Thinking of dipping Swashbuckler on my Bard

[stanprollyright]

So my current character has died and been resurrected twice now. I have the option of totally scrapping this character for a new one, but I don't wanna. I can retrain a feat or two, switch some spells, but nothing major. I've recently acquired a keen rapier, and we happen to be pirates, so I thought it might be fun to dip Inspired Blade Swashbuckler next level. I could grab Fencing Grace immediately at 9th, and I'd have a full 7 panache to spend on Dodging Panache, Opportune Parry & Riposte, and Derring-Do is just icing for a skillmonkey. 2nd level gets me Charmed Life. Full BAB and d10 HD is nice. I was originally going to stay Bard or go Arcane Archer, but I never use my shortbow (archery is boring), and I already have ranged options with Weird Words and spells. Not sure about Swashbuckler 3, none of the deeds really stood out to me other than Precise Strike, which won't scale if I don't stay Swashy. Downside is I lose 2-3 levels of Bard.

Current Party: switch-hitter Freebooter Ranger, mad bomber Alchemist, Time Oracle, Ifrit Paladin, Draconic bloodline Bloodrager
Areliss "Banshee" McRey
Human Sound Striker Bard 8
Str 12
Dex 16
Con 12 (14 with belt)
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 20 (22 with headband)

Arcane Strike
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot (might swap for Ability Focus: Wierd Words)
Deadly Aim
Lingering Performance

1st: Grease, Silent Image, Ear-Piercing Scream, Vanish, Windy Escape, Saving Finale, Ventriloquism, Clarion Call
2nd: Glitterdust, Alter Self, Pyrotechnics, Silence, Mirror Image, Eagle's Splendor
3rd: Haste, Charm Monster, Mad Monkeys
Equipment: mstrwk composite shortbow, mstwk longspear, +1 keen rapier, +1 buckler, +1 mithral chain shirt, cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1, belt of con +2, cursed headband of cha +2 (makes me a klepto), coercive gauntlet (from 5e; can add a knockback to magic damage), lesser rod of silent spell, wounding whip

We're using the published version as opposed to the FAQ version (1d8+cha, 1/level). DM ruled that weapon feats work with it, but each individual word costs 1 round of performance. Also he totals up the damage to each character and rolls Fort for half, for the sake of not rolling a whole bunch of saves.
Anyway, thoughts on the future of this character appreciated!

EDIT: As a Bard I guess I could swap Precise Shot for Weapon Finesse, get Dervish Dance at 9, and trade my rapier for a scimitar?

[Geddy2112]

If you never use your bow and you have a keen rapier, I see no reason not to dip inspired blade. Getting fencing grace might be overrated though, as it only adds 2 more damage to your attacks, and the main sell is critfishing and parrying everything. Since your character is eating it a lot, having more parry/riposte chances a turn would probably be better, so I would grab combat reflexes first and pass on fencing grace until your dex bonus is significantly higher than your strength. You can still use your shortbow and weird words, cast spells, and just melee when needed.

Having charmed life with a second swashbuckler level is also nice-adding that CHA bonus to saves to further prevent from dying, and is probably worth the second level dip. A 3rd level dip in swasbuckler is worth if you have maxed intimidate, as menacing swordplay gives you the ability to swift action debuff if you hit. If you don't have maxed intimidate then pass, even with the +2 initiative from swashbuckler initiative. That said, you can just use spells like blistering invective to intimidate everyone, or dirge of doom for no save shaken. Once you have 4th level bard spells exquisite accompaniment will let you have a second performance up, so you can buff and dirge of doom, or dirge of doom+weird words.

I would dip 1 rank in inspired blade and grab combat reflexes. If you are dying to frequently failed saves(fort in particular) or not enough HP, then grab a second. Don't take any more swashbuckler. I would also retrain eagle's splendor for blistering invective if your intimidate is good.

[stanprollyright]

If you never use your bow and you have a keen rapier, I see no reason not to dip inspired blade. Getting fencing grace might be overrated though, as it only adds 2 more damage to your attacks, and the main sell is critfishing and parrying everything. Since your character is eating it a lot, having more parry/riposte chances a turn would probably be better, so I would grab combat reflexes first and pass on fencing grace until your dex bonus is significantly higher than your strength. You can still use your shortbow and weird words, cast spells, and just melee when needed.

Having charmed life with a second swashbuckler level is also nice-adding that CHA bonus to saves to further prevent from dying, and is probably worth the second level dip. A 3rd level dip in swasbuckler is worth if you have maxed intimidate, as menacing swordplay gives you the ability to swift action debuff if you hit. If you don't have maxed intimidate then pass, even with the +2 initiative from swashbuckler initiative. That said, you can just use spells like blistering invective to intimidate everyone, or dirge of doom for no save shaken. Once you have 4th level bard spells exquisite accompaniment will let you have a second performance up, so you can buff and dirge of doom, or dirge of doom+weird words.

I would dip 1 rank in inspired blade and grab combat reflexes. If you are dying to frequently failed saves(fort in particular) or not enough HP, then grab a second. Don't take any more swashbuckler. I would also retrain eagle's splendor for blistering invective if your intimidate is good.

Thanks for the advice!

Eagle's Splendor was definitely going to be traded out soon since it doesn't stack with my belt (but is a better bonus for now). It improves my DCs as well as damage per weird word and most of my skills, plus three other party members are cha-based. I was planning to trade it for Heroism within the next couple levels.

My intimidate is GREAT because of Versatile Performance. Blistering Invective and Menacing Swordplay are cool, but I have Dirge of Doom for auto-shaken, and they don't stack IIRC. Reflex save on Blistering Invective is nice, though, and I could always switch back to Inspire Courage whenever.

Both times I died there were failed saves involved, and the first time it was by 1 HP. Basically I'm way more ballsy than I should be with this character, except she has 7 Wis, so...

[stanprollyright]

Update: sold on Combat Reflexes at 9 and Inspired Blade 2. I'm coming around on Blistering Invective because of action efficiency (demoralizes, does aoe damage, possibly does damage next round and/or forces enemies to use actions extinguishing themselves). I avoided it earlier because of Dirge of Doom and because we have a lot of fire damage in our party, but so far the DM hasn't been using many resistant foes because we fight mostly humanoids. Reflex save adds to its utility, because I think Grease is the only other Reflex spell I have.

But there's still a nagging part of my brain that thinks I could just take weapon finesse and stay a bard...It's better offensively, and if I have a primary role, it's controller.

EDIT: I wish Snowflake Wardance was allowed.

[Geddy2112]

Heroism is a very solid choice for a spell, I would not say you are wrong to take it over blistering invective. The problem with dirge of doom is that while it allows no save, the shaken effect only applies to enemies within 30 feet and only while you perform. If they leave the range or stop performing then the effect instantly ends. It also uses your bardic performance, which is almost always better spent inspiring your own party. Once you can use exquisite accompaniment and have both up, then sure. Blistering invective is also a no save intimidate, and while it requires a roll if your intimidate is maxed at level 8 you should be rocking at least a +17 (8 ranks, 6 cha mod, +3 class skill bonus), meaning you get an 18 even if you roll a 1. The DC to intimidate is 10+HD+wis mod, so an enemy with 8 HD and a wis mod of 4 is looking at a DC22; you hit it with a 5 on the dice. The big sell about blistering invective is that it is an intimidate check, and for every 5 you beat the DC by you extend the shaken condition for 1 round. This remains in effect even if they leave the area, and the fire damage is just icing on the cake.

Taking weapon finesse really just adds +2 to hit with your rapier and whip...woo. The big part of adding swashbuckler is to prevent your character from dying a third time. You add a +2 to fort saves, a weak save for the bard. You get a couple levels of d10 hit dice. You get dodging panache, which can give you (currently) a +6 to AC and 5 ft of movement as an immediate action. You get parry/riposte, so you can potentially stop melee attacks from connecting and take an extra attack. The second level gives charmed life, a +6 to saves 3 times a day. You get weapon finesse(only with the rapier),weapon focus and +2 BAB, netting a +5 to hit with that keen bad boy instead of that +2 from just finesse.

Of course, you lose out on spell and performance progression, but spells and performances generally don't add that kind of defense.

One way to increase your chances of not dying is to start fighting much more defensively. I am certain you have 3 ranks in acrobatics(or perform dance if you have versatile performance:dance) so fight defensively and take a -4 to attacks and +3 to AC. Your rapier is keen, meaning you threaten a crit at 15-20. Even with a -4, you cancel that out with adding a swasbuckler level, so you have a +8 to hit, and this is not factoring in your performance or any other buffs. If you don't crit, you are looking at a maximum 8 damage-that's chump change at this level. If you get a 15 on the dice, a +8 makes a 23, which hits most CR9-10 enemies, especially if they are humanoids, and threatens a critical making the damage relevant. You generally have better things to do than swing your sword(unless you parry and are riposting) but if you are using it, you might as well be cautious and go for a critical. It is also important to note you get panache back by scoring critical hits, and you want panache.

[stanprollyright]

You add a +2 to fort saves, a weak save for the bard.

Not true, actually. Swash only has good Reflex saves.


Of course, you lose out on spell and performance progression, but spells and performances generally don't add that kind of defense.

That's the crux of it. Levels 9-10 in Bard each give me an extra weird word per round, +1 DC, 4 extra performance rounds (which are at a premium due to the way weird words works in this game), Inspire Greatness for 2HD, and level 4 spells. I would still get all of that eventually, I guess.

I was under-equipped both times I died, since I started this character in the middle of a campaign at the beginning of a lengthy dungeon. I had a whole pirate ship's worth of masterwork and mundane items to choose from, but nothing really good for level 5-6. That battle was against an equal number of equally-leveled PC-classed bad guys as us. We did really well, considering. We killed all but one of them with only me dying, and another getting knocked unconscious.

The second time was two sessions later, when we were captured in a railroad-y way and stripped of our gear; I was mad at the DM for taking it away after I had just gotten something resembling level-appropriate gear for the first time. So I resisted pretty hard, continually making escape artist checks and trying outrageous bluffs on our captors. When I used weird words to cut through my manacles, the BBEG's pet wizard zapped me with a disintegrate, instantly killed me. I don't think he meant to kill me, but the wizard had to be at least twice our level, and I failed my save for half damage. So, kinda my fault.

All that's to say, I'm quite a bit more survivable with items. I also just picked up Mirror Image, which I had previously overlooked in favor of more offensive/utility options, and I plan to get a wand of Shield ASAP. The Con belt is currently being crafted and I have over 1k left, so I can probably get some scrolls too. There are a lot of ways to combine bardic class features, I'm just not sure the worth of investing heavily into melee.


One way to increase your chances of not dying is to start fighting much more defensively. I am certain you have 3 ranks in acrobatics(or perform dance if you have versatile performance:dance) so fight defensively and take a -4 to attacks and +3 to AC. Your rapier is keen, meaning you threaten a crit at 15-20. Even with a -4, you cancel that out with adding a swasbuckler level, so you have a +8 to hit, and this is not factoring in your performance or any other buffs. If you don't crit, you are looking at a maximum 8 damage-that's chump change at this level. If you get a 15 on the dice, a +8 makes a 23, which hits most CR9-10 enemies, especially if they are humanoids, and threatens a critical making the damage relevant. You generally have better things to do than swing your sword(unless you parry and are riposting) but if you are using it, you might as well be cautious and go for a critical. It is also important to note you get panache back by scoring critical hits, and you want panache.

Good call; fighting defensively has never been an option before. I mean, it technically has, but my attack modifiers are usually too low and my other options too worthwhile for it to be something I would ever use.

[Geddy2112]

Derp, I forgot the swasbuckler is bad fort, despite being a hybrid of 2 classes with good fort saves...

It sounds like you just died from being under equipped and heavy handed DMing. The game assumes rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, magic weapons, stat boosting headbands/belts, etc. as part of wealth by level. CR is adjusted for that, and you just got killed from lack of those. Some classes can get by when stripped of gear or running lean, but being under equipped increases the CR of an encounter. I don't think you need the wand of shield though-it is only +2 AC since your +1 buckler is providing 2 AC from a shield bonus and they won't stack. You are correct in mirror image being one of the best defensive abilities in the game.

With weird words coming at such a premium, I would probably not use this performance very often unless you need to overwhelm a BBEG target as soon as possible. It is certainly less flashy or glorious, but inspire courage is a high tide raising all boats. +2 to attack means more attacks connect, and +2 to damage on top of that. Almost everyone in your party is a weapon based damage brute-every time that +2 to attack makes their weapon connect, that is actually damage your character dealt.

[stanprollyright]

I don't think you need the wand of shield though-it is only +2 AC since your +1 buckler is providing 2 AC from a shield bonus and they won't stack.

O.O didn't know that.


With weird words coming at such a premium, I would probably not use this performance very often unless you need to overwhelm a BBEG target as soon as possible. It is certainly less flashy or glorious, but inspire courage is a high tide raising all boats. +2 to attack means more attacks connect, and +2 to damage on top of that. Almost everyone in your party is a weapon based damage brute-every time that +2 to attack makes their weapon connect, that is actually damage your character dealt.

That's mostly how I've been using it, hence Lingering Performance. And the more I buff them, the more I wanna use my own buffs once in a while, hence Swashy.

With the 8th level ability advancement and getting my headband back, Weird Words is doing a lot higher damage and the DC went up by 3 at once, so I can start using a couple words at a time against multiple enemies.

[Geddy2112]

That's mostly how I've been using it, hence Lingering Performance. And the more I buff them, the more I wanna use my own buffs once in a while, hence Swashy.

With the 8th level ability advancement and getting my headband back, Weird Words is doing a lot higher damage and the DC went up by 3 at once, so I can start using a couple words at a time against multiple enemies.

Oh yeah, you can start performing inspire courage as a move, then stop it and get 2 rounds from lingering, using your standard action to use weird words, cast a spell, or use your bow/sword. It does not leave you a lot of time to move around the battlefield though, and level 13 for swift action performance is a ways out. Since your DM ruled that weapon feats work for weird words, does it count as a weapon for damage from bardic performance and get the bonus from inspire courage?

Also, somewhat unrelated, but grab discordant voice as your level 11 feat. 1d6 sonic damage from every weapon attack on your team within 30 ft so long as you are performing. It is such a good feat it is arguably worth retraining at level 10. It does require 10 ranks in perform sing or oratory, but I am guessing that won't be an issue?

[stanprollyright]

Oh yeah, you can start performing inspire courage as a move, then stop it and get 2 rounds from lingering, using your standard action to use weird words, cast a spell, or use your bow/sword. It does not leave you a lot of time to move around the battlefield though, and level 13 for swift action performance is a ways out. Since your DM ruled that weapon feats work for weird words, does it count as a weapon for damage from bardic performance and get the bonus from inspire courage?

I've never asked, but I assume not, since Weird Words is still a performance and Lingering Performance states "If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease." Now that Inspire Courage only takes a move action, I can usually start it up again in the same round anyway. And since I have options at every range, I don't really have to move that often. I have, at least once, forgotten to disapply the IC buff from my WW attack macros. It's only ~10% damage increase anyway, with no benefit to accuracy since I have to roll a 1 to miss most of the time.


Also, somewhat unrelated, but grab discordant voice as your level 11 feat. 1d6 sonic damage from every weapon attack on your team within 30 ft so long as you are performing. It is such a good feat it is arguably worth retraining at level 10. It does require 10 ranks in perform sing or oratory, but I am guessing that won't be an issue?

Oh, yes. That was a given. That's why I keep trying to squeeze in a Dex-to-damage feat at 9th or so, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to get it until 13th. By then I might as well spend 10k to stick Agile on my rapier instead. For late game feats I'm thinking (in no particular order): Spell Penetration, Extra Performance, Additional Traits (for the CL-improver one to cancel out the multiclass, and probably a bonus to Fort saves. Or Magical Lineage), Heighten/Selective/Extend Spell (probably will only have room for one of them), plus Ability Focus ASAP if I don't retrain for it.

[Geddy2112]

Oh, yes. That was a given. That's why I keep trying to squeeze in a Dex-to-damage feat at 9th or so, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to get it until 13th. By then I might as well spend 10k to stick Agile on my rapier instead. For late game feats I'm thinking (in no particular order): Spell Penetration, Extra Performance, Additional Traits (for the CL-improver one to cancel out the multiclass, and probably a bonus to Fort saves. Or Magical Lineage), Heighten/Selective/Extend Spell (probably will only have room for one of them), plus Ability Focus ASAP if I don't retrain for it.

If you can afford agile, that is good, but unless your dex is going up a lot from here on out it is a lot of coin for +2 damage. Same thing from the dex-to-damage feat.

I don't think you need spell penetration, as the majority of bard spells don't target opponents. Certainly you have some awesome targeted enchantment spells, but I don't think the +2 is all that needed when your entire build is not dependent on connecting spells against enemies. It would be different if you were a blaster or control druid/wizard or the like.

Additional traits is good-the magical knack mitigates the 2 level dip in caster level, and there are zillions of other good ones. Extra performance is not great, but you could do worse.

For metamagics, I am personally a huge fan of extend spell-you have a lot of buff spells that extend will turn into all day buffs. Heighten is not bad, but I don't think you need selective spell, as there are few bard spells it benefits, and fewer situations where it is needed. If you really find yourself needing to cast confusion when everyone in the party is right next to you, well, you can make do with something else.

[stanprollyright]

If you can afford agile, that is good, but unless your dex is going up a lot from here on out it is a lot of coin for +2 damage. Same thing from the dex-to-damage feat.

Still the best +1 enchantment I can get. And I was going to get a dex item next anyway.


I don't think you need spell penetration, as the majority of bard spells don't target opponents. Certainly you have some awesome targeted enchantment spells, but I don't think the +2 is all that needed when your entire build is not dependent on connecting spells against enemies. It would be different if you were a blaster or control druid/wizard or the like.

Additional traits is good-the magical knack mitigates the 2 level dip in caster level, and there are zillions of other good ones. Extra performance is not great, but you could do worse.

For metamagics, I am personally a huge fan of extend spell-you have a lot of buff spells that extend will turn into all day buffs. Heighten is not bad, but I don't think you need selective spell, as there are few bard spells it benefits, and fewer situations where it is needed. If you really find yourself needing to cast confusion when everyone in the party is right next to you, well, you can make do with something else.

I don't need anything. Bards aren't very feat-dependent in this version (unlike 3.5, though that might have just been because there were about 4-5 really OP Bard feats that formed the core of every build). Since as a Bard you spend roughly 1/3 your actions casting, 1/3 performing, 1/3 fighting, your returns on any given action diminish way faster. Getting Dex to damage certainly isn't optimal; you've convinced me of that at least. I just feel that if I'm taking levels in Swashbuckler and I'm going to be parrying and critfishing and acting like a duelist I might as well go all the way with it and max out that combat style. It's about the only thing I can do from the martial side of things that doesn't involve taking more levels of Swash. Dex is a good ability to buff anyhow.

Honestly, Improved Initiative is likely one of my stronger choices, but I probably won't take it unless there's nothing else that's fun. Extra Performance at least gives me more WW ammo. Other general stuff like Dodge and Toughness and Great Fortitude could actually be decent too, since I'm trying to be less squishy, and defensive bonuses don't suffer from the action-splitting problem. But that's boring. And pricey for the minor benefits that you don't have any control over when they'll be used.

EDIT: Part of why I liked the idea of this dip in the first place was that it would incentivize me to use more buffs. I sour on support characters that don't use their own buffs. With a Bard it's easy to have IC and Haste up in the first round, maybe Alter Self or Heroism up already, so with a couple feats you're kinda-sorta doing Fighter damage by round 2 or 3.