Why is soulknife weak?

[Skjaldbakka]

What is it about Soulknife that makes it weak? This isn't a contention of that fact, I am looking for a breakdown, so I can start modifying it, as one of my players wants to play one in a game I will be running this fall. It will be a high-power game, and so I don't want him to be left behind.

[Human Paragon 3]

Soulknife isn't really weak. It's only weak in a high-magic campaign where everyone has access to boatloads of magical items via magical item stores etc. If magical weapons are rare enough, the soulknife actually becomes a very strong class.

However, since you are in a "high-powered" campaign I take that to mean that magical items will be plentiful.

The main criticism of the soul knife is that his only power is free access to a magical weapon (which most fighters or melee'rs will grab anyway with no problem).

The easiest fix is probably to hook him up with full BAB, though thats not what I did.

Another fix I used is to alter his psychic strike feature into a charge-up class feature. When the soulknife charges his mindblade with a his psychic energy, it can deal damage to anything, not just intelligent enemies. This means he can damage undead, constructs, sunder weapons or other objects etc. I also modified the throw mind blade class feature into a ki-blast feature which was close to identical to the original. The only difference is that you didn't have to extinguish your mindblade to use it, so you could A) make an attack with your mindblade and then ki-blast or vise versa (if you have two attacks per round), and that the rapid shot feat applied to the ki-blast class feature. Otherwise it was the same. The soulknife still adds strength bonus to his damage etc.

[Lemur]

Looking at the soulknife, I'd say that it's main issue is that it's not sure what sort of class it's supposed to be. All it's special abilities are based around combat, but he has an average base attack bonus and can only use light armor. His skill list and skill points aren't enough for him to be a skill monkey, although he has the stealth and perception skills.

Furthermore, although psychic strike augments damage, it can't be used with multiple attacks (like sneak attack can), which restricts its usefulness to only certain situations. Once the soulknife starts getting iterative attacks, or uses two weapons, using psychic strike becomes less attractive. Meaning that even though the die damage increases with level, the ability itself remains only moderately useful, primarily for getting in a strong first shot at the beginning of combat. Past that, it's just kind of meh, especially considering it's already restricted to targets vulnerable to mind influencing effects (in other words, targets which are potentially much easier to deal with using magic).

I'd say either give it full base attack, or increase it's skill points and add some more skills to the class list. Doing one of those will probably give the class something it can be competitive with. More than that may be overdoing it, since the mind blade enhancement ability does provide the soulknife with some versatility and uniqueness, as well as effectively giving him a free magic weapon.

[bugsysservant]

You could leave him as is, but make it so he can reassign enhancement bonuses to his blade in three rounds, rather than eight hours. This means that, if he knows he will face a tough foe, he doesn't need to spend all day refocusing, but the time limit will keep him from refocusing in combat against all but the most powerful foes.

Alternatively you could have him reasign values at the begining of the day, and give him other benefits.

Actually, this might work better with increased skill points for a "careful planner" type of character.

[Saph]

Soulknife is a terrible class because there's absolutely nothing it can do. Its main ability - access to a magic weapon - can be duplicated by every other class in the game, just by buying one. And since a soulknife only has a medium BAB, it won't even be all that good at using that magic weapon.

As if that wasn't enough, a soulknife's mind blade isn't even all that much stronger than the primary weapon of a fighter of comparable level, and in some cases is actually weaker (a fighter should easily have access to a +5 weapon by level 15 or so, but a soulknife doesn't get one till level 20). So not only is the soulknife's main ability duplicable by every other class, but it isn't even all that good at it.

And finally, the soulknife has virtually no options for customisation. Like the monk, a soulknife gets almost no choices about its abilities - they lock it into a set pattern. This cuts it off from most of the really effective combinations. All in all, the soulknife's a strong candidate for worst class in D&D.

- Saph

[SilverClawShift]

Let me add a disclaimer to what I'm about to say. The soulknife IS a weak base class, and the DM correcting for that in game does NOT make it a powerful class.

I say this because a lot of these dicussions end with someone saying "But just because you can houserule a boost doesn't make it a good class" and they're absolutely right. By the raw list of classes, the soulknife comes up short, and an in game fix doesn't change that fact.

That said, a good DM CAN (and arguably should) compensate in some way for mechanically weaker classes, without making the 'bigger brother' classes feel bad.
They shouldn't go too far and make it a powerhouse, but bringing their power level up somehow so they don't get left in the dust is just fine.

In my group, our DM hates changeing classes, especially things like BAB and saving throws and such. Sometime's he'll allow a different skill list for a specific flavor or build, but for the most part, he doesn't like changing what a class is.

So how does he 'fix' the soulknife? He gives it cool, but soulknife specific items that bring it more in power step with the rest of the party. It's only come up twice, and never in major campaigns, but the solution seemed to work fairly well. He'd give items that did things such as letting the soulknife add their WIS to damage with their mindblade, or doing things like healing the character a hitpoint every time they dealt a point of damage (one point per hit max). One of the handier items were basically "Ki Batteries", that charged each time the soulknife killed something sentient with the mindblade. He could discharge the energy he had stored up as extra damage, magical damage that bypassed most damage reduction on top of that. Turned him from a tired and sad party hanger on into a proud front liner, and did it in a way that let the rest of us focus on our roles and not feel like we were being neglected or outshined.

[Person_Man]

1) It's a melee class that lacks full BAB. The most reliable sources of melee damage are extra attacks + the Power Attack feat tree, both of which are dependent upon high BAB.

2) The mind blade, the Soulknife's primary class feature, really isn't that impressive. The Kensai, for example, gets one or two (if using fists or a double weapon) +10 weapons over the course of only 10 levels, and its full BAB, and it has other nifty class features. Furthermore, using standard wealth and Greater Magic Weapon from a friendly spellcaster, a PC can usually just buy and then enchant their weapon to be far superior to whatever a Soulknife is using.

3) The Soulknife lacks any of the defensive abilities generally given out to non-caster classes, such as Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Mettle, Divine Grace, etc. So he'll have a much harder time surviving on the battlefield. All of his abilities are offensive, and they're generally mediocre.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

2) The mind blade, the Soulknife's primary class feature, really isn't that impressive. The Kensai, for example, gets one or two (if using fists or a double weapon) +10 weapons over the course of only 10 levels, and its full BAB, and it has other nifty class features. Furthermore, using standard wealth and Greater Magic Weapon from a friendly spellcaster, a PC can usually just buy and then enchant their weapon to be far superior to whatever a Soulknife is using.

I can't speak for the OA Kensai, but the Complete Warrior Kensai has medium BAB.

Everything else you said I completely agree with.

[Bagera]

If you're looking for a fix look in the 3rd edition psionics handbook where Soul knife was a prestige class that rocked.

[Khantalas]

I can't speak for the OA Kensai, but the Complete Warrior Kensai has medium BAB.

Everything else you said I completely agree with.

And OA Kensei (yes, it's Kensei in OA) is basically Weapon Master from Sword & Fist with a few changes.

[Thinker]

I dojn't think the Soul Knife is borked because the DM can change things to make it work. Because of Rule 0 there relly can't be a borked class or a overpowerEd one. The DM allows everyOne to play what they want and not veel overshadowed. Besides, most things from suplements arent' well balanced wth things from the PHB. Most of the time my DM has to tone things down so that the casters don't feel Overshadwoed. In my last game the cleric tryed to close into melee and he couldnt hit anything. I was playing the Wizard and He couldnt do much damage to the enemies. Thats why my group has banned the ToB (thats Tome of Battle for the novices :smallsmile: ).

[Ninja Chocobo]

I dojn't think the Soul Knife is borked because the DM can change things to make it work. Because of Rule 0 there relly can't be a borked class or a overpowerEd one. The DM allows everyOne to play what they want and not veel overshadowed. Besides, most things from suplements arent' well balanced wth things from the PHB. Most of the time my DM has to tone things down so that the casters don't feel Overshadwoed. In my last game the cleric tryed to close into melee and he couldnt hit anything. I was playing the Wizard and He couldnt do much damage to the enemies. Thats why my group has banned the ToB (thats Tome of Battle for the novices :smallsmile: ).

What's wrong with this picture?

Hint:

Most of the time my DM has to tone things down so that the casters don't feel Overshadwoed.

[Dragonmuncher]

Heh... I don't think I've ever disagreed with every single sentence in a post before. All right, here we go.


I dojn't think the Soul Knife is borked because the DM can change things to make it work. Because of Rule 0 there relly can't be a borked class or a overpowerEd one. The DM allows everyOne to play what they want and not veel overshadowed.

The fact that you can house rule something doesn't make it all right. You can houserule ANYTHING to make it how you want- the discussion is if the class as-is is acceptable. As Silver said above:


I say this because a lot of these dicussions end with someone saying "But just because you can houserule a boost doesn't make it a good class" and they're absolutely right. By the raw list of classes, the soulknife comes up short, and an in game fix doesn't change that fact.



Besides, most things from suplements arent' well balanced wth things from the PHB.

Such as? It's true, every book has a few things that need a second look (Divine Metamagic, Persistant Spell, a few other things) For the most part, I think most things are about as balanced as Core (which isn't saying too much. CoDzilla isn't just a fancy name for fish, you know).



Most of the time my DM has to tone things down so that the casters don't feel Overshadwoed. In my last game the cleric tryed to close into melee and he couldnt hit anything. I was playing the Wizard and He couldnt do much damage to the enemies.

Oh... oh, you poor soul. At anything besides low-level play, casters are the way to "win" DnD.

The cleric couldn't hit anything in melee? A cleric has medium BAB, and access to buff spells. As long as his strength score was at least mediocre, he should have been on par with any fighter.

As for being a Wizard who can't do much damage to enemies, that's just how D&D Wizards are. Their damage spells can be useful in specialized situations (A fireball to take out a bunch of low-level mooks, and such) but wizards really shine when it comes to Battlefield Control. Do a search on these boards for "Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman" (just "being batman" should be fine) and you'll see what I mean.

A wizard focused on dealing damage with his spells will almost never be as effective as a fighter focused on dealing damage with his big metal stick. The wizard can, however, make it so the enemies are all paralyzed, or slow, or too weak to hold their weapons, or afraid, or trapped in fog, or being constantly sneak attacked by the invisible rogue, or level drained, or a million other things.

If you're at low level, it's a bit harder for a caster. Still, spells like Sleep and Grease can neutralize groups of enemies so they can be decapitated at leisure.



Thats why my group has banned the ToB (thats Tome of Battle for the novices :smallsmile: ).

This one's interesting. There's no denying that the ToB classes are more powerful than a fighter. What ToB does, though, is help melee classes become as powerful as casters do at later levels. In a dual between a 20th level fighter and a 20th level wizard, the wizard will win (Really. Every so often someone a dual will run on these forums to test this concept, and I don't think I've ever seen the fighter win.) ToB does add power, but makes it so melee classes have a fighting chance.




...oh right, this was a Soul Knife thread. Anyway, Soul Knife (AS WRITTEN, which makes your claims of "it's fine! I can just houserule the bad parts!" kind of irrelevant) is a "weak" class because it does almost nothing other classes can't do. Magic weapons aren't rare in D&D, and the Soul Knife's mindblade isn't any more powerful than the others. There have been some attempts to fix them with houserules (which doesn't mean the soulknife is fine, it just means that we all have a lot of free time on these boards...)- the same Logic Ninja from above made something called blade points, I think, and I've seen others as well- but I don't know how successful they've been.

Heck, you can achieve almost the same effect with a psychic warrior who uses "call weaponry" a lot.

[Kyeudo]

I dojn't think the Soul Knife is borked because the DM can change things to make it work. Because of Rule 0 there relly can't be a borked class or a overpowerEd one. The DM allows everyOne to play what they want and not veel overshadowed. Besides, most things from suplements arent' well balanced wth things from the PHB. Most of the time my DM has to tone things down so that the casters don't feel Overshadwoed. In my last game the cleric tryed to close into melee and he couldnt hit anything. I was playing the Wizard and He couldnt do much damage to the enemies. Thats why my group has banned the ToB (thats Tome of Battle for the novices :smallsmile: ).

Your group doesn't optimize at all, I take it?

Rule 0 doesn't justify the soulknife being gimped in any decent party. Claiming that it does is just invoking the Oberoni Fallacy.

[Thinker]

Your group doesn't optimize at all, I take it?

We're very good at optimizing. Our Meleers have tons of HP and don't die! Our clerc's spells ARE good at stopping the rogue from running out of HP. AND with Empower my spells do max damage! It means I dont get to throw as many dice but still fun.

[Kyeudo]

We're very good at optimizing. Our Meleers have tons of HP and don't die! Our clerc's spells ARE good at stopping the rogue from running out of HP. AND with Empower my spells do max damage! It means I dont get to throw as many dice but still fun.

Don't you mean Maximize? I take it you also believe that hp damage is a good option at all levels?

Melee classes always have a ton of hp. Clerics always can heal decently. Nothing you've said makes me believe your group could tell pun-pun from a kobold commoner.

[Khantalas]

We're very good at optimizing. Our Meleers have tons of HP and don't die! Our clerc's spells ARE good at stopping the rogue from running out of HP. AND with Empower my spells do max damage! It means I dont get to throw as many dice but still fun.

One, Empower doesn't make you do maximum damage. And that's not the strong suit of being a wizard, either.

Two, you could have a fighter with infinite HP, a wizard about a level higher after a certain point would breeze through killing him.

Three, if the cleric has to heal to prevent death from hit point loss, something is wrong and he isn't fighting anymore.

Four, why is your rogue getting hit again?

You are not optimizing. You are having fun, but not optimizing. Which is a good thing, actually. As long as you have no claims to optimization, at least.

[PinkysBrain]

Soulknife isn't really weak. It's only weak in a high-magic campaign where everyone has access to boatloads of magical items via magical item stores etc.
I gather by high magic You mean default wealth games? Even without ye old magic shoppes you can play with default wealth, by dropping party appropriate equipment (like for instance the Red Hand of Doom adventure advocates).

If magical weapons are rare enough, the soulknife actually becomes a very strong class.
If magical items are rare enough the casters become even stronger (and necessary to keep the ACs up).

[Dragonmuncher]

You are not optimizing. You are having fun, but not optimizing. Which is a good thing, actually. As long as you have no claims to optimization, at least.

Yeah, definitely. I always feel kind of guilty when I'm in a thread chastising someone for not optimizing enough.

If you're having fun, Thinker, go for it. The posts above (including mine) explain why you might be having the problems you're having, though.

[Bassetking]

We're very good at optimizing. Our Meleers have tons of HP and don't die! Our clerc's spells ARE good at stopping the rogue from running out of HP. AND with Empower my spells do max damage! It means I dont get to throw as many dice but still fun.

Oh, you precious, darling snowflake. I want to scoop you up, and cuddle you, and promise you that everything will always be ok. Also, buy you a pony made of rainbows and giggles.

1) *Our Meleers have tons of HP and don't die!* Which means they have a Con Score. Fantastic.

Trade them in for a Reach-weapon armed fighter with Improved Trip, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, and Thicket of Blades, and watch an impassible wall of AoO rise up to halt any incoming foe.

Trade them for a Barbarian 1/fighter x and have them focus on Power Attack, and the sacred Charge Multiplier, and watch them Snicker-Snack through anything that looks at them funny.

Trade them in for a Hug-Monster, and watch it flat-out deny action to strategic objectives.

2) *Our cleric's spells ARE good at stopping the rogue from running out of HP.* Which means your Cleric spends a lot of time sitting in the back row "Polishing his wand of Cure Light Wounds" 'eh? That makes Pelor Cry. He cries tears of ultimate destruction of the unworthy, and they deal Holy Splash damage, with a +4 against sentient Undead.

Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Permanancy. Divine Metamagic. Extra Turning.

Your Cleric, instead of keeping the Rogue "Topped Off" now wades into combat ahead of the fighter, and proceeds to bludgeon the merciful word of his god straight through his foe's occipital lobe.

3) *AND with Empower my spells do max damage! It means I don't get to throw as many dice*

Forget Empower. You're looking for Enervation. Twin Ray, Quicken, Maximize. Ray of Exhaustion. Chilling touch. Ray of Idiocy. Ray of Enfeeblement. Shut your foes down, and let the big, dumb, door-openers handle the head-count.

4)*but still fun.* Above all else. Yes. Ignore everything I just wrote if you wish. Keep this true. Have fun doing this, it's a game. Enjoy yourself.

[TheOOB]

Even with a full BAB the soulknife wouldn't be that great, their primary class ability is having a free +10 weapon by level 20, then you remember that you spent 20 levels of a class to get something thats worse then a fighter can buy. (remember, a +1 weapon with +9 worth of special abilities and the target of greater magic weapon is better then a net +10 weapon). All of the soulknives other abilities are largely irrelevent.

You could, in theory, make a class that focused on a single weapon you create that would be good, but the class would have to be able to do something with that weapon that couldn't be replicated by other classes that easy.

[Kyeudo]

With a little more control over his mindblade and a some better feat support, Soulknife could easily top fighter, maybe even get up with rogue and psychic warrior, but I don't see the psi haters at WotC giving it to the soulknife.

[Amphimir Míriel]

Seeing this thread gave me a spark of inspiration: Give them some powers, for chrissakes!

See the result and comment here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2887500#post2887500

[Jothki]

Since Soulknives have a built in magical weapon, how well does Vow of Poverty stack on top of that?

[Fax Celestis]

Since Soulknives have a built in magical weapon, how well does Vow of Poverty stack on top of that?

A mind blade, having no physical value, does not interfere with VoP.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Vow of Poverty for a soulknife would effectively be like VoP for a monk: a bad idea. There's many threads that detail why this is in the archives.

VoP is best left to the druids.

[Fax Celestis]

VoP is best left to the druids.

And Totemists!

[CASTLEMIKE]

Since it is a psionic class consider giving it the limited known powers and power points of a Divine Mind if the PC spends a Feat on Hidden Talent but nothing else from the class. 62 Power Points a day at level 20.

Base the bonus power points on Wisdom

Consider the Psionic Rogue over at Wizards

If the Psi Soul Knife is penalized by 1 skill point a level (25% of skill points) or Intelligence if the Psi Soul Knife is penalized by 2 skill points a level (50% of normal skill points) and cap Psychic Strike at +4D8 and delay it by one level take at 4, 8, 12 and 16.

Give it the powers of a Psionic Rogue (15 known level 1 to 5 powers with 100 PP at level 20). It basically only delays a few feats and costs a Rogue +1D6 Sneak Attack and 2 skill points a level (25% of skill points) compared to a standard Rogue if PRCing. If not PRCing the psionic rogue only loses 2 more sneak attacks and 2 skill points a level if taken to level 20.

[TheOOB]

Or you could just make a kensai varient that manifests their weapon instead of enchanting an existing weapon.

[tainsouvra]

As for being a Wizard who can't do much damage to enemies, that's just how D&D Wizards are. Their damage spells can be useful in specialized situations (A fireball to take out a bunch of low-level mooks, and such) but wizards really shine when it comes to Battlefield Control. Do a search on these boards for "Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards: Being Batman" (just "being batman" should be fine) and you'll see what I mean.

A wizard focused on dealing damage with his spells will almost never be as effective as a fighter focused on dealing damage with his big metal stick. The wizard can, however, make it so the enemies are all paralyzed, or slow, or too weak to hold their weapons, or afraid, or trapped in fog, or being constantly sneak attacked by the invisible rogue, or level drained, or a million other things. Search might not find it, but it's right here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500

[CthulhuM]

I wrote up an upgrade to the soulknife a while ago. I basically ended up breaking it into two classes, since completely taking away the view of it as a lightly armored, dexterous fighter seemed wrong, but so did forcing it to be one. It's not the most creative class alteration in the world, but I think it works:

• Soulknives receive full base attack bonus, rather than 3/4s.

• At 1st level, soulknives may choose either a Skirmisher or a Warrior track.

• Skirmishers receive d8 hit die, 6 + Int skill points per level, good reflex and will saves, evasion at 2nd level, uncanny dodge at 4th level, improved uncanny dodge at 8th level and their choice of rogue special abilities at 12th, 16th and 20th levels.

• Warriors receive d10 hit die, 2 + Int skill points per level, good fortitude and will saves, proficiency in medium and heavy armor, as well as shields (but not tower shields), a bonus feat from the fighter bonus feat list at 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th levels and the ability to manifest Mind Armor.

Mind armor may be manifested as a full round action (standard at 5th, move at 10th, swift at 15th, free immediate at 20th) and remains until it is dismissed (as a standard action) or the soulknife dies. Mind armor can be manifested as any sort of armor (with all the penalties of that armor, including weight, max Dex bonus, etc.) the soulknife is proficient in, up to light armor at 1st level, medium armor at 3rd level and heavy armor at 5th level. Mind armor receives enhancement bonuses and spendable enhancement points at the same rate as the soulknife’s mind blade. The DM should decide on a case-by-case basis what enhancements can be placed on the mind armor, using the options for the mindblade as a rough guideline.

Starting at level 5, a warrior soulknife may manifest his mind armor as mithral or adamantine if he wishes.

• Starting at level 5, a soulknife of either type may choose to have his mind blade overcome damage reduction as either a cold iron or alchemical silver weapon if he desires. He must take a full round action to set the mind blade’s behavior, after which it will act as the same material every time he summons it until he takes another full round action to change it. If he wants an adamantine mindblade, he can purchase an item that accomplishes this (listed in Magic Item Compendium – page 68). Using this item does not consume a mind blade enhancement point as stated in its description. Alternatively, the soulknife may take the Adamantine Mind Blade (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Adamantine_Mind_Blade,all) feat (though only if he already can make his mind blade silver or cold iron) – if he chooses this option, the soulknife may take a full round action to switch his mindblade to act as cold iron, silver or adamantine.

• A soulknife may readjust his mind blade (and mind armor, if he has it) enhancements (starting when he first receives them at level 6) every time he rests. He need not spend an additional 8 hours meditating to do so.