beauty of 5e encounters is that, thanks to bounded accuracy, large numbers of low CR enemies are actually still quite dangerous. This is where your large area of effect blasting spells come in quite handy, being able to kill/seriously damage large numbers of opposition in a single action.

So a Fireball, even at level 3, retains efficacy against a horde of Orcs or Hobgoblins that, with numbers, might scale up to a deadly encounter.

Against single targets the melee combat characters (Fighter et al) are going to be more effective with purely damaging attacks over time as those enemies typically have substantially more hit points, so it can be more useful to cripple them on the party's behalf with a status effect.

So...it really depends on the context as to whether it is "better" to try and deal damage or to try and impose a status effect.


How effective is this play style with a Warlock as opposed to a Sorcerer? And are Sorcery points better spent on converting spell slots, or Metamagic?

If the goal is efficiency, Extended Spell metamagic is the best value per sorcery point. 1 point effectively double-casts a duration spell.

[Squiddish]

It depends. If you're fighting something that you have a hard time landing a hit on (rare with bounded accuracy, but it still happens), then you might want to go with the always-useful magic missile, while if you're facing many weak enemies, fireball (or similar) is the way to go. Otherwise, yeah, buff spells.

As for cantrips, always have a blasting cantrip. While they lag a bit behind many melee builds in DPR, they're pretty good for ranged weapons (Firebolt and Eldritch Blast are on par with a heavy crossbow, but behind shortbow or longbow if the user has extra attacks).

[Toofey]

I'm a sad old man and I've spent a lot of time playing mages, heed my words.

Damage is seldom the most important thing a mage can do, mages should be looking for single actions which change the situation so drastically so as to create an overwhelming advantage, or to outright end fights.

That said, damage is a big part of how fights end and can be very important, and mages are good at dealing significant damage, but only a limited number of times. So I would say have a good damage spell or two, but for the most part hold them in reserve until you can either finish off larger threats, or put a number of smaller threats to bed.

The enemy being there shouldn't be enough of a reason to spend spell levels, those spell levels making a difference are the important thing.

Now as far as recreational blasting, the cantrips over the course of a fight can actually be a significant contribution to he party's damage, even aside from the enhanced eldritch blast, I'd recommend using these 'free' damage options any time you don't have something better to do with your actions to contribute to the overall party DPR.

[CaptainSarathai]

gotta disagree with a lot of this.

- cantrips are not "pretty solid blasting options". they typically do half damage or less compared to what a good melee warrior does. cantrips are not good blasting options, they're the thing you do when you feel confident that the amount of resources it would cost for you to really influence the fight is not worth the amount of influence over the fight's outcome you would gain. you cast a cantrip because you already used wall of force to split the 10 giant fight into 2 5 giant fights.
Right. I'm not saying that a caster should necessarily be blasting away at someone - I suppose that to answer the OP's question in the fastest and most direct way: no, the average caster is not getting great returns from blasting people.
But I still stand by a cantrip being a solid option if you want to hit a single target; yes, it doesn't scale so well as a slotted spell, but like you said; you just burned a slot to cast Wall, do you have a slot to burn on boosting damage above your cantrip?


- buff spells are mostly terrible in 5e. there are some exceptions (bless, polymorph for as long as there are sufficiently powerful creatures to turn into), but mostly you're better off using a control spell instead.
I'd add Haste on your melee buddies in there as well, but yes, I'll make that concession. Control, buff, debuff, the real point is that these aren't kicking damage, and quite a few of them eat up your concentration.


- you absolutely should not have a "signature" concentration spell. even the most limited spellcasters need to be making use of a variety of options to get the best effect, or in some cases any effect at all. it's fine to like using web or hypnotic pattern, but expect there to be situations where any given spell will be less effective or even completely ineffective. you use the right spell for the job, and unless you are basically having the same fight over and over, it probably won't be the same spell.
You're either prepping spells, or you're choosing which ones to learn. Having several Concentration spells might give you a lot of flexibility from combat to combat, but once you're in that fight, you are probably going to pick one and go with it. Once you have your concentration up, any other concentrate spell is off the table. You could switch it up, but if you're concentrating on keeping something active for 4 rounds, what are you casting for those 4 rounds?



- your cantrip is not your *best* blasting option for most of your career. it is merely your cheapest one, which in some situations is best, but only when cheap is more important than powerful. at level 5, your cantrip probably is 2d10 damage at best, with a chance of missing, probably limited to one damage type. put a magic missile in a level 3 slot, and you're doing 5d4 + 5 guaranteed to hit force damage. use the same slot on chromatic orb for even more damage and you get to choose the type of damage as well. use it on scorching ray for 8d6 single target damage. you could even use fireball or lightning bolt on a single target for 8d6 damage as well, if the situation allows.
But how many slots do you have, and what are you using them on? Nah, a Cantrip might not do the most damage, but it doesn't eat a slot that's better saved for doing something that the Fighters and Rogues of the party can do just as well.
Leveled Blaster spells are more like a Nova, like a Smite. They spike your damage way up, but you can't do it all day long. Leveled Blaster spells also don't scale all that well for the slot investment, so you're stuck playing "keep up" all career, taking damage spells at every level to keep up, or scaling badly and falling behind.
Cantrips scale automatically. It makes perfect sense that burning your highest level slot should do more damage, you used a resource. That's like comparing a melee attack with a Paladin's Smite.


- a warlock dip is not a great option unless you plan on primarily doing single target sustainable damage with your spellcaster. which begs the question, why aren't you a warrior, because they do single target sustainable damage better than a warlock, but whatever, that's your decision. any dip on a caster delays your ability to learn higher level spells, and that's a big deal. at level 5, you'll have a better cantrip, but you won't have fireball, for example. worse, unlike every other caster multiclass, warlock doesn't improve your spell slots... you don't even get to upcast shatter, you're just using a regular shatter instead. now, that doesn't mean warlock dips for other classes are never a good idea... but simply put, you're losing out on game-changing abilities to get a better "this isn't worth the spell slot" ability. think carefully before you make that trade, and make sure that's what you really want, because it probably isn't worth it in terms of raw character power.
2 levels of Warlock is all it takes to get what you need. D10+Cha and why not take Hex? Also gives you slotless Mage Armor, and renewing spell slots for SorcPoints or throwing around utility spells.
It slows your caster progression (but you still get 9lvl slot) and ASIs, and costs you your 20th level capstone. But be realistic, how long does your campaign run at 20th, if it gets there at all? I would rather have a character who pulls strong at the lower and mid levels, and then tapers off at the late game - because I might never even see that taper.
2 levels of Warlock is so front-loaded that until your 1st level slots become worthless, you're actually looking rosy compared to straight-classed full-casters (MCing does wreck Half/Third casters). If you're a Sorcerer who can drop slots for points, you're doing well all career long, because every short rest you get to pull in points.

Why not play a Warrior? Well first of all, a Warrior isn't also getting the flexibility that spells provide. I can't Control with a Warrior. Asking why you don't play a Warrior to deal damage, is like asking the party Tank why he doesn't go for a Wizard to control enemy positioning. Addiyionally, casters are usually better at Range (except AS+SS Fighter) and better against groups. Don't forget that Eldritch Blast can be spread across targets just like an Archer can split their shots.

In all, I think that Blasting is viable in this edition, but it's not really optimal for a caster to pour their heart and soul into it. Casters remain force-multipliers through and through. Throw Haste/Bless and make the Fighter better. Throw Wall and lock off half the battlefield. That's your primary role. After that, you get the utility stuff or blasting.

I'd say that if you really want to blast, then Tempest Theurge and SorLock is your best bet. And even then, you're sacrificing the raw damage of someone like a Barbarian, for the ability to chuck utility spells and maybe drop some big, bursty, Nova rounds.

[Socratov]

Right. I'm not saying that a caster should necessarily be blasting away at someone - I suppose that to answer the OP's question in the fastest and most direct way: no, the average caster is not getting great returns from blasting people.
But I still stand by a cantrip being a solid option if you want to hit a single target; yes, it doesn't scale so well as a slotted spell, but like you said; you just burned a slot to cast Wall, do you have a slot to burn on boosting damage above your cantrip?


I'd add Haste on your melee buddies in there as well, but yes, I'll make that concession. Control, buff, debuff, the real point is that these aren't kicking damage, and quite a few of them eat up your concentration.


You're either prepping spells, or you're choosing which ones to learn. Having several Concentration spells might give you a lot of flexibility from combat to combat, but once you're in that fight, you are probably going to pick one and go with it. Once you have your concentration up, any other concentrate spell is off the table. You could switch it up, but if you're concentrating on keeping something active for 4 rounds, what are you casting for those 4 rounds?



But how many slots do you have, and what are you using them on? Nah, a Cantrip might not do the most damage, but it doesn't eat a slot that's better saved for doing something that the Fighters and Rogues of the party can do just as well.
Leveled Blaster spells are more like a Nova, like a Smite. They spike your damage way up, but you can't do it all day long. Leveled Blaster spells also don't scale all that well for the slot investment, so you're stuck playing "keep up" all career, taking damage spells at every level to keep up, or scaling badly and falling behind.
Cantrips scale automatically. It makes perfect sense that burning your highest level slot should do more damage, you used a resource. That's like comparing a melee attack with a Paladin's Smite.


2 levels of Warlock is all it takes to get what you need. D10+Cha and why not take Hex? Also gives you slotless Mage Armor, and renewing spell slots for SorcPoints or throwing around utility spells.
It slows your caster progression (but you still get 9lvl slot) and ASIs, and costs you your 20th level capstone. But be realistic, how long does your campaign run at 20th, if it gets there at all? I would rather have a character who pulls strong at the lower and mid levels, and then tapers off at the late game - because I might never even see that taper.
2 levels of Warlock is so front-loaded that until your 1st level slots become worthless, you're actually looking rosy compared to straight-classed full-casters (MCing does wreck Half/Third casters). If you're a Sorcerer who can drop slots for points, you're doing well all career long, because every short rest you get to pull in points.

Why not play a Warrior? Well first of all, a Warrior isn't also getting the flexibility that spells provide. I can't Control with a Warrior. Asking why you don't play a Warrior to deal damage, is like asking the party Tank why he doesn't go for a Wizard to control enemy positioning. Addiyionally, casters are usually better at Range (except AS+SS Fighter) and better against groups. Don't forget that Eldritch Blast can be spread across targets just like an Archer can split their shots.

In all, I think that Blasting is viable in this edition, but it's not really optimal for a caster to pour their heart and soul into it. Casters remain force-multipliers through and through. Throw Haste/Bless and make the Fighter better. Throw Wall and lock off half the battlefield. That's your primary role. After that, you get the utility stuff or blasting.

I'd say that if you really want to blast, then Tempest Theurge and SorLock is your best bet. And even then, you're sacrificing the raw damage of someone like a Barbarian, for the ability to chuck utility spells and maybe drop some big, bursty, Nova rounds.

the only reason blasting can be efficient is if you take 1 turn to kill the enemy completely to prevent other resources being spent or to prevent compatriot death. The latter is expensive in diamonds and the former is simple equity: if you can save 3 spellslots being cast by way of using 1 to nuke, then that is the best solution. In all other instances using a spellslot to optimise the actions of the rest is better. and if that is no option, then cantrip blasting is the best option.

[SharkForce]

Right. I'm not saying that a caster should necessarily be blasting away at someone - I suppose that to answer the OP's question in the fastest and most direct way: no, the average caster is not getting great returns from blasting people.
But I still stand by a cantrip being a solid option if you want to hit a single target; yes, it doesn't scale so well as a slotted spell, but like you said; you just burned a slot to cast Wall, do you have a slot to burn on boosting damage above your cantrip?


I'd add Haste on your melee buddies in there as well, but yes, I'll make that concession. Control, buff, debuff, the real point is that these aren't kicking damage, and quite a few of them eat up your concentration.


You're either prepping spells, or you're choosing which ones to learn. Having several Concentration spells might give you a lot of flexibility from combat to combat, but once you're in that fight, you are probably going to pick one and go with it. Once you have your concentration up, any other concentrate spell is off the table. You could switch it up, but if you're concentrating on keeping something active for 4 rounds, what are you casting for those 4 rounds?



But how many slots do you have, and what are you using them on? Nah, a Cantrip might not do the most damage, but it doesn't eat a slot that's better saved for doing something that the Fighters and Rogues of the party can do just as well.
Leveled Blaster spells are more like a Nova, like a Smite. They spike your damage way up, but you can't do it all day long. Leveled Blaster spells also don't scale all that well for the slot investment, so you're stuck playing "keep up" all career, taking damage spells at every level to keep up, or scaling badly and falling behind.
Cantrips scale automatically. It makes perfect sense that burning your highest level slot should do more damage, you used a resource. That's like comparing a melee attack with a Paladin's Smite.


2 levels of Warlock is all it takes to get what you need. D10+Cha and why not take Hex? Also gives you slotless Mage Armor, and renewing spell slots for SorcPoints or throwing around utility spells.
It slows your caster progression (but you still get 9lvl slot) and ASIs, and costs you your 20th level capstone. But be realistic, how long does your campaign run at 20th, if it gets there at all? I would rather have a character who pulls strong at the lower and mid levels, and then tapers off at the late game - because I might never even see that taper.
2 levels of Warlock is so front-loaded that until your 1st level slots become worthless, you're actually looking rosy compared to straight-classed full-casters (MCing does wreck Half/Third casters). If you're a Sorcerer who can drop slots for points, you're doing well all career long, because every short rest you get to pull in points.

Why not play a Warrior? Well first of all, a Warrior isn't also getting the flexibility that spells provide. I can't Control with a Warrior. Asking why you don't play a Warrior to deal damage, is like asking the party Tank why he doesn't go for a Wizard to control enemy positioning. Addiyionally, casters are usually better at Range (except AS+SS Fighter) and better against groups. Don't forget that Eldritch Blast can be spread across targets just like an Archer can split their shots.

In all, I think that Blasting is viable in this edition, but it's not really optimal for a caster to pour their heart and soul into it. Casters remain force-multipliers through and through. Throw Haste/Bless and make the Fighter better. Throw Wall and lock off half the battlefield. That's your primary role. After that, you get the utility stuff or blasting.

I'd say that if you really want to blast, then Tempest Theurge and SorLock is your best bet. And even then, you're sacrificing the raw damage of someone like a Barbarian, for the ability to chuck utility spells and maybe drop some big, bursty, Nova rounds.

- again, this still leaves us at cantrips not being "pretty solid" blasting options. they're what you do when you don't have something better to do.

- i wouldn't add haste most of the time. polymorph gives you a ~150 HP giant ape that can beat the crud out of most 7th level characters easily. haste gives one person an extra attack, some movement, and some AC, at the expense of your concentration and at a terrible risk if you lose concentration. the two do not belong in remotely the same category; you use haste if you're fighting a rakshasa or something like that which you are literally incapable of doing anything to directly. you use polymorph whenever, because it supercharges one person in the party at an incredibly low resource cost.

- picking different spells based on which fight you're in is not a signature spell. a signature spell would be a specific spell that you prefer to use above others. picking the right spell for the job is the exact opposite of a signature spell, it means you have no strong preference and just do what works best at a given moment. i get that you'll be casting other (non-concentration) spells, but it's a terrible idea to decide in the morning "oh, i'll prepare web, and then absolutely no other concentration spells because i'm always going to concentrate on web", and it's an even worse idea to do that when you level up. at the start of a battle? sure, pick what you think will be most effective, and generally stick with that until the situation changes. but unless your DM lets you exchange prepared spells in the middle of a battle instead of after a long rest, you want options.

- you said cantrips are the best. i'm simply saying they aren't. they're the cheapest, which is *sometimes* the best, but not always. the best choice will depend on the situation, and sometimes the situation calls for you to nova damage, even if it has a high cost in resources. certainly, i wouldn't want to be without a damage cantrip, because otherwise you might end up spending a lot of rounds doing nothing constructive. but you don't use cantrips because they're the best, you use them because they're cheap and you're not willing to spend more.

- i don't care about the capstone. i care that when i could be casting fireball, i'm casting shatter. when i could be casting wall of force, i'm casting wall of fire. when i could be casting mass suggestion, i'm casting confusion. it has a drawback at every single level until you get your highest level of spells available (2 levels after you otherwise would), and all you get out of it is better "i don't care" options. unless your *sole* purpose for existing is to be a blaster, warlock dips have a high cost. a better cantrip is not worth 16 levels of being less effective. the 2 warlock dip sucks MORE if you aren't going to be at level 20, not less.

- you are seriously sacrificing a lot to get a stupid cantrip that you're going to use primarily when you don't care about the fight because it's already been won, and which still won't make you as good at being a warrior as just being a warrior in the first place. spellcasters are still quadratic in 5e, and being a couple of levels down is a major decrease in power. now, if all you want is a caster with at-will damage nearly as high as a warrior, then maybe that sacrifice is worth it, but it sure as hell isn't worth it from the perspective of being a better option, it's just the option you take if a certain concept is more important to you than maximum effectiveness. if you want a good damage option, take a good damage option, not a less mediocre one. specialize, don't generalize. seriously, eldritch blast with agonizing blast will add likely around 11-12 damage per round over what fire bolt would add on average (less if you get your casting modifier to damage with fire bolt). that's not nothing, but it isn't exactly awe-inspiring either.

as i've already said, there will be times when your spellcaster should nuke things. but don't get that confused with "you should make major sacrifices in effectiveness in your area of specialization so that you can have slightly better single target damage". keeping fireball and maybe even disintegrate on your spell list are reasonably good ideas. dipping 2 levels of warlock so you get a better cantrip, not so much. being a whole spell level behind sucks, and the trade-off is not something that is generally recommended.