How to improve an adventure

[Thorin Ironfist]

Let's say that you're going through the adventure and the characters just aren't engaged at all and are ignoring everything. After the session, you ask them about why they are ignoring everything that's going on and apparently it is "The adventure is just out to kill us." when it really isn't.

What's going on is the adventure the characters are doing is meant to be unfair for levels 1-3, yet the players are level 5. It shouldn't be that hard of a quest, right?

They are playing Mines of Madness, and they hate it.

How do I salvage this? I'm seriously just considering saying "A magical force surrounds you and you teleport out of the mines and you appear at the front door of a tavern in (insert city here)." Are there options other than DM magic to save them? :smallmad:

[Falcon X]

Are the characters saying "I'm not fighting that thing! I'm not stupid?" If so, they sound like players that try to approach things pretty realistically and might have trouble with a classic dungeon crawl.

You're almost on the right idea. It sounds like a quest that doesn't fit you're player's style. They might be more interested in a social game or one focused on stealth.
Still, you might try to save it, but it might involve homebrewing the rest of it.

Personally, if you do decide to abort, I wouldn't make it too obvious that you are aborting. Slap on a final room of your own devising that gives the players an accomplishment, and THEN have them find a portal, or a rope to a hidden exit, or some other thing.

[Specter]

Inside the game structure, there are three pillars: combat, exploration and socializing. If they hate one of them, focus on the others. Add clever traps, puzzles and NPCs for negotation and more conversation time ("you're in the inn. Talk"). You may need to alter the adventure for these, of course.

Outside the game structure, add more music, images of scenery/NPCS, and of course, the almighty snacks.

If they hate everything, then it's their problem, not yours.

[Thorin Ironfist]

Are the characters saying "I'm not fighting that thing! I'm not stupid?" If so, they sound like players that try to approach things pretty realistically and might have trouble with a classic dungeon crawl.

It's more of a "There are too many traps and you're just trying to kill us off." (which I'm not. It's a brutal adventure.)


Personally, if you do decide to abort, I wouldn't make it too obvious that you are aborting. Slap on a final room of your own devising that gives the players an accomplishment, and THEN have them find a portal, or a rope to a hidden exit, or some other thing.

I think I'll give them a puzzle that, when solved, opens a hidden door to a room with some loot, a portal, and something else. What is something that is always fun for everyone? (or as close to that as possible)




Inside the game structure, there are three pillars: combat, exploration and socializing. If they hate one of them, focus on the others. Add clever traps, puzzles and NPCs for negotation and more conversation time ("you're in the inn. Talk"). You may need to alter the adventure for these, of course.

Outside the game structure, add more music, images of scenery/NPCS, and of course, the almighty snacks.

If they hate everything, then it's their problem, not yours.

I'm pretty sure it's the game structure. I can't speak for them, but from my perspective, it does look like it is stacked against the players, combat wise at least. I'll definitely give them more npc interaction and maybe some more puzzles.

Outside the game they seem to be content. We are in a game store that hosts tabletop and trading card games, so there is plenty of artwork, posters, snacks, etc.

[Alcibiades]

What's going on is the adventure the characters are doing is meant to be unfair for levels 1-3, yet the players are level 5. It shouldn't be that hard of a quest, right?

They are playing Mines of Madness, and they hate it.


The intro to Mines of Madness explicitly states that it's not designed to be a fair adventure but to "maim, frustrate, humble and ultimately kill the adventurers." It was ran at Pax East as an event, with a bunch of groups at the same time and with the mindset that this was supposed to be the living incarnation of a DM who just wants to kill his players.

At level 3 it's extremely deadly, but at level 5 it's still a really hard dungeon. And it's still very frustrating, with stuff the 'secret door' mimic, not really much (were there any? I don't remember) rewards inbetween the macguffin you're chasing etc. It's mostly a meat grinder.

That doesn't mean it's a bad adventure. Mines of Madness can be fun in the same sense Tomb of Horrors or Dark Souls can be fun - challenging and hilariously punishing. But if your players aren't in that mindset or simply don't like playing that way, I can get that they're frustrated.
I'd just give Mines of Madness a hard pass.

[SethoMarkus]

To try to salvage the rest of the adventure (at least until a point you can insert an "escape hatch"), I suggest handwaving away the majority of the remaining traps, and the ones you do leave in change the punishment for failure into something less lethal; maybe it trips an alarm, or collapses a tunnel (further ahead, so no one is damaged), making the players take an alternative route, or even change the dynamic to reward the characters for success rather than punish for failure (more akin to replacing traps with puzzles to solve for extra loot and rewards).

If the players are having difficulty with combat, maybe try dumbing down and downsizing the enemies. Instead of three enemy combatants there is only one or two, instead of attacking the squishy casters, they go after the melee brute, etc.

Rather than asking the players what they dislike or why they aren't having fun, ask what they want to do and what they want to see more of. Help them become proactive in seeking out what they'd like to play, and then give the players real agency in designing or selecting an adventure fit for their tastes.

I wish the best of luck to you, it sounds like you will have a great group once you hammer out these details!

[JellyPooga]

If a dungeon delve is proving unsatisfactory for whatever reason, don't be afraid to fast-track it and play another adventure. Waving the magic wand and telling the players they're suddenly in a tavern is obviously not the way to go, but unless they have an in-character map of the place, they don't know that the boss isn't supposed to be around the next corner.

Aside from having the BBEG encounter earlier than planned, you can also use traps (mundane and magical) to block tunnels, transport the PCs and generally cut out large swathes of dungeon.

Having the PCs captured for the bad guy to gloat over is also an option; a fellow prisoner might have a way out he's been planning, allowing them to escape and deal with the bad guy later.

Give them an NPC to rescue; someone important to the NPCs they know from town, perhaps. Someone they need to escort out of the dungeon sooner rather than later.

Literally give them a brick wall. If they want to hit their head against it, fine, but if they aren't enjoying the adventure, they should be glad to turn around and tackle the dungeon at a later date, if at all.

If nothing else, take off and nuke the site from orbit...it's the only way to be sure. Sometimes a campaign just doesn't work out. TPKs can be a valuable learning experience for GMs and PCs alike. Don't be afraid to let it happen and learn how to avoid them in the future. You can even use the fallout from their failure to set up the next game; just be sure to tell your players what's going on after the fact. Give them a story and segue into the next campaign, letting them design their new characters to suit it. If a player is particularly attached to their character, the "lone survivor" is a powerful storytelling tool...just look at Ripley from Alien/s.

[Laserlight]

I can see where the players might not make much distinction between "the DM is out to get us" and "the module (which the DM chose) is out to get us."

If you go into a campaign knowing it's that sort of dungeon crawl and this week you're bringing Fighter #5, who just happens to be identical to his late, lamented cousin Fighter #4 who died last week, then it can be fun. But if you're expecting a role-playing game, with reasonable motivations and character growth and all that, then no. (And if you start a RPG and then the DM switches to "TPKs are Fun!" mode for a session, that really sucks).

If you want to salvage the module, then a) tell your players explicitly that you have heard their pleas, don't count on them figuring it out; b) tone down most of the traps to non-lethal or non-damaging. "You step on the trigger stone and a scythe blade swing out from the wall....very, very slowly. If you're still standing there in two rounds, you'll need to make a DEX5 to avoid it." "You hear a tripwire break and a nozzle pokes out from the wall. A small amount of firespray comes at you--roll DC12 to avoid 1d6 damage. Then the flame chokes off and you can tell the nozzle is clogged with some tarry black goop."

[Hudsonian]

Or just double or triple the xp for a while and let your PC's get a little more power under their belt. Then the encounters won't be so deadly.

[Thorin Ironfist]

If you want to salvage the module, then a) tell your players explicitly that you have heard their pleas, don't count on them figuring it out; b) tone down most of the traps to non-lethal or non-damaging. "You step on the trigger stone and a scythe blade swing out from the wall....very, very slowly. If you're still standing there in two rounds, you'll need to make a DEX5 to avoid it." "You hear a tripwire break and a nozzle pokes out from the wall. A small amount of firespray comes at you--roll DC12 to avoid 1d6 damage. Then the flame chokes off and you can tell the nozzle is clogged with some tarry black goop."

I like this and I think the players would too. :smallbiggrin: However, for their level, most of the traps deal negligible damage anyway. I think what gets them is the part where they needed a living and willing sacrifice. Albeit their sacrifice was a goblin, they still were quite displeased. Could have taken that out though...



Rather than asking the players what they dislike or why they aren't having fun, ask what they want to do and what they want to see more of. Help them become proactive in seeking out what they'd like to play, and then give the players real agency in designing or selecting an adventure fit for their tastes.

I wish the best of luck to you, it sounds like you will have a great group once you hammer out these details!

Sounds like a good plan. I wasn't getting much out of asking them what they don't like about it (their answer was "everything.") That idea sounds good to me!

I think what I'll do is just handwave in a little teleporter after a puzzle, then ask what they want more of and put that into a little thing I found. Does Wheelhouse Prison sound like a good way to add things they may want?
It's a small little setting thing. The characters can choose what they want to do involving the prison, and if the DM wishes, there are other options that can fit into pretty much any situation. They can break out, break in, bribe guards to release people, find an item that has been confiscated, etc.

Is there any time some DM magic is good to just "You step through the doorway and are immediately teleported outside" or "You notice your coinpurse seems a bit heavier. Maybe you want to bribe him with that extra 500 gp?"

[ruy343]

Honestly, Mines of Madness and Tomb of Horrors need to be understood by both parties before you begin: perhaps saying something along the lines of "this module is near-impossible, so you need to roll up characters you're not attached to before we play," could have helped.

If they're not enjoying it, perhaps pick up Curse of Strahd and have a trap that sucks the characters unwittingly into Barovia...? That's a pretty classic beginning for the Ravenloft campaigns as it is...

[Laserlight]

Sounds like a good plan. I wasn't getting much out of asking them what they don't like about it (their answer was "everything.") ...(snip) then ask what they want more of

If you just ask "what do you want more of?" you're probably not going to get useful answers, because it's too broad. You get the "Where do you want to go for dinner/I dunno" effect. So:
a) ask "what encounters did you enjoy the most?" "What did you like about that encounter?"
b) offer them a menu of choices. "Do you want more combat, more social encounters, more exploration?" "More time in the city or out in the wilds?" "Okay, you want more battles. Short, quick ones where you can do several in one session, or do you like an extended fight that lasts most of the session?"

If your players are like mine, they like a) tough fights that have at least a couple of them worried about their HP b) recurring monster--they can defeat him but he doesn't stay dead and a few weeks later he comes back after them c) active terrain that forces them to move around instead of just "I charge the boss and spend the rest of the fight standing there and using my usual attack over and over" d) some social plotting and intrigue