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ButterPanda888
2016-12-01, 03:31 PM
I was wondering what are some good RPGs with a vast amount of customization and choice when creating and developing characters. It can be class-based like Pathfinder, D&D 3.5, or RIFTS or classless like Mutants and Masterminds, and most generic systems (GURPS, Savage Worlds, etc.). I know I listed several but I am looking for a few things in general:

1. Must have immense character customization.
2. Customization must go beyond just race, class, base stats, and gear. Throw in familiars, mounts, companions, feats, crafting choices, backgrounds, specializations, perks, etc.
3. Must be a game that is generally regarded as fun.

Any help?

braveheart
2016-12-01, 04:05 PM
Mutants and masterminds fits that quite well in my experience, if you can think of a character concept, you can build it in mutants & masterminds

ButterPanda888
2016-12-01, 04:34 PM
Mutants and masterminds fits that quite well in my experience, if you can think of a character concept, you can build it in mutants & masterminds

Yeah, I really like M&M. I make characters in that game just for fun when I get bored.

I should probably list the game I have: FFG's Star Wars Games, Pathfinder, M&M, Savage Worlds, and Vampire the Requiem.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-12-02, 12:42 PM
Uhhh... Exalted 3rd edition? Each of the twenty-some skills have dozens of attendant Charms (standard feat/spell/power/whatever type specialization units) arranged in huge skill trees, essentially. Your character starts with 15 charms, and you can afford another every ~2 sessions. There's a lot more fluff than the games you mentioned, but if you leave it aside you're left with a generic superhuman/demigod-type. The main reason I mention it, though, is the sheer rangeof Charms that are available-- they're not just combat stuff, not even just combat/talking/mobility stuff. Bureaucracy has a Charm set every bit as deep as, say, Stealth. If you want a system to support really unconventional character roles...

ButterPanda888
2016-12-02, 01:07 PM
Uhhh... Exalted 3rd edition? Each of the twenty-some skills have dozens of attendant Charms (standard feat/spell/power/whatever type specialization units) arranged in huge skill trees, essentially. Your character starts with 15 charms, and you can afford another every ~2 sessions. There's a lot more fluff than the games you mentioned, but if you leave it aside you're left with a generic superhuman/demigod-type. The main reason I mention it, though, is the sheer rangeof Charms that are available-- they're not just combat stuff, not even just combat/talking/mobility stuff. Bureaucracy has a Charm set every bit as deep as, say, Stealth. If you want a system to support really unconventional character roles...

That. Sounds. Awesome.

I just googled reviews and previews and such and i think I'm lovin' it.

obryn
2016-12-02, 01:24 PM
So by "customization" you really mean "wide variety of very specific crunchy bits and bobs," right?

Mordar
2016-12-02, 05:35 PM
Does it have to be a current production game, or are legacy products acceptable? If legacy games are considered...

RoleMaster.

No, it isn't "TableMaster", no it isn't too slow or too complex. Yes, it has a learning curve. Yes, you must be able to do arithmetic. Yes, fights can take a while. No, it isn't for everyone.

But it is for people that want 10 human "warrior types" at level 5 to have the ability to be 10 VERY different characters from both a thematic and mechanical basis. You know how Conan is different than Fafherd is different than Strum is different than Aragorn? And that difference is much more than fluff? RoleMaster accommodates all of these.

It is a class-based system (with scores of classes across the standard roles) with dozens of races/variants. It uses 10 attributes and then some derived attributes, and pretty much everything is driven by skills. There is a huge array of skills, encompassing all the standard dungeoneering types, but also with a lot of utility, professional, knowledge, militant, craft and whole-wide-world skills. And a lot of them are important. And very few things are just left up to the "skill monkey" to manage.

Spell lists exist, but they are different than DnD/Pathfinder. You learn from an array of lists, with each spell on the list tied together thematically, and each spell-casting class has access to dozens of spell lists. While there are always certain "standard" choices, you learn multiple lists and will find that 5 spellcasters of the same class at the same level will have very different options available to them. While DnD sort of does that, it generally seems to result in the same "optimized" spell library. Not so in RM.

So, massive customization, lots of post-creation development, nearly endless choice.

Cons: Old game, may have trouble finding resources. Undeserved reputation (IMO) that many people shed when they have the opportunity to play with an experienced GM/group. Might be too much choice for some people...in short, this game has a higher degree of "Need the right people to play" than many others.

- M

Knaight
2016-12-02, 05:54 PM
So by "customization" you really mean "wide variety of very specific crunchy bits and bobs," right?

That's the sense I got, in which case HERO System says hi.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-02, 07:17 PM
For fantasy I like Anima: Beyond Fantasy. It's a class/level system similar to Rolemaster.

Characters have the following bits:
-Attributes (Strength, Dexterity, Agility, Constitution, Intelligence, Power, Willpower, Perception)
-Race (Human, Nephilim [human with a nonhuman soul], Sylvain [light elves], Jayan [three eyed giants], D'anjayni [easy to forget], Ebudan [angelic beings], Danish [beast-halflimgs], and Duk'zarist [dark elves]
-Advantages and Disadvantages
-Class (just a cost template) and level.
-Combat skills (attack and block/dodge)
-Combat Modules (ability to use weapons or techniques) and martial arts.
-Ki Powers and techniques, as well as Nemesis Powers if you have the supplement.
-Magic (including spells known [either bought individually or given by a path], Zeon [MP], Magical Accumulation [Zeon you can call up in a turn], and Magic Projection [ability to use magic]) as well as Metamagic if you're usually certain supplement.
-Summoning abilities (four skills, and runs off that Zeon)
-Psychic Powers (Psychic Points for buying and improving powers as well as keeping some free for flexibility, Psychic Projection)
-Secondary skills (mundane noncombat stuff mainly).

There's also equipment, but it's less important (except for maybe your weapon and armour). Oh, and if you're a summoner either be ready to pick what creatures you want to summon and/or have bound or pick some invocations you can pay the cost of.

slachance6
2016-12-03, 12:16 AM
I know you mentioned it so you might have played it at some point, but GURPS. So much. You can stat up almost literally any character you can imagine due to its point but system and extremely customizable traits. It requires absolutely no pigeonholing your character or the actions they take into the system's constraints, ever. It really can do anything.

That said, that's also the main shortcoming of the game. By default, it's very rules-heavy, but it states in the book that you're not supposed to use all of the rules, just the ones that you think are important enough. The other minor flaw is that the point buy system isn't particularly well-balanced. But no GURPS game I've ever played has been optimization-heavy. When I GM, I don't even really set a concrete point limit, I just set a ballpark and make sure than no character will completely overshadow another. If you have munchkin players, this may be a different story.

RazorChain
2016-12-03, 01:22 AM
I know you mentioned it so you might have played it at some point, but GURPS. So much. You can stat up almost literally any character you can imagine due to its point but system and extremely customizable traits. It requires absolutely no pigeonholing your character or the actions they take into the system's constraints, ever. It really can do anything.

That said, that's also the main shortcoming of the game. By default, it's very rules-heavy, but it states in the book that you're not supposed to use all of the rules, just the ones that you think are important enough. The other minor flaw is that the point buy system isn't particularly well-balanced. But no GURPS game I've ever played has been optimization-heavy. When I GM, I don't even really set a concrete point limit, I just set a ballpark and make sure than no character will completely overshadow another. If you have munchkin players, this may be a different story.

I think the shortcoming of GURPS is GM control, as there are so many supplements with so much stuff that the GM has to clearly define what the game is about and what is allowed and what not.

But what it allows is almost limitless and it all works together in the same system. So if you want to run a steampunk fantasy that happens after a nuclear holocaust with mutants, zombies and old pre holocaust tech then you can do that....want to add supers into the setting, easily done.

It's like a blocks where you build what you want.

Arbane
2016-12-03, 01:49 AM
At the opposite end of the rules-weight spectrum, there's games like RISUS and FATE, where defining a character is as easy as writing things like "Barbarian Hero (4), Bear Shapeshifter (3), Pastry Chef (3)" on a piece of paper.

Knaight
2016-12-03, 03:35 AM
At the opposite end of the rules-weight spectrum, there's games like RISUS and FATE, where defining a character is as easy as writing things like "Barbarian Hero (4), Bear Shapeshifter (3), Pastry Chef (3)" on a piece of paper.

Risus is this simple. FATE varies a bit by incarnation, but even FAE is more complex than this, and that's without getting into the likes of Dresden Files or Diaspora. Neither case fits the criteria that well, although some of the more complex Fate games get close.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-03, 06:57 AM
I think the shortcoming of GURPS is GM control, as there are so many supplements with so much stuff that the GM has to clearly define what the game is about and what is allowed and what not.

But what it allows is almost limitless and it all works together in the same system. So if you want to run a steampunk fantasy that happens after a nuclear holocaust with mutants, zombies and old pre holocaust tech then you can do that....want to add supers into the setting, easily done.

It's like a blocks where you build what you want.

The thing with GURPS is that it plays fine with just the core rules, until you start getting to TL9+, where it just doesn't have all the technology you need (and Ultra Tech is out of print), which is unfortunately where the game starts to excel, but where some advantages start becoming worthless (I'm looking at you Innate Attack). The way to run GURPS is to clearly define what books are allowed, for example the Ultra Tech and Space books, and keep it to a small number.

However, once you've got past that hurdle it just works. Especially at low points values (the corebook recommends 200CP, I recommend 100-150CP for most groups) there's not a lot you can do to be truly overpowered, especially if Exotic and Supernatural advantages are limited. I love GURPS optimisation, but to the point of 'can I build this character in only 100CP plus 50CP of disadvantages?'

I love GURPS to bits, which makes me annoyed that the person I know running it has added a bunch of weird houserules to character creation (I get free increases to my Attributes for my race, and then get a number of free background options varying by race? Just let me take a Racial Template and spend my points how I want!). Normally I'd sit down with a blank sheet, pick a racial template, then spend points to get core concept skills, and then buy advantages and extra skills as I flesh out my background.

Jama7301
2016-12-03, 09:20 AM
I know you mentioned it so you might have played it at some point, but GURPS. So much. You can stat up almost literally any character you can imagine due to its point but system and extremely customizable traits. It requires absolutely no pigeonholing your character or the actions they take into the system's constraints, ever. It really can do anything.



There is a skill for carousing, board games, and two separate skills for fighting with a cloak...

GURPS is crazy.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-03, 09:34 AM
There is a skill for carousing, board games, and two separate skills for fighting with a cloak...

GURPS is crazy.

Heck, there's both Erotic Art and Sex Appeal as skills. Also separate skills if you learnt karate in order to fight or as a combat sport (as I really did). Let's not forget there's separate skills for untrained kicks and punches, trained kicks and punches, and trained punches without kicks (respectively Brawling, Karate, and Boxing). I actually once got a bit of millage out of my character having been taught to fight unarmed (Warhammer Warrior Priest of Sigmar in a WW2-esque setting, he had been taught boxing as part of his training) rather than having just picked it up.

thedanster7000
2016-12-03, 09:34 AM
There is a skill for carousing, board games, and two separate skills for fighting with a cloak...

GURPS is crazy.
I think the mindset you need to go into GURPS with isn't, "Let's read over and carefully consider each skill as a potential option", but rather, "Let's look for skills that suit the character concept I'm going for".

The bottom line is it's there if you need it; while the cloak rules might seem ridiculous if you're going into it expecting a space game, they become a lot more important if playing a game revolving around 16th century Europe.

@AnonymousWizard
Warhammer priests beating Nazis to death with their bare hands sounds like great fun.

Jama7301
2016-12-03, 09:38 AM
I think the mindset you need to go into GURPS with isn't, "Let's read over and carefully consider each skill as a potential option", but rather, "Let's look for skills that suit the character concept I'm going for".

The bottom line is it's there if you need it; while the cloak rules might seem ridiculous if you're going into it expecting a space game, they become a lot more important if playing a game revolving around 16th century Europe.

@AnonymousWizard
Warhammer priests beating Nazis to death with their bare hands sounds like great fun.

My friend had me attempt to make a character, as we were trying to gear up for a game that never materialized, and there really are options for everything. Those are three skills (or 4 I guess) that just stuck out to me to this day. The game's skills, Advantages, and Disadvantages were a bit overwhelming for someone who didn't know what to expect.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-03, 10:05 AM
I think the mindset you need to go into GURPS with isn't, "Let's read over and carefully consider each skill as a potential option", but rather, "Let's look for skills that suit the character concept I'm going for".

Even then you can end up with 30+ skills, the official character sheet really needs more space (I once tried to make a 200CP sci-fi diplomat, and ran out of space for skills before I even got onto their personal quirks). It's the reason why I prefer Fate, it expects me and the players to agree what skills are important (and skills are broad enough that Computers covers all of the GURPS computer skills, like Fight covers all the weapon skills).


@AnonymousWizard
Warhammer priests beating Nazis to death with their bare hands sounds like great fun.

It was fun, but unfortunately there were no Nazis. WW1 and WW2 had been rolled together into the great war against the Skaven (who were sort of a mixture between WW1 Germany and Nazi Germany with some unique Skaven things), and our job was to stop the conspiracies trying to make the war erupt again so that the peace treaty wouldn't be signed. I hope to play in that setting again sometime, I really want to play a Skaven follower of Sigmar who somehow ended being educated in Celestial Wizardry by the colleges of magic. We had to be careful to keep our alchemist well away from Warpstone though (our Skaven already had raging PTSD, and the alchemist was basically a warlock engineer in a human's body).

thedanster7000
2016-12-03, 10:27 AM
Even then you can end up with 30+ skills, the official character sheet really needs more space (I once tried to make a 200CP sci-fi diplomat, and ran out of space for skills before I even got onto their personal quirks).
Yeah, I usually have a separate skills sheet, and they're practically mandatory for wizards.


It's the reason why I prefer Fate, it expects me and the players to agree what skills are important (and skills are broad enough that Computers covers all of the GURPS computer skills, like Fight covers all the weapon skills).
See, that's precisely why I value GURPS' complexity so much. You can be a master of the blade trained specifically in traditional Kenjutsu and possessing a unique fighting strategy that results in a knack for dismembering their foes, rather than some bloke with x Fight skill whose abilities will be matched exactly by the next bloke that comes along with x Fight skill.

I can see the appeal of simplicity and generalisation depending on the game though, and am a fan of Open Legend (http://www.openlegendrpg.com/) (which is completely free, I recommend checking it out), which I find is an elegant midpoint between the two.


It was fun, but unfortunately there were no Nazis. WW1 and WW2 had been rolled together into the great war against the Skaven (who were sort of a mixture between WW1 Germany and Nazi Germany with some unique Skaven things), and our job was to stop the conspiracies trying to make the war erupt again so that the peace treaty wouldn't be signed. I hope to play in that setting again sometime, I really want to play a Skaven follower of Sigmar who somehow ended being educated in Celestial Wizardry by the colleges of magic. We had to be careful to keep our alchemist well away from Warpstone though (our Skaven already had raging PTSD, and the alchemist was basically a warlock engineer in a human's body).
That sounds like great fun, and I have a sudden urge to run something Warhammer-based. It's been too long since I've gamed in the Warhammer setting, probably due to the unnecessary, unpleasant, and unwanted appearance of Age of Sigmar.

ButterPanda888
2016-12-03, 11:09 AM
GURPS is a system I have wanted to use for a while now.

Cluedrew
2016-12-03, 11:17 AM
Yeah, if you looking for raw, mechanically enforced customization options I am pretty sure the answer is:

GURPS[/THREAD]

However if you are also interested in softer customization options* than I think FATE and its aspect system is worth a look. M&M is hard on the mechanics side, but soft on the flavouring for something in between. And those are the ones I know enough about to comment confidently on.

*By soft I mean: Here is a guideline, apply it however you want.

Remedy
2016-12-03, 08:12 PM
Exalted 3e was mentioned upthread, but I also have to give its 2e incarnation a shout-out. Even with the Scroll of Errata (which is pretty much essential), it's not the most balanced game (3e is much, much better in that particular regard) but if you're looking for pure, structured customizability, it's more than you'll get in any non-generic game, and more than you'll get in several of those, too. (I'd put it somewhere below GURPS and above Mutants & Masterminds in character variety potential.) And the real big thing is that the setting supports all of it at once - GURPS has more mechanical ability to emulate just about anything you can think of, but Exalted has done all the work of making an extremely well-crafted, cohesive world where its metaphorical tons of character options can all be brought to bear in the same game, whereas GURPS (as a generic system) requires you to make your own setting and justify everything for yourself, usually to the point where that vast sea of options is shaved down to two or three books' worth in practice.

The main (if not only) advantage 2e Exalted has over 3e Exalted is that 3e is pretty new and doesn't have nearly as much supplemental material as 2e. You can play just about any kind of Solar Exalt you can dream of, and that's as wide a variety as the previous poster made it sound, but that just scratches the surface of the true depths of the setting. In 2e, you could play just as wide a variety of Solar Exalted, champions of the sun with supernaturally perfect capabilities in whatever area they choose, but you could also play: the Terrestrials, the elemental demigods who currently control the world and specialize in supernatural pacts of teamwork and brotherhood; the Lunars, mystical shapeshifters who take the forms of those whose hearts they eat; the Sidereals, heavenly weavers and overseers of fate and masters of cosmic kung fu; the Abyssals, servants of the titans who created and rule the Underworld; the gods, elementals, ghosts, and demons themselves; and so many more varieties of being, each one with just as much potential individual variety as the Solar Exalted have.

Exalted 2e deserves a spot on the shelf of any RPG enthusiast who values character variety and strong worldbuilding. And it's getting ever cheaper to fill up on books from, what with most people having converted to 3e by now.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-12-03, 08:43 PM
Exalted 2e deserves a spot on the shelf of any RPG enthusiast who values character variety and strong worldbuilding. And it's getting ever cheaper to fill up on books from, what with most people having converted to 3e by now.
But jesus christ is it a mechanical mess. It makes 3.5 D&D look functional, and that's saying something.

Khaiel
2016-12-04, 07:04 AM
For fantasy I like Anima: Beyond Fantasy. It's a class/level system similar to Rolemaster.

Characters have the following bits:
-Attributes (Strength, Dexterity, Agility, Constitution, Intelligence, Power, Willpower, Perception)
-Race (Human, Nephilim [human with a nonhuman soul], Sylvain [light elves], Jayan [three eyed giants], D'anjayni [easy to forget], Ebudan [angelic beings], Danish [beast-halflimgs], and Duk'zarist [dark elves]
-Advantages and Disadvantages
-Class (just a cost template) and level.
-Combat skills (attack and block/dodge)
-Combat Modules (ability to use weapons or techniques) and martial arts.
-Ki Powers and techniques, as well as Nemesis Powers if you have the supplement.
-Magic (including spells known [either bought individually or given by a path], Zeon [MP], Magical Accumulation [Zeon you can call up in a turn], and Magic Projection [ability to use magic]) as well as Metamagic if you're usually certain supplement.
-Summoning abilities (four skills, and runs off that Zeon)
-Psychic Powers (Psychic Points for buying and improving powers as well as keeping some free for flexibility, Psychic Projection)
-Secondary skills (mundane noncombat stuff mainly).

There's also equipment, but it's less important (except for maybe your weapon and armour). Oh, and if you're a summoner either be ready to pick what creatures you want to summon and/or have bound or pick some invocations you can pay the cost of.

Let's not forget about Ars Magnus, Metamagic Spheres, Invocations and Encarnations, Sheeles, new supernatural races, Elan...

Anima's main strength is customization.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-04, 10:10 AM
Let's not forget about Ars Magnus, Metamagic Spheres, Invocations and Encarnations, Sheeles, new supernatural races, Elan...

Anima's main strength is customization.

On the downside, it's main weakness is the significant disconnect between the mechanics (heavily combat focused), and the expected playstyle (more puzzle and roleplay focused). I love Anima, but the designers really need to pull together and either bump the inherent importance of Secondary Skills, or rework the game so combat isn't as likely to make you unable to fight for a few days (especially for mages).

I was trying to focus on just the corebook though, as I don't own any of the supplements, just been able to have a glance.

Khaiel
2016-12-04, 10:36 AM
The designer. Singular. Anima is mainly Carlos' work (I believe the only major exception was the Psychic powers chapter in Arcana Exxet).

Core Exxet (not released in English because of FFG) and the supplements do help giving secondary skills more uses. But yes, even with just the Core Rulebook, you already get a ton of options.

Jay R
2016-12-04, 05:53 PM
That's the sense I got, in which case HERO System says hi.

Agreed. It is the most flexible system ever made.

Many people don't like it because arithmetic is involved in character creation. But I love it.

Knaight
2016-12-05, 12:51 AM
Many people don't like it because arithmetic is involved in character creation. But I love it.

That's still not why we don't like it - it's more of a case of the sheer quantity of number crunching both in character creation and the game as a whole causing it to run slowly, and not giving us much we care about in return because things like vast customization via lots of separate bits and bobs isn't that valuable to us. If that's what's being looked for though? Well, there's a reason it's the first recommendation I made.

meschlum
2016-12-05, 03:45 AM
Exalted 3e was mentioned upthread, but I also have to give its 2e incarnation a shout-out. Even with the Scroll of Errata (which is pretty much essential), it's not the most balanced game (3e is much, much better in that particular regard) but if you're looking for pure, structured customizability, it's more than you'll get in any non-generic game, and more than you'll get in several of those, too. (I'd put it somewhere below GURPS and above Mutants & Masterminds in character variety potential.) And the real big thing is that the setting supports all of it at once - GURPS has more mechanical ability to emulate just about anything you can think of, but Exalted has done all the work of making an extremely well-crafted, cohesive world where its metaphorical tons of character options can all be brought to bear in the same game, whereas GURPS (as a generic system) requires you to make your own setting and justify everything for yourself, usually to the point where that vast sea of options is shaved down to two or three books' worth in practice.

The main (if not only) advantage 2e Exalted has over 3e Exalted is that 3e is pretty new and doesn't have nearly as much supplemental material as 2e. You can play just about any kind of Solar Exalt you can dream of, and that's as wide a variety as the previous poster made it sound, but that just scratches the surface of the true depths of the setting. In 2e, you could play just as wide a variety of Solar Exalted, champions of the sun with supernaturally perfect capabilities in whatever area they choose, but you could also play: the Terrestrials, the elemental demigods who currently control the world and specialize in supernatural pacts of teamwork and brotherhood; the Lunars, mystical shapeshifters who take the forms of those whose hearts they eat; the Sidereals, heavenly weavers and overseers of fate and masters of cosmic kung fu; the Abyssals, servants of the titans who created and rule the Underworld; the gods, elementals, ghosts, and demons themselves; and so many more varieties of being, each one with just as much potential individual variety as the Solar Exalted have.

Exalted 2e deserves a spot on the shelf of any RPG enthusiast who values character variety and strong worldbuilding. And it's getting ever cheaper to fill up on books from, what with most people having converted to 3e by now.

Ahem.

2e allowed you to play Fair Folk.

Fair Folk can start the game at more or less any power level - from sub-par mook to replacement GM - and can do it with a fair amount of style and customization. The raw madness is a bonus.

Safety Blanket

Creation is full of terrifying, dangerous things. Exalts, boredom, cold iron halberds, carnivorous lilacs, undead armies, and worse. Since the Fair Folk are in no wise responsible for most of these, they have been forced to learn caution as a result. This is an extremely unpleasant emotion that resides somewhere near the spleen, and often prevents the kind and innocent Raksha from demonstrating their glory to the world. Fortunately, a still nameless Fair Folk devised a means by which this superfluous state of mind could be discarded, weaving a Blanket from the wanderings of a score of children (usually benign growths that are most common in Creation's cities, and only rarely try to eat you alive in non-metaphorical ways).

The proud owner of a Blanket can ignore danger and indulge in whatever impulses might appeal, with one limitation. When the consequences of any actions threaten the owner, they simply need to wrap themselves in the Blanket and are instantly transported to a safe hiding space where nothing bad can reach them. Care is advised when peeking out from under the Blanket, as gravity, wolves, and relatives have been known to linger nearby and wait for a chance to pounce.

Most Blankets are woven from imperfect dreams, and thus are somewhat flawed - this typically manifests as a terrible beast that lurks within the safe spaces of the Blanket, hungrily waiting to devour any toes, notions, or treasures that might stick out. Sleeping within the Blanket is therefore not recommended, unless one has brought sufficient offerings to sate the creature. Candy and illustrated texts depicting the heroic deeds of great cats are especially effective.

Mechanics

1-dot Chancel
By wrapping yourself in the Blanket, the Chancel is activated and you end up in a safe Waypoint. Whatever dangers are present ouside are free to try to affect the Blanket itself, which is an artifact and so very hard to damage - you're not there anymore. Even if it's destroyed, you're simply transported into Pure Chaos, which is unpleasant but not ultimately dangerous (if you're a Fair Folk). This is an extremely basic starting item.


Tome of Stellar Travel

An apparently harmless volume describing the adventures of a glorious hero, the Tome is either an insidious trap or a startling revelation. As the reader discovers the tales it contains and is drawn into the engrossing narrative, they find that the world beyond the Tome no longer corresponds exactly to what they were taught. Certain vegetables take on a poisonous hue that only the reader can perceive. Their mentors and parents let their masks slip and show themselves as the alien beings they truly are. Simple sticks and dolls they have been trained to ignore take on momentous power and identity, becoming weapons and allies against the madness of Creation.

Most are forced to set aside the Tome before they can get deep enough, as their actions are decried as mad. Some, however, hold on to the stories of Spiff's life, and can draw upon them to manipulate the world as it truly is. They grow bold, often devising flying devices and projectile weapons, and can help others see the truth of the Tome. a very few manage to go further before the Wyld Hunt catches them, and warn those they meet of terrible dangers from outside the lie drawn across Creation. The real gods and their plans for this intricate cage are well guarded, however, and the Tome's warnings are usually followed by utter devastation as portions of the world are purged in an attempt to maintain the deception.

By now you have read enough - or perhaps too much - and what you know will forever be slightly flawed. Will you dare go further?

Mechanics

The Tome is a focus for a Principle of Worlds. A low quality version will perform minor changes to reality focused around the reader. Higher quality makes the changes effective and nearly compulsory for everyone in the vicinity. The highest quality possible will result in the local patch of space being reduced to molten bedrock very quickly - hope you have a Blanket! This can be created by a starting character with minimal investment in charms or resources.


Yes, both items above are inspired by other things, and it's possible to make many other, very different things. Typically less powerful - the point here is that you can get this far with a small investment, so you can do a lot of customization!

Kobard
2016-12-05, 05:51 AM
At the opposite end of the rules-weight spectrum, there's games like RISUS and FATE, where defining a character is as easy as writing things like "Barbarian Hero (4), Bear Shapeshifter (3), Pastry Chef (3)" on a piece of paper.Yep.


Risus is this simple. FATE varies a bit by incarnation, but even FAE is more complex than this, and that's without getting into the likes of Dresden Files or Diaspora. Neither case fits the criteria that well, although some of the more complex Fate games get close.How does FATE not meet the criteria? It's easy to pick up a familiar via either aspect or stunt. It's missing specializations, but that's because FATE does not bother with making you wait. If you want to be specialized form of a class or set of options (e.g. a ninja), then just say that you're a ninja as one of your aspects.

But the various incarnations of FATE and its alternate rules is precisely what makes FATE appropriate for GM and player customizing. Because the base chassis of FATE is relatively simple (four kinds of actions, roll), it's easy to customize around that. FATE leans more towards the customization of the mind. If you say you are a geriatric mutant katana-wielding walrus-man, then you are and it's up to the players and GM to decie what that entails through the gameplay itself.

Knaight
2016-12-05, 01:30 PM
How does FATE not meet the criteria? It's easy to pick up a familiar via either aspect or stunt. It's missing specializations, but that's because FATE does not bother with making you wait. If you want to be specialized form of a class or set of options (e.g. a ninja), then just say that you're a ninja as one of your aspects.

I'm not saying it isn't customizable, I'm saying that calling it comparable to Risus in rules complexity is way off. Risus is a game of about 20 pages where characters are rated entirely by a small handful of skills (usually three). FATE varies a bit, but SotC and Dresden Files both have characters with a lot of skills, a lot of aspects, and multiple stunts. Dresden Files then adds several different magic systems.

obryn
2016-12-05, 03:36 PM
I'm not saying it isn't customizable, I'm saying that calling it comparable to Risus in rules complexity is way off. Risus is a game of about 20 pages where characters are rated entirely by a small handful of skills (usually three). FATE varies a bit, but SotC and Dresden Files both have characters with a lot of skills, a lot of aspects, and multiple stunts. Dresden Files then adds several different magic systems.
Fate Core is indeed surprisingly bulky for what's presented as a pretty 'light' game and the various settings significantly ramp up the complexity.

There's more of an argument for Fate Accelerated, though, as as rules-light, simple game.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-12-05, 04:19 PM
How does FATE not meet the criteria? It's easy to pick up a familiar via either aspect or stunt. It's missing specializations, but that's because FATE does not bother with making you wait. If you want to be specialized form of a class or set of options (e.g. a ninja), then just say that you're a ninja as one of your aspects.
Because the OP wants something with a lot of crunch to it, and Fate is a rules-light game? And also because Fate's "vast customization" is largely "Take an aspect and pay a hero point to have it matter," with a strong side note of "Magic? Make it up yourself, plebes." It's a good system for many things, but certainly not if you want mechanical complexity.

Knaight
2016-12-05, 04:27 PM
Because the OP wants something with a lot of crunch to it, and Fate is a rules-light game? And also because Fate's "vast customization" is largely "Take an aspect and pay a hero point to have it matter," with a strong side note of "Magic? Make it up yourself, plebes." It's a good system for many things, but certainly not if you want mechanical complexity.

Again, Dresden Files - which is a Fate game - has an extensive list of stunts, powers tied to stunts, magic systems, etc. There's crunch there.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-12-05, 04:39 PM
Again, Dresden Files - which is a Fate game - has an extensive list of stunts, powers tied to stunts, magic systems, etc. There's crunch there.
That's true. Dresden Files is a pretty fun game. Captures the setting very well, too, down to having notes from the main characters in the margin of the sourcebook.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-05, 05:22 PM
Because the OP wants something with a lot of crunch to it, and Fate is a rules-light game? And also because Fate's "vast customization" is largely "Take an aspect and pay a hero point to have it matter," with a strong side note of "Magic? Make it up yourself, plebes." It's a good system for many things, but certainly not if you want mechanical complexity.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahaha. Great joke.

Oh wait, you're being serious?

Fate is rules-medium, maybe rules-light for FAE. Also, there's more to customisation than Aspects, even in FAE if you want an effect you don't have to pay a Fate Point for take a stunt for it.

Heck, you can do a lot without really moving beyond stunts. Most games shouldn't really need more for magic except for either refluffing or a sorcery skill (which isn't really that much of a big deal, just let it Overcome, Create an Advantage, and Attack like Shoot. Magic shields are Create an Advantage, because it's more interesting).

The main reason I didn't bring it up is because it sounded like the OP wanted something with more details than Fate. Fate is a very powerful game, but it doesn't really care if your laser rifle has a longer range than my blaster rifle or whatever.

Kobard
2016-12-06, 03:31 AM
I'm not saying it isn't customizable, I'm saying that calling it comparable to Risus in rules complexity is way off. Risus is a game of about 20 pages where characters are rated entirely by a small handful of skills (usually three). FATE varies a bit, but SotC and Dresden Files both have characters with a lot of skills, a lot of aspects, and multiple stunts. Dresden Files then adds several different magic systems.True enough. My mistake. In this manner, Fate really represents a series of systems of varying complexity united by some basic core mechanics. Fate Core is definitely more rules-medium, though simple in its basic design. Risus basically just operates around the equivalent of aspects. There are some versions of Fate that reduce your skills past even FAE to simply ranking your aspects.

Segev
2016-12-06, 03:47 PM
Ah, the 2E Fair Folk. I desperately want to play one some day. I have...IDEAS.

To add an item I designed to the mix, the Traveler's Lantern is a tavern. It has a long and storied history in the location it's found, whether nestled between two other buildings on a crowded city street or a lone, sprawling waystation at a crossroards. Regulars have been coming here for years, and are thrilled to see a particular old friend who travels a lot and has arrived for a spell.

Of course, when the owner of the Traveler's Lantern unhooks the eponymous light source from its hook in the center of the ceiling of the common room, and takes it outside, the inn disappears as the last of the customers walk away.

When he hangs it up in a new location, the inn has always been there, surrounding the lantern, and people nearby have oft come to it, and are regulars.

Staffed by some minor fae creations that are old friends to all who come here, the Traveler's Lantern is a wonderful place to stay the night, surrounded by old friends, good food, and simple comforts and security.




As to highly customizable systems, I recommend TriStat dX and BESM 3e. Very similar in structure, they're at least as customizable as GURPS, and while they have fewer books printed for them, the attributes are designed to be modified and morphed to achieve just about any effect you might want.

Telok
2016-12-06, 08:09 PM
That's still not why we don't like it - it's more of a case of the sheer quantity of number crunching both in character creation and the game as a whole causing it to run slowly, and not giving us much we care about in return because things like vast customization via lots of separate bits and bobs isn't that valuable to us. If that's what's being looked for though? Well, there's a reason it's the first recommendation I made.

You know, I never understand the "HERO runs slow" thing. I first encountered it when D&D 3e came out and the speed was comparable. Basic combat was about equal and full on "everything in play" combat was pretty equal. Even recently when I introduced completely new people to it it was faster than the D&D 3.5 and 4e combats we were used to.

Now the sudden inability of some people to do basic multiplication and division during char gen is always inexplicable but I think that's some sort of curse or something.

Anonymouswizard
2016-12-06, 08:53 PM
The thing is, I understand people who dislike complex character creation (I have a friend who can play the game fine but can't deal with learning mechanics in order to create a character, so we help her pick out abilities and calculate points costs), especially when there are games like D&D5e where you might not have to do any maths.

Personally, I prefer it when all the maths I have to do to create my character is addition and subtraction. I can deal with multiplication and division (partially because I carry a calculator 24/7), but it's easier if I don't because i can dedicate more thought to what I want the character to be like.

Anderlith
2016-12-07, 01:59 AM
Unisystem & Savage Worlds deserve a shout out.

Also MERP, its like RollMaster lite.

& Shadowrun, if you can find a way to sever it from its campaign setting

Jay R
2016-12-07, 10:30 AM
You know, I never understand the "HERO runs slow" thing. I first encountered it when D&D 3e came out and the speed was comparable. Basic combat was about equal and full on "everything in play" combat was pretty equal. Even recently when I introduced completely new people to it it was faster than the D&D 3.5 and 4e combats we were used to.

Speaking as a great fan of the Hero Systems, I don't think you're being completely fair to those who don't like it as much as you and I do.

Hero systems bogs down in play if nobody in the group adds up, for instance, 10d6 quickly and efficiently, because that sort of thing comes up often.

And it's not an issue of intelligence, but desire. I couldn't stop myself from adding them up quickly. But I enjoy doing it. It's much slower for people who don't enjoy it.


Now the sudden inability of some people to do basic multiplication and division during char gen is always inexplicable but I think that's some sort of curse or something.

Again, it's not an inability to do it. Anybody who's gone through sixth grade can do the arithmetic of character creation. But I enjoy doing it, and many others don't. That makes it quick, easy, and fun for me, and a long slog for them.

I have one friend with no interest in it, so I build his characters for him. More fun playing with numbers for me, and less annoyance for him. He's a good, intelligent man who writes technical manuals for a living, but he has no desire to deal with the numbers.

But people who don't enjoy fiddling with numbers won't enjoy character creation in Hero, and so it will go slowly for them.

Mordar
2016-12-07, 11:38 AM
Unisystem & Savage Worlds deserve a shout out.

I don't know Unisystem at all, but to me Savage Worlds was always generic, not customizable. To me the difference being that in Savage Worlds, you're just re-skinning an ability to make it seem different than the exact same ability of another character - a Bolt from one character might be fire while another shoots sound...but they both do the same thing in game terms. Now I get that characters can select from a list of skills and powers...but how much variability really exists? [Serious question - I played Deadlands and a tiny bit of SW Explorer's Edition, so maybe its just that my experience is all training wheels].

Maybe the best way to consider from my perspective is how different can 2 (or 10) characters of a given level of experience and given role (within the same game universe) be while still be considered effective player characters?

- M

Knaight
2016-12-07, 03:25 PM
You know, I never understand the "HERO runs slow" thing. I first encountered it when D&D 3e came out and the speed was comparable. Basic combat was about equal and full on "everything in play" combat was pretty equal. Even recently when I introduced completely new people to it it was faster than the D&D 3.5 and 4e combats we were used to.

As someone who doesn't personally like playing HERO (but does respect the system for what it is), I'm just going to put out that I'm perfectly willing to criticize D&D 3.x and 4e for being sluggish as well.

Telok
2016-12-07, 03:55 PM
As someone who doesn't personally like playing HERO (but does respect the system for what it is), I'm just going to put out that I'm perfectly willing to criticize D&D 3.x and 4e for being sluggish as well.

Yeah, I know it's finally all personal opinion and preference. I just have this reaction to math complaints (there are tables, no math needed) and complexity complaints (databases worth of feats).

More and more I'm starting to feel that RPGs are like other cultural stuff, music, books, movies. If you've only ever heard one type of music then other types are hard to understand or enjoy. I was lucky to get introduced to three or four different systems early on, so now I seek out new games and systems and I can use and enjoy a wide variety of them.

Knaight
2016-12-07, 07:09 PM
Yeah, I know it's finally all personal opinion and preference. I just have this reaction to math complaints (there are tables, no math needed) and complexity complaints (databases worth of feats).
Those complaints are there for a reason - HERO involves making a lot of simple calculations, and it's a complex system with a long list of powers, a number of different stats, etc. These criticisms ring hollow when they come from people who exclusively play D&D, but that's not the source of most of these criticisms.


More and more I'm starting to feel that RPGs are like other cultural stuff, music, books, movies. If you've only ever heard one type of music then other types are hard to understand or enjoy. I was lucky to get introduced to three or four different systems early on, so now I seek out new games and systems and I can use and enjoy a wide variety of them.
I'd agree with this. I'd also observe that people who like a wide variety of books, music, and movies still have books, music, and movies they dislike. That's where I'm at with HERO - there's a long list of RPGs that I genuinely like, and HERO just isn't on it.

Jay R
2016-12-07, 10:39 PM
I'd also observe that people who like a wide variety of books, music, and movies still have books, music, and movies they dislike. That's where I'm at with HERO - there's a long list of RPGs that I genuinely like, and HERO just isn't on it.

Thank you. After all the people I hear trashing this game I love for being what it is and not something else, it is so refreshing to see somebody who doesn't like it saying merely that he doesn't like it.

Have fun playing the games you like, and I will do the same.