Can the barbarian make this jump

[Master O'Laughs]

During session, a lvl 5 barbarian with 20 STR attempts to jump 25 ft horizontally to cross a space between buildings. he rolls a 19 on an athletics check. Would that typically be enough to make it? At session the barbarian missed and fell 20 ft taking some falling damage.

Reason I ask is because the rules state with a 10 ft running start (which he had) he can jump his strength score (20 ft) no problem. The atheltics skill makes it seem like it allows you to jump further than that. Is this correct? or are the barbarians limits hard capped to the STR score max of 20 ft?

DM hinted at the fact he had set the DC at like 21 or 22. Kinda felt like he just didn't want the barb to make the jump.

[tieren]

Nobody can jump farther than their remaining movement will allow. If his movement rate was 30' then no roll should have allowed him to both run 10' and jump more than 20'.

[BiPolar]

This is definitely in the range of DM Fiat, but Chapter 8 of the PHB specifically addresses Long Jumping:


When you make a long jump, you cover a number of feet up to your Strength score if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing long jump, you can leap only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement. This rule assumes that the height of your jump doesn’t matter, such as a jump across a stream or chasm. At your DM’s option, you must succeed on aDC 10 Strength (Athletics) check to clear a low obstacle (no taller than a quarter of the jump’s distance), such as a hedge or low wall. Otherwise, you hit it. When you land in difficult terrain, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity (Acrobatics) check to land on your feet. Otherwise, you land prone.

Based on the RAW, if he had 10' to run, he could jump the remaining movement without an issue. However, it sounds like the distance was beyond his movement. Rooftop jumping MAY constitute difficult terrain, in which case it's just a DC 10 acrobatics check to land safely vs prone.

[Flashy]

Nobody can jump farther than their remaining movement will allow. If his movement rate was 30' then no roll should have allowed him to both run 10' and jump more than 20'.

Unless he took the Dash action, which is sort of implicit in a running jump.

[tieren]

Unless he took the Dash action, which is sort of implicit in a running jump.

true, would need to know more context, I assumed it was a maneuver in the midst of a combat situation.

[Laserlight]

During session, a lvl 5 barbarian with 20 STR attempts to jump 25 ft horizontally to cross a space between buildings. he rolls a 19 on an athletics check. Would that typically be enough to make it? At session the barbarian missed and fell 20 ft taking some falling damage.

Reason I ask is because the rules state with a 10 ft running start (which he had) he can jump his strength score (20 ft) no problem. The atheltics skill makes it seem like it allows you to jump further than that. Is this correct? or are the barbarians limits hard capped to the STR score max of 20 ft?

DM hinted at the fact he had set the DC at like 21 or 22. Kinda felt like he just didn't want the barb to make the jump.


PHB 175 says you roll Athletics when "You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump." Your barb's standard jump was 20ft, so Athletics would apply...but I'm not aware of an official "you get this much distance per your Athletic check result" ruling. On the other hand, the world record longjump is less than 30ft, and that guy wasn't wearing armor, backback, shield and axe.

TL;DR: it's a DM ruling.

[Spellbreaker26]

I would let him. An extra five feet for rolling a nineteen seems fair to me.

[BiPolar]

PHB 175 says you roll Athletics when "You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump." Your barb's standard jump was 20ft, so Athletics would apply...but I'm not aware of an official "you get this much distance per your Athletic check result" ruling. On the other hand, the world record longjump is less than 30ft, and that guy wasn't wearing armor, backback, shield and axe.

TL;DR: it's a DM ruling.

Page 182 says otherwise, it does say what you can do. Unusually long is beyond your movement. This was within his movement (with a dash). Even if you don't use the dash, it's a small distance more that a 19 athletics would still likely cover.

And the world record was not done by a D&D hero. Get your real life out of my fantasy! :smallbiggrin:

[Spellbreaker26]

Page 182 says otherwise, it does say what you can do. Unusually long is beyond your movement. This was within his movement (with a dash). Even if you don't use the dash, it's a small distance more that a 19 athletics would still likely cover.

And the world record was not done by a D&D hero. Get your real life out of my fantasy! :smallbiggrin:

Plus, no real life person has 20 Strength. 18 is probably Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Coffee_Dragon]

This thread should have been called "Should this barbarian fall?"

I don't think DC 20 would have been outside of the realm of reasonableness. That's essentially saying "a high-level character should not count on consistently expanding their 'safe' jumping distance by 5 feet". DC 15 would have been on the other side of that same realm of reasonableness, if you want more heroic jumpings, and why not.

If he went a lot above 20, then it might be correct that he didn't want the barbarian to make the jump, or that he's wary of setting a precedent for going above safe jump distances. But it's a call made during play and with reference to a situation we don't have in full, so we can't sit here in a forum and say, "hm, DC 17.5 would have been correct, yes".

[BiPolar]

This thread should have been called "Should this barbarian fall?"

I don't think DC 20 would have been outside of the realm of reasonableness. That's essentially saying "a high-level character should not count on consistently expanding their 'safe' jumping distance by 5 feet". DC 15 would have been on the other side of that same realm of reasonableness, if you want more heroic jumpings, and why not.

If he went a lot above 20, then it might be correct that he didn't want the barbarian to make the jump, or that he's wary of setting a precedent for going above safe jump distances. But it's a call made during play and with reference to a situation we don't have in full, so we can't sit here in a forum and say, "hm, DC 17.5 would have been correct, yes".

If you can easily clear 20', I don't think it's a DC 20 to clear 25'. You're saying it's Hard to jump an additional 5' beyond what you can do without any DC check. It's still up the DM, but it seems excessive to me to just to go an extra 5', especially if he has an opportunity to Dash and double his movement (which if there is room, there should be.)

[PloxBox]

Well, I would assume that the character in question was pure barbarian (As you didn't mention any multi-classing). His movement speed should have been at least 35ft (More likely 40ft) because of the Barbarians improved movement at 5th level. So your barbarian ally should have been able to clear that jump without a need for an Athletics roll (At least, RAW I can't see anything that states players need to roll to jump.).

[BiPolar]

Well, I would assume that the character in question was pure barbarian (As you didn't mention any multi-classing). His movement speed should have been at least 35ft (More likely 40ft) because of the Barbarians improved movement at 5th level. So your barbarian ally should have been able to clear that jump without a need for an Athletics roll (At least, RAW I can't see anything that states players need to roll to jump.).

Unfortunately, the rules for long jumping are based on STR score, not movement.

[Coffee_Dragon]

If you can easily clear 20', I don't think it's a DC 20 to clear 25'. You're saying it's Hard to jump an additional 5' beyond what you can do without any DC check. It's still up the DM, but it seems excessive to me to just to go an extra 5', especially if he has an opportunity to Dash and double his movement (which if there is room, there should be.)

It just depends on how you see it. In real world long jumping, athletes are trying to squeeze out inches, they probably don't have a regular variability of anything close to five feet. With armour, backback, shield and axe, and jumping between roofs, that variability would be higher, but how high? As I said I think 15 is perfectly reasonable but I won't say that a DM who made it 20 or even more during some actual play situation is necessarily making a bad call.


At least, RAW I can't see anything that states players need to roll to jump.

PHB 182 gives the standard jump distances, PHB 175 says to roll for jumping "an unusually long distance".

[Hudsonian]

An athletics roll of 19 on a level 5 barbarian with 20 str means that your natural roll was 19 - 3 - 5 = 11

so on an almost exactly average roll you are disappointed that your barbarian missed a jump that is outside of average for many level 10 barbarians?

you had 48% chance of jumping from one side of a street to the other evil knevil style and rolled poorly. That's not bad in my opinion.

[Tanarii]

I've had to make this judgement call for two specific circumstances somewhat recently.

The first one actually happens all the damn time, not just a one off: Str 8 character, trained in athletics, jumping 10 ft. That's 2ft of extra movement, or +25%.

The second one was, IIRC, something like a Str 16 Athletics 1st level character wanting to jump 20ft. (Probably not that exact but I do recall it in being in the range of 20-25% extra needed.)

I ruled both as DC 15. If it were real life and not a game, I'd probably make it harder to push an extra 20% jump. But for a game that traditionally has 10ft wide pits, I don't mind giving a weak but trained jumper about a 50/50 to shot to make it, if they're willing to take that risk failing to squeak out the extra distance. OTOH I don't want to make it too much easier because they chose to dump Str the extra 2 pts.

[RulesJD]

During session, a lvl 5 barbarian with 20 STR attempts to jump 25 ft horizontally to cross a space between buildings. he rolls a 19 on an athletics check. Would that typically be enough to make it? At session the barbarian missed and fell 20 ft taking some falling damage.

Reason I ask is because the rules state with a 10 ft running start (which he had) he can jump his strength score (20 ft) no problem. The atheltics skill makes it seem like it allows you to jump further than that. Is this correct? or are the barbarians limits hard capped to the STR score max of 20 ft?

DM hinted at the fact he had set the DC at like 21 or 22. Kinda felt like he just didn't want the barb to make the jump.

Level 5 with 20 Str is +8 to an Athletics skill.

DC 21/22 isn't out of the realm of possibility.

[denthor]

Is the barbarian medium-sized?

Does he still have the extra 10 feet of movement 40 feet per round or does his equipment bring him down to 30 feet per round? Was movement traded out for something else?

If running jump and 40 foot movement rate per round. He makes the leap.

Is 19 an adjusted roll or was it what came up on d20?

Was he raging at the time of the leap?

[ad_hoc]

I would have made it DC 15.

[Ruslan]

If he is very strong AND rolled high, I would just let him make the jump. I mean, what is the point of being very strong AND rolling high on the die if the DM won't let you achieve a strength-related feat? Jumping 25' is not even outside the guy-in-the-gym realm of possibility (a good college-level athlete can jump 25').

[Coffee_Dragon]

If he is very strong AND rolled high, I would just let him make the jump. I mean, what is the point of being very strong AND rolling high on the die if the DM won't let you achieve a strength-related feat?

If I'd set a DC, I wouldn't let him make the jump unless he achieved that DC. "Roll what your DM considers high and you succeed" doesn't sound like a great skill resolution system.


Jumping 25' is not even outside the guy-in-the-gym realm of possibility (a good college-level athlete can jump 25').

With gear, between roofs?

[Ruslan]

If I'd set a DC, I wouldn't let him make the jump unless he achieved that DC. "Roll what your DM considers high and you succeed" doesn't sound like a great skill resolution system.
Setting a DC is great. The DM should not, however, set a DC that even a strong PC on a high roll cannot achieve. This is not fair DMing, this would be putting a middle finger to the PCs.

"I have +5 for Strength and I rolled 19, for a total of 24."
"Too bad, I was thinking 25."

Assuming the DM is not unreasonable, and a PC is not trying anything completely out there ("I throw this 100 ton boulder!"), a STR 20 character who rolled 19 on the die should achieve any DC the DM could assign.

The point is, if a guy-in-the-gym can do it, denying a supposedly-heroic PC even a chance to do it is unreasonable.

[BiPolar]

I really don't like bringing real life into this, but if the world record is 30' for a normal human, a level 5 adventurer with 20 strength and room to run should clear 25' easily. Setting DC accordingly to 10 and 15 at the most. DC 20 (difficult) might be twice what they could do normally, or 40'.

[bid]

Unless he took the Dash action, which is sort of implicit in a running jump.
Which could be somewhat cancelled if it is difficult terrain. Not exactly, since the jumped distance isn't affected. A running jump can a 5-10' to dashing over difficult terrain.

[Master O'Laughs]

Wow, thanks for all the responses. Didn't think this would spawn so much.

In my head it would have been a DC 15, but good to know a lot of you think DC 20. The DM is a bit strict which led to a DC of 21 or 22. I realized after if he had gotten help it would have given him advantage which would have increased his chances.

The character is a Half-Orc Bear Barbarian 5, he does have increased movement. He was wearing a haversack which held most of his items. It felt slightly punishing since the monk already made it across using the method the DM wanted us to use (there was a pole halfway across requiring an acrobatics check). Barb wanted to show feats of STR (he also has 7 INT) and simply jump across. I viewed it as it didn't matter anyways so why not let him succeed.

Long story short sounds like DM could have a little bit more flexible but for how he runs thing it still would have been a failure at DC 20.

Thanks for the input everyone!

[ad_hoc]

Wow, thanks for all the responses. Didn't think this would spawn so much.

In my head it would have been a DC 15, but good to know a lot of you think DC 20. The DM is a bit strict which led to a DC of 21 or 22. I realized after if he had gotten help it would have given him advantage which would have increased his chances.

The character is a Half-Orc Bear Barbarian 5, he does have increased movement. He was wearing a haversack which held most of his items. It felt slightly punishing since the monk already made it across using the method the DM wanted us to use (there was a pole halfway across requiring an acrobatics check). Barb wanted to show feats of STR (he also has 7 INT) and simply jump across. I viewed it as it didn't matter anyways so why not let him succeed.

Long story short sounds like DM could have a little bit more flexible but for how he runs thing it still would have been a failure at DC 20.

Thanks for the input everyone!

In that situation I would have just declared an automatic success and moved on with the game.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I really don't like bringing real life into this, but if the world record is 30' for a normal human, a level 5 adventurer with 20 strength and room to run should clear 25' easily. Setting DC accordingly to 10 and 15 at the most. DC 20 (difficult) might be twice what they could do normally, or 40'.

I think DC 10 could only make sense if you read the jumping rules to say, "Here's your absolute minimum, it only begins to get a little difficult after that." I read them more to say, "Here's how long we're going to allow you to jump, in gear, consistently, in non-optimal conditions, while being chased by vampiric wallabies, without expecting to have to roll, and that's pretty heroic. Plus! we're not closing the door on jumping even further, check with your DM!"


I realized after if he had gotten help it would have given him advantage which would have increased his chances.

I wouldn't say a long jump is the type of individual-efforts-are-cumulative action help applies to.


the method the DM wanted us to use (there was a pole halfway across requiring an acrobatics check).

Huh? You jump to the pole... then you're on a pole? Or was it some rubber pole that swung over and allowed you to just step off on the other side?

[BiPolar]

I think DC 10 could only make sense if you read the jumping rules to say, "Here's your absolute minimum, it only begins to get a little difficult after that." I read them more to say, "Here's how long we're going to allow you to jump, in gear, consistently, in non-optimal conditions, while being chased by vampiric wallabies, without expecting to have to roll, and that's pretty heroic. Plus! we're not closing the door on jumping even further, check with your DM!"

Hear hear!

[Sigreid]

Honestly it just sounds to me like your DM was ticked that it wasn't done his way so he chose not to let the barbarian be awesome. RAW, that shouldn't have even been a roll unless there was some extenuating danger we don't know about.

[Kane0]

This thread should have been called "Should this barbarian fall?"

Nobody's going to pay this? Fine, it made me chuckle.

Anyways, I'd have save DC = 5 + extra distance you need to cover than what your Str normally allows, so for an extra 10' that's DC 15.
You'd still have to have the movement available to do it of course.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I really don't like bringing real life into this, but if the world record is 30' for a normal human, a level 5 adventurer with 20 strength and room to run should clear 25' easily. Setting DC accordingly to 10 and 15 at the most. DC 20 (difficult) might be twice what they could do normally, or 40'.

I was gonna look up the same thing!

The answer of the world record being 30 feet is correct. I will guess 29 foot jumps are EXTRODINARY though. Like 100 people in our country of 300,000,000 can make it not carrying weaponry and equipment.

What is level 5......that is starting to get pretty experienced....how about.....

Does anyone have stats on what long jumps the average Marine can do rifle in hand?

[Addaran]

This thread should have been called "Should this barbarian fall?"
Nobody's going to pay this? Fine, it made me chuckle.



It was a great call, i just didn't have anything useful to say about the OP. :smallredface:

[Master O'Laughs]

Huh? You jump to the pole... then you're on a pole? Or was it some rubber pole that swung over and allowed you to just step off on the other side?

It was like a street light. The idea he wanted was you jump to the pole and immediately after that you jump to the other side. From there everyone used rope the monk was carrying to shimmy across.

[mephnick]

This is one of those things where the player was obviously attempting to showcase his character and there was little consequence for failure (other than a bit of damage), in those cases just let the guy do it if he gets anywhere close to your DC. I don't subscribe to the Rule of Fun all the time, but the DM doesn't need to be a party pooper either.

[Tanarii]

Anyways, I'd have save DC = 5 + extra distance you need to cover than what your Str normally allows, so for an extra 10' that's DC 15.
You'd still have to have the movement available to do it of course.DC 7 for a Str 8 character to jump a 10ft gap seems giving an easy out for people using Str as their dump stat.

(Of course, generally making gaps increments of 5ft is kinda lazy DMing on my part, but so be it.)

[Christian]

Nobody's going to pay this? Fine, it made me chuckle.

Anyways, I'd have save DC = 5 + extra distance you need to cover than what your Str normally allows, so for an extra 10' that's DC 15.
You'd still have to have the movement available to do it of course.

Brief analysis:



50% Successful
Jumping Distance
Level 1
Level 5
Level 9
Level 13
Level 17
Level 20


Rogue, Str 10
(proficiency & expertise in Athletics)
20
22
24
26
28
37


(with advantage)
24
26
28
30
32
37


Ranger, strength 15
(proficiency with Athletics)
25
26
27
28
29
29


(with advantage)
29
30
31
32
33
33


Barbarian, Strength 16
(proficiency in Athletics
27
31
35
36
37
41


(with advantage)
31
35
39
40
41
45



What jumps out at me from this ruling is that a typical 1st-level barbarian making a running long jump while raging can expect to break the real-life long-jump world record just over half the time. Possibly a bit generous ...

[Target is a 31' jump, 15' farther than his 16 Strength gives him. This is a DC 5+15 = 20 Strength (Athletics) check; he rolls at +5 (+3 for Strength, +2 for proficiency), and with advantage because he's raging. He'll need a 15 or higher on at least one of the two dice; this happens 1-(0.7*0.7) = 51% of the time.]

[Nifft]

During session, a lvl 5 barbarian with 20 STR attempts to jump 25 ft horizontally to cross a space between buildings. he rolls a 19 on an athletics check. Would that typically be enough to make it? At session the barbarian missed and fell 20 ft taking some falling damage.

Reason I ask is because the rules state with a 10 ft running start (which he had) he can jump his strength score (20 ft) no problem. The atheltics skill makes it seem like it allows you to jump further than that. Is this correct? or are the barbarians limits hard capped to the STR score max of 20 ft?

DM hinted at the fact he had set the DC at like 21 or 22. Kinda felt like he just didn't want the barb to make the jump.

I would let the Barbarian make the jump.

However, he would not be able to move more than 30 ft. in that turn. So, what would happen?

HANG TIME.

He would be in the air until his next action, at which point he would complete the jump and proceed to be awesome in a different way.

[Christian]

In that DM's position, I probably would have set a similar DC for the jump attempt. But IMO, he missed a great opportunity for a literal cliffhanger when the check missed by just a point or two.

"You shortcut the pole and try to jump all the way across in one mighty leap. Roll Strength (Athletics) to see if you make it ... 19? Ouch! You come up just a foot or so short. The wind rushes out of your lungs as the top of the wall slams painfully into your ribs. You take [roll] 5 points of bludgeoning damage; make a Strength saving throw to see if you manage to grab hold, or if you slide off the side and plummet to the ground below."

There's a zone between 'landed safely on your feet on the opposite side' and 'nope', and it sounds like your big buddy should have been in it.

"See? Didn't need monkey boy's help to cross."

"Um, yeah ... Do you need healing? That looked like it hurt."

"Don't know what you're talking about. That was exactly how I meant to do it."

[Malifice]

Just over 29' is the world record long jump FWIW.

[Cespenar]

Seriously, any DM worth its salt would allow a check the catch the ledge if the jump is short by ~5 feet.

[djreynolds]

Question 1, would he get advantage on the jump if was raging?

Could a thief/champion do it? If you would allow them to add their strength and dex modifiers together coupled with expertise in athletics? Would they get the additional 10ft from both second story work and remarkable athlete assuming max dex and strength?

[MOLOKH]

This sort of thing came up in the last campaign I ran. I houseruled based somewhat on 3.5E's jumping system, where the DC of the jump essentially equals the distance you're trying to cover in feet (DC10 for a 10ft jump, DC20 for a 20ft jump, etc.) Normal characters would only get to jump as far as their strength scores allowed. For characters proficient in Athletics, I'd let them roll and jump a distance in feet equal to their check result (or equal to their strength score, if they rolled bellow that.) It made sense with the way Athletics is described in the PHB and even with this ruling a 20th level Barbarian can only leap 33ft.

What really made it cimplicated was when the party found a Ring of Jumping.

[Lombra]

Personally I would rule the DC based on the whole distance of the jump, not only by how further you want to reach. Something like: "distance that you want to cover" × 4/5 rounded down. This way a 25 feet gap is a DC 20, which is reasonable in my opinion. If one fails, he goes as far as he shoud (strength score in case of a running long jump)

[Tanarii]

Brief analysis:



50% Successful
Jumping Distance
Level 1
Level 5
Level 9
Level 13
Level 17
Level 20


Rogue, Str 10
(proficiency & expertise in Athletics)
20
22
24
26
28
37


(with advantage)
24
26
28
30
32
37


Ranger, strength 15
(proficiency with Athletics)
25
26
27
28
29
29


(with advantage)
29
30
31
32
33
33


Barbarian, Strength 16
(proficiency in Athletics
27
31
35
36
37
41


(with advantage)
31
35
39
40
41
45



What jumps out at me from this ruling is that a typical 1st-level barbarian making a running long jump while raging can expect to break the real-life long-jump world record just over half the time. Possibly a bit generous ...

[Target is a 31' jump, 15' farther than his 16 Strength gives him. This is a DC 5+15 = 20 Strength (Athletics) check; he rolls at +5 (+3 for Strength, +2 for proficiency), and with advantage because he's raging. He'll need a 15 or higher on at least one of the two dice; this happens 1-(0.7*0.7) = 51% of the time.]
Yeah. If I were going to hard code it like that, I'd do something based of % extending the jump! since that's how I eyeball it anyway. Probably make it DC 10 + 2/extra 10% (round up)

So:
Str 8 jump 10ft: DC 16.
Str 10 jump 15ft: DC 20
Str 13 jump 15ft: DC 14
Str 15 jump 20ft: DC 16
Str 17 jump 20ft: DC 14
Str 20 jump 25ft: DC 16

Of course, this completely ignores the idea of diminishing returns, and also runs into super ridiculous Adv Athletics Str 20 jumps. So alternatively,+2/extra foot instead, ie based on Str 10. :)

[hamishspence]

Plus, no real life person has 20 Strength. 18 is probably Arnold Schwarzenegger.

That might depend on the edition, and on which of the various Str-related tasks one is doing. What's the maximum one can lift overhead with 18 Str in 5e, and what's the world record?

[Tanarii]

That might depend on the edition, and on which of the various Str-related tasks one is doing. What's the maximum one can lift overhead with 18 Str in 5e, and what's the world record?
That's not really an accurate way to measure an attribute. Str represents more than 'ability to lift weight overhead'.

For example, if you back calculate the supposed Str of a weight lifter, do you really expect him to also long jump his Str distance? The experts in those fields are hyper-specilized in just one aspect of what D&D Str abstractly represents and mechanically allows.

[BiPolar]

That's not really an accurate way to measure an attribute. Str represents more than 'ability to lift weight overhead'.

For example, if you back calculate the supposed Str of a weight lifter, do you really expect him to also long jump his Str distance? The experts in those fields are hyper-specilized in just one aspect of what D&D Str abstractly represents and mechanically allows.

And I"ll say it again, but a D&D Hero is far above the greatest athletes. It's why they're heroes.

[Zalabim]

There's a zone between 'landed safely on your feet on the opposite side' and 'nope', and it sounds like your big buddy should have been in it.


This applies to most skills, most ability checks, and is the most commonly overlooked missed opportunity. There's even a bit in the DMG about it, and the Jump skill in particular had that clause in 3.x about catching the ledge when falling short by only a certain number of feet. For a 20 Str barbarian jumping a 25' gap, I'd let him do it without rolling if he had his hands free and the ledge on the other side would let him pull himself up. If the ledge is uncertain, then roll athletics for that. Pen and paper and platforming.

[Spellbreaker26]

This applies to most skills, most ability checks, and is the most commonly overlooked missed opportunity. There's even a bit in the DMG about it, and the Jump skill in particular had that clause in 3.x about catching the ledge when falling short by only a certain number of feet. For a 20 Str barbarian jumping a 25' gap, I'd let him do it without rolling if he had his hands free and the ledge on the other side would let him pull himself up. If the ledge is uncertain, then roll athletics for that. Pen and paper and platforming.

You could even have him use his weapon to save himself by driving it into the earth to steady himself.

[Master O'Laughs]

This applies to most skills, most ability checks, and is the most commonly overlooked missed opportunity. There's even a bit in the DMG about it, and the Jump skill in particular had that clause in 3.x about catching the ledge when falling short by only a certain number of feet. For a 20 Str barbarian jumping a 25' gap, I'd let him do it without rolling if he had his hands free and the ledge on the other side would let him pull himself up. If the ledge is uncertain, then roll athletics for that. Pen and paper and platforming.

So full scope, he was jumping from a building to some elevated train tracks. At the edge of the tracks were spikes apparently. So he had to jump to clear the spikes, meaning he couldn't just jump to grab the ledge. He had to clear it completely.

It is partially why it sounds like DC 20 (especially with my DM) sounded fair to me. He still missed so he was partially impaled by spikes and fell 20 ft to the ground. The barbarian took like 20 damage in all. If he was raging it would have been less.

[BiPolar]

So full scope, he was jumping from a building to some elevated train tracks. At the edge of the tracks were spikes apparently. So he had to jump to clear the spikes, meaning he couldn't just jump to grab the ledge. He had to clear it completely.

It is partially why it sounds like DC 20 (especially with my DM) sounded fair to me. He still missed so he was partially impaled by spikes and fell 20 ft to the ground. The barbarian took like 20 damage in all. If he was raging it would have been less.

If that were the case, it should have been a Athletics DC to jump, and an Acrobatics DC to land (as the PHB suggests if landing in difficult terrain).

[hamishspence]

That's not really an accurate way to measure an attribute. Str represents more than 'ability to lift weight overhead'.

For example, if you back calculate the supposed Str of a weight lifter, do you really expect him to also long jump his Str distance? The experts in those fields are hyper-specilized in just one aspect of what D&D Str abstractly represents and mechanically allows.

Presumably he's put zero pts in Athletics?

It's true though that Str in games tends to be "more rounded" than just weightlifting ability. Still, it provides a starting point - at least for older editions.

[Tanarii]

So full scope, he was jumping from a building to some elevated train tracks. At the edge of the tracks were spikes apparently. So he had to jump to clear the spikes, meaning he couldn't just jump to grab the ledge. He had to clear it completely.

It is partially why it sounds like DC 20 (especially with my DM) sounded fair to me. He still missed so he was partially impaled by spikes and fell 20 ft to the ground. The barbarian took like 20 damage in all. If he was raging it would have been less.Main thing I can see he did wrong, at least by the sounds of it, is he didn't communicate the difficulty of the check beforehand.

[Master O'Laughs]

Main thing I can see he did wrong, at least by the sounds of it, is he didn't communicate the difficulty of the check beforehand.

Oh, DM's are supposed to tell you how difficult something is supposed to be before you do it? Our DM never does, hides rolls, and consistently expects us to pick up on subtle clues he thinks are obvious or at least the right questions to ask should be obvious.

He may say if it is hard, easy, nearly impossible but not actual values.

EDIT: He gave a vague idea of it being difficult but he is strict on rulings but does not know all the rules very well. I am typically the go to for if he isn't sure on something and I brought up the Barb could with a 10 ft running start make a 20 ft jump just based on STR.

[Mith]

I generally ask for an assessment of what my character thinks of an activity to take the bonuses into account.

[BiPolar]

Oh, DM's are supposed to tell you how difficult something is supposed to be before you do it? Our DM never does, hides rolls, and consistently expects us to pick up on subtle clues he thinks are obvious or at least the right questions to ask should be obvious.

He may say if it is hard, easy, nearly impossible but not actual values.

EDIT: He gave a vague idea of it being difficult but he is strict on rulings but does not know all the rules very well. I am typically the go to for if he isn't sure on something and I brought up the Barb could with a 10 ft running start make a 20 ft jump just based on STR.

That's definitely one style of DM-ing. Kind of annoying to hide everything, be a stickler, AND not know the rules well. That's a bad combo.

[Tanarii]

Oh, DM's are supposed to tell you how difficult something is supposed to be before you do it? Our DM never does, hides rolls, and consistently expects us to pick up on subtle clues he thinks are obvious or at least the right questions to ask should be obvious.That's the number one way to remove player agency, the ability to make informed in-character decisions, from the game. Yes, you can hide rolls. That's what passive checks are for, they're hidden rolls. But if the character can determine the difficulty, the player should be informed.


He may say if it is hard, easy, nearly impossible but not actual values.For sure. I wasn't suggesting that he give a DC number specifically. Just indicate in a way that to some degree translates into knowledge that the player can use to make an informed decision, provided the character can judge that information.


EDIT: He gave a vague idea of it being difficultSounds like he didn't necessarily do it wrong then. Sometimes players don't always get all the info the DM is trying to pass on about difficulty. Sometimes players don't care and are ready to make a decision about what to do anyway. :)

[Coffee_Dragon]

Oh, DM's are supposed to tell you how difficult something is supposed to be before you do it? Our DM never does, hides rolls, and consistently expects us to pick up on subtle clues he thinks are obvious or at least the right questions to ask should be obvious.

Exact DCs can be undisclosed if there's a reason the character wouldn't be able to accurately gauge the difficulty the action (e.g. if you're jumping between roofs on a moonless night while chased by roof-wallabies, you may not know or care how far it is to the other side). But generally, I think it's good practice to give DCs to reflect a character actually "being there" and to make sure DM and player aren't imagining a situation in wildly different ways.

(I'm also in favour of making DM rolls openly whenever there isn't a reason not to, and DMs should never feel certain that their awesome subtle clue wasn't missed simply because everyone was reaching for chips at the single moment it was mentioned.)

[Joe the Rat]

I tend to have a sliding success round my target DCs :fail, partial/nugget/yes+setback, success, with style, "here, have my notes" (our EK is mediocre in combat, but Nat20s history checks routienly). But I also rarely give them a hard number, just a broad sense of difficulty (easy (verges on "don't roll"), fair chance, decent odds, 1 in 4, difficult/obscure, and "You'll want to roll high for that one").

Extending leaps hasn't come up yet (It's like they're afraid of falling into pits full of as-yet-unmoving bones, acid pools, or jagged rocks from 10,000 feet), but if we treat the STR feet as their "easy max" - still takes effort, but it's a jump they make regularly, I'd probably start with a DC of 10+feet or 10+2xfeet, depending on how Hollywood I want to run the game.

If I'd done anything different, it would have been to give a Dex save to avoid the fall (but still eat spikes).

[Tanarii]

Exact DCs can be undisclosed if there's a reason the character wouldn't be able to accurately gauge the difficulty the action (e.g. if you're jumping between roofs on a moonless night while chased by roof-wallabies, you may not know or care how far it is to the other side). But generally, I think it's good practice to give DCs to reflect a character actually "being there" and to make sure DM and player aren't imagining a situation in wildly different ways.Yeah, that's exactly my feelings on it. If the character should have a guideline to measure the difficulty, then the player should have approximately the same guideline. I generally use Easy, Medium, Hard, Very Hard (per the DMG) meaning within 1 or 2 pts of that.


(I'm also in favour of making DM rolls openly whenever there isn't a reason not to, and DMs should never feel certain that their awesome subtle clue wasn't missed simply because everyone was reaching for chips at the single moment it was mentioned.)Absolutely agree on that. If a DM wants to keep a check being made secret, there's a function for that: passive checks. That's what they're for.