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View Full Version : On the topic of Mystic Theurging(general talk)



danielxcutter
2016-11-30, 12:12 AM
(This is my opinion about Mystic Theurges, but it can also be applied to other dual-casting PrCs. Currently open for debate.)

Everyone says that Mystic Theurge is a very weak PrC. This makes sense, since having almost twice the number of spells doesn't really help when that's the only thing you have.

But just how weak is it? Yes, unless you're using early entry cheese, it's going to be weaker than just straight arcane or divine casters. However, I believe that even with the nerfed casting, you'll still be miles stronger than most mundanes or half casters. You have great flexiblity compared to fixed-list classes, such as Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, or Warmage. You have more spells than most mooks have hit points, so you might actually fight well against tons of weak foes. And to be honest, the only things you'll really be weak against are other level-appropriate casters and monsters with high SR.

On the other side of the screen, dual-casters don't suck as much for DM usage. The slower casting can be taken care of by pumping their CR into the lower stratosphere. Powerful single-class casters can easily wipe the floor with the PCs if not done well, but a dual-caster doesn't pack as much punch with a single spell. They aren't underwhelmingly weak either - what they lack in sheer power, they make up for that in their flexibility and stamina, since they have far more spell slots than a single PC will. There is also potential fluff-wise as well - why did he decide to learn both arcane and divine magic? How did he become so powerful? Was he ridiculed for being a jack-of-trades, or was he looked up to because of his talent in both fields, and was it his pride or their jealousy that drove him to evil? The same applies to PCs.

All in all, being a Mystic Theurge is indeed an unoptimal choice. I believe that it is, however, worth considering in certain situations, such as low-op games, or for a more complex and interesting character.

Feel free to agree, disagree, or throw in your two copper pieces.

gorfnab
2016-11-30, 12:45 AM
Access to more spells does give a character more versatility however that character is still limited to the same amount of actions per round. Considering that most spells you would use in combat are standard action or full round round action casting it really does not change your casters much in how they deal with more spells known. They may be able to hold out longer in prolonged combats or more combats per day however the power of spells that they can bring to the table will be slightly less than a full caster of equal level. It's almost a resource management thing too. Would you rather spend 3 rounds of party resources casting lower spells in order to end combat or spend 1 round of party resources casting a higher level spell?

Endarire
2016-11-30, 12:57 AM
Is it worth it to spend 1 level in your secondary casting class if it means theurging normally otherwise? For example, assume you could go Wizard1/Cleric1/Wizard+2/Theurge ClassesX. You lose out on some class features, but is this worthwhile? You lose 1 class level (0.5 spell level) instead of 1.5 spell levels!

danielxcutter
2016-11-30, 12:59 AM
Access to more spells does give a character more versatility however that character is still limited to the same amount of actions per round. Considering that most spells you would use in combat are standard action or full round round action casting it really does not change your casters much in how they deal with more spells known. They may be able to hold out longer in prolonged combats or more combats per day however the power of spells that they can bring to the table will be slightly less than a full caster of equal level. It's almost a resource management thing too. Would you rather spend 3 rounds of party resources casting lower spells in order to end combat or spend 1 round of party resources casting a higher level spell?

In high-op games, very true. Mystic Theurge is terrible in terms of power. However, combat isn't the only thing that casters help with. Having more spells per day and known can mean more ways to solve a problem.

I'm not saying that Mystic Theurge is an optimal choice, of course. I'm saying that it could be fun in the right situations. Also, it's a good tool for making villains on the DM side.

Troacctid
2016-11-30, 01:15 AM
Is it worth it to spend 1 level in your secondary casting class if it means theurging normally otherwise? For example, assume you could go Wizard1/Cleric1/Wizard+2/Theurge ClassesX. You lose out on some class features, but is this worthwhile? You lose 1 class level (0.5 spell level) instead of 1.5 spell levels!
Absolutely, IMO.

danielxcutter
2016-11-30, 01:20 AM
Is it worth it to spend 1 level in your secondary casting class if it means theurging normally otherwise? For example, assume you could go Wizard1/Cleric1/Wizard+2/Theurge ClassesX. You lose out on some class features, but is this worthwhile? You lose 1 class level (0.5 spell level) instead of 1.5 spell levels!

Yeah, I think that's my least favorite part about MT; you have to be level 6 to enter without cheese.

gorfnab
2016-11-30, 03:13 AM
Yeah, I think that's my least favorite part about MT; you have to be level 10 to enter without cheese.
I think you mean level 6. Wizard 3/ Cleric 3 gets in without cheese.

Muggins
2016-11-30, 03:28 AM
Mystic Theurge is "bad" because it's worse than the case classes it uses (Cleric, Wizard, and other T1 casters), but they're undoubtedly still better than non-casters. And it gets better if you use something like Ur-Priest, but not by much, since you're still losing caster levels.

The difference between 8th and 9th level spells is too slim to call Mystic Theurge the worst class ever, though.

Calthropstu
2016-11-30, 03:58 AM
Where the dual caster truly shines is long drawn out battles. Where the wizard or cleric is tapped out and throwing out magic missle at 17th level, the theurge has spells to spare.

So a high level theurge makes a supreme choice for a battlefield commander. Other places where a theurge will shine is dungeon crawling. Where a high level wizard is tapped out almost completely after about 6 or 7 encounters, the theurge can keep pushing onwards.

And the one I like best, the psion/wizard or sorcerer/wilder, will have the most use since theres no dual stat reliance to worry about.

danielxcutter
2016-11-30, 04:19 AM
Where the dual caster truly shines is long drawn out battles. Where the wizard or cleric is tapped out and throwing out magic missle at 17th level, the theurge has spells to spare.

So a high level theurge makes a supreme choice for a battlefield commander. Other places where a theurge will shine is dungeon crawling. Where a high level wizard is tapped out almost completely after about 6 or 7 encounters, the theurge can keep pushing onwards.

And the one I like best, the psion/wizard or sorcerer/wilder, will have the most use since theres no dual stat reliance to worry about.

Wizard/Archivist is good as well.