Hit Point Ranges for Dragons

[VoxRationis]

I'm writing a system for AD&D that involves revamped dragons. Much smaller and weaker than the norm for D&D, these dragons are supposed to be mounts for the elite (fulfilling a role vaguely akin to that of chariots) rather than army-stomping god-creatures. I want them to be tough enough that level 1 parties would consider them a fight not to be taken head-on, but weak enough that you can't just plow one into a mass of infantry (or a corps of archers) and expect to come out ahead. I have very little experience with AD&D and no experience creating novel monsters for it, so I'd like some help here. Anyone got a good idea of appropriate AC and HP for such a beast? (They will have spell resistance, just in case one normally figures that into the equation.)

[Knaight]

There's a pretty big range covered here, so lets get to specifics. Are the breath weapons still there? When you say smaller, what is the actual size you're thinking of? Do you want something just a bit more dangerous than a horse? Substantially nastier than an elephant? The chariot role could be interpreted either as just a mounts for elites bit, as being essentially inferior cavalry or as being where chariots were against otherwise infantry armies where the baseline is instead mixed infantry and cavalry.

[LibraryOgre]

I'd lean towards about 6 HD, with an AC of about 2-0. From there, I'd look at available dragons and find one that meets that, and just use it as a baseline. An Age category 2 White Dragon might be a good baseline to start from.

[VoxRationis]

There's a pretty big range covered here, so lets get to specifics. Are the breath weapons still there? When you say smaller, what is the actual size you're thinking of? Do you want something just a bit more dangerous than a horse? Substantially nastier than an elephant? The chariot role could be interpreted either as just a mounts for elites bit, as being essentially inferior cavalry or as being where chariots were against otherwise infantry armies where the baseline is instead mixed infantry and cavalry.

Breath weapons are a thing, and the primary weapon of any dragon. Scales are tough, but reasonable for an actual creature, and mass bow/crossbow fire will take one out. More delicate than an elephant in terms of strength and physical resilience, but a horse is nowhere so dangerous as a dragon. Size varies, but all are quite large—think along the lines of Quetzalcoatlus in terms of wingspan. The body is of course mostly wing. As far as chariot analogies go, I was thinking both in terms of numbers fielded and in terms of being a vehicle for elites, as well as being weak to crossbows.

[Knaight]

Should we also be considering Quetzalcoatlus in terms of mass? They're a fair bit bigger than humans (500lbs or so), but by the standards of mounts that's not a lot. A horse twice that size is a pretty small horse. If more typical draconic dimensions are assumed where "mostly wing" leaves a lot more for the rest of the body than a pterosaur that could easily be driven up to a bit bigger than a horse, and much more dangerous by virtue of the whole flying and breath attack thing. A crocodile with AC bumped down by 1-2 and another HD would work as a baseline, with breath weapons, flying, etc. added.

[VoxRationis]

I have the MM2 but not the regular one. How tough is a crocodile?

As far as more information goes on the dragons, I'll put it like this: Dragons were bred as low-magic mounts by the obligatory fallen magical civilization because the previous teleporting crystal orbs, magic carpets, and flying castles were too resource-intensive. Dragons are meant to fly, obey commands, and breathe fire, and their physical characteristics are emblematic of this. Dragons are supposed to be pretty close to aerodynamically feasible without magic, so their bodies are quite light. Their forelegs are there solely to make them walk more gracefully, so they can be brought indoors without clambering everywhere like a bat and knocking everything over. If you're getting clawed by a dragon, it's because you're far too close to it for the dragon's comfort, much like if you're getting bitten by a human. They don't run particularly quickly, since they have short legs. Their jaws are dangerous to humans, but not necessarily as specialized for bite force as a crocodile or shark might be. I'm not sure of a good mass estimate for a dragon; I've described them as "light for their size and delicate for their weight."

[VoxRationis]

So I'm looking through the monster statistics and I'm noticing that the stated "levels" cap at 10, even for archdevils and the like. So what are they supposed to mean?

I'm thinking of giving them 3 to 5 HD, depending on breed, and scrapping the normal age progression for dragons. Is this too little? Will a 3-5 HD monster just get chopped to ribbons in normal play?

[Khedrac]

So I'm looking through the monster statistics and I'm noticing that the stated "levels" cap at 10, even for archdevils and the like. So what are they supposed to mean?OK - there are tables for selecting monsters for random encounters, and those tables go from I to X, however that is not an indication of what level is suitable to encounter them at, if I remember correctly, somewhere in the DMG is a table by average party level of how many monsters from which tables might be a reasonable encounter. Table X monsters I think were only for 16+ characters.

[VoxRationis]

I can't find that in my DM's Guide. The closest thing I can find seems to be saying that character level goes hand-in-hand with monster/dungeon level. Was there a shift midway through 2e? I have a late printing (after Wizards acquired TSR, as far as I can tell).

[VoxRationis]

Incidentally, I've put some early ideas for dragon stats on a thread in the Homebrew section.