A little help with Theurging and dual casters

[danielxcutter]

So Mystic Theurge and most dual casters in general are really bad. Still, I must admit that the idea is really cool. So I'd like a little advice about the archetype in general. I also have a few questions.

*Mystic Theurge can be used to advance Druid casting, and Arcane Hierophant does that too, right? So why isn't a Wizard 3/Druid 3/AH 10/MT 4 or something possible? Yes, I know that it probably isn't, but I don't know why.

*On the arcane/psionics side, there's Cerebromancer, but I think there was also a PrC called Mind Mage that also progressed both sides. Also, I think that there are some multiclassing feats for arcane/psionics, like one that let Wizard caster levels and manifester levels or something - so is an arcane/psionics build better or easier to make than other dual casters? If so, how?

*I hear Anima Mage and Ultimate Magus are two dual casting classes that are good - why? Also, are there any other good ones?

*Using dual casting PrCs is difficult for a PC, but what about a villain or NPC? It seems to be a good way of making a powerful enemy without one-shotting the Rogue or something.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So Mystic Theurge and most dual casters in general are really bad. Still, I must admit that the idea is really cool. So I'd like a little advice about the archetype in general. I also have a few questions.
Generally speaking, to make them "good" you need to use early access tricks on at least one side. Precocious Apprentice is probably the most basic (though debated) one, letting you hit that "second level spells" benchmark with only one level of an arcane caster.


*Mystic Theurge can be used to advance Druid casting, and Arcane Hierophant does that too, right? So why isn't a Wizard 3/Druid 3/AH 10/MT 4 or something possible? Yes, I know that it probably isn't, but I don't know why.
Possible as far as I know <shrug>


*On the arcane/psionics side, there's Cerebromancer, but I think there was also a PrC called Mind Mage that also progressed both sides. Also, I think that there are some multiclassing feats for arcane/psionics, like one that let Wizard caster levels and manifester levels or something - so is an arcane/psionics build better or easier to make than other dual casters? If so, how?
A Wizard/Psion is much less MAD than, say, a Wizard/Druid, for a start. Alternately, combining the Ardent's weird manifesting mechanic (look closely; it's based on manifester level, not class) with Practiced Manifester makes early entry easy.


*I hear Anima Mage and Ultimate Magus are two dual casting classes that are good - why? Also, are there any other good ones?
Anima Mage can (debatably) be entered without any Binder levels at all, and you can get in preposterously early with enough flaws. It also gives you free metamagic a few times per day, which is one of the most powerful things you can find in 3.x. Ultimate Magus I'm less familiar with, but I think there's a way to manipulate caster levels such that you get basically full progression in your main class and use the second for utility and metamagic fuel.


*Using dual casting PrCs is difficult for a PC, but what about a villain or NPC? It seems to be a good way of making a powerful enemy without one-shotting the Rogue or something.
Adding a second set of casting onto a villain does surprisingly little to its CR, I should think; a spellcaster already has more spells available then they'll ever get to cast at your players, so adding more doesn't change things very much unless there's a specific combo you're using.

[AvatarVecna]

1) Wizard 3/Druid 3/AH 10/MT 4 is a nice enough build, but it still ends up 3 CL behind in both classes. What you want to do instead though is Druid 2/Wizard 1/MT 1/Druid +1/AH 10/MT +5, which ends with Druid behind 1 CL and Wizard behind 3, which your companion familiar and wild shape keeping up reasonably well for most of your career; the reason to go that route is that MT is easier to enter early than AH (the skill prereqs are lower and it doesn't require Trackless Step), so we get the build theurging as soon as possible. That kind of early entry requires some weirdness to meet the spell requirements, though, and as has been implied, it's highly debatable.

2) Cerebremancer doesn't have the MAD issue most theurge classes do (well, I guess you could build them to have MAD, but why would you?), and is pretty solid. Early entry's a bit harder (since spell early entry doesn't exactly work to bring powers online early); the potential problem you'll face with such a build is that you'll be oddly feat-starved splitting between magic-boosting feats and psionic-boosting feats (unless you can convince your magic and psionics are the same thing in all regards...but you've seen where that argument gets you).

3) Can't comment on Anima Mage, not familiar with the sub-system.

4) Ultimate Magus is weird. Like Arcane Heirophant, it's harder to enter early than Mystic Theurge is. At the same time, I can't do the AH trick of jumping into MT early, then jumping into Ultimate Magus, because they're not the same kind of theurge class. ((Side note, this is a problem with theurge classes that aren't arcane/divine: there's usually only the one class supporting other combos)) Ultimate Magus also isn't a full theurge class, with one side losing a couple caster levels. So why is this class considered good? Well, it gives one side full progression and the other less than full progression, and also gives you the ability to sacrifice spell slots (the thing theurges have tons of) to power metamagic for free (which casters love). So yeah...Ultimate Magus is a theurge class that's difficult to enter early and still doesn't give full dual-progression, but the metamagic BS and bonus feats make up for all that nonsense since you can have one near-full caster with some metamagic shenanigans.

5) NPCs that feel THE URGE TO THEURGE will be serviceable. The downside theurges have is that they have a lot of spells, but in exchange they give up caster level and potentially their SAD status, which combined make their slew of spells less powerful overall; they also reach spell levels a bit later than normal. This isn't as problematic for a villain as it is for a player, because it means that the villain has a metric ton of less powerful magic to throw around, looking quite impressive but ultimately not being quite as dangerous as a full caster. Also, while combat spells suffer for the lower CL and save DCs, utility spells remain viable. Theurges in general are particularly effective if you combine a standard class (like Cleric or Wizard) with a PrC that comes with its own spell progression (Beholder Mage, Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, Apostle Of Peace, etc) without losing nearly as much (although it generally takes longer for the theurging to come online, and for the second class to catch up entirely).

[danielxcutter]

Generally speaking, to make them "good" you need to use early access tricks on at least one side. Precocious Apprentice is probably the most basic (though debated) one, letting you hit that "second level spells" benchmark with only one level of an arcane caster.
Kinda shady though. I prefer using less uncertain rulings.



Possible as far as I know <shrug>

Wait, wait... Then don't you get 9ths on both sides at 20th level? Why haven't I seen this, because I'm sure that it would have come up at least once?


A Wizard/Psion is much less MAD than, say, a Wizard/Druid, for a start. Alternately, combining the Ardent's weird manifesting mechanic (look closely; it's based on manifester level, not class) with Practiced Manifester makes early entry easy.

Hmmm... Could you get both 9ths using Ardent, Practiced Manifester, Mind Mage and Cerebromancer?


Anima Mage can (debatably) be entered without any Binder levels at all, and you can get in preposterously early with enough flaws. It also gives you free metamagic a few times per day, which is one of the most powerful things you can find in 3.x. Ultimate Magus I'm less familiar with, but I think there's a way to manipulate caster levels such that you get basically full progression in your main class and use the second for utility and metamagic fuel.

Ooh, free metamagic... Who needs 8th-level vestiges when you can out-Wizard Wizards?


Adding a second set of casting onto a villain does surprisingly little to its CR, I should think; a spellcaster already has more spells available then they'll ever get to cast at your players, so adding more doesn't change things very much unless there's a specific combo you're using.

No, what I meant was having a high-level dual caster, just high enough to have similar or slightly stronger casting than the single-classed PC casters while not enough to blast them to ashes in the first 5 combat rounds. Also, any fun combos you have in mind? Thunderlance + Divine Power sounds fun...

[Kaje]

Anima Mage can (debatably) be entered without any Binder levels at all,

Anima Mage can certainly be entered without Binder levels, no question. The problem is whether you can increase your binding ability with the class.

[schreier]

To avoid MAD, you can also go wizard/archivist instead of cleric or druid.

[danielxcutter]

1) Wizard 3/Druid 3/AH 10/MT 4 is a nice enough build, but it still ends up 3 CL behind in both classes. What you want to do instead though is Druid 2/Wizard 1/MT 1/Druid +1/AH 10/MT +5, which ends with Druid behind 1 CL and Wizard behind 3, which your companion familiar and wild shape keeping up reasonably well for most of your career; the reason to go that route is that MT is easier to enter early than AH (the skill prereqs are lower and it doesn't require Trackless Step), so we get the build theurging as soon as possible. That kind of early entry requires some weirdness to meet the spell requirements, though, and as has been implied, it's highly debatable.

Yeah, I'd prefer to use the rulings that won't grant a DM an AoO.


2) Cerebremancer doesn't have the MAD issue most theurge classes do (well, I guess you could build them to have MAD, but why would you?), and is pretty solid. Early entry's a bit harder (since spell early entry doesn't exactly work to bring powers online early); the potential problem you'll face with such a build is that you'll be oddly feat-starved splitting between magic-boosting feats and psionic-boosting feats (unless you can convince your magic and psionics are the same thing in all regards...but you've seen where that argument gets you).

Argh, can't believe I'd forgotten metamagic and metapsionic feats. Guess you'd have to take metapsionics and blow half your WBL on metamagic rods.


4) Ultimate Magus is weird. Like Arcane Heirophant, it's harder to enter early than Mystic Theurge is. At the same time, I can't do the AH trick of jumping into MT early, then jumping into Ultimate Magus, because they're not the same kind of theurge class. ((Side note, this is a problem with theurge classes that aren't arcane/divine: there's usually only the one class supporting other combos)) Ultimate Magus also isn't a full theurge class, with one side losing a couple caster levels. So why is this class considered good? Well, it gives one side full progression and the other less than full progression, and also gives you the ability to sacrifice spell slots (the thing theurges have tons of) to power metamagic for free (which casters love). So yeah...Ultimate Magus is a theurge class that's difficult to enter early and still doesn't give full dual-progression, but the metamagic BS and bonus feats make up for all that nonsense since you can have one near-full caster with some metamagic shenanigans.

Oooooh yeah, free metamagic. Ironic that single-classed Wizards can't do that kind of stuff as well.


5) NPCs that feel THE URGE TO THEURGE will be serviceable. The downside theurges have is that they have a lot of spells, but in exchange they give up caster level and potentially their SAD status, which combined make their slew of spells less powerful overall; they also reach spell levels a bit later than normal. This isn't as problematic for a villain as it is for a player, because it means that the villain has a metric ton of less powerful magic to throw around, looking quite impressive but ultimately not being quite as dangerous as a full caster. Also, while combat spells suffer for the lower CL and save DCs, utility spells remain viable. Theurges in general are particularly effective if you combine a standard class (like Cleric or Wizard) with a PrC that comes with its own spell progression (Beholder Mage, Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, Apostle Of Peace, etc) without losing nearly as much (although it generally takes longer for the theurging to come online, and for the second class to catch up entirely).

Yeah, plus lots of low-level magic is better against lots of weaker foes, a situation most villains face, than one strong enemy, a situation most PCs face.

[Darrin]

*Mystic Theurge can be used to advance Druid casting, and Arcane Hierophant does that too, right? So why isn't a Wizard 3/Druid 3/AH 10/MT 4 or something possible? Yes, I know that it probably isn't, but I don't know why.


I'm fond of Bard 2/Druid 3/MT 2/AH 3/Sublime Chord 1/AH +6/MT +3.

Green Whisperer (Dragon #311) is a bit more efficient. You can also throw Fochlucan Lyrist on the back half with Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots and Open Least Chakra: Feet. (The entry requirements for Fochlucan Lyrist appear to be the result of a rather elaborate game of Calvinball (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Calvinball).)



*On the arcane/psionics side, there's Cerebromancer, but I think there was also a PrC called Mind Mage that also progressed both sides. Also, I think that there are some multiclassing feats for arcane/psionics, like one that let Wizard caster levels and manifester levels or something - so is an arcane/psionics build better or easier to make than other dual casters? If so, how?


There aren't really any multiclassing feats that mix arcane with psionics. The closest you come to that is an Ardent that takes the Magic Mantle, which grants sort of a "Magic/Psionics Super-Transparency". You can then take Practiced Manifester + Practiced Spellcaster and stack them. And the Ardent is unique in that access to higher-level powers is dependent on your Manifester level rather than actual levels of Ardent, so you can somewhat easily get 9th level arcane spells and 9th level psionic powers into the same build. This is generally called a "Dual 9" build. However, unlike most Mystic Theurges, since you skipped most of your mid-range Ardent levels, you're missing a good chunk of your mid-range punch.

If you can squeeze in Ur-Priest somewhere, you can try for a "Triple 9" build. The Triple Cheeseburger with Onions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16939250&postcount=23) is an example, and PlzBreakMyCmpAn has a Triple 9 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8770.msg140055) that I think uses Beholder Mage.



*I hear Anima Mage and Ultimate Magus are two dual casting classes that are good - why?

Anima Mage advances soul binding and arcane spellcasting. It's easy to get into without losing too many caster levels, soul binding is somewhat skill-based rather than level-based, and it includes a class feature that gives you free Metamagic usage. It's basically "Tier 1 Wizard" with most of a quirky alternative magic subsystem bolted on that you can fiddle with if you get bored pwning the multiverse.

Ultimate Magus is a Wizard 17 ice cream cake with 11 levels of Sorcerer frosting piled on top of it. It's for wizards who like to obliterate their opponents *and* the planet they are standing on, and then individually disintegrate each ash particle just in case anyone watching wasn't suitably impressed.



Also, are there any other good ones?


I'm partial to Eldritch Disciple, mostly because I find "Healing Blast" very amusing. Three basic flavors:

Cleric 4/Warlock 1/ED 10/Something 5
Cleric 1/Warlock 4/ED 10/Something 5
Warlock 5/Ur-Priest 2/ED 10/Hellfire Warlock 3

Eldritch Theurge isn't quite so good (mostly due to the EB 2d6 prereq), but still viable:

Warlock 3/Wizard 3/ED 10/Something 4



*Using dual casting PrCs is difficult for a PC, but what about a villain or NPC? It seems to be a good way of making a powerful enemy without one-shotting the Rogue or something.

The problem with dual-casting villains usually boils down to getting ganked by the action economy. Yes, they have more options, and have more spell slots to burn through, but if the villain only has one round's worth of actions every turn, a group of PCs will tear through them like wet kleenex just because the villain can only focus on one PC at a time. So you have to build into them some sort of action-economy abuse, which may involve threading the needle between "Bazooka/Flyswatter" and could get you a little finger-pointing from the players.

[AvatarVecna]

The metamagic/metapsionic issue only exists if you're focusing around those, but it means that you either need to get feats broad enough that they help both sides (like something that lets you use exchange power points for spell slots and vice versa, or something similar), or you need to focus your limited feats on boosting up one side at the expense of the other. That isn't a huge problem, though; like with the Ultimate Magus, you can focus on one side for combat and use the other for utility that doesn't need to be at max CL/ML.


Oooooh yeah, free metamagic. Ironic that single-classed Wizards can't do that kind of stuff as well.

To do that, though, you still have to delay your casting at least a little bit (unless you can convince your DM that Spontaneous Divination Wizard means you can "cast 1st lvl spells spontaneously", in which case you can advance Wizard at near-double speed!

Ultimately, the reason theurge is considered to suck, even with free metamagic and no MAD, is that it gets access to the higher level spells slower. The difference between getting access to Wish/Gate/Shapechange/Time Stop/etc at 18th instead of 17th is significant, especially since games rarely get past 15th anyway, and the higher the level climbs, the less likely you are to keep going after that (since you're at the end of the adventure and getting close to finishing). In a campaign where getting to 20 isn't a guarantee, Theurge is great if you enter early, and okay if you enter normally, but means that there's powerful, versatile, iconic spells you just won't be getting access to that a straight Wizard will...and at the higher spell levels, that sucks. A lot. A LOT.


Yeah, plus lots of low-level magic is better against lots of weaker foes, a situation most villains face, than one strong enemy, a situation most PCs face.

If you're making a theurge villain, make sure to take advantage of the theurges advantages: versatility in spells available, and sheer quantity of magic. Particularly if both sides are prepared casters, Quickened Spell will be your best friend (I recommend picking up Easy Metamagic if your group is cool with Dragon Mag material). The sheer volume of spells will make for a fun encounter, particularly if you stick to powers that are both effective and flashy.

[CaPtMalHammer]

Theurging can be a lot of fun if not painful. As mentioned the Apprentice Feat trick to get that 2nd level spell with a single dip in an arcane class can get you to that Theurge class a few levels earlier. Mystic Theurge is the easiest to get into and the most basic split caster.

The Rest tend to focus on one side of the spectrum or the other making it a primary focus with the other being the side dish of the meal.

I myself like Eldritch Disciple and Arcane Hierophant mostly. AH I really like as a summon build. Make great summon monster builds and stacking companion and familiar together is great. nothing like summoning 4 giant crocs and then making them all huge lol:) ED is very versatile can be a blaster or melee with right build or off healer all in one.

If you have an INT based caster. Knowledge Devotion feat is always useful.

Some of the tricks to get into these early are a little wonky and I try to avoid them :) if you can suffer through the growing pains and take the right metamagic feats Theurge is very powerful.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There aren't really any multiclassing feats that mix arcane with psionics.
There are, but not in books. Like the Mind Mage, the feats are in Dragon magazines, particularly #349 (Psiotheurgy) and #313 (Mind Mage). For example, the Chameleon Crafting feat allows you to create power stones of arcane spells, and scrolls of powers, effectively providing Spell-to-Power-to-Spell. It's not arcane-limited, either - you can convert divine to arcane by routing through psionic.

Mind Mage is probably the most powerful theurge class. It's like an Ultimate Magus, with extra stuff bolted on, such as ability to deliver touch spells with concussion, extra CL/ML boosts, higher save DCs for psi-spell feats (meaning: you add both ability modifiers, usually 2*INT, to the DC). Its main problem is that it guzzles PP/slots like nothing else, and encourages quite a few 'default' feats (two to enter, two to use Psiotheurgist, two for Persistent Spell, one for early entry). The resource consumption is based on spell/power level, which really encourages the use of heavily-augmented low-level powers/spells. Considering that theurges tend to have loads of low-level powers, I'd call that good design.

Mind Mage is best entered with something like psion 3/wizard 1/cerebremancer 2, requiring a +1 Heighten on the wizard side. You'll be behind on high-level powers, but your prefered school spells/discipline powers will have high ML with Psiotheurgy and Twin Wells, something like:


Level
CL
ML
Psiotheurgy CL&ML


6-10
3-5
5-7
8-12


11-15
6-10
13-21
19-31


16-20
21-25
23-27
44-52

[sleepyphoenixx]

Mystic Theurge is actually the worst of the dual casters, simply because it offers nothing except "more spells" with little to no synergy.
Since all full casters generally have enough spells to get through the day, quite comfortably at mid-high levels, it's not worth delaying your access to higher level spells.
Not to mention that you don't actually have significantly more spells until high levels, because of said delay. And what spells you have are weaker.
You have access to two different spell lists, but the big three spell lists are hardly lacking in power even on their own, and there's numerous ways to get access to spells from other lists without theurging.

You can enter Arcane Hierophant with Mystic Theurge, but it's bad for the same reason that most druid PrCs are bad: it doesn't advance your Wild Shape or Animal Companion, which both synergize quite well with being a spellcaster. More spells, as stated above, usually doesn't unless you have a particular combo in mind.

Psionic theurges actually have a significant upside in that psionics offers a lot of things to get more actions, at minimal cost. So you can actually make use of your higher number of resources.
It doesn't matter if you're a few levels behind if you can throw 3-4 spells a round with Linked Power, Synchronicity, Schism and so on.
You can also outsource your psionic and metapsionic feats to your psicrystal and get them with Feat Leech.
You're still behind a single-class caster, but it's a lot better than Mystic Theurge if you leverage psionics advantages properly.

Anima Mage and Ultimate Magus aren't good because they're dual progression classes.
They're good in spite of it because they grant free metamagic, which is probably the strongest thing you can get right after extra actions.

As for theurges as NPCs, it doesn't really come into play. No battle lasts long enough for the resource advantage to matter, and most NPC enemies are just dead after a fight. So you just get a weaker NPC caster in practice.

[schreier]

Mind Mage is awesome - but some of its powers are a little confusing.

Here's a thread trying to understand some of the uses (for example, how does a wizard use powerpoints to pay for metamagic - at memorization or at casting? If memorization, does it reduce your power point total until cast? If at casting, is it spontaneously applied or did you have to memorize with the "free" metamagic already and just actually spend the points at casting? If memorized with "free" - is there a way to cast without using powerpoints or if you are out of powerpoints)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492892-Mind-Mage-Psion&highlight=mind+mage