Optimize this weapon 1: Lasso from BOED p34

[daremetoidareyo]

Here is the text for the beast

Lasso: A lasso is an entangling weapon that deals no damage,
but it entangles only parts of an opponent’s body. When you use
a lasso to entangle your opponent’s arms, you make a ranged
touch attack against your target. A lasso’s maximum range is 30
feet. If you hit, the target is partially entangled, taking a –2 on
attack rolls and a –4 penalty on effective Dexterity. The creature’s
speed is not reduced, and it can still charge or run, but if
you control the trailing rope by succeeding at an opposed
Strength check while holding it, the lassoed creature can only
move within the limits that the rope allows. If the lassoed creature
attempts to cast a spell, it must succeed on a DC 15 Concentration
check or be unable to cast the spell.
The lassoed creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist
check as a full-round action. The lasso has 2 hp and can be
broken with a DC 23 Strength check—also a full-round action.
Alternatively, you can use a lasso to make trip attacks. If you
are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the lasso
to avoid being tripped.

Assume that you can add templates, materials and enchantments to it like a standard weapon.

What is effective dexterity? If I drop you to or below effective dexterity of zero, are you paralyzed?

[mabriss lethe]

quick and dirty op:
Do as little as possible: This doesn't build the biggest beast, but it gives the biggest bang for the buck.
- Have full(ish) BAB and ignore the EWP feat entirely. Much like a net, it operates as a touch attack. You can eat the proficiency penalty easily
- treat them as semi-disposable items. You don't need to spend a fortune on them, because they are a part of a "bag of tricks." Get your dex debuff from them and carry on with the encounter. If you can retrieve it at the end of combat, fantastic. If not, well, you've got half a dozen more where that came from.
- Contact poisons are your friends. If the situation warrants it, use it as a convenient vector to stack an additional debuff. It won't work with everything, but it's an optional add-on.
-Ghost touch: If you do branch into magic this is a good bet, since it lets you wrangle wraiths and other incorporeal beasties, which, since they usually rely on strength Dex (I was in a hurry, didn't properly edit), can really ruin their day. I want to say you can grab temporary GT from an alchemical item, but I don't recall what it's called or where it showed up.

[Fouredged Sword]

I second the "Keep cheap disposable debuff weapon" strat. It's good for a character with quickdraw.

Another odd idea would be to enchant it with a damaging enchantment then use it on a rogue to get elemental damage touch attack sneak attacks. I think you can get some really odd elemental effects added onto a weapon.

[SangoProduction]

Can multiple lassos stack? Logically, they can, because if you are more tied up, you are less mobile than if you are less tied up, and I think stacking rules mention magic of the same source...but I'm not sure.

[mabriss lethe]

Can multiple lassos stack? Logically, they can, because if you are more tied up, you are less mobile than if you are less tied up, and I think stacking rules mention magic of the same source...but I'm not sure.

the general rules say "No" since multiple bonus/penalties from the same source don't stack. However you can entangle them with one lasso and then trip with another, since that would be different effects.

[SangoProduction]

Also, this thread has a couple of optimizations.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4200.0

[Coidzor]

Can multiple lassos stack? Logically, they can, because if you are more tied up, you are less mobile than if you are less tied up, and I think stacking rules mention magic of the same source...but I'm not sure.

If you have lassos with different stuff on them, they'll still attach, I'd say, but I don't think you can give the same condition more times from the same source while it's ongoing. A lasso and a net combo better than two lassos.

I believe you can use 3 lassos where the controlling ropes are held onto and controlled in order to keep a creature immobile in one space. Good use for some high strength guys who don't have the HP or HD in order to be in the melee themselves, and possibly longer ropes for the lassos, in order to take down a melee monster using ranged attacks.

Heck, try having 6 kobolds lasso the party meatshield and see how many strength checks it takes them to get beaten by rolling poorly.


I second the "Keep cheap disposable debuff weapon" strat. It's good for a character with quickdraw.

Another odd idea would be to enchant it with a damaging enchantment then use it on a rogue to get elemental damage touch attack sneak attacks. I think you can get some really odd elemental effects added onto a weapon.

Now there's an idea. Make it out of Aurum or whatever the metal from BoED is that heals and doesn't care about being sundered, at least in a permanent sense. In order to protect the investment made in making them magic lassos, since IIRC, you don't get the ammunition discount on making them magical weapons.

[Venger]

I made a build centered around this back when we did justiciar in iron chef. part 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13941230&postcount=158) and part 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13941238&postcount=159)

the hog tie ability adds a lot of use to the lasso

[Jowgen]

Wearing a Ghost Shroud (MIC p. 104) will net Ghost touch on all Lassos used.

Also, I once made a Touch of Golden Ice character who used a Lasso as a "finisher" on enemies who's dex he'd gotten down far enough for the lasso to bring it to 0.

[daremetoidareyo]

Let's assume multiple lassos stack. I'm throwing a set of ridiculously optimized adventurers designed to draw out combat for a low level bbeg at the party. I have a disarmiologist and I'm designing my thrikreen lasso expert now. And... if the party wants to use crazy lasso tactics on me, I welcome their adaptability (considering the wonky RAW I'm allowing them, I doubt they are going to use anything but their main schticks). Then, I'll dump all these resources in my next use rope skill guide.

[Coidzor]

Sounds like an opportunity for a great-cleaving sunderer to vindicate themselves.

[Troacctid]

Penalties from the same source definitively don't stack.

penalty: A negative modifier to a die roll. Penalties do not usually have a type, and always stack with other penalties (except those from the same source) unless otherwise stated.
However, multiple lassos do stack in that an enemy would need multiple Concentration checks to cast a spell, multiple opposed Strength checks to move outside the limits of the ropes, and multiple Escape Artist or Strength checks to fully free themselves. Also, you can combine the lasso with a net to get the same penalty from two different sources, which will stack.

[Coidzor]

Penalties from the same source definitively don't stack.

However, multiple lassos do stack in that an enemy would need multiple Concentration checks to cast a spell, multiple opposed Strength checks to move outside the limits of the ropes, and multiple Escape Artist or Strength checks to fully free themselves. Also, you can combine the lasso with a net to get the same penalty from two different sources, which will stack.

IIRC, net is entangled and lasso is partially entangled, so they even have different names, sorta.

[IcarusWulfe]

-Ghost touch: If you do branch into magic this is a good bet, since it lets you wrangle wraiths and other incorporeal beasties, which, since they usually rely on strength, can really ruin their day. I want to say you can grab temporary GT from an alchemical item, but I don't recall what it's called or where it showed up.

*Begins humming Ghostbusters theme

[Rijan_Sai]

And here I was thinking there must be some way to add the effects of a Zone of Truth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/zoneOfTruth.htm) (limited to being restrained by the lasso) along with Lesser Geas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasLesser.htm)

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server4900/364bb/products/135868/images/98668/251012__94020.1342530497.380.500.jpg?c=2

[Darrin]

The lasso's biggest weakness is it's made of rope. As per the weapon description, it has only 2 HP. That means if you get hit by a lasso, you have to try really hard not to get out of it by just making an attack roll against it. Any creature with at least Str 12 can destroy the lasso even with a minimum damage roll. And yes, even if you don't have any bladed weapons handy, you can punch a lasso to death with your fist, but you may have to take a -4 penalty on your attack roll to do lethal damage.

Technically, this is a Sunder attempt, so there's an AoO provoked (likely ignored) and an opposed attack roll. There's no indication of whether the lasso is two-handed, one-handed, or light, but I can't imagine exactly how you hold onto the lasso and throw it at the same time, so we'll say it counts as a two-handed weapon (+4 bonus for the lassoist). This may put the odds a bit into the lassoist's favor, although it's probably more likely that the lassoist is trying to snare something that is much larger and stronger than the lassoist.

If the DM opts not to treat the attack as a sunder attempt, then the odds are heavily weighted towards the... entanglist? ...entanglee? ...the entangled creature. Attacking the rope as a medium-sized object means it has an AC of 3: 10 - 5 (no Dex score) - 2 (object). No hardness for ordinary rope, so any attack that does at least 2 HP breaks it.

So obviously we need to get some better rope. If we upgrade to silk rope, then that has a whole whopping 4 HP. But hoopy froods know they should visit their short-statured friends for Earthsilk Rope (Races of Stone p. 160): hardness 1, 10 HP. That's much more likely to survive at least one attack. It's too bad it's made out of fungus instead of stone/metal, otherwise we could throw the Dwarfcraft template on top of that for more hardness/HP.

We can also look at other special materials. Coidzor has the right idea with Aurorum (+4000 GP, BoED), but that only lets us put the lasso back together after it's been broken. Better to start with Riverine (+6000 GP, Stormwrack) and never let it get broken at all. There's nothing in the description of riverine that says whether it can be made (woven?) into flexible fibers, but there's nothing that says it can't, so... going by the table, "Other Items" cost 2000 GP per pound.

There are some special materials that can do damage, although again, as with riverine, it's not clear if they can be made into flexible fibers or rope. Rimefire Ice (+750 GP, Frostburn) does 1 [cold] damage to any creature that touches it, and presumably that includes someone entangled with a lasso. Stygian Ice (+6000 GP, same book) does 1d6 [cold] damage, but the wielder takes the damage as well (you'll want to get some cold resistance from somewhere).

There are several special materials in Magic of Faerun that do various energy damage for 1500 GP, but it's not likely that they can be used for a non-metallic weapon. Still... metal wire is a thing, right? Darksteel = +1 electricity damage, Dlarum = +1 cold damage, Fever Iron = +1 fire damage, and Hizagkuur = +1 electricity and +1 fire damage. You may have get into an argument over whether adding a damage modifier to a weapon with no damage listed has any effect, or whether the +1 damage is considered separately from the non-existent weapon damage.

Templates... well, as mentioned previously, Dwarfcraft doesn't work. There are several templates in DMGII, and these could be added... Fireshaped does +1 damage against cold creatures, Githcraft does +1 damage against psionic creatures, Gloryborn does +1 damage on a charge attack, Hellforged does +1 damage against a flanked target, and Pitspawned gets +2 on rolls to confirm criticals.

Speaking of criticals... a lasso critical may not do any damage, but it may trigger enhancements that activate on a crit. Enfeebling (+1 enhancement, BoED) springs to mind, and Prismatic Burst (+30000 GP, MIC) could also be... colorful! (Although if you want to be pedantic... the weapon table does not list a critical for the lasso, so by RAW you may not even get a roll even on a natural 20.)

Other enhancements... well, the various Surges from DMGII might be cheap enough to consider putting them on a weapon that can be broken with a Strength check (2000 GP each). Stunning Surge (2000 GP, DMGII) would be ideal, as a stunned opponent can't attempt to break/sunder the lasso. I'm also fond of Torturous (+1 enhancement, Ghostwalk): Fort save DC 12 vs 1 round of stun, or you can upgrade it to DC 17 by increasing the enhancement to +2. Bloodstone (+1 enhancement, MIC) could be good for the discerning gish. Strength-Sapping (+2 enhancement, BoVD) might be worth a look, but it's going to be a hard sell... if the lasso manages to do any damage (via special material or a template), the target has to make a Fort save DC 15 or become exhausted. The exhausted condition incurs a -6 penalty to Str and Dex, so an entangled exhausted creature has a -10 Dex penalty. Something else that might be able to add some damage...

Augment Crystals can be attached to a lasso, although spending money to enchant a weapon that can be destroyed via a Str check is a somewhat dubious endeavor. The Crsytal of Adamant Weaponry can increase the hardness of the lasso, but D&D favors the bold... we'd love to hook up a Crystal of Energy Assault for some energy damage. Sadly, it looks like RAW is against us here, as these crystals add a bonus to a "weapon's damage", and the lasso's damage is "-" rather than "0". Crystal of Return could have some odd interactions... Quickdraw, obviously, to get the lasso out quickly, but the Lesser version might be used as a "grappling hook": lasso a particular creature/object, drop the lasso as a free action, and then "command" the lasso + ensnared object to return to your hand as a move action. (Scorpion's attack from Mortal Kombat? Hmm.) Demolition Crystal... actually, 1d6 damage against constructs sounds kinda nifty! Truedeath Crystal does something similar with undead, but the Lesser version includes the Ghost Touch property. Fiendslayer Crystal deals an extra 1d6 damage against evil outsiders, and once they are "grasping" it, they get a negative level, so that's kind of useful. Revelation Crystal... not so inspiring. Witchlight Reservoir might be another way to add damage to a lasso attack, and although it takes 8 hours of prep work to "load" the effect, you get five uses out of it. I think the stand-out here, though, is Phoenix Ash Threat, because it damages your opponent every time you hit them with the lasso. Well, ok, it damages them the next round, but hey, at least it's still damage.

Spell Storing or Glyph Seal would probably be better, though, with the latter preferred because if the lasso gets broken/sundered/destroyed, you can pick up the Glyph Seal and reattach it elsewhere. Ideally, you want a spell effect that does Dex damage or fatigue/exhaustion. The much despised shivering touch is likely to be best for Spell Storing, and the lesser shivering touch works well with the Glyph Seal. Actually, ray of clumsiness (Spell Compendium) might be better than lesser shivering touch. Mummify (Frostburn) with a Greater Glyph Seal would be loads of fun: if your target makes the Fort save vs. death, they take 6d6 damage and are dehydrated (fatigued).

Hmm. I'll have to dig around for more spells that do Dex damage or fatigue/dehydration.

Oh... if this is going to be a series, I have a suggestion for the next weapon: Bola Flail from Ghostwalk. It's like a whip/nunchaku/mancatcher all rolled up into one weapon. If you're a bard that was born in Salkiria, you're automatically proficient in it.

After that: Caber from Masters of the Wild.

[Troacctid]

You can't break a rope with bludgeoning damage. I think there's an example to that effect in the rules about damaging objects.

Spell Storing requires the weapon to deal damage, so it doesn't work. However, some spell channeling abilities might work, depending on their wording.

[Darrin]

You can't break a rope with bludgeoning damage. I think there's an example to that effect in the rules about damaging objects.


Citation, please? I'm not seeing any examples like that in the PHB pages 165-167.



Spell Storing requires the weapon to deal damage, so it doesn't work. However, some spell channeling abilities might work, depending on their wording.

Well, Crystal of Energy Assault can do the damage, although by RAW that's going to be a hard sell with some DMs.

Hmm... I'll have to look at the spell channeling. Of course, channel spell + aquatic escape = herring on a string!

[Troacctid]

Crystal of Energy Assault also requires you to deal damage in order to deal the extra damage.

EDIT: "The DM may determine that certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, you may have a hard time chopping down a door by shooting arrows at it or cutting a robe with a club." I guess they say "robe" in this edition, so maybe I'm mixing it up with 5e where it says "rope" instead, but it's basically the same idea.

[Darrin]

I've been digging around for class abilities that can be used with a lasso and... not... finding... much...

Unlike the whip, the lasso is a ranged weapon, so none of the spell channeling classes work (melee only). Of the ranged classes... Master Thrower's "Two with One Blow" might be interesting, as you can lasso two creatures together, but the rest of the Thrown Weapon Tricks are not so useful. Lasso isn't a javelin so Stormlord is no good. I thought Shadowsmith might be good, make your own lassos out of shadows, but you can't create flexible materials like rope.

If you can add "extra damage" onto a weapon that does no damage... Divine Mind has an energy mantle that adds +1 energy damage (your choice) to all your attacks. Dragonfire Inspiration bard would be much better at this, but I don't see why you'd use a lasso when whip proficiency is just sitting right there begging to be used. There are some Lurk augments that might be interesting: Stunning Attack, Mental Assault, Stygian Weapon, and so forth... but I'm really not a big fan of the limited uses per day.

Guh. Bupkis.

[Coidzor]

Well, if you can get it to do damage, it's cheaper than Sheak Attack with wands or chucking acid flasks and still targets Touch AC.

[daremetoidareyo]

You can make a lasso with a use rope check DC 15, (a knot that slides).

Desmodu cable (Deep Horizon adventure p.31) is metal, and you can use it for use rope checks.


Cable: This metal cable is thinner, stronger, and
lighter than even silk rope. It is too thin for most creatures
to climb easily (Climb DC 20), but desmodus can
shinny up a cable automatically at their normal climb
speed. The cable has a snap ring at each end so it can be
quickly attached to or detached from a piton, spike, grappling
hook, or other item without a Use Rope check.
The cable has 10 hit points and hardness 5. It can be
burst with a successful Strength check (DC 32). It is
stiff, however, and imposes a –2 circumstance penalty
on Use Rope checks.
Cost: 25 gp; Weight: 2 lb.

Cablespool: This gadget carries 100 feet of cable in an
enclosed reel. The reel is spring-wound and can pull in
all 100 feet of cable in 1 round, pulling with a Strength
score of 16. It can be set to automatically reel or unreel
the cable as the user climbs, or act as a brake, allowing
the user to jump down 100 feet without harm.
Cost: 125 gp (175 with cable); Weight: 2 lb. (6 lb.
with cable).

Is there any way to make the spool out of adamantium, therefor enchant it, turn it into an itelligent magic item, with intelligent magic items being treated as constructs, and thereby making it a suitable candidate for strength buffs?

[Coidzor]

If you can get the cost for making a lasso out of cable, then it's just +3000 gp to make it adamantine as a weapon.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you can make a lasso with a DC 15 Use Rope Check, can't you just take a normal length of Desmodu Cable, make your DC 17 check, and voila?

You can only make armour and weapons from Adamantine but other materials might be fine options for the cable.

[daremetoidareyo]

Be a soulknife 5/warblade1 with dwarven urgrosh mindblade feat at 6th level. Use warblades aptitude to put lasso on your list of mindblade shapes...and then your mindblade can stack with your aurorum lasso.