Paladin sub-class: The Oathless

[Arkhios]

I thought I might share my idea for a paladin that has failed his or her Sacred Oath, but haven't become an Oathbreaker on purpose.
Since there have been talk about making the character to retrain his or her paladin levels to Champion, I wondered why would you lose all your spellcasting, if you knew how to cast spells even before you chose your Sacred Oath? That doesn't make sense. Instead, I thought that maybe you could just replace the Sacred Oath features with those of the Champion archetype.
It's obviously up to each and every DM individually whether to allow a player to become an Oathless right from the 3rd level sharp, but I would advise against it. It takes quite a bit of juice from anyone wanting to play a Champion if you can be a paladin with the Champion abilities. So, this one could be an option to those who might find themselves (unintentionally!) between oaths for a while. This could become available with the clause that the paladin must actively seek to atone, maybe via quest, but could replace his oath features as follows until he can swear a new oath.

Improved Critical.
At 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

Remarkable Athlete.
At 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus.
In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier.

Additional Fighting Style.
At 15th level, you can choose a second option from the Fighting Style class feature.

Superior Critical.
At 20th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.

[MrStabby]

Are you suggesting that a 3 level dip of an oathless paladin would get access to both divine smite and improved critical?

[Gastronomie]

Though the loss of Channel Divinity sucks, it should be noted that Improved Critical is better on a Paladin than a Fighter, due to Divine Smite nova issues.

I doubt people will use this (most people have an oath in mind when they create the character), but in a weird way, it could be useful.

[Arkhios]

Are you suggesting that a 3 level dip of an oathless paladin would get access to both divine smite and improved critical?

If the DM was stupid enough to allow someone make an Oathless paladin right at character creation, then yes. (Note, I advised against it and put a clause that this could only be accessed when a paladin of another Oath lost his way, but didn't become Oathbreaker on purpose). :smallbiggrin:


Though the loss of Channel Divinity sucks, it should be noted that Improved Critical is better on a Paladin than a Fighter, due to Divine Smite nova issues.

I doubt people will use this (most people have an oath in mind when they create the character), but in a weird way, it could be useful.

Frankly, so do I, but on the other hand, that was exactly my thought: in a weird way, it could be useful. :smallbiggrin:

[Millstone85]

I wondered why would you lose all your spellcasting, if you knew how to cast spells even before you chose your Sacred Oath? That doesn't make sense.I would imagine that even the 1st level of the paladin class requires that you pledge yourself to some higher force. If, after completing your training and taking a sacred oath, you then break that oath, atonement would be required before you can even go back to the training part.

And be glad your connection was with an outer plane of goodness or the god who lives there. What if you were at Castle Black but not yet a sworn brother of the Night's Watch? Do you think you could take your oath, break it and then go back to being a new recruit? You hide and run for your life, dude, or you turn on your former brothers.

[DracoKnight]

I have a Paladin subclass in my games that I use for Paladins who have broken their oath, without sinking to the level of an Oathbreaker. The Vow of the Forsaken (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492313-Vow-of-the-Forsaken-(Player-friendly-paladin-who-has-broken-their-oath)-PEACH&p=20919169#post20919169) - I hope this helps! :smallsmile:

[Falcon X]

I wondered why would you lose all your spellcasting, if you knew how to cast spells even before you chose your Sacred Oath? That doesn't make sense.
While I like the idea of an Oathless, this reasoning doesn't work. Paladins do not study and learn spells like an arcanist (wizard, warlock, sorcerer, bard) does. A paladin works closer to how a cleric does. They are either gifted their spells from the gods, or the strength of their conviction is such that it somehow draws divine energy. Oathless would neither have the conviction or the approval of their god.

Vow of the Forsaken is viable enough with this. It would be a good model.

You could also create class abilities that resemble spells. In theory, many 5e spells for paladin and ranger could be explained in nonmystical ways. Compelled duel is just a taunt, etc.

[Mandragola]

The thing is, paladins don’t really learn their divine abilities. They are granted them, and they can be taken away.

Personally, I’m surprised there are so many threads about paladins who don’t fulfil their vows. It’s weird to me that people would not RP as a paladin if they played one. In many (not all) cases I think this is down to ooc issues between the DM and player, who have different expectations of what it means to be a paladin. Or DMs who think (sometimes correctly, sometimes not) that they know how a player should play their character better than the player does

Anyway, if I was DMing the thing I’d do would be to talk to a player. My suggestions would be:
- Sort it out. You swore you’d do this stuff so do it, or else. If they are new to rpgs then it’s much better to help them than punish them. If that doesn’t work…
- You can’t advance any more as a paladin, because your god stops giving you new toys.
- Your god takes all your toys away. You aren’t a paladin any more. Pick a new class.
- Roll a new character. Paladin is not for you.

[Addaran]

Personally, I’m surprised there are so many threads about paladins who don’t fulfil their vows. It’s weird to me that people would not RP as a paladin if they played one. In many (not all) cases I think this is down to ooc issues between the DM and player, who have different expectations of what it means to be a paladin. Or DMs who think (sometimes correctly, sometimes not) that they know how a player should play their character better than the player does


Probably the case for a lot of those threads. But there's lots of RP reasons to make a paladin that doesn't fulfill their vows.

-You play a flawed character.
-The cost is too big to bear if you fallow your oath.
-"Mercy" killing that goes against your oath.
-Lose-lose situations.

It can lead to awesome RP experiences, foward the story and makes the characters more realistic.

[Arkhios]

While I like the idea of an Oathless, this reasoning doesn't work. Paladins do not study and learn spells like an arcanist (wizard, warlock, sorcerer, bard) does. A paladin works closer to how a cleric does. They are either gifted their spells from the gods, or the strength of their conviction is such that it somehow draws divine energy. Oathless would neither have the conviction or the approval of their god.

Vow of the Forsaken is viable enough with this. It would be a good model.

You could also create class abilities that resemble spells. In theory, many 5e spells for paladin and ranger could be explained in nonmystical ways. Compelled duel is just a taunt, etc.

I didn't claim paladins would study spells like wizards do. I know that they are divine in nature and prepared like clerics do.

I disagree that an Oathless wouldn't have conviction. You can have conviction even if you had failed to follow the tenets of your Oath to the letter. For example, if you were to later question your faith to the god you once served and vowed your Oath of Devotion to, finding that the cause you once fought for wasn't as righteous as you believed it to be, and began to feel you could do something differently, but doing so you would stray a bit off, while otherwise remaining true to your own convictions could cause you to fall, but not be enough to become an oathbreaker. In theory you could become an Oathless at that point.

Paladin doesn't need a god's approval to receive spells. Neither is Sacred Oath a requirement to have spells. If it was, Oath would have to be chosen at 2nd level when paladins gain Spellcasting in the first place.

[MasterMercury]

I disagree that an Oathless wouldn't have conviction. You can have conviction even if you had failed to follow the tenets of your Oath to the letter. For example, if you were to later question your faith to the god you once served and vowed your Oath of Devotion to, finding that the cause you once fought for wasn't as righteous as you believed it to be, and began to feel you could do something differently, but doing so you would stray a bit off, while otherwise remaining true to your own convictions could cause you to fall, but not be enough to become an oathbreaker. In theory you could become an Oathless at that point.



This is somewhat similar to a paladin I played. He was Oath of Devotion, but he was more like a casual cop than anything. He would lie, cheat, and frequent brothels. However, he would always to the right thing when push came to shove, even though he wasn't happy about it.

He did somethings that could break his oath, but he knew that sometimes bad things happen, he had to live with it.

Honestly, I prefer to keep crunch and fluff separate. If your player wants to play a lazy paladin, or a lawful stupid one, or a just-not-nice one, let them and move on.

[fbelanger]

A paladin who break oath is without oath feature.
It is a shame, a punishment.

If he atone a DM may let him change oath.

If he don't want to atone, he switch to the dark side and may have a bad guy oath, If DM agree.

You may have the same situation for a cleric. He can make himself out of its domain. It a break in its faith. You don't want to rewards him by choosing a wizard school until he atone.

[Arkhios]

A paladin who break oath is without oath feature.
It is a shame, a punishment.

If he atone a DM may let him change oath.

If he don't want to atone, he switch to the dark side and may have a bad guy oath, If DM agree.

You may have the same situation for a cleric. He can make himself out of its domain. It a break in its faith. You don't want to rewards him by choosing a wizard school until he atone.

That is your prerogative should you wish to rule it that way. Others may or may not agree with you. When you understand and accept this, please do tell what do you think of this possible alternative solution that isn't more than a suggestion for a house-rule.

Please, all of you who are belittling the efforts I'm trying to put here, try to understand that while you may feel differently about it, the rules might not satisfy everyone, and the immediate switch from good to evil just because you made one mistake is arbitrary rule at best.
Even if you allowed a non-evil Oathbreaker its abilities are so evil that you can smell the fire and brimstone miles away. There should be another way to be a fallen paladin that's not evil. I'm not saying Oathless should replace Oathbreaker (it could, but it's not my intent).

[Syll]

Paladin doesn't need a god's approval to receive spells. Neither is Sacred Oath a requirement to have spells. If it was, Oath would have to be chosen at 2nd level when paladins gain Spellcasting in the first place.
I wholeheartedly agree. Further, I've always thought it bizarre that Paladin is always the target of this bias, where other divines are left to do as they will.

I personally consider a 1st and 2nd level paladin to be an acolyte, or supplicant; in much the same way you have catholic Brothers who attend the seminary, but may never be chosen as Priests, or come to realize that they are not cut out for such a life and walk away prior to taking any vows.

And all that only really applies if you choose a deity for your paladin, otherwise there is only the Oath.

On another note I think it would be a ton of fun to play a paladin in the same vein as Gruntle, the Mortal Sword of Trake, who was chosen by his god... despite him not even worshipping Trake, and in fact openly mocks his clergy when they make demands of him. (Steven Erikson's Malazan series)

[Sigreid]

This really just seems to me like it is completely contrary to the whole point of a paladin.

[Kane0]

Sounds about right.

[MasterMercury]

Yeah, it's a good idea to work something out, but I don't know. A Paladin without an oath is like a Warlock without a patron. How much of the power is part of you, and how much can be taken away.

I like the idea of an oathless paladin to be just that. A paladin without an oath, as in without a subclass. He can still smite and lay on hands, but there's no passion behind it.
So what if it's not balanced. A paladin without an oath shouldn't be as powerful as a paladin with one.
The idea of a paladin getting something different because he's not following an Oath is just wrong.
Besides, they are already better in a way. An oathless paladin has greater flexibility than one bound. He can be perfectly neutral, good, or evil, because he can't fall farther.

[Gastronomie]

Yeah, it's a good idea to work something out, but I don't know. A Paladin without an oath is like a Warlock without a patron. How much of the power is part of you, and how much can be taken away.

I like the idea of an oathless paladin to be just that. A paladin without an oath, as in without a subclass. He can still smite and lay on hands, but there's no passion behind it.
So what if it's not balanced. A paladin without an oath shouldn't be as powerful as a paladin with one.
The idea of a paladin getting something different because he's not following an Oath is just wrong.
Besides, they are already better in a way. An oathless paladin has greater flexibility than one bound. He can be perfectly neutral, good, or evil, because he can't fall farther.A point you've got there. Again, even if 99% of the people looking at this thread never use this, if 1% does, this thread has meaning - but at least it seems I belong in that 99%.

[Arkhios]

To be fair, I don't have even the slightest intention of not following an Oath with any paladin I have played and will play. It's purely food for thought: "what if?"

[Sabeta]

Wouldn't an Oathless Paladin just be a Fighter, a Cleric, a Ranger, or a Monk depending on the deity and place of study?
I'm not trying to knock your idea or anything it's just that Paladins are in many ways defined by their oath, to the point
that the one exception (Oathbreaker) is considered a strictly evil option that should be reserved for NPCs. I feel like
your fluff here is just as easily achieved by being a Fighter with very strong religious convictions.

[Arkhios]

Wouldn't an Oathless Paladin just be a Fighter, a Cleric, a Ranger, or a Monk depending on the deity and place of study?
I'm not trying to knock your idea or anything it's just that Paladins are in many ways defined by their oath, to the point
that the one exception (Oathbreaker) is considered a strictly evil option that should be reserved for NPCs. I feel like
your fluff here is just as easily achieved by being a Fighter with very strong religious convictions.

Yeah, you certainly could play strongly religious fighter, but my point was that, as a paladin, if you would have to turn away from your oath for some reason but wouldn't qualify for Oathbreaker either, you could have this option instead of replacing all your paladin levels with another class entirely. It just could be an alternative solution that would require less work. In many cases you might be so attached to the character that simply rerolling a new one, or suddenly being forced to play a possible polar opposite, might not be fun idea. Certainly this option does weigh closer to rule of fun.

But clearly having heard this argument multiple times both in this thread and many others, it seems that I've been talking to the winds.

[CaptainSarathai]

Firstly, I will never understand why they made an "Oathbreaker Oath" rather than just calling it Blackguard like they always had. To me, the Oathbreaker crunch seems more like a Paladin who has sworn himself to an evil deity. And maybe that's the point we've all been missing; maybe Wizards thinks that a Paladin who screws up should have a chance to repent, and their god will continue offering them aid during that trial (hence, they keep their Pally spells and Oath abilities). If they do not wish to repent then they have a choice: either stop leveling as a Pally and therefore lose progress on further Oath benefits and spells, OR swear fealty to a dark new master, who gives them new oath abilities and spells.

I don't thinkt that a Paladin who breaks their Oath even needs to lose any abilities they already had - as has been said, it's down to conviction. If you're still convinced that you are doing good deeds, then you can muster the Charisma to manipulate the weave and and Smite someone or cast Compelled Duel or whatever. As a DM, if a character was acting "against his Oath" I might tell him that he can't do something. Example,
"I want to Smite that screaming infant, because he annoys me"
"Uh, you can hit him I guess, but can't really drum up the requisite sense of Divine Grace required to actually manifest a Smite. Sorry"
"Of course I can, he's REALLY annoying, Pelor will thank me when we can all sleep peacefully tonight!"
"Actually, no, Pelor is pulling the plug on this one, and you get a sense that he might be rather cross with you if you go murdering babies in His name"
---

I do like flawed characters though, and I like the idea of having a Paladin who has broken their Oath without turning evil, and also having an option for removing a god's divine favor from a Paladin (and therefore his Oath features and maybe even spells) until the Paladin has redeemed themselves.

Maybe something like Oath of the Penitent and make it feature a lot of self-harm or self-sacrifice to fuel it's abilities. Something like the Crown 7th level feature that lets you substitute your own HP when an ally takes damage, and have their Channel Divinity make every attack use the Barbarian's 'Reckless Attack' feature - maybe even with a duration like Rage, where it ends if the Paladin doesn't attack or take damage on their turn.

This would not only create an alternative for players who want to play a flawed character who spends their life seeking redemption for past transgressions, but also gives DMs a set of rules that they can impose upon Paladins who have fallen from grace and are on a quest to regain the favor of their god.

I'll go see if I can work something out along these lines, and post it up.

[DivisibleByZero]

Every pal2/casterX will now take pal3 instead just so they can voluntarily break their oath in game and get improved critical.

Nope. Not even a little bit.

[CaptainSarathai]

Got it, posted in Homebrew:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507847-5e-Oath-of-Penitence-Pally-Oath&p=21450700#post21450700

[djreynolds]

I thought I might share my idea for a paladin that has failed his or her Sacred Oath, but haven't become an Oathbreaker on purpose.
Since there have been talk about making the character to retrain his or her paladin levels to Champion, I wondered why would you lose all your spellcasting, if you knew how to cast spells even before you chose your Sacred Oath? That doesn't make sense. Instead, I thought that maybe you could just replace the Sacred Oath features with those of the Champion archetype.
It's obviously up to each and every DM individually whether to allow a player to become an Oathless right from the 3rd level sharp, but I would advise against it. It takes quite a bit of juice from anyone wanting to play a Champion if you can be a paladin with the Champion abilities. So, this one could be an option to those who might find themselves (unintentionally!) between oaths for a while. This could become available with the clause that the paladin must actively seek to atone, maybe via quest, but could replace his oath features as follows until he can swear a new oath.

Improved Critical.
At 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.

Remarkable Athlete.
At 7th level, you can add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus.
In addition, when you make a running long jump, the distance you can cover increases by a number of feet equal to your Strength modifier.

Additional Fighting Style.
At 15th level, you can choose a second option from the Fighting Style class feature.

Superior Critical.
At 20th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.

Its a cool idea. But its lacking something

How about at 3rd you get fast hands and the healer feat and expertise in medicine? You are still trying to be a paladin?

And you can lose paladin spells but replace them with bard.

Oathless, its like you fell but are still trying to be redeemed.

[DanyBallon]

I don't mind having an oathless paladin that failed to respect its vows. But your proposition is just too tempting for optimizer as you get the most insteresting features of the Champion in addition to the paladins smites and spell versatility.

Expanded crit range should be reserved to the Champion, or come only around 11th level or later as a feature on an other martial class.

[VoxRationis]

The Oathless: "By the power of my lack of conviction, I smite thee!"
Seriously, a paladin is defined by and powered by their devotion to an ideal. Why give mechanical support to one too wishy-washy to do such a thing?

[CaptainSarathai]

So, apparently I posted mine in the wrong section and have to ask to see it moved. Anyway, here's what I've got for those who don't want to click out:


Oath Spells
3rd Armor of Agathys, Compelled Duel
5th Warding Bond, Zone of Truth
9th Crusader's Mantle, Dispel Magic
13th Locate Creature, Banishment
17th Circle of Power, Geas

Channel Divinity (3rd level)
Penitent Wrath - As a bonus action, you enter a fury of penitent zeal, lasting for 1 minute. During this time, all your melee attacks have Advantage, but any attack which targets you also gain Advantage.
This effect ends early if you are knocked unconscious or of your turn ends and you have not attacked a hostile creature since your last turn, or taken damage since then.
Repentant Smite - when you hit with a melee weapon attack, you may choose to deal extra Radiant damage. The amount of this damage is any number of d10s up to your Paladin level.
After this damage has been resolved, you then take damage equal to half the additional damage dealt. This damage cannot be resisted or reduced in any way.

Selfless Sacrifice
Beginning at 7th level, when a non-hostile creature takes damage within 5ft of you, you may use your Reaction to substitute your health for that of the target, causing that target not to take damage. Instead, you take the damage. This damage cannot be reduced in any way.

Grim Resolve (15th level)
Once per Long Rest, when you would be knocked unconscious, you may declare that you are using your Grim Resolve. Rather than fall unconscious, you may continue to fight on for 1 minute. During this time, you are still required to make Death Saving Throws at the start of each turn, and if you fail 3, still die as normal.

Prayer of the Martyr
"Blade with whom I have lived, blade with whom I now die, serve right and justice one last time, seek one last heart of evil, still one last life of pain. Cut well, old friend, and then farewell"
At 20th level, once per Long Rest, you may impart the essence of your very soul into an attack. You may trigger this ability as a Bonus Action. You immediately take another turn. During this turn, you are subject to the following effects:
> You have a 30ft Fly speed
> At the start of the turn, you regain a single 3rd level spell slot
> You have Resistance to all damage sources
> When you make a melee weapon attack, if the attack hits, double all damage dealt (including sources of extra damage, such as Smites). If the attack would miss, it still deals normal damage as though it had hit.

At the end of this bonus turn, you immediately take damage equal to 10 times your Paladin Level. This damage cannot be reduced in any way.

[MasterMercury]

So, apparently I posted mine in the wrong section and have to ask to see it moved. Anyway, here's what I've got for those who don't want to click out:


Oath Spells
3rd Armor of Agathys, Compelled Duel
5th Warding Bond, Zone of Truth
9th Crusader's Mantle, Dispel Magic
13th Locate Creature, Banishment
17th Circle of Power, Geas

Channel Divinity (3rd level)
Penitent Wrath - As a bonus action, you enter a fury of penitent zeal, lasting for 1 minute. During this time, all your melee attacks have Advantage, but any attack which targets you also gain Advantage.
This effect ends early if you are knocked unconscious or of your turn ends and you have not attacked a hostile creature since your last turn, or taken damage since then.
Repentant Smite - when you hit with a melee weapon attack, you may choose to deal extra Radiant damage. The amount of this damage is any number of d10s up to your Paladin level.
After this damage has been resolved, you then take damage equal to half the additional damage dealt. This damage cannot be resisted or reduced in any way.

Selfless Sacrifice
Beginning at 7th level, when a non-hostile creature takes damage within 5ft of you, you may use your Reaction to substitute your health for that of the target, causing that target not to take damage. Instead, you take the damage. This damage cannot be reduced in any way.

Grim Resolve (15th level)
Once per Long Rest, when you would be knocked unconscious, you may declare that you are using your Grim Resolve. Rather than fall unconscious, you may continue to fight on for 1 minute. During this time, you are still required to make Death Saving Throws at the start of each turn, and if you fail 3, still die as normal.

Prayer of the Martyr
"Blade with whom I have lived, blade with whom I now die, serve right and justice one last time, seek one last heart of evil, still one last life of pain. Cut well, old friend, and then farewell"
At 20th level, once per Long Rest, you may impart the essence of your very soul into an attack. You may trigger this ability as a Bonus Action. You immediately take another turn. During this turn, you are subject to the following effects:
> You have a 30ft Fly speed
> At the start of the turn, you regain a single 3rd level spell slot
> You have Resistance to all damage sources
> When you make a melee weapon attack, if the attack hits, double all damage dealt (including sources of extra damage, such as Smites). If the attack would miss, it still deals normal damage as though it had hit.

At the end of this bonus turn, you immediately take damage equal to 10 times your Paladin Level. This damage cannot be reduced in any way.

That is actually really awesome. It works with the whole fallen paladin thing, and as long as the paladin is sorry about it, this oath will work. It's also pretty useful, and not overly powerful. Well done.

[Arkhios]

That is actually really awesome. It works with the whole fallen paladin thing, and as long as the paladin is sorry about it, this oath will work. It's also pretty useful, and not overly powerful. Well done.

Essentially I agree with this, though I have a few...Oath Spells
Don't really know about the spells, could be ok, or not. (shrug). I would actually prefer not having oath spells at all, since you are technically oathless. Could use something like the suggested Fast Hands in the other thread: "You can use a bonus action to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check to try to stabilize a dying companion or to use your Lay on Hands on a companion (but maybe not on yourself). In addition, your proficiency bonus is doubled for all Wisdom (Medicine) checks."

Channel Divinity
Usually, if you look at all the other oaths, the options are: one offensive or defensive and one for control, not two offensive/defensive options.
That said, Penitent Wrath seems appropriate. I like that. Falls squarely into the offensive category.
Repentant Smite, on the other hand, is waaay too powerful. That could be what, potentially 20d10 (40d10 with a critical hit) extra radiant damage (even though you take half of it yourself doesn't really make it any less overpowered). I'd replace this with Channel Divinity option for control.

Selfless Sacrifice
Nice, very appropriate and flavorful in my opinion. Keep it. In fact, this could even be the second Channel Divinity option. Though you would need another ability for 7th level.

Grim Resolve
This is like the half-orc's racial, but prolonged to 1 minute. Flavorful, I admit, but maybe a bit too strong. I might cut the duration to 1 round instead (until the end of your next turn), and increase the required failures to kill you by one.

Blade of the Martyr
My initial reaction to this was "whoa, that Repentant Smite was already powerful, but if there were Nobel price for being overpowered, this would win it." but then I came to realize that yes, you might actually die from it. In fact. I think you could actually just die after you've used this. No randomized guessing by rolling damage to yourself; instead, you just drop dead afterwards.

[Ugganaut]

Paladin doesn't need a god's approval to receive spells.

I thought that is exactly what they needed. I thought divine magic, by definition, is magic that comes from a divine source. The caster is receiving the spell from a divine source, and channeling that divine magic. If that source goes away, or chooses not to give it...no more divine magic. A warlock on the other hand is arcane(as an example). The knowledge is taught, and can't be taken away so easily. Makes me think of the stereotypes, of the warlock who reneges on his deal with the devil, or a fallen priest who loses his powers and becomes a fighter(paraphrasing).

Having said that, there are two possibilities I like. Either something else grants you the power you have(you change gods/beliefs, or "the darkside" rewards you), or the power you are granted changes. Or both.
Something like the Vow of Penitent/Vow of the Forsaken would fit same god/power change, or different god/power change.

Another option could be the god just tones down your granted abilities until you atone. After all they have clerics, and they don't require vows. Maybe you can only use Turn Undead instead of your Oath channel divinity's, and your Divine Smites are d6 instead of d8. That would be a significant enough incentive to atone, but wouldn't ruin the class(I think). Even the d6 instead of d8 might be enough for some players to atone. The player might get angry, and take that next step to Oathbreaker, or turn to another god for his power.

Just some thoughts anyway.

[CaptainSarathai]

Essentially I agree with this, though I have a few concerns

Oath Spells
Don't really know about the spells, could be ok, or not. (shrug). I would actually prefer not having oath spells at all, since you are technically oathless. Could use something like the suggested Fast Hands in the other thread: "You can use a bonus action to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check to try to stabilize a dying companion or to use your Lay on Hands on a companion (but maybe not on yourself). In addition, your proficiency bonus is doubled for all Wisdom (Medicine) checks."
The only problem with this in my opinion, is that all Pally Oaths are built around having Oath Spell, and taking those is a problem. That's 2 spells per "level" that the Paladin always has prepped. They can only prep Cha+.5PalLvl, so at 20th, those extra 6 spells are accounting almost 25% of their prepped spells.
So what are you going to take that scales to be equal to that? Better to just stay consistent and give them Oath Spells.


Channel Divinity
Usually, if you look at all the other oaths, the options are: one offensive or defensive and one for control, not two offensive/defensive options.
That said, Penitent Wrath seems appropriate. I like that. Falls squarely into the offensive category.
Repentant Smite, on the other hand, is waaay too powerful. That could be what, potentially 20d10 (40d10 with a critical hit) extra radiant damage (even though you take half of it yourself doesn't really make it any less overpowered). I'd replace this with Channel Divinity option for control.
I can see that. Maybe something like the Swordmage from 4e then? If an enemy within 15' targets a friendly, you can use your Channel Divinity as a Result; move adjacent to the enemy and change the target of the attack to yourself.


Selfless Sacrifice
Nice, very appropriate and flavorful in my opinion. Keep it. In fact, this could even be the second Channel Divinity option. Though you would need another ability for 7th level.
This is actually the 7th level ability for the Crown Oath, verbatim. I don't think that the developers even consider it "CD Worthy."


Grim Resolve
This is like the half-orc's racial, but prolonged to 1 minute. Flavorful, I admit, but maybe a bit too strong. I might cut the duration to 1 round instead (until the end of your next turn), and increase the required failures to kill you by one.
That's an easy fix. Consider it done. The first time you hit zero, you can stay up for an extra round, and don't need to roll a Death Save during this round.


Blade of the Martyr
My initial reaction to this was "whoa, that Repentant Smite was already powerful, but if there were Nobel price for being overpowered, this would win it." but then I came to realize that yes, you might actually die from it. In fact. I think you could actually just die after you've used this. No randomized guessing by rolling damage to yourself; instead, you just drop dead afterwards.
YEP! You just die. The only way you survive this is if you rolled your HP and scores above average and/or you maxed out your Con to 20 and haven't taken any HP damage yet.
If you haven't earned your redemption by 20th level, this is set up to allow you to have that last, self-sacrificing blaze-of-glory round and end then character's story with a real heroic sacrifice.

[Arkhios]

The only problem with this in my opinion, is that all Pally Oaths are built around having Oath Spell, and taking those is a problem. That's 2 spells per "level" that the Paladin always has prepped. They can only prep Cha+.5PalLvl, so at 20th, those extra 6 10 spells are accounting almost 25% 40% of their prepped spells.
So what are you going to take that scales to be equal to that? Better to just stay consistent and give them Oath Spells.
I suppose...


I can see that. Maybe something like the Swordmage from 4e then? If an enemy within 15' targets a friendly, you can use your Channel Divinity as a Result; move adjacent to the enemy and change the target of the attack to yourself.
Something like that could certainly work. Maybe reword it so that when an ally within range is target of an effect that doesn't also affect you, you rush to your ally to be the target instead. Call it a Penitent Sacrifice or something, maybe?


This is actually the 7th level ability for the Crown Oath, verbatim. I don't think that the developers even consider it "CD Worthy."
Oh, oops. You're right. I forgot that.


That's an easy fix. Consider it done. The first time you hit zero, you can stay up for an extra round, and don't need to roll a Death Save during this round.
That's better.


YEP! You just die. The only way you survive this is if you rolled your HP and scores above average and/or you maxed out your Con to 20 and haven't taken any HP damage yet.
If you haven't earned your redemption by 20th level, this is set up to allow you to have that last, self-sacrificing blaze-of-glory round and end then character's story with a real heroic sacrifice.
I meant that you could just reword it so that when the duration ends, you die. No point of calculating your remaining hit points, when you're already taking an insane amount of damage. On average, that's enough to drop you unconscious (though not dead immediately, actually, since you need to take twice the amount of you maximum hit points to die instantly from damage), so an actual death - no matter what - is a whole lot more appropriate for a 20th level feature for an oath like this. I think you could even add that if you make a critical hit, the damage from divine smite is tripled instead of doubled.

[djreynolds]

I like the concept.

1. I think if this happens to you... its permanent, Unforgiven yet you are still in your heart striving to be a paladin and fulfill your original oath

2. I like the idea of this paladin being able to use warding bond, "to atone... I must suffer for others"

3. You get protection style

4. You get reckless attack

I love the concept... I just want this paladin sort of emotionally twisted

5. He can lay on hands, but it comes out of his HP pool.

6. He can smite, but it comes out of his HP pool

[Arkhios]

6. He can smite, but it comes out of his HP pool

I guess you meant HD pool? Not equal trade in terms of dice, but flavorful.

(This could actually work for a no-spell variant as the way to smite; although a smite with HD could probably just use dice equal to the HD. There would have to be a clause for how many HD you could expend at once, so that you couldn't just blow all 20d10 HD in one hit at 20th level)

[djreynolds]

I guess you meant HD pool? Not equal trade in terms of dice, but flavorful.

(This could actually work for a no-spell variant as the way to smite; although a smite with HD could probably just use dice equal to the HD. There would have to be a clause for how many HD you could expend at once, so that you couldn't just blow all 20d10 HD in one hit at 20th level)

Well I like the idea of HD pool even better, but no I was saying you can lose 1d8 of your HP and smite with that.

This guy so badly... still wants to be a paladin. But everything paladin like he does... he hurts.

You can lay on hands with your own hit points

This by far your best concept, it is really cool

I feel like giving this guy something akin to arcane ward. And temporary HP, a pool of real hp and temporary hp and out of that he can smite and lay on hands.

[Arkhios]

Well I like the idea of HD pool even better, but no I was saying you can lose 1d8 of your HP and smite with that.

This guy so badly... still wants to be a paladin. But everything paladin like he does... he hurts.

You can lay on hands with your own hit points

This by far your best concept, it is really cool

I feel like giving this guy something akin to arcane ward. And temporary HP, a pool of real hp and temporary hp and out of that he can smite and lay on hands.

Yeah, I meant HD for Smites only. HP for Lay on Hands works.

Thanks, I got the idea from you, though.

I agree, a way to have temporary hit points or even temporary hit dice that could be used for either smites or THP might be necessary.

PS. This thread might have to be moved to Homebrew subforum soon :smallbiggrin:

[djreynolds]

Yeah, I meant HD for Smites only. HP for Lay on Hands works.

Thanks, I got the idea from you, though.

I agree, a way to have temporary hit points or even temporary hit dice that could be used for either smites or THP might be necessary.

PS. This thread might have to be moved to Homebrew subforum soon :smallbiggrin:

It has real flavor, just the idea. This is what I want out of classes.... it just expands homebrew games.

CoS isn't about combat, but just how everything went wrong and trying to set it right

Like a paladin bitten by a werewolf, who must atone and cure himself.... but has no access to his god.

Its not the best movie, but The Prophecy, were the cop was a priest prior, that's what this reminds me of. His access to his oath/deity if closed... but he still follows his way.

It could be Oath of the Unforgiven, though I like Oathless better

Honestly, IMO, the whole idea is awesome... I'd see what Sage Advice says, get some well deserved credit, I could definitely see this in a new UA.

[Arkhios]

It has real flavor, just the idea. This is what I want out of classes.... it just expands homebrew games.



How about this:

Lay on Hands alternative:
You can share your own vitality with those you touch. You can share your hit points up to 5 x your paladin level with a touch. When you do so, you take damage equal to the amount of hit points you give to your target. In return, you gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of damage you took. You can spread these hit points however you wish, and unlike normal, the temporary hit points gained in this manner stack with each other, up to the maximum of your total hit points.

Sacrifical Smite (replaces Divine Smite)
Starting from 2nd level, when you hit with a melee weapon attack, you can choose to expend hit dice and deal equal amount of extra radiant damage.
At 2nd level, you can expend up to 2 hit dice. (2d10 ≈ 11 dmg) vs. (2d8 ≈ 9 dmg)
At 5h level you can expend up to 3 hit dice. (3d10 ≈ 16 dmg) vs. (3d8 ≈ 13 dmg)
At 9th level you can expend up to 4 hit dice. (4d10 ≈ 22 dmg) vs. (4d8 ≈ 18 dmg)
At 13th level you could deal 5d8 (≈ 22) damage with Divine Smite, so Sacrificial Smite doesn't improve any further.
Against fiends and undead your smites deal additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

Improved Smite:
At 11th level, all your melee weapon attacks deal additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier. This means that your Sacrificial Smite deals extra radiant damage equal to twice your Charisma modifier instead of once against fiends and undead.

[CaptainSarathai]

This by far your best concept, it is really cool




Honestly, IMO, the whole idea is awesome... I'd see what Sage Advice says, get some well deserved credit, I could definitely see this in a new UA.

Not to be petty, but if you're talking about the Oath of the Penitent, with Warding Bond, Reckless Strike, etc - that was my creation. Arkhios just offered some good suggestions to improve it, and started the thread.




Lay on Hands alternative:
You can share your own vitality with those you touch. You can share your hit points up to 5 x your paladin level with a touch. When you do so, you take damage equal to the amount of hit points you give to your target. In return, you gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of damage you took. You can spread these hit points however you wish, and unlike normal, the temporary hit points gained in this manner stack with each other, up to the maximum of your total hit points.

Sacrifical Smite (replaces Divine Smite)
Starting from 2nd level, when you hit with a melee weapon attack, you can choose to expend hit dice and deal equal amount of extra radiant damage.
At 2nd level, you can expend up to 2 hit dice. (2d10 ≈ 11 dmg) vs. (2d8 ≈ 9 dmg)
At 5h level you can expend up to 3 hit dice. (3d10 ≈ 16 dmg) vs. (3d8 ≈ 13 dmg)
At 9th level you can expend up to 4 hit dice. (4d10 ≈ 22 dmg) vs. (4d8 ≈ 18 dmg)
At 13th level you could deal 5d8 (≈ 22) damage with Divine Smite, so Sacrificial Smite doesn't improve any further.
Against fiends and undead your smites deal additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

Improved Smite:
At 11th level, all your melee weapon attacks deal additional radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier. This means that your Sacrificial Smite deals extra radiant damage equal to twice your Charisma modifier instead of once against fiends and undead.

Firstly, I didn't change anything that was strictly a Paladin feature; it's a new Oath/Subclass, not an entirely new class. No other subclasses directly replace class features, and I think that's a little odd - you would have a "normal" Smite and LoH until 3rd level, at which point they are overwritten.

Alternative LoH - initially, I thought that this was strictly worse, until I realized that, where a regular Paladin can only LoH 5xLvl per Long Rest, this Paladin can cut themselves for healing all day long. That's the only way that this might be comparable to a regular LoH.
Still, it's changing a Class Feature, which is why I'd rather not change it.

Sacrificial Smite - originally, the second Channel Divinity was set up to do a similar thing. I had the same thought, just change Improved Divine Smite to allow an HP->Damage trade, but again, I don't want to change core Class abilities.
This is definitely worse than regular Smite though. It uses the same progression of +d8s as you'd get from burning slots, but you're blowing Hit Dice to do it. Considering at 5th level, you have enough Spell Slots to burn 6 Smites for a total of +14d8 damage, this lets you throw +5d8.
If the point is that a Paladin who forsakes his Oath maybe shouldn't get Divine Spells any more, why are you letting him Smite and still keep his spell slots?

Improved Smite - another instance of changing the core Class abilities, and again, making it a little weaker. The problem is that +d8 =/= +Cha.
The average of 1d8 is +4.5, so unless an already MAD class gets to 20Cha, you're lagging behind the average. +Cha also doesn't double with Criticals, like an extra D8 would.

I think that part of the problem is that people want Paladins who fall to become a new class altogether and overwrite their original class. Sort of like a non-divine Paladin. Maybe, it's alright with that group for this class to be weaker than the original Paladin, a sort of "a-HA! That's what you get for breaking oaths!"
I disagree with that. I think that if - at the worst - you force a character into an entirely new class, that class shouldn't be punitively worse, or else players will either just get themselves killed, or avoid played Paladins altogether, or stifle themselves to avoid playing a worse class, or just hate their DM for stuffing their character into a bag.

[Arkhios]

Firstly, I didn't change anything that was strictly a Paladin feature; it's a new Oath/Subclass, not an entirely new class. No other subclasses directly replace class features, and I think that's a little odd - you would have a "normal" Smite and LoH until 3rd level, at which point they are overwritten.

Alternative LoH - initially, I thought that this was strictly worse, until I realized that, where a regular Paladin can only LoH 5xLvl per Long Rest, this Paladin can cut themselves for healing all day long. That's the only way that this might be comparable to a regular LoH.
Still, it's changing a Class Feature, which is why I'd rather not change it.

Sacrificial Smite - originally, the second Channel Divinity was set up to do a similar thing. I had the same thought, just change Improved Divine Smite to allow an HP->Damage trade, but again, I don't want to change core Class abilities.
This is definitely worse than regular Smite though. It uses the same progression of +d8s as you'd get from burning slots, but you're blowing Hit Dice to do it. Considering at 5th level, you have enough Spell Slots to burn 6 Smites for a total of +14d8 damage, this lets you throw +5d8.
If the point is that a Paladin who forsakes his Oath maybe shouldn't get Divine Spells any more, why are you letting him Smite and still keep his spell slots?

Improved Smite - another instance of changing the core Class abilities, and again, making it a little weaker. The problem is that +d8 =/= +Cha.
The average of 1d8 is +4.5, so unless an already MAD class gets to 20Cha, you're lagging behind the average. +Cha also doesn't double with Criticals, like an extra D8 would.

I think that part of the problem is that people want Paladins who fall to become a new class altogether and overwrite their original class. Sort of like a non-divine Paladin. Maybe, it's alright with that group for this class to be weaker than the original Paladin, a sort of "a-HA! That's what you get for breaking oaths!"
I disagree with that. I think that if - at the worst - you force a character into an entirely new class, that class shouldn't be punitively worse, or else players will either just get themselves killed, or avoid played Paladins altogether, or stifle themselves to avoid playing a worse class, or just hate their DM for stuffing their character into a bag.

I knew I should've stated more clearly that those replacements I suggested above could work if an Oathless wouldn't get spells (and therefore spell slots) at all - not a sub-class anymore, but a spell-less variant like a ranger had.
I didn't because I thought it was obvious. Apparently not. I didn't mean to undermine your Oath of the Penitent. I'm sorry, if it felt like that. Instead, I figured that djreynolds was talking about something else, to which I responded separately.

Overall, no need to get all riled up because of that.

[djreynolds]

Its cool. I like the whole concept. Both of you, CaptainSarathai, should throw this to sage advice.

[Arkhios]

Oh, and CaptainSarathai. I don't want any credit for your efforts, but your Oath of the Penitent could deserve Sage Advice scale of review. Even if you used my suggested fixes, I want nothing of it :)

[CaptainSarathai]

Oh, and CaptainSarathai. I don't want any credit for your efforts, but your Oath of the Penitent could deserve Sage Advice scale of review. Even if you used my suggested fixes, I want nothing of it :)

Well thank you. I didn't mean to sound sore over that, because I really wasn't. I'm just new here, I'm trying to build a rapport.


I knew I should've stated more clearly that those replacements I suggested above could work if an Oathless wouldn't get spells (and therefore spell slots) at all - not a sub-class anymore, but a spell-less variant like a ranger had.
I didn't because I thought it was obvious. Apparently not. I didn't mean to undermine your Oath of the Penitent. I'm sorry, if it felt like that. Instead, I figured that djreynolds was talking about something else, to which I responded separately.

Overall, no need to get all riled up because of that.

That makes more sense then. You're suggestion is that they lose their spells altogether, and it's a full variant. Is the intention still to drop "failed" Paladins out of their original class and into the new variant? If that's the case, I think you could make a lot of the stuff remain very mechanically similar, except change it so that the further progression requires more sacrifice. For example:

A Life for a Life (Lay on Hands) -
Beginning at 3rd level, or whenever you are determined to have fallen from your Oath, your pool of Lay on Hands healing no longer increases with your Paladin level.
Instead, you gain the ability to grant any nonhostile creature within 5' of yourself a special boon, lasting for 1 hour. The boon grants the target a special source of Temporary HitPoints, which may stack with other sources of THP. While the creature has these temporary hit points, your own hit points are permanently reduced. The maximum amount of hit points gained/lost is equal to 5x your Paladin level.
By your original wording, a Paladin could harm himself, create temp HP for the party, and then quaff a healing potion or have the Cleric "top him up" back to full health.
By wording it as a "permanent reduction" while the boon is active, you negate this ability.
-I played the nasty Vampire/Artificer party combo in 4e, where the Artificer created health potions for the party using the Vampire's recoverable HP. It was broken

Smite -
You may Smite a number of times per day equal to your Charisma Modifier. Your Divine Smite deals 2d8 [Type*] damage. Beginning at 5th level, you may expend Hit Dice from your pool, up to 1/3 of your Paladin level (rounded down). For each die expended this way, your Smite deals an additional 1d8 damage.
It makes sense that this might no longer be Radiant Damage, which usually has certain "sacred" connotations

Improved Divine Smite
I would actually keep it at an additional D8. Paladins get a bit "thin" after 6th/7th level, and this is really the last good reason to keep advancing beyond that. Especially without spells to gain.
I would, however, rule that instead of increased damage against Undead and Fiends, the Paladin may choose 2 other creature types following the rules for the Hunter Ranger.
Perhaps rename the feature to Crusader's Smite in order to drive home that the Paladin's "conviction" really just comes from zealously persecuting whatever they perceive to be evil - whether that's Goblinoids, Dragons, Outsiders, or Fey.
--

In all, I think some utility should be gained after losing their magic. Really, all these suggestions weaken Smite, and don't exactly improve LoH. So what is the Paladin really getting to make up for the loss of their spells?
I don't know that I would consider "+Damage" or "+Melee" to really be the answer. Paladins are pretty serious hitters already, and Improved Crit is a wet-dream for any Pally (Smite is, conversely, the truest desire of a Champion Fighter).
I know most Paladins use their spells as Smite-Fuel, but that's still Smite Fuel that doesn't require hurting yourself. So maybe BatMaster Maneuvers really are the best option for a similar "like magic, but not" option, although I think that proper BatMastsr Fighters make have an issue with losing their exclusivity.

[Arkhios]

This may well have been a ridiculous idea, but my idea was that a spell-less paladin could fuel his smites with his own life-force, channeling part of his convinced soul into the attacks, justifying(?) the radiant damage equal to hit dice (d10 instead of d8, albeit with the price being losing hit dice in the process). I'm aware it wouldn't be equal to the amount of total smites but the damage per smite would be roughly equal.

Besides, if you're not fully capable paladin, how could you smite as often as them.

[djreynolds]

The concept is awesome. It has real flavor.

I really like the new stuff from the UA, I like the concepts... the stories attached.

Storm herald is cool.. right

The Oathless... that's cool. How did you lose you paladinhood? Can you get it back?

What must Captain Miller do in Saving Private Ryan?

John Proctor in the Crucible, has to die to regain his wife's love.

Does the Oathless have to die, and then gets resurrected by his deity having fulfilled his Oath?

Who knows, but this is where good homebrew stuff comes from and even Ravenloft had its incarnation.

I like that the paladin uses his own life force to still fulfill his oath, still steadfast

Its why paladins are tough to play, legitimately, because they are more than just save bonuses and smiting.

They are troubled souls to begin with.

Could the bad guy in 7even be considered paladin-esque?