Using wish to bring an enemy to us

[Ecliptic]

My group has an enemy with an army who destroyed a bunch of our stuff. We want to take him out without his army backing him up. We have a wish spell... I know Gate could probably bring him to us... but it's a level 9 spell. Any other good ideas on how to accomplish this with a wish?

Thanks

[gartius]

Wish for a magic item... like a scroll of gate

edit: apologies. missed the pf tag.

what creatures can have gate as a spelllike ability? Gate Archon. use wish to cast greater planar binding- this gets you a HD of 18 and Gate archons have 17 HD.

[Psyren]

I know Gate could probably bring him to us...

He'd have to be on a different plane from you for this, and also, Gate can't force unique individuals to come to you in any event (which most BBEGs are.)


Any other good ideas on how to accomplish this with a wish?

Wish can do this but has to beat their saving throw and SR, which the GM can just fudge.

Have you asked your GM whether they want you to be able to do this? Most GMs probably take a dim view of you yanking their main villain through the ether, and even if you succeed you might just end up wiping the party as a result.

[Ecliptic]

Casting a gate spell has two effects. First, it creates an interdimensional connection between your plane of existence and a plane you specify, allowing travel between those two planes in either direction.

Second, you may then call a particular individual or kind of being through the gate.

Could you not specify your own plane? Particular individual seems like you can choose a particular person, no?

Our gm is fine with creative answers to the situations we find ourselves in. We have a single wish on a luck blade, so it's not something we could easily replicate in the future. We are only level 11.

:)

[TheFamilarRaven]

Plane shift to a relatively safe plane. Open a gate next to the BBEG, physically force the BBEG trough the gate to the plane your on. Close gate. Proceed with the smack down.

EDIT: for some reason I read the OP as having access to Gate

Post edit: but yeah, if you can planar bind a creature that can cast Gate, the above would work.

[Ecliptic]

Wish for a magic item... like a scroll of gate

edit: apologies. missed the pf tag.

what creatures can have gate as a spelllike ability? Gate Archon. use wish to cast greater planar binding- this gets you a HD of 18 and Gate archons have 17 HD.


Gate Archon idea seems pretty awesome... and, if we can get more than one, the extra(s) could anchor and dispel him ;)

[Psyren]

Could you not specify your own plane? Particular individual seems like you can choose a particular person, no?

Our gm is fine with creative answers to the situations we find ourselves in. We have a single wish on a luck blade, so it's not something we could easily replicate in the future. We are only level 11.

:)

You can specify a unique individual but they can simply refuse:


Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.

So it's up to your GM whether this will work.

[Ecliptic]

By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.


I interpret this as... you can gate in an unwilling individual... but dieties and unique beings (as in entities or creatures that are unique, not as in unique individuals) can choose not to come. So, if the guy in question is a regular old elf or human, even if he's level 20, he isn't a unique being. At least, that's how I interpret it.

I think the major difference is between unique and particular. Particular, non-unique beings get pulled through the gate regardless of their will...

The tarrasque, for example, would be a unique being that is not a diety... but bbeg level 20 orc necromancer would not.

[RoboEmperor]

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.


Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by spells.

Wish that a giant comet somewhere in space teleports above him and his army.

[Psyren]

I interpret this as... you can gate in an unwilling individual... but dieties and unique beings (as in entities or creatures that are unique, not as in unique individuals) can choose not to come. So, if the guy in question is a regular old elf or human, even if he's level 20, he isn't a unique being. At least, that's how I interpret it.

I interpret it as: you can name "A balor" and get a balor (willing or unwilling.) But "Bob the Balor I had drinks with last Thursday" can refuse.



The tarrasque, for example, would be a unique being that is not a diety... but bbeg level 20 orc necromancer would not.

What makes the Tarrasque unique is that there is only one of it. But then, there is also only one Xykon, necromancer lich BBEG. I would say neither of them are eligible for automatic gating.

We may have to agree to disagree here. In any event, the important thing is how your GM interprets it, not me or you.

[Ecliptic]

I guess we just have to agree that much of dnd is open to interpretation.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me (personally) in that interpretation, because it ignores the "particular being". Also, it doesn't make sense to me that a named balor could refuse but a random balor could not. The only difference is that one is named and one is not - the random balor could be stronger than the particular one that I am trying to gate in. The tarrasque is unique as a creature... there is no other being like it... but xykon is not unique - there are other necromancer liches in the world.

*shrug*

Thanks for your opinions though:D

[RoboEmperor]

I guess we just have to agree that much of dnd is open to interpretation.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me in that interpretation, because it ignores the "particular being". Also, it doesn't make sense to me that a named balor could refuse but a random balor could not. The only difference is that one is named and one is not - the random balor could be stronger than the particular one that I am trying to gate in. The tarrasque is untie as a creature... there is no other being like it... but xykon is not unique - there are other necromancer liches in the world.

*shrug*

Thanks for your opinions though:D

It's not a rules of the world thing, it's a balance thing. D&d is full of stuff like that. Summons for example, how come they don't die, how come they have very specific restrictions compared to called creatures, how come they fight for you for no reason, etc.

The inability of calling in named creatures is precisely for this case. Think if your roles are reversed. Let's say some guy gates YOU in and makes YOU slaughter your own people. It's not fair, so the no unique being thing is in place to stop things like this. You can call in a Balor, but you can't call in the Balor that is the final boss of this entire campaign and have him do your bidding, otherwise it is too OP.

[icefractal]

Wish already does this exact thing, unless I'm missing something? As pointed out earlier in the thread:

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

That does have a Will save. Would you really want it not to though? Otherwise the PCs are just as susceptible to it, and conflicts between people capable of using Wish degenerate into "first to do it wins".


Also, it doesn't make sense to me that a named balor could refuse but a random balor could not.My explanation would be that the target always gets a save (if even Wish does, why wouldn't Gate?), but that if you're just trying for an arbitrary Balor, then it will keep trying different Balors until one of them fails a save. The DC doesn't really matter because there are enough Balors in existence that one of them will roll a nat-1.

[John Longarrow]

Ecliptic

What can you tell us about your BBEG? They have an army, but what abilities do they themselves have? This can be much more important than just pulling them to you with a wish. If they have teleport at will you'll need to do a lot more to keep them there than if they are just a big bad sword wielder.

The more we know the better we can advise. If they have nothing that would otherwise help them, fly out over the ocean before bringing them to you and watch them drown.

[Ecliptic]

Not exactly sure ... but he's a level 20+ elf antipaladin/sorcerer of some sort. Blackguard maybe. It's another reason that summoning more than 1 Archon would be useful - the second could put a dimensional anchor on him

[Psyren]

but xykon is not unique - there are other necromancer liches in the world.


So you could go to another plane, Gate Xykon there, and have him do whatever you want with no save? You don't see why the designers might be against that?

And as mentioned, what is sauce for the PCs is sauce for the NPCs. What's to stop the next Big Bad from hopping to another plane and Gating you there, then fully controlling you with no save? Would you be okay with your character becoming an NPC like that?

[TheFamilarRaven]

You don't need two gate archons. You just need to get the BBEG through the gate. Then the archon can cast Dimensional anchor next round. Two would make it easier, sure. But it's not necessary.

Also, what's the party look like? It seems as though you are caster starved, (or at least lacking prepared casters) if you need to rely on an extra-planar for dimensional anchor at 11th level.

Edit: buying a scroll of dimensional anchor might be more cost effective than two gate archons, if you can even manage gate archons.

[Ecliptic]

So you could go to another plane, Gate Xykon there, and have him do whatever you want with no save? You don't see why the designers might be against that?

And as mentioned, what is sauce for the PCs is sauce for the NPCs. What's to stop the next Big Bad from hopping to another plane and Gating you there, then fully controlling you with no save? Would you be okay with your character becoming an NPC like that?

Fair enough. I was just interpreting the words and basing it off of cool factor (using our wish in a cool way to get revenge, etc.) But the interpretation would be problematic once we have easier access to the spell, or just because future enemies might use it against us.


If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual, you may call either a single creature or several creatures. In either case, their total HD cannot exceed twice your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD does not exceed your caster level. A creature with more HD than your caster level can't be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event.

More from the spell description that makes it a bit confusing. Seems implied that the normal use of the spell is to call a "known individual"... you just can't control it if it has more HD than you do. The fact that they mention dieties and unique beings in the last sentence implies that "known individuals" are not the same thing as "unique beings"


You don't need two gate archons. You just need to get the BBEG through the gate. Then the archon can cast Dimensional anchor next round. Two would make it easier, sure. But it's not necessary.

Also, what's the party look like? It seems as though you are caster starved, (or at least lacking prepared casters) if you need to rely on an extra-planar for dimensional anchor at 11th level.

Edit: buying a scroll of dimensional anchor might be more cost effective than two gate archons, if you can even manage gate archons.

Planar binding (greater) summons 3 creatures... the anchor is in the case that more than 1 fail their save.

Planar binding also only allows you to give he summoned being one command. Once it's fulfilled, the being returns to wherever it came from (thus the need for multiple archons).

It's a fairly large group - we have a cleric and a couple sorcerers (I'm melee myself) - I'm sure one of them could use the anchor - figure an archon has the highest chance to succeed ;)

[Crake]

So you could go to another plane, Gate Xykon there, and have him do whatever you want with no save? You don't see why the designers might be against that?

And as mentioned, what is sauce for the PCs is sauce for the NPCs. What's to stop the next Big Bad from hopping to another plane and Gating you there, then fully controlling you with no save? Would you be okay with your character becoming an NPC like that?

Easy solution to this problem (in 3.5 anyway) is the naturalized denizen feat which makes you never have the extraplanar subtype, becoming completely immune to gate. Alternatively, hiding out on the astral plane, where no creatures have the extraplanar subtype is also an option. Or you know, just hanging out in either a dimensionally locked, or forbiddanced area, making planar travel impossible, including being gated.

By the time gate becomes an option, protecting yourself from gate is a pretty easy fix. My only question is why not just use the transport travellers option of wish and be done with it? Sure, it has a chance of failure, but that just makes it more interesting, and more likely that the DM won't simply handwave it as "He has protections in place" (because there are no protections from it).

[Jack_Simth]

My group has an enemy with an army who destroyed a bunch of our stuff. We want to take him out without his army backing him up. We have a wish spell... I know Gate could probably bring him to us... but it's a level 9 spell. Any other good ideas on how to accomplish this with a wish?

Thanks
With Wish (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/wish.html)?

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
It's not sure-fire (BBEG gets a save - and if you're not casting it yourself, the DC is likely pretty pitiful), but that's what you get in the 'standard' options for it.

How much optimization would you like to use?


I guess we just have to agree that much of dnd is open to interpretation.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me (personally) in that interpretation, because it ignores the "particular being". Also, it doesn't make sense to me that a named balor could refuse but a random balor could not. The only difference is that one is named and one is not - the random balor could be stronger than the particular one that I am trying to gate in. The tarrasque is unique as a creature... there is no other being like it... but xykon is not unique - there are other necromancer liches in the world.

*shrug*

Thanks for your opinions though:D
How I tend to view that:
Somewhere, there's a balor that doesn't want to be where it is. If you just gate in "a balor", then the spell seeks out a random one that will agree to almost anything to get an exit from the current situation it's in (lots of infinite planes, so this probably applies to at least some balors at any given moment). If you ask for the specific balor that holds a lien on your buddy's soul, on the other hand, there's only one Balor that matches the criteria, and it may prefer to stay where it is and not agree to the spell's requirements.

[John Longarrow]

Can your party do some divinations to see if trying to gank him is an option?

Something like "Wish the party to be transported to him for one minute, then returned from when we came" kinda thing? This would let you pre-buff, pop in, and do your best to take him down quickly (hopefully before reinforcements arrive), then return to your base. That also means if someone dies they get brought along for the ride to get raised.

This way if you pull it off he's dead and, hopefully, his army falls to infighting for a while to see who replaces him. It also means if you can't kill him in ten rounds your brought back somewhere to hopefully avoid his retaliation.

[Psyren]

Easy solution to this problem (in 3.5 anyway) is the naturalized denizen feat which makes you never have the extraplanar subtype, becoming completely immune to gate.

Spelltouched Feats are a variant rule and so you'd basically still be asking the GM for permission here. I can't imagine many GMs would be keen on granting you this boon if you've used this tactic on key NPCs in the past.

If it is allowed though, yes, this feat represents a solid defense.

[legomaster00156]

Can your party do some divinations to see if trying to gank him is an option?

Something like "Wish the party to be transported to him for one minute, then returned from when we came" kinda thing? This would let you pre-buff, pop in, and do your best to take him down quickly (hopefully before reinforcements arrive), then return to your base. That also means if someone dies they get brought along for the ride to get raised.

This way if you pull it off he's dead and, hopefully, his army falls to infighting for a while to see who replaces him. It also means if you can't kill him in ten rounds your brought back somewhere to hopefully avoid his retaliation.
Worth noting that that wish is the equivalent of two level 7 spells (Greater Teleport twice) so it is in the "dangerous wish" category.

[Cirtona Pox]

Not exactly sure ... but he's a level 20+ elf antipaladin/sorcerer of some sort. Blackguard maybe. It's another reason that summoning more than 1 Archon would be useful - the second could put a dimensional anchor on him

Your party is level 11. His battle plan will go like this:
Wail of the Banshee = Whole party dead if they fail fort saves.
Failing that...
Power Word Kill on your mage/rogue = dead as fried chicken no save unless they have 101 HP at L11 (doubtful).
Waves of Exhaustion the rest of the party (no saves) so they are all penalized.

In short, this dude (if played adequately) will mop the floor with you right now. Let the campaign progress. You will need the extra levels/equipment. Use your wish to learn his greatest weakness instead.

[Crake]

Your party is level 11. His battle plan will go like this:
Wail of the Banshee = Whole party dead if they fail fort saves.
Failing that...
Power Word Kill on your mage/rogue = dead as fried chicken no save unless they have 101 HP at L11 (doubtful).
Waves of Exhaustion the rest of the party (no saves) so they are all penalized.

In short, this dude (if played adequately) will mop the floor with you right now. Let the campaign progress. You will need the extra levels/equipment. Use your wish to learn his greatest weakness instead.

Better hope he doesn't actually have cleric casting and just cast blasphemy for a 1d10 minute paralysis no save in a 40ft radius spread.

[RoboEmperor]

I gotta say, watching the most OP spell in the game used like this kinda bothers me XD. Seriously, use discern location to find an asteroid/comet/meteor, then wish it on top of the big bad and his army. You'll get so much XP you'll be epic. It'll make your DM think twice about giving your low level party access to the most OP spell in the game again.

I mean, the way you plan on using it will result in TPK for sure. 20+? He's a freaking epic character.

[Deophaun]

Fair enough. I was just interpreting the words and basing it off of cool factor (using our wish in a cool way to get revenge, etc.) But the interpretation would be problematic once we have easier access to the spell, or just because future enemies might use it against us.
Future enemies can still use it against you. "A hero who thwarted my scheme to enspell the king"--assuming your party was responsible for that--qualifies as a kind of creature, yet is not unique, because there are multiple potential targets (assuming this isn't a solo adventure).

[John Longarrow]

someonenoone11

Try actually wording that wish and you'll see just how many ways things can go wrong with it. Very easy for it to either be ineffective OR turn all involved irrevocably evil.

Note: Much easier way to replicate the same effect is to get a bunch of kittens and put them in a sack. PAO each into a sperm whale as you drop it on the enemy camp from 1000' up.

[RoboEmperor]

someonenoone11

Try actually wording that wish and you'll see just how many ways things can go wrong with it. Very easy for it to either be ineffective OR turn all involved irrevocably evil.

Note: Much easier way to replicate the same effect is to get a bunch of kittens and put them in a sack. PAO each into a sperm whale as you drop it on the enemy camp from 1000' up.

I was wrong, you can't use discern location on an object without touching it first, but this is just me being extra careful.

Your way is wrong too. Wish can only replicate PaO once, and PaO is close range.

My wish would be "I wish for an asteroid the size of ___ village/city to drop on top of ___". You don't have to specify the exact asteroid because wish should find one for you but I guess it all depends on the DM.

If you have to know the object, drop an empty castle on top of him. Occupied castles probably require a will save to succeed.

DM might say "Objects are not creatures" but you can debate that using rules about golems and objects as target as spells.

Worst case scenario, find a sperm whale and drop him on top of the BBEG using wish. If you are worried about the whale's will save kill him, turn him into stone, and then drop him, but if the DM is saying that's not a creature I guess just debuff the whale's will save to hell and then drop him, or dominate him and drop him.

edit: Official RAW ruling from d&d glossary says objects are not creatures, so I guess you have to drop the sperm whale on him.

[Braininthejar2]

The wording of the wish...

This wish is on the default list, so it shouldn't be risky. But, it does have a caveat - "from any place to any place" - can you wish someone to you, if you don't know where they are?

[John Longarrow]

Your way is wrong too. Wish can only replicate PaO once, and PaO is close range.

My wish would be "I wish for an asteroid the size of ___ village/city to drop on top of ___". You don't have to specify the exact asteroid because wish should find one for you but I guess it all depends on the DM.



Never said to use the WISH to PAO. Hold kitten over side of rug, cast PAO to sperm whale. You'll be dropping it at that point.

Village or city size rock, moving at the speed of an asteroid... Hmm.. Wonder how much damage that does. If the DM was anything like me the PCs would be suffering for the massive slaughter of innocents. Rock that big tends to leave holes that are massive. A 50m meteor will punch a kilometer across hole in the ground. Reference for size (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Crater) so I'd guess one the size of a village (or city) would punch a much more massive one. Hence why you'd need to be very careful with your wish. Also need to specify which direction and at what speed your rock is moving, along with composition.

Wrong size, wrong speed and you get a Tunguska event. Horrible if this happens in a populated area.

[RoboEmperor]

Never said to use the WISH to PAO. Hold kitten over side of rug, cast PAO to sperm whale. You'll be dropping it at that point.

Village or city size rock, moving at the speed of an asteroid... Hmm.. Wonder how much damage that does. If the DM was anything like me the PCs would be suffering for the massive slaughter of innocents. Rock that big tends to leave holes that are massive. A 50m meteor will punch a kilometer across hole in the ground. Reference for size (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Crater) so I'd guess one the size of a village (or city) would punch a much more massive one. Hence why you'd need to be very careful with your wish. Also need to specify which direction and at what speed your rock is moving, along with composition.

Wrong size, wrong speed and you get a Tunguska event. Horrible if this happens in a populated area.

I figured wish would make it drop like 5ft for the least amount of damage, so it has to be massive, though this is d&d we're talking about so there is a chance the target would puncture through the sperm whale and be fine standing inside its belly. Then again you can specifically wish the sperm whale be 10,000ft directly above the target so it would cause massive damage.

Anyways don't know about pathfinder, but 3.5 made it clear that objects are not creatures, so by RAW, wish can't drop an asteroid on top of a guy.

If you're saying that wish would be perverted so that it causes the most collateral damage... well the OP said the guy is in the middle of his own army so I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

[John Longarrow]

Well, depending on size of asteroid the most collateral damage could be an extinction level event killing off about 99% of all life on the planet. That tends to move the "Acceptable losses" over to "Party is now considered irredeemably evil". It would also be a cure much worse than letting an evil guy with an army go around for a while.

When you start talking about hitting planets with large fast moving objects you have to be really careful with what you are trying to get, what its made of, and how fast it going.

[Jader7777]

Don't wish them to you, wish them into a volcano.

[Angelmaker]

Don't wish them to you, wish them into a volcano.

Your wish is granted. The target was teleported to an inactive volcano.