[3.5] Int, Wis, Cha?

[Thurbane]

Just wondering,

Of the three mental stats, which is the easiest to pump up the highest with little to no LA?

Looking for official 3.5 sources only.

Cheers - T

[Venger]

Just wondering,

Of the three mental stats, which is the easiest to pump up the highest with little to no LA?

Looking for official 3.5 sources only.

Cheers - T

Top of my head, probably anthropomorphic bat, which gives a +6 to wis without LA.

If you can get at least a +2 (or more) to int, and factor warp touch-derived swollen head into consideration, int can equal it.

I don't know of a way to get an equivalent +6 for 0 la on cha. derro is the first thing that springs to mind, but an insane one isn't usable as a pc

[MesiDoomstalker]

Top of my head, probably anthropomorphic bat, which gives a +6 to wis without LA.

If you can get at least a +2 (or more) to int, and factor warp touch-derived swollen head into consideration, int can equal it.

I don't know of a way to get an equivalent +6 for 0 la on cha. derro is the first thing that springs to mind, but an insane one isn't usable as a pc

Actually, Intelligence. Maximized Awaken Animal gives you 18 Int (since you roll 3d6 for Int). Maximized Empowered Awaken Animal will give you 18 + 0.5*3d6 Int, so a max of 27.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Wisdom, by a long shot.

This is everything I've found so far to boost the three stats:

Int: 138
--66 Base (Reserves of Strength Polymorph Any Object: Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon with +2 from Ability Enhancer [not included below]; exchange bodies prior to casting, then switch back to keep old body) (Typeless)
--+3 Age (Typeless)
--+5 HD (Typeless)
--+5 Wish (Inherent)
--+14 Greater/Bestow Curse (Typeless)
--+7 Extract Gift (Enhancement)
--+4 Fiend of Possession (Profane)
--+1 Soul Elixir of Elixirs (Typeless)
--+1 Soul Elixir, Knowing (Typeless)
--+1 Great Intelligence Feat (Typeless)
--+11 Persistent Intensified Transfusion* (DrMag #339, Intensified) (Typeless)
--+10 Horseshoes of Flame (Typeless)
--+4 Ability Enhancer Feat (Varies)
--+4 Persistent Assimilate (Typeless)
--+2 Persistent Greater Visage of the Deity (Typeless)
Wis: +LOTS
--+3 Age (Typeless)
--+5 HD (Typeless)
--+5 Wish (Inherent)
--+14 Greater/Bestow Curse (Typeless)
--+7 Extract Gift (Enhancement)
--+1 Soul Elixir of Elixirs (Typeless)
--+1 Soul Elixir, Intuition (Typeless)
--+LOTS Persistent Owl's Insight (Insight)
--+11 Persistent Intensified Transfusion* (DrMag #339, Intensified) (Typeless)
--+6 Ability Enhancer Feat (Varies)
--+4 Persistent Greater Visage of the Deity (Typeless)
--+4 Persistent Assimilate (Typeless)
--+1 Great Wisdom Feat (Typeless)
Cha: +117
--+3 Age (Typeless)
--+5 HD (Typeless)
--+5 Wish (Inherent)
--+14 Greater/Bestow Curse (Typeless)
--+4 Fiend of Possession (Profane)
--+1 Great Charisma Feat (Typeless)
--+1 Soul Elixir of Elixirs (Typeless)
--+1 Soul Elixir, Bard's Brew (Typeless)
--+40 Persistent Intensified Beauty's Caress** (Enhancement)
--+11 Persistent Intensified Transfusion* (DrMag #339, Intensified) (Typeless)
--+10 Ability Enhancer Feat (Typeless)
--+6 Horseshoes of Flame (Typeless)
--+4 Persistent Snowsong (Morale)
--+4 Persistent Righteous Aura (Sacred)
--+4 Persistent Greater Visage of the Deity (Typeless)
--+4 Persistent Assimilate (Typeless)

Owl's Insight is the key, here. With enough caster level bonuses, it is entirely uncapped and can go really, really high.

[Zanos]

Actually, Intelligence. Maximized Awaken Animal gives you 18 Int (since you roll 3d6 for Int). Maximized Empowered Awaken Animal will give you 18 + 0.5*3d6 Int, so a max of 27.
Is that a valid character? If so: We must go even further beyond. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#intensifySpell)

I think intelligence is the easiest because you can rip another creatures intelligence score with PaO. Get your caster level high enough and turn into an epic dragon for 70ish base intelligence.

[Ruethgar]

Actually, Intelligence. Maximized Awaken Animal gives you 18 Int (since you roll 3d6 for Int). Maximized Empowered Awaken Animal will give you 18 + 0.5*3d6 Int, so a max of 27.
And bonus! ECL of Awakened Animals hasn't been updated since 3.0 so Cat, Lizard, Monkey and a couple others are all ECL 0 even Advanced, Empowered, and Maximized.

Edit: Oooo forgot Intensified. So on a Titanic Warbeast Awakened Monkey/Cat/Lizard/Rat/Toad(gotta love that Awaken sets ECL and not LA and that it doesn't have that pesky no template clause) that's 36 int plus 28 free Magical Beast HD that you can use to boost it to 43.

Anthropomorphic Ravens also give +6 Wis and have better stats(due to text trumps table) than Bat also for +0 LA. Bats are only better if they keep Blindsense which is unclear.

Magic Blooded Lesser Aasimar is LA +0 for +4 Cha.

[Inevitability]

Top of my head, probably anthropomorphic bat, which gives a +6 to wis without LA.

Also Jermlaine, which is probably easier accepted by DM's.

[ShurikVch]

If Dragon magazines are allowed, Cha will be superior: Awaken Magical Beast spell (#304) gives +d3 Cha (just like normal Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm)).
Since type doesn't change, you can cast it again and again; requirement of target to have no more than 3 Int is easily fulfilled by the Ray of Stupidity

[Mordaedil]

Naw, you must have permanently less than 3 intelligence.

[ShurikVch]

Naw, you must have permanently less than 3 intelligence.Prove it.
RAW says:
As Awaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm), but you awaken a magical beast with an Intelligence score no higher than 3Where is anything about "permanently"?

[Mordaedil]

It's the same situation as you not qualifying for feats or other prequisites by wearing a headband of intelligence.

[Inevitability]

It's the same situation as you not qualifying for feats or other prequisites by wearing a headband of intelligence.

Except feats and PrC prerequisites have explicit rules governing what happens in such a situation. This particular spell doesn't.

[Bronk]

Actually, Intelligence. Maximized Awaken Animal gives you 18 Int (since you roll 3d6 for Int). Maximized Empowered Awaken Animal will give you 18 + 0.5*3d6 Int, so a max of 27.

Awakening a plant covers all three mental stats, and only has as many HD as a construct of it's size.

Where are these Soul Elixirs found?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Where are these Soul Elixirs found?Dragon #317. They're lesser artifacts (meaning they're costless and thus technically are stored within a spell component pouch due to a certain spell in the BoVD), and they provide a +1 untyped stacking bonus to one or more ability scores.

You can add as many instances of a metapsionic feat as you have focuses to pay for them (so long as you don't go over your augmentation costs due to ML), but the ardent has two ACFs (Dominant Ideal and Mantle Substitution) that can help, here. Learn the awaken spell via psychic chirurgery, and add it to your Dominant Ideal mantle via Mantle Substitution. Now reduce the cost of Empower Power via Metapower (Empower + awaken), and now you have NI mental stats, especially if you metamorphosis into a plant first, as you no longer need to expend your focus to apply Empower to awaken, and it costs 0 pp to do so.

[LordOfCain]

So the best way to be charismatic in DnD is to be a creature made of magic and keep becoming stupid?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So the best way to be charismatic in DnD is to be a creature made of magic and keep becoming stupid?More like become a psionic plant and super-Empower-awaken yourself.

[supersonic29]

Oooo forgot Intensified. So on a Titanic Warbeast Awakened Monkey/Cat/Lizard/Rat/Toad(gotta love that Awaken sets ECL and not LA and that it doesn't have that pesky no template clause) that's 36 int plus 28 free Magical Beast HD that you can use to boost it to 43.

So the casting cost for that intensified awaken is... 4010gp? You do have to fight the bit of text that says "If the additional costs put the spell’s total cost above 3,000 gp, that spell is not generally available." though what is usually the case and what isn't is not a big problem for RAW. I mean, not that any DM is going to let you play a magic monkey with 36 Int before you even get into making it a massive magic monkey and giving it 28 extra HD.

[ShurikVch]

So the best way to be charismatic in DnD is to be a creature made of magic and keep becoming stupid?Don't forget to be constantly drained of all those Magical Beast HD.

especially if you metamorphosis into a plant first, as you no longer need to expend your focus to apply Empower to awaken, and it costs 0 pp to do so.Little correction: not into Plant; into tree. Trees are objects. You will need Greater Metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm) for it

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Little correction: not into Plant; into tree. Trees are objects. You will need Greater Metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm) for itErr...no. Metamorphosis is fully capable of turning you into an object, and thus, a tree, which is also a plant.


You can also use this power to assume the form of an inanimate object.

[ShurikVch]

Err...no. Metamorphosis is fully capable of turning you into an object, and thus, a tree, which is also a plant.Yes, but tree is a very complex object. What's the skill and how high is DC?

Also, in which mantle will fit Awaken?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes, but tree is a very complex object. What's the skill and how high is DC?It says complex mechanical object, which a tree is not. And a tree is considerably less complex than, say, a dog.


Also, in which mantle will fit Awaken?Corruption and Madness? Creation? Guardian? Knowledge? Life? Magic? Mental Power? Natural World?

[ShurikVch]

It says complex mechanical object, which a tree is not.
Tree is more complex than any mechanical object. You will need different associated skill

And a tree is considerably less complex than, say, a dog.Dog is creature, thus it's complexity doesn't matter; tree is object, thus use rules for objects

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Tree is more complex than any mechanical object. You will need different associated skillBut it's not mechanical, so that passage doesn't apply, no matter how complex it might be.


Dog is creature, thus it's complexity doesn't matter; tree is object, thus use rules for objectsYes it does, and so it doesn't require a Craft skill or a DC.


At first glance, only Corruption and Madness and Knowledge have free 5th level slot. OKYou do realize that you can swap out an existing power for another one using the ACF, right?


Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)

Considering the esoteric nature of mantles, different ardents may have the same mantle but have different powers available to them. A mantle can have no more than ten powers in it, and if it has fewer, add further powers to fill the gaps if that mantle has no powers of that level. The powers need to fit the theme of the mantle at the DM's discretion. Otherwise, you can substitute a power of equal or lesser level. For example, the sense danger* power could be added to the Fate mantle as a 3rd-level power since only seven powers and no 3rd-level powers are in it, or the faint memory* power could replace escape detection in the Deception mantle.

[ShurikVch]

But it's not mechanical, so that passage doesn't apply, no matter how complex it might be.I see you prefer to don't notice Craft (painting) in painting example? :smallamused:

Knowledge (nature) may be associated skill

Unfortunately, Metamorphosis still unable to turn you into tree: it can turn you into creature (tree isn't creature) or inanimate object (tree isn't inanimate).
That's why I mentioned Greater Metamorphosis - it's able to turn into any object, period


Yes it does, and so it doesn't require a Craft skill or a DC.Eh?.. I don't get it - are you agreeing with me there?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I see you prefer to don't notice Craft (painting) in painting example? :smallamused:

Knowledge (nature) may be associated skill

Unfortunately, Metamorphosis still unable to turn you into tree: it can turn you into creature (tree isn't creature) or inanimate object (tree isn't inanimate).
That's why I mentioned Greater Metamorphosis - it's able to turn into any object, periodHonestly, trees aren't terribly complicated, especially on a macro scale, so no DC should be required. But still, "plant" isn't a creature type that's barred from the creature function of metamorphosis, and there are tree creatures, which are undoubtedly even more complex than a non-creature tree. Awaken works either way, so turn into a treant and hit yourself with it. It's not like it's any less doable.


Eh?.. I don't get it - are you agreeing with me there?Insofar as you can turn into a tree by following the rules of metamorphosis? Yep.

[Dromuthra]

Anthropomorphic Ravens also give +6 Wis and have better stats(due to text trumps table) than Bat also for +0 LA. Bats are only better if they keep Blindsense which is unclear.

Magic Blooded Lesser Aasimar is LA +0 for +4 Cha.

Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Aasimar is LA +0 for +6 Cha.

Bats have better maneuverability, which can be nice. And thanks for the point about the ravens - I'd never caught that before.

[ShurikVch]

But still, "plant" isn't a creature type that's barred from the creature function of metamorphosis, and there are tree creatures, which are undoubtedly even more complex than a non-creature tree.Sorry, but trees aren't Plants: "Plant" is a creature type; trees aren't creatures, thus - aren't Plants

Awaken works either way, so turn into a treant and hit yourself with it. It's not like it's any less doable.Except nothing suggesting Awaken should work on a Treant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/treant.htm) - this spell works only on Animals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType) and trees; Treant is a Plant

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sorry, but trees aren't Plants: "Plant" is a creature type; trees aren't creatures, thus - aren't Plants
Except nothing suggesting Awaken should work on a Treant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/treant.htm) - this spell works only on Animals (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType) and trees; Treant is a PlantIt's also an animated tree. Also, animate plants. The results of that spell have Wis and Cha scores, and are therefore creatures. Feel free to turn into one of those.

[Ruethgar]

Magic Blooded Unseelie Fey Aasimar is LA +0 for +6 Cha.

Bats have better maneuverability, which can be nice. And thanks for the point about the ravens - I'd never caught that before.

Damn, forgot Unseelie.

Also could have sworn there was text about maneuverability loss per size increase but it seems I was mistaken.

[Dromuthra]

Damn, forgot Unseelie.

Also could have sworn there was text about maneuverability loss per size increase but it seems I was mistaken.

No, the text is there, but Bats start out with Good and Ravens with Average, which means they end up with Average and Poor respectively.

[Mordaedil]

Except feats and PrC prerequisites have explicit rules governing what happens in such a situation. This particular spell doesn't.

Well, if that's the case, then a sorcerer looses spells known if he loses too much charisma, a wizard is denied skill points when he levels up with intelligence drain or even damage, despite being temporary, no? Because the rules don't actually mention that they don't.

[Ruethgar]

No, the text is there, but Bats start out with Good and Ravens with Average, which means they end up with Average and Poor respectively.

I meant per size increase(as I said) so Dimimutive:Good to Tiny:Average to Small:Poor for the Bat, Tiny:Average to Small:Poor for the Raven.

[Zanos]

Well, if that's the case, then a sorcerer looses spells known if he loses too much charisma, a wizard is denied skill points when he levels up with intelligence drain or even damage, despite being temporary, no? Because the rules don't actually mention that they don't.
Sorcerer spells known aren't based off charisma, but yes, if you gain a level with intelligence damage or drain you would receive less skill points.

[Thurbane]

Probably have mentioned playable as a PC in the original post, so Awakened-anything that doesn't have a listed LA is no good.

[Ruethgar]

Probably have mentioned playable as a PC in the original post, so Awakened-anything that doesn't have a listed LA is no good.

All 3.0 MMI Animals(sorry no dinosaurs) have a listed ECL for their Awakened states and are thus playable as a PC. The other creatures in the article recived updates in 3.5, however you could still use the old ECLs for Animated Objects if you wanted to be an awakened tree, it is just not 3.5 legal.

[Mordaedil]

Sorcerer spells known aren't based off charisma, but yes, if you gain a level with intelligence damage or drain you would receive less skill points.

They aren't, except when they are, such as when your base charisma is not equal to 10 + spell level, where you become unable to cast them if below it.

[Zanos]

They aren't, except when they are, such as when your base charisma is not equal to 10 + spell level, where you become unable to cast them if below it.
I didn't think that triggered any rule that causes you to lose it as a spell known. If it does, you could relearn all your spells by messing with your charisma score. Which would be amusing.

[ShurikVch]

Probably have mentioned playable as a PC in the original post, so Awakened-anything that doesn't have a listed LA is no good.Notes about Magical Beasts: there are a number of those with listed LAs (+0 for Beguiler and Tressym); Shadow Creature template in Manual of the Planes turn anything in Magical Beast for LA: +2; as the last resort, Primeval PrC (Frostburn) turns in to Magical Beast at capstone

[Mordaedil]

I didn't think that triggered any rule that causes you to lose it as a spell known. If it does, you could relearn all your spells by messing with your charisma score. Which would be amusing.

Totally.

But the point is to not have the DM chase you out of his house by throwing his DM guide at you, I think. :smalltongue:

[ShurikVch]

There is a rather obscure thing: spell Unspeakable Oath (Transmutation, Sor/Wiz 5, 1000 xp, Call of Cthulhu d20): every time you get a level, or every year of your life, you get +1 Int; every time it's happen you also suffer d2 Cha drain; if your Cha drained to 0, you will turn into evil NPC with Chosen of Hastur template; if you die, then Hastur transform your relative instead you; also, Hastur can decide to speed up transformation by increasing Cha drain up to d4/hour

Note: Hastur is canon for D&D: #134 of Dungeon magazine featured a Dungeons & Dragons adventure written by Matthew Hope called "And Madness Followed", about a bard who performed The King in Yellow for increasingly larger communities, each time warping the populace into Far Realm horrors.