D&D5e player trying to relearn pathfinder; need help with character

[SouthpawSoldier]

Since release, I've been obsessed with 5th edition D&D. The intuitive, rules-light nature is a lot easier to learn and work with. Not calling Pathfinder Bad-Wrong-Fun, just not for me.

Part of my issue with 3.x and PF was the nature of the game (feats to negate penalties, feat chains, archetypes, favored classes, etc) made it feel like I had to be a paralegal to play. Without spending hours combing through the SRD or HeroLab options, I felt

a) I have a hard time realizing character concept.

b) I will not be able to keep pace with other players. Not talking about powergaming; talking about being able to contribute anything to the game.


So, the situation; 1st level, Gestalt OK (but requires twice the XP to advance); anything from the SRD.

What I want is a character designed to blend ease of play, simplistic build, etc with strong supporting role. Something like a Bard, but without Performance.

The character is the scion of a fallen noble house; he was the last heir, denied his birthright, and lives in the wilds of his homelands that were bequeathed to a rival family. Heavily tutored during his youth. Provides herbal healing and literacy lessons for the youth of his region, trying to rally support to be reinstated. Not of the wilds, but still capable in the wilderness. A linguist and student of other cultures. schooled in dueling and archery, but not a soldier; just the usual noble pursuits. Not a natural leader, but can usually use logic to persuade people to his ends.

I've had suggestions of various Rogue archetypes, or Psychic, and a couple other spontaneous caster classes.

The problem I'm having is too many choices, and the nature of Pathfinder making these choices very specific and important. 5e is designed around refluffing any skill or class ability to suit a concept, but the 3.PF skill system makes it feel I need ranks in shoe tying.


The downside; I REALLY want in this game. I've been after a couple of the players to get a game together for ages. I don't want system snobbery to cost me a chance to play with them, but Pathfinder isn't fun for me; the nature of d20 CharGen is stressful to me.

[Mordaedil]

Pathfinder/3.5 D&D is all about having a near endless amount of choices and some subpar and some good ones. You don't really need to powerbuild to contribute or be an effective character, you just need to be happy with your character on your own terms.

Most of the prestige classes and some base classes are there to provide you with flavor for what you want to do.

From reading your example, I would suggest picking Rogue, pump up intelligence and charisma and play the charismatic rogue who acts as the face of the party. However, you want to have at least a bit in strength and dexterity because D&D/Pathfinder is first and foremost a set of combat rules, which means you will eventually get into combat and you need to be able to deal with that.

The secret to being a good rogue though is to be prepared; your choice of basic inventory items will make you key and useful to the party. Don't mistake yourself for a scout, you want to be with the party at all times in case they get up to trouble. You'll want to flank the fighter at all times. You will carry bags and bottles of glass, then shatter the glass in the bag to toss it in the face of your enemy you blind them. You'll carry caltrops, think of inventive uses for them. Carry tanglefoot bags. Thunderstones. Carry soap, see if the pool of water of you found is acidic.

You can be the batman of the group, if you want.

[exelsisxax]

Your character concept is too vague for build suggestions. Pathfinder has a lot of classes, as you probably know. What do you want this character to be able to do, what do you want to contribute to the party, what kind of playstyle do you want? What niches to play, which to drop? Pathfinder's mechanical complexity is a result of there being a tremendous number of options available. Unlike 5e, there's a ton of customization. If you don't know what you want to do, you'll end up with a mess of a character.

If you know what the rest of the party is playing, say so. If you don't like mechanics it'll totally suck donkey balls to not like the mechanics of a completely redundant and irrelevant PC that someone else already does the work of.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't want system snobbery to cost me a chance to play with them, but Pathfinder isn't fun for me; the nature of d20 CharGen is stressful to me.

Well you should start by letting go of your preconceptions. Consider that there's hundreds of thousands of players worldwide that, and without powergaming and forums like these, don't feel they cannot "contribute anything", and know that you don't need "ranks in shoe tying".

If you start with the assumption that you'll hate a game, without actually giving it a chance, then yes you will end up hating it. But that's all in your mind.


So you want a support character who's not a bard? Ok, try for a swashbuckler with the Inspired Blade archetype (so that you're intelligence-based and have the skill points you want), then spend your first three feats on Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, and Combat Advice so you can do party support. That's straightforward to play and matches your concept.

[Grod_The_Giant]

<Finger crack> I present to you the Investigator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator). Rogue-y chassis, Int based. Alchemical ("herbal") magic. Always, always capable of helping.

The class has two main resources:

Alchemy, which is like middling-power spellcasting with one important difference: you mix pseudo-potions instead of preparing spells, and (with the right talent) once prepared anyone can drink it. That makes you a surprisingly effective buffer, because you don't need to spend your own actions or even get anywhere close to the person you're helping. As a bonus, it only takes a minute to mix up an extract, so you can prepare them practically on the fly. You have a spellbook full of these, Wizard-style.
Inspiration, which is a normal 5e-style Long Rest resource that, by default, can be spent on boosting skill checks (for free with academic skills) and on attacks and saves (though not recommended, due to added cost)


Your main build choice are Investigator Talents, which... I guess maybe think Warlock Invocations? You won't get them for a few levels, but they add a lot of fun options.

Alchemical Discovery you're probably going to overlook. Don't-- take it ASAP (3rd), and pick the Infusion Discovery. That means other people can use your extracts.
Quick Study is probably your next pick at 5th, since it lets you activate your offense easily.
I recommend Sickening Offensive at 7th, which adds a lovely, unavoidable debuff to all your attacks.


Additionally, take the Empiricist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo---investigator-archetypes/empiricist) archetype and take the traits Student of Philosophy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/student-of-philosophy) and Clever Wordplay (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/clever-wordplay). You can now use Intelligence for Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device, pretty much all Diplomacy, the most important part of Bluff, and all of another Charisma skill (Intimidate?) of your choice. You're a very clever guy, you see.

[Calthropstu]

Actually, the character concept sounds more ranger to me than rogue. Rogue works I suppose, and is definitely more simple to play, but the ranger's abilities almost completely mesh here. Maybe a combination of the two?

I would suggest the following:
Ranger first level, human I presume?
1st level feat point blank, human feat: cosmopolitan. This will get you 2 extra skills as class skills plus 2 bonus languages... which would reflect your childhood training. And the point blank because rabbit hunting.

Pick an enemy for your guy to dislike, assign your skill points spend your gold and you're off to a great PF start.

It's not optomized, It's not useless, you can be concentrating on bow fire and eventually getting some support magics. Your wilderness skills (survical) will serve you well in your adventures, and your training (in the form of 2 skills you pick as class skills... I suggest diplomacy and knowledge nobility for your chacter concept) will allow you to function well in cities and amongst high society.

[stanprollyright]

So you want a support character who's not a bard? Ok, try for a swashbuckler with the Inspired Blade archetype (so that you're intelligence-based and have the skill points you want), then spend your first three feats on Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, and Combat Advice so you can do party support. That's straightforward to play and matches your concept.


<Finger crack> I present to you the Investigator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator). Rogue-y chassis, Int based. Alchemical ("herbal") magic. Always, always capable of helping.

The class has two main resources:

Alchemy, which is like middling-power spellcasting with one important difference: you mix pseudo-potions instead of preparing spells, and (with the right talent) once prepared anyone can drink it. That makes you a surprisingly effective buffer, because you don't need to spend your own actions or even get anywhere close to the person you're helping. As a bonus, it only takes a minute to mix up an extract, so you can prepare them practically on the fly. You have a spellbook full of these, Wizard-style.
Inspiration, which is a normal 5e-style Long Rest resource that, by default, can be spent on boosting skill checks (for free with academic skills) and on attacks and saves (though not recommended, due to added cost)


Your main build choice are Investigator Talents, which... I guess maybe think Warlock Invocations? You won't get them for a few levels, but they add a lot of fun options.

Alchemical Discovery you're probably going to overlook. Don't-- take it ASAP (3rd), and pick the Infusion Discovery. That means other people can use your extracts.
Quick Study is probably your next pick at 5th, since it lets you activate your offense easily.
I recommend Sickening Offensive at 7th, which adds a lovely, unavoidable debuff to all your attacks.


Additionally, take the Empiricist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo---investigator-archetypes/empiricist) archetype and take the traits Student of Philosophy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/student-of-philosophy) and Clever Wordplay (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/clever-wordplay). You can now use Intelligence for Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device, pretty much all Diplomacy, the most important part of Bluff, and all of another Charisma skill (Intimidate?) of your choice. You're a very clever guy, you see.

Do both. Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1/Investigator 19 is a great build. Take Fencing Grace (dex to damage) at level 1, and the rest is up to you. Combat Reflexes and Extra Panache will make you a parrying/riposting machine. Imp Crit or Keen Rapier ASAP. Elf or Half-elf have the best favored class bonuses. I agree with Grod's Talent list, but will add to it: Mutagen is also a good option if you want more combat ability. Combat Inspiration is probably your 9th level talent, and after that the Amazing Inspiration feat becomes, well, amazing.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Do both. Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 1/Investigator 19 is a great build. Take Fencing Grace (dex to damage) at level 1, and the rest is up to you. Combat Reflexes and Extra Panache will make you a parrying/riposting machine. Imp Crit or Keen Rapier ASAP. Elf or Half-elf have the best favored class bonuses. I agree with Grod's Talent list, but will add to it: Mutagen is also a good option if you want more combat ability. Combat Inspiration is probably your 9th level talent, and after that the Amazing Inspiration feat becomes, well, amazing.
Ooh yeah, very good call. A level of Swashbuckler would also help with low-level offense that the Investigator sometimes struggles with.

It also occurs to me that a Vivisectionist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist) Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) hits similar points to the Investigator with a little more raw power (especially at low levels) and familiar mechanics (Sneak Attack instead of Inspiration/Studied Combat). You can take the same two traits I mentioned with the Investigator to still be a logically-persuasive character, and you can add the Trap Breaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/trap-breaker-alchemist-archetype)archetype to be even more Rogue-y if you so choose. You get the exact same alchemy-magic, but trade the skill-boosting class abilities* for a stat-boosting "mutagen" and the attack/damage boost for bombs (or, with Vivisectionist, sneak attack).

...I just really like Alchemy in Pathfinder.


*Though note that the Alchemist "spell" list still has some amazing skill-boosting extracts.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Well you should start by letting go of your preconceptions. Consider that there's hundreds of thousands of players worldwide that, and without powergaming and forums like these, don't feel they cannot "contribute anything", and know that you don't need "ranks in shoe tying".

I spent 3 years as a frustrated 3.5/Pathfinder player, because it was the only game I could find. That table was full of people for whom min/max WAS the game. Even in the current group, I've had someone express surprise at my difficulty; she finds research enjoyable, but I find it frustrating.

It was also my introduction to roleplaying games. Took me a bit to learn that it wasn't the only way to play.

My gripes with 3.5 derivatives are exemplified by Feat Taxes; I have to use a feat to be a functional Dex melee character, or a handful to be passable at archery. I want my character to be interesting at first level, not at 10th.

A good analogy; the Mass effect series was the perfect RPG for me. Just the right balance of player agency, and structure. Games like Oblivion and Fallout are overwhelming; ostensibly sandbox, but skill synergy and seemingly minutiae character decisions can cause severe limits later on.


As far as specifics for the character intent:

Able to make the party shine, without an encyclopedia of spells or encyclopedic knowledge of game mechanics.

Not a Face, and definitely not the leader of the party. One possible direction for the setting is that the party is my only chance at survival due to sociopolitical enemies, but that still has to be ironed out.

Capable in the outdoors, but not to the degree of a stereotypical Ranger or Druid.

Adequate at dueling*, but not a master fencer. Passable Archery.

Education on par with a well-tutored minor noble. Languages, culture of neighboring lands, heraldry, calligraphy, etc.

Think James Audubon meets Dr. Gregory House, and a little of Cyrano de Bergerac (Gascon pride in self, especially).

*Intent for fencing is rapier & handaxe/tomahawk. Instead of the parrying dagger found in Italian and Spanish styles, he uses the more practical handaxe. Destreza fencing; intellectual approach. Archery was for sport, and as a form of meditation/relaxation.

I'd like to avoid spellcasting (and analog mechanics) especially prepared casting. I'm not in the mood for resource management, or book keeping.

[exelsisxax]

Your mindset means you will be the least powerful character at the table in most situations.

You want to be a buffer/support, but don't want to use any of the methods to do so.
You don't want to be useful with social skills.
You want to be worse than rangers and druids at their least useful roles.
You want to be able to fight, but not very well.
But you do want to be really good at some skills that are generally worthless or quickly superceded by any spellcaster worth their salt.

The other player you were talking about? Her PC is going to be more useful in every single situation that your PC, at all times. This isn't an optimization issue. You are just creating a puzzle with a small number of solutions, and then insisting that you aren't going to use any of them because of bookkeeping.

[Mordaedil]

Seems like a dead ringer for the NPC class, the Aristocrat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/aristocrat.htm)

Not really sure I get the Mass Effect thing though, did that even have any choices? I can't recall anything worthwhile about anything in that game.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Is magic really the only way to be useful in pathfinder? Are skills that unimportant?

[Recherché]

Is magic really the only way to be useful in pathfinder? Are skills that unimportant?

At higher levels magic is quite a bit more powerful than spells. Spells scale up very quickly while skills scale up more slowly.

The other issue is that Pathfinder heavily rewards specialization. The jack of all trades master of none doesn't tend to do very well. There are ways to make the intimidation skill rule the game, it just requires that you focus very hard on that one aspect. Same with a lot of the other cool tricks. You talk a lot about wanting to do things passably but very little about wanting to do anything spectacularly. In pathfinder that tends to lead to a character that can do a lot of things slightly better than absolutely horrid and nothing very useful.

[Kurald Galain]

Is magic really the only way to be useful in pathfinder? Are skills that unimportant?

Absolutely not.

Perhaps at level 17 and up you'd have a case for that. But pretty much nobody ever plays at that level, so that's very much a moot point. For example, the biggest Pathfinder campaign worldwide (PFS) is famous for characters requiring skills and lots of them.

[mistermysterio]

If you don't want to think about things too much, just figure out what role the group needs filled, pick a reasonable class to go with that role, and then look at a guide. Almost all possible classes have one or two guides written for them. Find a guide and select everything based on the top suggestions from the guide. You won't have too much to worry about in terms of research (someone else has done it for you), and you can concentrate only on those "good" abilities. Maybe pick a class that doesn't have to prepare spells (b/c bookkeeping), but there are plenty of ways to get things going without having to read through all of the myriad options out there :)

Edit: Also, skills ARE important, but you said that you do not want to act as a group face (which is where a lot of skills shine). As an aristocratic character with lots of study and training, being a face seems like a fitting role. *shrug*

Edit 2: Maybe look into the Cavalier class? The mounted-combat warrior who exerts battlefield control (support) and engages well in court intrigue and diplomacy? Fitting for a minor noble, anyhow. Couple guides:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uuAB8SfE5ssZLYwa1LuQQ4haz1tD1q28Iyl8XAdMNxY/edit

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234104-By-My-Honor-A-Cavalier-s-Guide

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah, I'm... kind of with exelsisxax here. You're defining yourself as passable at a lot of things, but you don't want to be good at anything. Trained in Survival but with no special abilities related to the outdoors. Persuasive without being a face. A fighter but not a good one. Knowledgeable, but that tends to be a tertiary thing at best. I dunno... for any game, but especially this one, you kind of need to pick a thing and say "this is what I want to do, this is what I want to be good at." What do you see this character doing? What do you see them excelling at doing?

That really only leaves us with support, which is really hard to do without magic (or at least a comparable power-system) in... really, anything but 4e, I think. Hard to do well, certainly, but hard to do at all. 3.5 had the Marshal, bad as it was, Pathfinder has... uh...

Okay. Idea one is to take the Investigator I mentioned earlier and use the Sleuth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo---investigator-archetypes/sleuth) or Spiritualist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo---investigator-archetypes/spiritualist) archetype to remove the casting. Both of these, for the record, are awful, and mean you can't get Empiricist, but they get rid of the spells. At 3rd level, take the Effortless Aid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/investigator-talents/paizo---investigator-talents/effortless-aid) talent; now you can Aid Another as a move or swift (~bonus) action. It's also not very good, but... eh? You can take more Talents to get more free uses of Inspiration to cut down on bookkeeping, I guess.

The Inspired Blade Swashbuckler fits moderately well, as mentioned before. You could add on Mouser (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler/archetypes/paizo---swashbuckler-archetypes/mouser) if you're willing to play a Small race, I suppose; that lets you hang out in an enemy's square and mess with them, basically. So... there's a little bit of support, and a lot of intelligent courtliness. You do wind up being a pretty good fighter, though.

Otherwise, I dunno... Unchained Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained) and Slayer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer) pretty decent but doesn't feel like they fit too well with your concept;

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by SouthpawSoldier
Think James Audubon meets Dr. Gregory House, and a little of Cyrano de Bergerac (Gascon pride in self, especially).

I like this character concept, especially the tomahawk aspect, and the backstory of a disinherited young noble is classic. This gives me a Roger's Rangers sort of vibe, especially with the Audubon reference.

My suggestion would be to start with a level of bard, which gives you access to plenty of skills--in particular linguistics and all the knowledges, which can represent your schooling under tutors while growing up. This would easily get you Knowledge (nobility) and Craft (calligraphy). The bard also has Inspire Courage, which is a minor boost to your entire party, and no one's likely to turn that down. There's also a spell or two, but nothing says you need to use them. At first level they're pretty trivial anyway, and you can safely ignore them.

After the first level of bard, I would suggest going ranger. You don't need to worry about spells for the first four levels, which will probably be weeks or months of real-life gaming. In the meantime, you'll maintain a decent selection of skills, you'll pick up a bonus combat feat, and you'll gain the wilderness capability that's part of your character concept.

For a slightly more aggressive approach, you could go for slayer instead of ranger. No spellcasting whatsoever, good hit points and skill selection, and some handy combat abilities. The slayer is a composite of ranger and rogue abilities, and the mix of skills might be what you're looking for.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Palanan, your PM inbox is full, so I'll throw it up here.

Variants of this idea have been my main character concept since I started with RPGs; hell, before that. Even my gamertag for XboxLive is based on this concept.

In depth backstory and description is here/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/DungeonsAndDragons/comments/4vfout/secret_shrek_campaign/d5y5f0l/).

In 5e, I had LOADS of ways of getting the character to work. In Pathfinder, it feels like I have to really specialize in one facet or another.

[Kurald Galain]

In 5e, I had LOADS of ways of getting the character to work. In Pathfinder, it feels like I have to really specialize in one facet or another.

Riiiight. With a mindset like that, it's clear that you're not going to enjoy <game you dislike> so you should really stick with <game you like> instead. If you like to play Football and hate playing Hockey, you're not suddenly going to like hockey just because you meet some guys who only play that.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Is True Professional viable for a support player?

[exelsisxax]

Is magic really the only way to be useful in pathfinder? Are skills that unimportant?

Nope. But your requirements also disallow anything that isn't "roll to attack" or "roll to do skill". You've pre-banned spellcasting, performance, alchemy, deeds, path of war, psionics, and companion creatures. Your starting point is "I don't want to have a character that can do many things" which has only one endpoint: mediocrity.


Palanan, your PM inbox is full, so I'll throw it up here.

Variants of this idea have been my main character concept since I started with RPGs; hell, before that. Even my gamertag for XboxLive is based on this concept.

In depth backstory and description is here/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/DungeonsAndDragons/comments/4vfout/secret_shrek_campaign/d5y5f0l/).

In 5e, I had LOADS of ways of getting the character to work. In Pathfinder, it feels like I have to really specialize in one facet or another.

Well, you're objectively wrong. Pathfinder does include the content to build basically any concept you want, while 5e in fact does not. 5e's hallmark of balance is making everything mechanically the same. Pathfinder supports turning fluff into crunch. Your problem is that you don't seem to like mechanics.

Is True Professional viable for a support player?

For you? No. The strongest option is the cantrip, which you won't use. Otherwise, a severe downgrade for a rogue. Play a fighter, you'll be less bad.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In 5e, I had LOADS of ways of getting the character to work. In Pathfinder, it feels like I have to really specialize in one facet or another.
How 'bout this? Post your favorite 5e build for the concept, and we'll try to translate it into Pathfinder?

[SouthpawSoldier]

Battlemaster. TWF Fighting Style (Rapier and handaxe) with a Longbow on his back. DEX>INT>WIS. Elvish and Gnomish languages from Background (artist and scientist languages), but with Outlander feature.

Proficient in Survival, History, Perception, Intimidation (Race), Investigation, and Medicine or Nature, depending on my mood and the party's needs.

Maneuvers selected from those that work for DEX-based combat, controlling positions of foes and giving the Rogue Advantage.

Feats, if selected, are Dual Wielder and Linguist; maybe Healer, though that one has some issues. Maybe one or two others, if I don't focus on maxing Dexterity.

He can fence, he can shoot, he can translate puzzles and communicate in Acadamia, he can forage for food, he can bandage a wound.

Not a Face, not a Beatstick, not a Knowledge or Skill Monkey. But is REASONABLY functionable across a variety of fields.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Battlemaster. TWF Fighting Style (Rapier and handaxe) with a Longbow on his back. DEX>INT>WIS. Elvish and Gnomish languages from Background (artist and scientist languages), but with Outlander feature.

Proficient in Survival, History, Perception, Intimidation (Race), Investigation, and Medicine or Nature, depending on my mood and the party's needs.

Maneuvers selected from those that work for DEX-based combat, controlling positions of foes and giving the Rogue Advantage.

Feats, if selected, are Dual Wielder and Linguist; maybe Healer, though that one has some issues. Maybe one or two others, if I don't focus on maxing Dexterity.

He can fence, he can shoot, he can translate puzzles and communicate in Acadamia, he can forage for food, he can bandage a wound.

Not a Face, not a Beatstick, not a Knowledge or Skill Monkey. But is REASONABLY functionable across a variety of fields.
Hmm. So you're looking at two-weapon fighting, some mundane control/debuff skills, decent skills... How about a Skirmisher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/skirmisher) Ranger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger)? Trade your magic for Battlemaster-type special combat maneuvers. You've got some debuffs, some support, even a semi-party-face ability. Most of the other big features can be swapped out by the appropriate archetype choice, if you so desire-- you may be interested in Freebooter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/freebooter) (despite the name, mostly boosts allies) or Guide (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/guide) (no favored enemy, help your friends out in your favored terrains). The Ranger has plenty of skills, which should cover that aspect fairly well, and you can (if you so choose) do what I've seen referred to as the "switch hitter" build-- take the Archery combat style and melee combat feats, or vice-versa. There are plenty of Traits to add missing class skills like Linguistics, though it's a fairly minor bonus beyond early levels.

How does that sound by you? I/we can come up with a more firm build if you like the general idea.

[exelsisxax]

Battlemaster. TWF Fighting Style (Rapier and handaxe) with a Longbow on his back. DEX>INT>WIS. Elvish and Gnomish languages from Background (artist and scientist languages), but with Outlander feature.

Proficient in Survival, History, Perception, Intimidation (Race), Investigation, and Medicine or Nature, depending on my mood and the party's needs.

Maneuvers selected from those that work for DEX-based combat, controlling positions of foes and giving the Rogue Advantage.

Feats, if selected, are Dual Wielder and Linguist; maybe Healer, though that one has some issues. Maybe one or two others, if I don't focus on maxing Dexterity.

He can fence, he can shoot, he can translate puzzles and communicate in Acadamia, he can forage for food, he can bandage a wound.

Not a Face, not a Beatstick, not a Knowledge or Skill Monkey. But is REASONABLY functionable across a variety of fields.

This is very vague. Because it's so vague, there's a ton of ways to accomplish it. List of classes that can emulate this with a few feats and traits, possibly an archetype:

Bard, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, cavalier, vigilante, investigator, slayer, swashbuckler.

Basically just get TWF, use traits to get missing class skills, have at least 12 INT to get the languages and skill ranks. Use an archetype to switch out of spellcasting if that matters in this hypothetical. Oh, and buy a bow.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Hmm. So you're looking at two-weapon fighting, some mundane control/debuff skills, decent skills...

How does that sound by you? I/we can come up with a more firm build if you like the general idea.

The Two Weapon Fighting and Finesse weapons are negotiable, but yes. I want to be able to at least attempt a variety of skills, not be helpless in combat, and, most importantly, be a facilitator. Fits my nature of wanting to help/serve.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Two Weapon Fighting and Finesse weapons are negotiable, but yes. I want to be able to at least attempt a variety of skills, not be helpless in combat, and, most importantly, be a facilitator. Fits my nature of wanting to help/serve.
Does the Ranger setup look like a good base, then?

[SouthpawSoldier]

This is very vague.

How is it vague? I listed Class, Subclass, Skills, Languages, Ability scores priorities (assume standard array) and Feats. Race is Half-Orc, like I mentioned before. I covered Weapon preference as well. Only thing I didn't list was specific Maneuvers. I described intended play style and functions. Backstory fluff was in the link I posted before, too.

I honestly don't know how I could get more specific, other than listing specific ability scores and maneuvers.

Can't do the latter, because I'm AFB.

STR: 10+2 Racial
DEX: 15
CON: 13+1 Racial
INT: 14
WIS:12
CHA:8

Use ASI's to bump DEX, maybe INT & WIS, if I decide not to gain some Feats.

That's as specific as I can get, other than maybe listing equipment?

[SouthpawSoldier]

Does the Ranger setup look like a good base, then?

Mobile right now, and my phone doesn't like the SRD, but I will look at your suggestions as soon as I get home.

[DMVerdandi]

Alright... Gonna throw something against the wall. It was a totally sick build that I saw earlier today.

Arcanist(Blood Arcanist Variant [Psychic Bloodline])XX

All of this in layman terms? You cast like a 5e Wizard, but instead of using verbal and somatic components, you use emotion and thought components (If you are under fear effects you can't cast spells/and for spells with concentration checks, you get hit with +10 on the DC, can negate with a move action to center yourself.)

Why is that significant? Well, firstly, you don't have to go around chanting crazy words and doing hand seals from naruto to cast stuff. Instead, the spells you cast are simply from the strength of your own emotional and mental prowess. You have enough willpower to just make the impossible possible.




Do you have to sling fireballs with this though? Absolutely not.
Lets prepare you a completely social spell loadout for Level 5


Level 0 Cantrips: Resistance, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Touch of Fatigue,Daze, Message

Level 1:Rite of Centered mind, Secluded Grimoire, Cultural Adaptation, Comprehend Languages,Discern Next of kin, Alchemical Tinkering


1.Rite of Centered Mind Gives you bonuses to resisting mental changes, which is good for emotional components. Keeps you casting.

2. Secluded Grimoire lets you hide your spellbook in an extra dimensional space, so no stealing it or having it be destroyed.

3.Cultural Adaptation gives +2 to diplomacy and Disguise Self when Adapting to a new culture. Great for finding tribes of people you don't know.

4. Comprehend Languages Allows you to...Comprehend languages you don't know.

5.Discern Next of kin gives you the ability to read a subjects mind into their family history. Very relevant in the fact that your character is very concerned with lines of nobility and family history.

6. Alchemical Tinkering. Use of alchemical items and such seem to be somewhat of a thing that your character can do. This allows you to change one alchemical item, or firearm into another.





Level 2: Visualization of the mind, Visualization of the Body, Protection from Evil Communal,


1.Visualization of the mind is one of the coolest buffs I have ever seen.
For each casting, Choose one mental ability score. +5 to skill and ability checks Lasts 24 hours. If you decide to activate an immediate effect, you get a bonus based on whether it's cha, wis, or INT.
Naturally, buff Cha and INT for the all day bonus.

2. Communal Protection from evil gives your allies and you +2 AC, +2 saves, Reroll attempts to control minds of allies/you with +2 moral bonus, and evil creatures can't use natural attacks or grapple you.
Just a solid group buff.

3.Visualization of the Body
Same as visualization of the mind, but with physical scores.
Having these two spells really gives the character a sort of robustness. Mind over matter, really.
I would really suggest looking into these spells further than my description because they are ridiculously awesome.





Are you really slinging spell bolts around like that? Absolutely not. This is very subtle and low key, but you still have the power to switch around and get blasty if you want.
Essentially, what this build is allowing you to do is have fantastic powers of perception and learned understanding.

The cool thing about this class, and this setup, is as long as you have the spells in your spell book, you can shift them around daily, exchanging one spell prepared for another, and furthermore, you can delay preparation on a slot for later, and just keep it open, and if you have a couple of minutes, prepare the spell you need.


Going further into the class, All you really have to do is just focus on picking up divination, enchantment, illusion, and abjuration spells, and you will have a REALLY fantastic means to buff your allies, be smarter than everyone else, skill-monkey like a champion, and do a really awesome job being the face/diplomancer of the party.

As for feats, Errata says that RAI for Spell mastery on prepared casters is generally OK, as wizard was the only prepared caster when it was made, and since it grew, it's kind of... unfair to keep it for wizard only.
Just keep taking prepared caster. The less you have to rely on your spell book, the better.



This is a pretty sick setup though.
Will probably use it myself later. I made a pirate out of a wizard before, and generally like the idea of utility casting without overtly being...Wizardy.

[exelsisxax]

How is it vague? I listed Class, Subclass, Skills, Languages, Ability scores priorities (assume standard array) and Feats. Race is Half-Orc, like I mentioned before. I covered Weapon preference as well. Only thing I didn't list was specific Maneuvers. I described intended play style and functions. Backstory fluff was in the link I posted before, too.

I honestly don't know how I could get more specific, other than listing specific ability scores and maneuvers.

Can't do the latter, because I'm AFB.

STR: 10+2 Racial
DEX: 15
CON: 13+1 Racial
INT: 14
WIS:12
CHA:8

Use ASI's to bump DEX, maybe INT & WIS, if I decide not to gain some Feats.

That's as specific as I can get, other than maybe listing equipment?

You haven't listed anything mechanically distinct. What do you want your character to be able to do? The only significant thing you listed is TWF, which any class can take advantage of. Your "playstyle and functions" was devoid of meaningful information.

[Mordaedil]

My wizard has TWF and she is small and flies with daggers and pokes people in the eye.

Lots of fun. She dies alot.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by DMVerdandi
You cast like a 5e Wizard….

The OP never mentioned wanting to cast like a wizard. The OP specifically mentioned he didn't want to be a spellcaster, full stop.


Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
Does the Ranger setup look like a good base, then?

I would agree the Ranger is probably the best place to start, and the Skirmisher Ranger in particular looks like a nice match.

[stanprollyright]

I would agree the Ranger is probably the best place to start, and the Skirmisher Ranger in particular looks like a nice match.

Slayer would also work nicely. All the right class skills, Track, proficient with everything, your choice of Rogue talents/ranger feats/nature talents. Vanguard archetype gets Tactician and free teamwork feats for a more support-y playstyle, Rogue talents for debuffs on sneak attacks.