Playgrounders in D&D

[FocusWolf413]

You, as you are right now, with your equivalent mental stats, physical stats, class levels (probably expert 2 or 3), etc., are transported into the D&D universe. Assume you have complete knowledge of the rules, physics, and universe as written. What do you do?

[Crake]

You, as you are right now, with your equivalent mental stats, physical stats, class levels (probably expert 2 or 3), etc., are transported into the D&D universe. Assume you have complete knowledge of the rules, physics, and universe as written. What do you do?

Probably die from starvation, exposure, disease, or wild creatures fairly quickly, since I have no practical skills to be put to use in a medieval setting? At best, I can survive by begging for food.

Knowledge of the fact that the world works in a system doesn't give you the ability to exploit that system. You need access to the right resources, money, and influence, none of which you would have if just being randomly plopped into a world.

[John Longarrow]

Which setting and where in that setting? Also any prep time before we get dropped in?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Survival's not an issue for me (between survival skills and a willingness to bust wood for an inn, I'm fed and I'm close enough to an engineer that tinkering can make me a fair amount of gold) so one of the first things I'm doing is beginning a pilgrimage to the nearest temple of Boccob or Wee Jas on Oerth or Azuth or Mystra on Abier-Toril. If I've landed on Eberron, I'm probably just getting a job with House Cannith and saving up money to try and get into Morgrave University as soon as i can. Hopefully, I will prove to have the capacity for magic and begin studying to be a wizard. I doubt I'd ever be much better than a hedge wizard but I've got to try.

I'm a fairly decent fighter (It actually might be appropriate to stat myself as a monk 1/ fighter 1, to be honest) but I want -nothing- to do with jumping into combat in these worlds. Just, haaaeeeeyyyylllll no. :smallsigh:

[Korahir]

Given my physical abilities I'd wound dead pretty quick in a fight. I'd probably track down a temple of a Good deity and offer my service as a healer and teach common folk how to treat the sick and wounded. So I'd stat myself as an expert 2 or 3 with subpar physical stats but acceptable mental stats.

[Zanos]

*Ahem*

"Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu."

[Korahir]

*Ahem*

"Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu."

Are you sure you are lawful good or especially good and benevolent to be worthy for pazuzu to care to corrupt you? I'd guess you would end up pretty dead :P

[danielxcutter]

I see that "stay as far from combat as possible" is popular. That is the normal reaction in my opinion; just because you can build Pun-Pun doesn't mean you could survive in a world governed by the laws of D&D 3.5. In fact, on the Korean equivalent of Tvtropes, the guide The Modern Person's Guide to a Fantasy World* also strongly recommends this, since it's far more likely that you'll die miserably than become a hero even with knowledge of modern technology.

*Yes, the title is a reference to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. It's actually a good guide.

[Mordaedil]

Is it available in English? I'm curious now.

[danielxcutter]

Is it available in English? I'm curious now.

No, unfortunately not, but I'll quote it when something relevant comes up. Which might be fairly often if we're going to have a serious discussion about living in a fantasy world like D&D.

[Zanos]

Are you sure you are lawful good or especially good and benevolent to be worthy for pazuzu to care to corrupt you? I'd guess you would end up pretty dead :P
Go big or go home. There's probably easier ways to get a free wish, though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Are you sure you are lawful good or especially good and benevolent to be worthy for pazuzu to care to corrupt you? I'd guess you would end up pretty dead :P

Just gotta be either non-evil or non-chaotic. Given the magnitude of what you're likely planning, chaos and destruction on a serious scale are almost inevitable. I don't imagine pazuzu would mind at least hearing you out. The real question is, "are you prepared to deal with the fallout?"

[Afgncaap5]

Work in as much 3rd party material as I can.

...okay, fine, if that's not allowed, then... I look into ways to gain XP, hoping that I'm a PC capable of doing so, and not a figure subject to some sort of DM fiat. Assuming that I've been transported to this realm by some sort of entity (lookin' at YOU Dungeon Master), I also start looking for clues to what's happening to see if there's some Jumanji-esque challenge, problem, or puzzle in need of solving.

Assuming I'm an Expert (if not Commoner) I'll try to get some quick cash using the low-hanging fruits of science, or at least the ones that I feel confident about. (Gunpowder probably won't work if I'm in Eberron, for instance, but I think most established settings would still be of the "aluminum is rare" variety, meaning that I could chemically produce aluminum and make a bit of cash.)

Then, thanks to the musical training my parents made sure I got (but sadly hindered by the lack of saxophones available in most settings), I'd probably become a traveling minstrel. Music has changed over the centuries, of course, but I've got enough of a background to at least know how to harmonize with vocals. And hey, if the setting is Eberron or an Adventure Zone-style version of the Forgotten Realms, there'd probably be people who would be really, really receptive to jazz music. I'd also try to leverage my creative writing degree into stories, allowing me to go from town to town, telling stories, singing songs, and trying to figure out how on Earth (or wherever) to get back to Earth, because most D&D places have crazy histories and events in them, longstanding cities of peace notwithstanding. And ultimately, I'd shoot for some XP to see if I could get some non-NPC levels.

If I got one of the core classes, it'd probably be either an unathletic Rogue who's invested in Perform, or maybe a Bard if I can figure out how to get the local magic to work. Or... if I'm going to be heading home in due time, I'd actually take advantage of the fact and see if I could get some unknown, unprinted information.

For instance: the Journeyman class was never actually released, but in the minds of many it's a class that exists in the Eberron campaign world. If I was in Eberron, could I become a member of the Journeyman class? Figure out what those class features are, how they work? Assuming things in this world are more or less balanced for play (even if they weren't published), it might give some fresh insights into things I can play as at home.)

Now, if I *can't* go home, then I'll start makin' due where I am, and try to really, really leverage being a minstrel into a fun life, maybe even a life of adventure. If I happen to know much about where I am (really only an option in Eberron, parts of Greyhawk, or very sporadic regions of the Forgotten Realms) I might even try to look up famed adventurers. They might not be able to help me, but I've got a feeling they'd be interested in whatever I was going through. I've got no idea if Otiluke or Abraxis Wren would even get along with me, but it seems reasonable to seek out movers and shakers like that.

What I'm NOT gonna do is use my knowledge of magic to look for bigger shortcuts than magic should already be providing anyway. I've always had a sense that the rules we have of the D&D world are more rough estimates of how things work without any acknowledgement of diminishing returns or friction. I don't want to fail to learn the "moral of the story" (I KNOW YOU'RE WATCHING, DUNGEON MASTER!) so I'm going to try to keep from using overusing the gift of genre and rules awareness.

[Vizzerdrix]

Which setting and where in that setting? Also any prep time before we get dropped in?

This. Also are we alone or is it clusters of people from this topic or one big group? And what time of year is it?

[Long post scrubbed. Short version added]

I have spent most of my life practicing and improving on skills I learned back in my Penobscot culture classes. I could list individual skills out, but what it would boil down to is I have a good few points in survival and primitive weapon and tool crafting. Enough that in the wild I wouldnt worry too much, depending on the season.

In a populated area, I feel that I know enough about steam engines, black powder, flinklocks, and the concepts of factories and machined parts that I would be able to sell someone on the idea of making them. If not, Ill have to be a general laborer or pick locks to get by.

Either way, retraining is a thing and their are a fair few feats that could make life much easier.

[Inevitability]

1. First, get 10 GP through some means, whether by selling stuff, taking out a loan, or pickpocketing. A week of crafting typical items should also get you this amount.

2. Pay a caster to cast Mount for you. At CL 1, the spell costs 10 GP.

3. Remove the horse's riding saddle, bit and bridle and wait for it to disappear. Per the summoning rules, summoned items stick around.

4. Sell the items for 16 GP.

5. Repeat until you've earned 11250 GP. Again, if loans are possible, make use of that.

6. Buy a wand of Water to Acid, creating about 315 flasks worth of acid per casting. Even sold at half price, that's 315 x 4.97 x 50 = 78277.5 GP earned.

7. Repeat to get an arbitrary amount of money. Buy magical items. Buy tuition in any kind of arcane academy. Be a caster who rules all, assuming the game isn't the tippyverse yet.

[flappeercraft]

1. First, get 10 GP through some means, whether by selling stuff, taking out a loan, or pickpocketing. A week of crafting typical items should also get you this amount.

2. Pay a caster to cast Mount for you. At CL 1, the spell costs 10 GP.

3. Remove the horse's riding saddle, bit and bridle and wait for it to disappear. Per the summoning rules, summoned items stick around.

4. Sell the items for 16 GP.

5. Repeat until you've earned 11250 GP. Again, if loans are possible, make use of that.

6. Buy a wand of Water to Acid, creating about 315 flasks worth of acid per casting. Even sold at half price, that's 315 x 4.97 x 50 = 78277.5 GP earned.

7. Repeat to get an arbitrary amount of money. Buy magical items. Buy tuition in any kind of arcane academy. Be a caster who rules all, assuming the game isn't the tippyverse yet.


Yeah but if you were there in a realistic world then people would stop buying saddles because seriously who needs so much saddles or acid and why would they stay the same price, shouldn't the price be lowered since there are so much of those items in circulation?

Also, I would try to somehow learn to be a Gish wizard, learn to fight for a single fighter level then study for as much as I can and if I ever get access to 8th level spells then I can just Steal Life my way to youth again and keep strudying until Im epic level. Then I guess optimize the heck outta myself or I could just use rituals and stuff to go the Pun-Pun route

[LordOfCain]

I would probably be a wizard 1 and would just make a Faustian pact for some cushy living.

[Stealth Marmot]

Pardon me while I go boil an anthill.

[Ashtagon]

Without my prescription meds I'm basically dead.

[danielxcutter]

Without my prescription meds I'm basically dead.

Okay, that was kinda disturbing... but yeah, some people literally can't survive outside of the modern world.

[Venger]

Okay, that was kinda disturbing... but yeah, some people literally can't survive outside of the modern world.

Then again, many chronic illnesses that require medication, such as diabetes, for example, don't have any listed effects in D&D, so it's possible it might just be obviated entirely.

I'd probably try to get a job as a professor at morgrave university. if there's one setting where you can make a normal existence outside being a murderhobo, it's eberron.

[danielxcutter]

Then again, many chronic illnesses that require medication, such as diabetes, for example, don't have any listed effects in D&D, so it's possible it might just be obviated entirely.

I'd probably try to get a job as a professor at morgrave university. if there's one setting where you can make a normal existence outside being a murderhobo, it's eberron.

Hmmm... Is there a way to have enough power without having to use it and live a relatively normal life? I think most spellcasters could do that, making magic items for a living without actually using them, or teaching others. Unless you're a Warmage. :smallannoyed:

[Venger]

Hmmm... Is there a way to have enough power without having to use it and live a relatively normal life? I think most spellcasters could do that, making magic items for a living without actually using them, or teaching others. Unless you're a Warmage. :smallannoyed:

Sure, tons. Again, the eberron books discuss this at length. many characters with real class levels have jobs in various different trade guilds, such as rail transport, engineering, banking, and law enforcement to name a few.

[danielxcutter]

Sure, tons. Again, the eberron books discuss this at length. many characters with real class levels have jobs in various different trade guilds, such as rail transport, engineering, banking, and law enforcement to name a few.

Well, that gives the Almighty Janitor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlmightyJanitor) trope a somewhat more literal meaning. Any specific examples?

[stanprollyright]

Low level knowledge-monkey expert, probably. int>cha>str>dex=con>wis. 1 rank in all the knowledge skills, a couple in knowledge (social sciences), a few in perform (singing), (acting), craft (multimedia productions), craft (construction), sense motive, spot, climb, handle animal. (This is 3.5 with X4 ranks at 1st level; few of these skills are maxed out).

[Inevitability]

Without my prescription meds I'm basically dead.

Remove Disease?

[Stealth Marmot]

Remove Disease?

I wonder if Remove Disease would cure diabetes.

[FocusWolf413]

Which setting and where in that setting? Also any prep time before we get dropped in?

I don’t know enough about the different settings to tell you which one, so I'm going for the generic fantasy setting. You have the stuff you usually carry on your person during the day. No prep time.


Are you sure you are lawful good or especially good and benevolent to be worthy for pazuzu to care to corrupt you? I'd guess you would end up pretty dead :P

Pazuzu wants to corrupt good people, but he also wants to corrupt people in general. As long as you make it clear that you'll tell everyone of the wonders of Pazuzu, blessed be, and advance his cause, he'll probably grant that wish.


This. Also are we alone or is it clusters of people from this topic or one big group? And what time of year is it?


It's just you, and it's about now.


Without my prescription meds I'm basically dead.

Same.

[Psyren]

This is rather easy, I'd become a cleric (cloistered preferably) or archivist. Most of us already have detailed knowledge of every major god's portfolio, dogma, and rites, including stuff that is not widely known within the setting like the nature of Ao or the history of Aroden; we would immediately have a considerable leg up on every acolyte or adept from a peasant or merchant family. Compared to your average D&D commoner, educated and nerdy forumites like ourselves have much higher Int and Wis scores, and likely Cha too, and be able to rise through the ranks quickly.

Upon arrival I would immediately supplicate myself to the most softhearted deity in the setting - Ilmater, Shelyn, Pelor Ehlonna etc - to guide me to safety. If they're not willing or able to help then I'm probably dead anyway, so I've got nothing to lose. They would lead me to a shrine or temple where I could take shelter and my studies could begin.

If I land in Eberron instead, I'd just join the Sovereign Host. Like Orcus' mom, they take all comers.

[Strigon]

Without my prescription meds I'm basically dead.

I, too, would be unable to survive long without much medical care. Fortunately, there are tricks around this.

First off, Cure Disease, PAO, or any one of many spells would likely save both our hides. For you, depending on where you're dropped off, you might find a church who could cast it on you for indentured servitude or the like. Not optimal, but better than dying.

Unfortunately, I have STR 0 - or at least, I'm pretty sure that's how it would be portrayed in the D&D verse.

Fortunately, that's my only problem; if I can make Profession checks, I'm solid. Since any profession makes the same amount of money in this world, theoretically even "Profession: Software Engineer" should make money. I can survive off that, for sure. If I can make enough money, PAO myself into something stronger, take a level in Wizard, and begin low-risk adventuring. If all else fails, Expeditious Retreat should save me if a job goes south.

After all, you don't need Phenomenal Cosmic Power to live a comfortable life. I might eventually look into immortality methods, but that's a long-term goal, and optional given how clearly defined and not terrible the afterlife is.

[LordOfCain]

Unfortunately, I have STR 0 - or at least, I'm pretty sure that's how it would be portrayed in the D&D verse.


Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
That describes you?

[Inevitability]

That describes you?

Strigon, like all other GitP'ers, is a patch of sentient psychic moss directly hooked up to the internet.

[LordOfCain]

Strigon, like all other GitP'ers, is a patch of sentient psychic moss directly hooked up to the internet.
Huh, and here I thought this was a human forum... I never succeed in infiltrating human communication like the other T-900s...

[Red Fel]

What do you do?

Rule.

Pretty much like I do now, frankly.

[Strigon]

That describes you?

Without my wheelchair? Yeah, pretty much :smalltongue:

At least, I fit STR 0 better than STR 1 - where you can still walk, run, open doors, and shoot bows no problem.

EDIT:

Strigon, like all other GitP'ers, is a patch of sentient psychic moss directly hooked up to the internet.

And it is now my mission to someday become a mod, so that I can be a "patch of sentient psychic moss in the playground".

[stanprollyright]

Low level knowledge-monkey expert, probably. int>cha>str>dex=con>wis. 1 rank in all the knowledge skills, a couple in knowledge (social sciences), a few in perform (singing), (acting), craft (multimedia productions), craft (construction), sense motive, spot, climb, handle animal. (This is 3.5 with X4 ranks at 1st level; few of these skills are maxed out).

Changed my mind. Aristocrat with educated feat. Took a custom flaw.

Mental Illness:
At the beginning of each day, roll 1d6 and apply condition.
1 - no effect. reroll the next time you fail a skill or ability check
2 - fatigued
3 - shaken
4 - sickened
5 - -2 to Will saves
6 - gain Rage as a Barbarian of your level.

[Venger]

Well, that gives the Almighty Janitor (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlmightyJanitor) trope a somewhat more literal meaning. Any specific examples?

I mean, I can talk about eberron from here to eternity. what exactly are you looking for? eberron campaign setting or five nations is a good place to start, or if you don't have those, any wiki provides a decent overview of the dragonmarked houses, which have a number of jobs for "stat me" type exercises where we'd realistically be starting out with a level or two of aristocrat or expert before we could grind up into a pc class, such as working as a reporter for the korranberg chronicle, being a mail carrier for house civis, or mucking out stables for house vadalis.


I wonder if Remove Disease would cure diabetes.

well, since D&D is very much a "if the rules don't have stats for a thing, the thing doesn't exist" game, I'm not convinced diabetes would actually exist within the setting at all. if it did, remove disease would definitely get rid of it since it can cure congenital conditions with numerous different causes, such as blindness or deafness.

[LordOfCain]

Without my wheelchair? Yeah, pretty much :smalltongue:
Okay, just making sure you were being accurate.

[Stealth Marmot]

My ranks in Profession (Tech Support)... oh geez...

Have you tried turning your wand off and back on again?

[Virdish]

My ranks in Profession (Tech Support)... oh geez...

Have you tried turning your wand off and back on again?

I'm right there with you profession (electronics technician) though most gitpers would also have a appreciable number of ranks in k (religion), k (the planes), and k (dungeoneering). Likely the easiest route for many of us would be to devote ourselves to some deity or another as a cleric. Or else find a Bard who would train us. Of course if you go Bard your best bet would probably be aiming for sublime chord.

[Grod_The_Giant]

As always, there are about two answers to these sorts of threads: the arrogant one and the honest one.

Arrogant answer: "I'd use my high Int score to start gaining Wizard levels and start chaining infinite wishes and win everything."
Honest answer: "I'd die." Probably of some horrible infection that the modern world has never heard of.

[Virdish]

Now I want to play in a campaign like this.

[Psyren]

As always, there are about two answers to these sorts of threads: the arrogant one and the honest one.

Arrogant answer: "I'd use my high Int score to start gaining Wizard levels and start chaining infinite wishes and win everything."
Honest answer: "I'd die." Probably of some horrible infection that the modern world has never heard of.

The real honest answer is that it would depend on how you got there. If it was a random magical anomaly, yeah you might likely die. But if some being or entity with agency had a reason for you being there, then it would be in their best interest to keep you around, at least until you fulfill whatever that purpose is.

[Vizzerdrix]

it's about now.

Ah. The for most of us, the correct answer is- Die from exposure.


You will need to get very, very lucky and spawn in a city with some form of support for its homeless just to get through night 1.

[Psyren]

Ah. The for most of us, the correct answer is- Die from exposure.


You will need to get very, very lucky and spawn in a city with some form of support for its homeless just to get through night 1.

Or land in a climate warm enough that sleeping outside one night won't kill you. Not every land is upstate NY in winter :smalltongue:

[Masema]

Well... I would try to become a cleric with the first couple of hours/days provided I am close enough to a city, then (when I have a level) go out into the world and finish up leveling with druid. Having 2 levels in expert, I would have 1 Cleric and 17 Druid. That way, by RAW, I would be able to cast Miracle.


To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level...

A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation...

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can “lose” any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with “cure” in its name)...

To prepare or cast a spell, the druid must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level...

A druid may prepare and cast any spell on the druid spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation...

She can “lose” a prepared spell in order to cast any summon nature’s ally spell of the same level or lower...So, by RAW, a level 17 druid can cast 9th level spells, miracle is a 9th level spell, it is on the cleric list. Ergo, I would be able to cast miracle, depending on my WIS

[danzibr]

My ranks in Profession (Tech Support)... oh geez...

Have you tried turning your wand off and back on again?
This made me lol.

I'd try to go to some big city and teach them advanced mathematics. At least, as advanced as I know.

[Strigon]

This made me lol.

I'd try to go to some big city and teach them advanced mathematics. At least, as advanced as I know.

I mean, scholars had some pretty advanced math even back in the medieval/renaissance period. Wizards with Int boosts might even be as far as we are with our computers - not in terms of computational power, of course, but as far as mathematical theory goes they'd be pretty set. Unless you've got a doctorate (I'm not saying you don't, but it's statistically unlikely) then anyone who has a need for the math probably already has it.

[Great Ax]

You, as you are right now, with your equivalent mental stats, physical stats, class levels (probably expert 2 or 3), etc., are transported into the D&D universe. Assume you have complete knowledge of the rules, physics, and universe as written. What do you do?

Well, considering I have a lot of knowledge about how the D&D universe works, the cosmology, knowledge of the different planes, knowledge of different worlds, etc., I could probably become renowned as being a motha f*ckin genius considering such knowledge is scare among other common people and even some who have spent years studying such things. However, if the D&D setting I am plopped into is anything like medieval reality, I would probably be hunted down by the established church or an angry mob of scientists who don't like how much I know (maybe even the established government). Then again, if people within the D&D universe already know this stuff, then consequences probably wouldn't be too bad off (except that considering I would not be a high level wizard or alchemist, etc., I might draw the attention of powerful clerics and wizards who are curious as to how I acquired such knowledge- pact with devils, blessed by a god, naturally privy to this through some sort of strange magic, stole scrolls, the list goes on).

Also, assuming I am aware of the ways to become a quasi-deity, I would probably experiment with them. Personally, killing a deity is almost certainly off the list (this stunning nerd physique won't be slaying any beings of phenomenal cosmic power any time soon), as is blessed by god (just because they don't exactly hand out Ascension To Divinity tickets for free). I feel like gaining a million followers would be the most probable.

Divinity Through Followers Cheese

By changing your name to contain the most commonly used sounds in language (couldn't post the URL to a page talking about the most commonly used sounds in language because less than 10 posts), you could argue that whenever someone uses them they are speaking your praises. (Of course, one could also argue that it is not praying to you as the one speaking those sounds probably has no clue who you are and has no intention of praying to you therefore they are not). To that I say look at the bible of your future religion you intend to make via this method. Within it it clearly states that one must pray to the God Of Cheese everyday by chanting variations of his/her name (being any vocalization containing the sounds within the God Of Cheese's title). Within seconds people from around the world are praying to the God Of Cheese and you become a rank 0 deity, immortality and respect among mortals. From there work to become a higher rank deity (and work on not being a scrawny nerd :smallbiggrin:).

Let's honest though, almost no DM would allow this, and another thing, it requires exploiting the (I think) rather flawed views expressed by many religions and American voters- e.g. by not voting you are voting for Team Red / Team Blue, or you make a mistake, but it is a sin, so you go to hell even though you had no intention of sinning in such a way (whatever that way may be). In this case, by simply speaking something that resembles "a variation of The Cheese God's name," you are praying to him/her.

[Inevitability]

I mean, scholars had some pretty advanced math even back in the medieval/renaissance period. Wizards with Int boosts might even be as far as we are with our computers - not in terms of computational power, of course, but as far as mathematical theory goes they'd be pretty set. Unless you've got a doctorate (I'm not saying you don't, but it's statistically unlikely) then anyone who has a need for the math probably already has it.

Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) seems like it'd be pretty good at substituting for supercomputers.

[Hecuba]

As it happens, I have some fairly significant wilderness survival experience.
I'm fairly out of practice: it's been over a decade since I've done anything more adventurous than a few days wandering off-trail in the Sonoran Desert or Yosemite.

Still, absent intervention of a random encounter I can't escape, I'm not likely to fall into the "die from exposure before reaching civilization" group.

So the next question is, can I find a way to level up.

Yes, probably. I don't like to hunt, but I do know how. I can scavenge and trap well enough to without supplies. I'm assuming trapping animals won't work for encounters/XP. But they will work getting dead animals and I know how to tan and treat leather. I can also use the fat of the animal to make soap.

Than means I should be able to arrange enough trade goods to purchase a decent bow and some arrows. That should open the way actual encounters against low CR animals, which will allow me to level up from Expert 2 or what have you and add a class level or two. Combined with retraining, that gives a lot of options for a cushy life.

Unless, of course, I die to a random encounter. Or get dropped in an environment where there are animals that are better at hunting me than I am at hunting them.

[Ruslan]

I would get myself hired as a career councilor to a magic school, making sure the wizarding students put optimized spells in their spellbooks. I would also make sure all of them that regular lessons in Agility and Health Studies, and forego Etiquette Studies completely. Also, no specialists will be allowed to choose Transmutation and/or Conjuration as their forbidden schools.

Fame of the school would spread far and wide as a result of its graduates being more successful at murderhoboing than graduates of other schools that teach less optimized spells.

[Virdish]

I would get myself hired as a career councilor to a magic school, making sure the wizarding students put optimized spells in their spellbooks. I would also make sure all of them that regular lessons in Agility and Health Studies, and forego Etiquette Studies completely. Also, no specialists will be allowed to choose Transmutation and/or Conjuration as their forbidden schools.

Fame of the school would spread far and wide as a result of its graduates being more successful at murderhoboing than graduates of other schools that teach less optimized spells.

I hope that while you are teaching the students to optimize themselves your taking advantage of your time and training as a wizard yourself.

[FocusWolf413]

Rule.

Pretty much like I do now, frankly.

Let's even the odds. A Solar tries to kill you as soon as you emerge from Hell.


My ranks in Profession (Tech Support)... oh geez...

Have you tried turning your wand off and back on again?

My wand won't turn on. How do I turn it off and on again if it won't turn on?


Ah. The for most of us, the correct answer is- Die from exposure.


You will need to get very, very lucky and spawn in a city with some form of support for its homeless just to get through night 1.

Or maybe you carry a lighter.

[Inevitability]

Let's even the odds. A Solar tries to kill you as soon as you emerge from Hell.

So Fel dies unless he's a highly skilled diplomancer?

I don't think the odds are in your favor there.

[Hiro]

Become a fighter to start off or Ranger.

I have the physical and mental ability to at least do that.

"d also think that the transfer over would imbue you with a working knowledge of the world (as muchyour mind could handle given knowledge of rules and all.)(

[Strigon]

Hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) seems like it'd be pretty good at substituting for supercomputers.

Considering how "stupid" (linear-thinking) modern computers are, I'd say that's a straight upgrade.

[Ruslan]

I hope that while you are teaching the students to optimize themselves your taking advantage of your time and training as a wizard yourself.
*shhh*, that's the secret part of the plan.

[John Longarrow]

Hmm... Get to any settlement. Apply for work as an accountant (always in demand) and work my way to a city where I can get a job working for the state. Then apply my skills working on the General Staff to aid the state in becoming far more militarily capable.

Gotta love that many modern issue on the battle field would directly translate into D&D. Plus being versed in the Art of War would make me a real asset to most field commanders.

[Red Fel]

Let's even the odds. A Solar tries to kill you as soon as you emerge from Hell.

Being Lawful Good, he permits me a few words before my destruction.

About a three hours later, my new fallen Solar friend and I are having a lovely chat whilst admiring the tapestries in our new castle.

As I said. Rule.


So Fel dies unless he's a highly skilled diplomancer?

I don't think the odds are in your favor there.

Someone understands.

[Eldest]

Without my prescription meds I'm basically dead.

Same here. If I do survive, and I translate properly into the fantasy world, I'm probably some sort of bard or factotum. So I find a quiet town someplace and try to get a job as a scribe or scholar, I suppose.

Edit:


Rule.

Pretty much like I do now, frankly.

If I see Red Fel or Tippy, ask if they need an agent in exchange for the meds somehow. I can't get it, I have no doubts Tippy can and I wouldn't be suprised if Red Fel wouldn't find a way for a minion. :smalltongue:

[FocusWolf413]

Being Lawful Good, he permits me a few words before my destruction.

About a three hours later, my new fallen Solar friend and I are having a lovely chat whilst admiring the tapestries in our new castle.

As I said. Rule.

This is just more accurate. If you ever found your way to the Prime Material Plane, someone would notice. Special rules for special fiends people.

[Zanos]

Yeah but if you were there in a realistic world then people would stop buying saddles because seriously who needs so much saddles or acid and why would they stay the same price, shouldn't the price be lowered since there are so much of those items in circulation?

You can also pull an economic trick with aid another, by hiring unskilled workers for very cheap to stack your total bonus ridiculously high. Build large, individual items that sell well that won't flood the market. The best thing I think was Craft(Ship). With enough (very cheap) unskilled labor, you can pump out ships in a week, and pay back all your debts and make a tidy profit very quickly.


As always, there are about two answers to these sorts of threads: the arrogant one and the honest one.

Arrogant answer: "I'd use my high Int score to start gaining Wizard levels and start chaining infinite wishes and win everything."
Honest answer: "I'd die." Probably of some horrible infection that the modern world has never heard of.
I don't think anyone's being that arrogant. Your intelligence doesn't have to be that high to be a wizard, and IIRC 16 or higher in a stat is something like 5% of the population. I think most D&D players by virtue of a modern education and interest in a hobby that's very math and combination intensive have at least decent intelligence scores. Gaining a level in wizard is also not particularly hard. You don't need any particular unique spark or special inclination to study wizard magic, just semi-decent intelligence to be able to cast spells. It's sort of unclear how long it would take to learn, anyway. +2d6 is the starting age for wizards, but you probably already have a class level, so I guess you just need XP? Still most people(myself included without shenanigans) are going to be dead very quickly before they can afford anything of the sort. I would personally look into retraining/rebuilding my (expert?) levels instead of actually stacking a wizard level on top. I don't think anyone claimed that they would do particularly well as a wizard, either, with most saying they could probably manage a handful of levels.

My particular path skips all of that by chaining wishes independent of any class features and doesn't really have any prerequisites. I don't consider that arrogant so much as Evil.

[Ruethgar]

Crunch: LN Human Expert 1

Class Skills: Lucid Dreaming:2, Profession(Masseuse):3, Computer Use:3, Knowledge(Earth and Life Sciences):2, Knowledge(Physical Sciences):3, Knowledge(Civics):1, Kowledge(Games):4, Concentrate:3, Autohypnosis:4, Craft(Writing):2
Skills:Knowledge(Theology and Philosophy):2, Swim:2, Climb:1, Craft(Structural):1, Handle Animal:2, Heal:1, Research:1, Repair:1
Flaws: Unreactive, Non-Combatant
Feats: Open Minded x3, Skill Focus(Know:Games)
Traits: Nearsighted, Skiny
Abilities:Str 8, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 11


First and foremost, Lucid Dream Spell Trap Gate to myself and Trans-Dimensional True Create an Elvencraft Bow Bladed Close Fighting Blade Longbow with built in Ravenloft super battery Create Device(Staff) and Wand Chambers(8 of them) with Create Device(Wands) for some of my favorite spells. I don't think I would go overboard with that power, there are things I don't want to draw the attention of in the D&D universes, but I would definitely get Kissed by the Ages for the Endless quality. Second, make a War Extended 40 CL Rope Trick, become intimately familiar with it, let it collapse and make a Mobile Stronghold Create Device Portal to the space for a home.

Staff: Cooling Canopy(W), Prestidigitation(W), Nurturing Seeds(W), Animate Wood(W), Animate Vines(Rope)(W), Wood Wose(W), Entangle(W), Produce Flame(W), Nature's Rampart, Chaos Shuffle, Create Food and Water, Plant Growth, Create Element, SNA IX, Guidance of the Avatar, and Tongues(because that's a good point about what if Common isn't our primary language).

After setting up the home all nice and cozy, I would join a druid order and Rebuild to Fey Bloodline 3/Companion Focus Plant Druid 6. Leveling to 6 I would adventure a bit to expidite things and get some good survival going, but as many non-combat as I can. I would get a casting of Elemental Familiar for my plant and pretty much live happily around there slowly doing non-combat encounters to level.

I would eventually go home of course, Fearun is canonically connected to Earth and all the setting are linked(even if travel is difficult in some).

[Xerlith]

Decent Str and Int scores, low Wisdom and Dexterity, mediocre Con and Charisma, proficiency with a shortbow, being jack-of-all trades and a rather well-trained musician...

I'd probably plop in as an Expert 1 or (with a bit of luck) Bardic Sage 1.
Realistically, I'd proceed to Take 10 on my Perform (Wind) or Perform (String) checks to scrape by, hopefully leveling up by overcoming some low-risk non-combat encounters.
As soon as I hit level 3 I pick Craft Wondrous Item, then proceed to pump out some low-end magic convenience items based on our modern appliances.
If I secure some kind of an XP income (No way I'm adventuring though), I'm good. I'd probably try to get back to Earth via high-level magic, so I'd retrain my Bard levels into Wizard at some point.

I mean, I have family here. Friends. And if the levels carry over, significant cosmic power.

[Masema]

Decent Str and Int scores, low Wisdom and Dexterity, mediocre Con and Charisma, proficiency with a shortbow, being jack-of-all trades and a rather well-trained musician...

I'd probably plop in as an Expert 1 or (with a bit of luck) Bardic Sage 1.
Realistically, I'd proceed to Take 10 on my Perform (Wind) or Perform (String) checks to scrape by, hopefully leveling up by overcoming some low-risk non-combat encounters.
As soon as I hit level 3 I pick Craft Wondrous Item, then proceed to pump out some low-end magic convenience items based on our modern appliances.
If I secure some kind of an XP income (No way I'm adventuring though), I'm good. I'd probably try to get back to Earth via high-level magic, so I'd retrain my Bard levels into Wizard at some point.

I mean, I have family here. Friends. And if the levels carry over, significant cosmic power.

Too bad there's no "Like" button here. I'd hit it for this.

[danielxcutter]

Anyone with a good Charisma score and enough ranks in Diplomacy could make a living easily. Or should I say, Diplomancy? :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Potential complication; are we assuming that common is English? If it's not, things get a lot more complicated.

[danielxcutter]

Potential complication; are we assuming that common is English? If it's not, things get a lot more complicated.

True; if it isn't then it seems very likely that we'd appear in the middle of a village and be burned at the stake, because "we were speaking the language of the fiends". No really, if people burn Sorcerers at the stake, why not us?

[Bad Wolf]

Considering the amount of knowledge we know, we could do a lot. For example, we know about how Demogorgon's heads hate each other, that ithilids don't actually merge with the Elder Brain, about all the juicy secrets of the Nine Hell's.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Afgncaap5
…the Journeyman class was never actually released, but in the minds of many it's a class that exists in the Eberron campaign world.

--Wait, what? I've never heard of this class before.

The name alone has me intrigued. What's the concept? And is there a beta version or a playtest floating around?

.

[Venger]

--Wait, what? I've never heard of this class before.

The name alone has me intrigued. What's the concept? And is there a beta version or a playtest floating around?

.

The concept is the mundane person who gets dragged along in adventures with you crazy kids. baker touches on it here (http://keith-baker.com/category/gaming/eberron-faq/) and mentions it's a skillmonkey with luck-based powers and extra action dice, but that's as far as they got.

[Hecuba]

Being Lawful Good, he permits me a few words before my destruction.

About a three hours later, my new fallen Solar friend and I are having a lovely chat whilst admiring the tapestries in our new castle.

As I said. Rule.

See! This is what your absurd "morality axis" gets you: inter-universal migration, unscheduled regime changes, outsiders sticking around on the wrong plane to obscure perfectly good geometric walls with some disordered fabric mess they call "art."

Chaos. Absolute madness. It's not even worth thinking about the mess we'd have if he were non-Lawful.

Next time, don't send a Solar to do a Secundus's job.

[danielxcutter]

Considering the amount of knowledge we know, we could do a lot. For example, we know about how Demogorgon's heads hate each other, that ithilids don't actually merge with the Elder Brain, about all the juicy secrets of the Nine Hell's.

If they don't destroy us for knowing too much, that is.

Btw, it would be fun if 50 of us were dropped on the Prime Material Plane with a level in a PC class. I'd give us about 5 years, tops, before we took over half the multiverse.

[TaiLiu]

Unless you've got a doctorate (I'm not saying you don't, but it's statistically unlikely) then anyone who has a need for the math probably already has it.
He has a doctorate. :smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

If I see Red Fel or Tippy, ask if they need an agent in exchange for the meds somehow. I can't get it, I have no doubts Tippy can and I wouldn't be suprised if Red Fel wouldn't find a way for a minion. :smalltongue:

Do you even have to ask?

Honestly, if I found other "real world" people, I'd probably just keep them around in a non-minion capacity. Like guests. From a pragmatic perspective, it's valuable to keep people who know the "truth" where I can see them, and from a personal perspective, it would be nice to have people to discuss my favorite Game of Thrones episodes with.

Simple conversation is an undervalued commodity.


This is just more accurate. If you ever found your way to the Prime Material Plane, someone would notice. Special rules for special fiends people.

Of course people would notice. Have you never read Elder Evils?


See! This is what your absurd "morality axis" gets you: inter-universal migration, unscheduled regime changes, outsiders sticking around on the wrong plane to obscure perfectly good geometric walls with some disordered fabric mess they call "art."

Chaos. Absolute madness. It's not even worth thinking about the mess we'd have if he were non-Lawful.

Next time, don't send a Solar to do a Secundus's job.

Hey, don't label me, chief. Believe it or not, I'm in favor of change.

I'm pretty sure I'd jump from "high-ranking Devil" to "Elder Evil" simply by convincing an increasingly worrisome number of powerful named Outsiders to abandon this whole stupid "arbitrary morality" system. And let's be honest, given that the Succubus Paladin is a canonical thing, does anyone really doubt that I could turn the alignment grid into some kind of alignment Moebius braid?

[danielxcutter]

Do you even have to ask?

Honestly, if I found other "real world" people, I'd probably just keep them around in a non-minion capacity. Like guests. From a pragmatic perspective, it's valuable to keep people who know the "truth" where I can see them, and from a personal perspective, it would be nice to have people to discuss my favorite Game of Thrones episodes with.

Simple conversation is an undervalued commodity.

I agree that having people to have casual conversations with, especially people from our world, is a greater treasure than the Ruby Rod of Asmodeus itself.


Of course people would notice. Have you never read Elder Evils?

Well, a being with almost complete knowledge of the rules governing the multiverse and how to exploit them is quite dangerous...


Hey, don't label me, chief. Believe it or not, I'm in favor of change.

I'm pretty sure I'd jump from "high-ranking Devil" to "Elder Evil" simply by convincing an increasingly worrisome number of powerful named Outsiders to abandon this whole stupid "arbitrary morality" system. And let's be honest, given that the Succubus Paladin is a canonical thing, does anyone really doubt that I could turn the alignment grid into some kind of alignment Moebius braid?

A)I never understood why people think Lawful = stagnation. Someone who's Lawful has a set of rules which they are loath to break, no more.

B)Yeah, I don't really like the morality axis system either. If your main objective was to rip it down then I'd gladly join you.

[Red Fel]

I agree that having people to have casual conversations with, especially people from our world, is a greater treasure than the Ruby Rod of Asmodeus itself.

Hey, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

I mean, that's a really nice Ruby Rod, there.


Well, a being with almost complete knowledge of the rules governing the multiverse and how to exploit them is quite dangerous...

Also, I'm pretty sure I'd figure out how to make the sky bleed at some point, and just do it for kicks.


A)I never understood why people think Lawful = stagnation. Someone who's Lawful has a set of rules which they are loath to break, no more.

B)Yeah, I don't really like the morality axis system either. If your main objective was to rip it down then I'd gladly join you.

Yes... Join us. Our glorious revolution will upend the puerile system that for too long has held a stranglehold over the Planes. The gods themselves will be torn down, replaced with a new world order, one in which my army - a perfect army of Demons and Angels, Devils and Archons, Inevitables and Slaad - will spread across the cosmos like a seething tide of dominance, a glorious extension of my will.

And after that? We figure out how to get Netflix across the planar divide. And HBO.

I need my Game of Thrones fix.

[danielxcutter]

Hey, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

I mean, that's a really nice Ruby Rod, there.

True... but having both is best.


Also, I'm pretty sure I'd figure out how to make the sky bleed at some point, and just do it for kicks.

Maybe, maybe not, but I'd strongly advise against it. Not that you couldn't, I suppose...


Yes... Join us. Our glorious revolution will upend the puerile system that for too long has held a stranglehold over the Planes. The gods themselves will be torn down, replaced with a new world order, one in which my army - a perfect army of Demons and Angels, Devils and Archons, Inevitables and Slaad - will spread across the cosmos like a seething tide of dominance, a glorious extension of my will.

And after that? We figure out how to get Netflix across the planar divide. And HBO.

I need my Game of Thrones fix.

I never liked the D&D gods either. Believe me, even the "Good" gods are sort of jerks. I mean, they're gods. They should use their powers, but they just sit and do nothing.

And it would be nice if you could get wireless Internet connection as well.

[Eldest]

Yes... Join us. Our glorious revolution will upend the puerile system that for too long has held a stranglehold over the Planes. The gods themselves will be torn down, replaced with a new world order, one in which my army - a perfect army of Demons and Angels, Devils and Archons, Inevitables and Slaad - will spread across the cosmos like a seething tide of dominance, a glorious extension of my will.

And after that? We figure out how to get Netflix across the planar divide. And HBO.

I need my Game of Thrones fix.

Wait, that's your main goal? What's the plan, bossman?

[danielxcutter]

Wait, that's your main goal? What's the plan, bossman?

Now, now. Be patient. After all, evil plans take time to put in action...

[Echch]

I'd probably be a Commoner and take the corpse flaw at my first level... Whether I want that or not.

[John Longarrow]

Red Fel,

Come on, we know you'd show up as a chicken infested commoner.. and proceed to cause a black hole to consume the entire crystal sphere to sacrifice all as a method to become a God.

[Ruethgar]

Red Fel,

Come on, we know you'd show up as a chicken infested commoner.. and proceed to cause a black hole to consume the entire crystal sphere to sacrifice all as a method to become a God.

That seems a bit extreme. All you need to do is get a Mirror Mephit Familiar for NI divine rank(lvl 7) or Pazuzu Wish for control of a Simicarlum for a few ranks then power level. You could also easily do that trial(Trial of Starstone I think). Magic doesn't work well for it explicitly, but Ravenloft offers an equally potent, if expensive, alternative for Scry and Teleport.

[Erit]

Probably get mistaken for some kind of fae and either have a cabal of worshippers, or be captured and executed. I'm 6'2" tall, thin as a rail and a swarthy inland Californian bastard to boot, chances are good I resemble some monster or another.

If my appearance adjusts in such a manner as to not make me stick out like a sore thumb? I use my above-average Strength and Con scores to work in some kind of manual job, maybe smithing since I know enough of chemistry and metallurgy that I could make decent money repairing tools. Or be a clockmaker; clockmakers made pretty mad cash in times gone by. Dunno if they still do. Once I have some kind of livelihood through those means, I'd keep my head down in case one or more of the greater Playgrounders show up; no sense making entities likely far more powerful than I feel like I might become a nuisance.

[Zanos]

Wait, that's your main goal? What's the plan, bossman?
Watch Game of Thrones, duh. I assume Red Rel's blood pools are in 4k now?

[John Longarrow]

Erit, in the IE? Where abouts?

[FocusWolf413]

Potential complication; are we assuming that common is English? If it's not, things get a lot more complicated.

For you, it's Icelandic.



I'm pretty sure I'd jump from "high-ranking Devil"...

So humble. Anyway, I'd actually kind of like to see a world that you rule. I mean, it would kind of suck not having any real freedom, but we don't have that anyway, the illusion isn't very comforting, and under you, life would actually probably be pretty good for normal people. That is, if you deliver.

[WhatThePhysics]

I'd light a cigarette to calm my nerves, then pray to myself with the hope that I can become a cleric. If that works, b-line towards Planar Ally to start an infinite wish loop. If that doesn't work, I'd try to find the nearest psion monastery and b-line towards Astral Caravan and Psychic Reformation.

Establish a reputation as a friendly wandering problem solver. Make coin by retelling existing media compatible with local cultures, and further bootstrap economies into post-industrialization while preventing inefficient technologies from ever being invented.

Pick up Craft Universal/Wondrous Item, then build technology powered by divine magic/psionics to improve the standard of living. If possible, gain access to arcane and other supernatural effects to optimize the gestalt.

Build a practically immortal and self-sufficient interplanar, space-faring civilization, then try to prevent the end of the multiverse.

[LordOfCain]

This would make an awesome PBP campaign.

[danielxcutter]

This would make an awesome PBP campaign.

I think there was a fanfic or something where a couple dozen people from our world were sent to 3.5 D&D or something and actually did pretty well. Not that it wouldn't be totally kickass as a PBP campaign, of course...

[RazorChain]

Get my hand on alchemy set, start nitrating some glycerol, make dynamite. Blow up dungeons, gain lots of XP from wholesale slaughter of monsters. Dig up the treasure. Start a company called monster mining. Get to max level in whatever class. Make a steam engine tanks with rocket propelled grenades, take over the world.

[Inevitability]

I think there was a fanfic or something where a couple dozen people from our world were sent to 3.5 D&D or something and actually did pretty well. Not that it wouldn't be totally kickass as a PBP campaign, of course...

Do you have a link, by any chance?

[danielxcutter]

Do you have a link, by any chance?

I don't, but there was one on Tvtropes, on the Dungeons and Dragons FanficRecs page.

[Strigon]

He has a doctorate. :smalltongue:

Huh. A Phd in mathematics. Well, that figures, doesn't it?

Danzibr, I retract my previous statement, and substitute it with an apology.

[GrayDeath]

Hmmmm, given the Fact that aside from Dexterity (I tend to be slow and clumsy, at least moreso than average) my Stats are slighlty (Cha, Con) to a medium bit (Int) above average, but none of them is great, I`d probably gravitate towards one of the less Statdependant Classes .... IF I, as an assumed Expert L2, survive the first few days.

As I take faith seriously I would not simply start worshipping who/Whatever I got dropped closest to, so no ClericJumping.

later on, if I find the chance and Time, I would probably gravitate towards Wizard (as only Work and Int are necessary) or something pacty (Binder or Warlock), or depending on the exact Setting maybe its more Incarnum or psionics. Any way, lacking any prerexisting Talent sadly removes my actually favoured Classes....sigh.

[Kelb_Panthera]

For you, it's Icelandic.

Oh dear. That does make things much more difficult. It'd be difficult to even figure out what world I'm on. My plan remains the same but now I also get to try to figure out how to communicate wth hostile strangers all along the way. With any luck, I can find my way to a city with a temple to a commerce god and maybe find someone I can communicate with or, rather, someone who can employ magic to communicate with me.

Unless english is like rashemi or goblin or something like that.

[Masema]

Unless english is like rashemi or goblin or something like that.
OR abyssal. Praying to Pelor that it's not Abyssal.

[GrayDeath]

HMmm, very likely wrong target for that prayer, given the Burning Hate`s .... predesposition. ^^

[Doctor Awkward]

It's interesting to me to read all of the responses where one's survival is contingent on the kindness of strangers.

Human beings in our world are generally kind to one another for tribal reasons because we know survival chances are higher as a group than as individuals. It's this instinct that leads people to be optimists, and to expect the best out of their fellows.

But you are applying these same principles to a world in which metaphysical laws are clearly defined, absolute and readily available to the general populace.

For instance, suppose you were to walk into a temple and throw yourself upon the mercy of the clerics and they decide to cast any of the series of Detect Alignment spells on you.

What do you expect them to see?

[Masema]

HMmm, very likely wrong target for that prayer, given the Burning Hate`s .... predesposition. ^^

Then who should I pray to, considering that he is the God of all that is Good and Holy.

[Strigon]

...
For instance, suppose you were to walk into a temple and throw yourself upon the mercy of the clerics and they decide to cast any of the series of Detect Alignment spells on you.

What do you expect them to see?

Somewhere on the upper-left quadrant. I've never really been tested in a major way, alignment wise, but I've been pretty much moral and dependable.

[GrayDeath]

It's interesting to me to read all of the responses where one's survival is contingent on the kindness of strangers.

Human beings in our world are generally kind to one another for tribal reasons because we know survival chances are higher as a group than as individuals. It's this instinct that leads people to be optimists, and to expect the best out of their fellows.

But you are applying these same principles to a world in which metaphysical laws are clearly defined, absolute and readily available to the general populace.

For instance, suppose you were to walk into a temple and throw yourself upon the mercy of the clerics and they decide to cast any of the series of Detect Alignment spells on you.

What do you expect them to see?


Hmmmm, following a lot of "Hat Alignment would I be" Tests, I am very much of the thought that I`d ping as Chaotig Good or maybe (if I am in a particular bad place atm" Chaotic neutral to true neutral.
I am neither focussed enough on Good to be Neutral Good nor Holy enough to be LG, but neither am I iun any way or form evil, so....yeh.


Then who should I pray to, considering that he is the God of all that is Good and Holy.

May Lord Pelor the Bruning Hatred Bathe you in his radiance and sear away any Imperfections
:smallcool:

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's interesting to me to read all of the responses where one's survival is contingent on the kindness of strangers.

Human beings in our world are generally kind to one another for tribal reasons because we know survival chances are higher as a group than as individuals. It's this instinct that leads people to be optimists, and to expect the best out of their fellows.

But you are applying these same principles to a world in which metaphysical laws are clearly defined, absolute and readily available to the general populace.

For instance, suppose you were to walk into a temple and throw yourself upon the mercy of the clerics and they decide to cast any of the series of Detect Alignment spells on you.

What do you expect them to see?

Probably nothing. Maybe a weak lawful ping. I'm quite confident I'm either neutral or lawful neutral. Not that I'd imagine it would be much of a concern to a deity of commerce and certainly not to The Uncaring One.

[Virdish]

I expect i would be chaotic good. I believe in humanitarian principles and if the law gets in the way of them then I believe it needs to be done away with.

[Red Fel]

And it would be nice if you could get wireless Internet connection as well.

See that? That's the kind of thinking that gets you a promotion.


Wait, that's your main goal? What's the plan, bossman?

Think about it this way. Take your average, middling-accomplished individual, reasonably intelligent, somewhat savvy. Put him in a medieval fantasy world. If he isn't quickly killed, he'll use common-level modern knowledge, and do something - like triggering an industrial revolution - that winds up with him obscenely wealthy and living in the lap of luxury.

Now, replace Joe Blow with me.

Do I even need a plan? Arrive, gain power and influence, revolutionize the world, become a living god, retire to a palace the size of a small town. Be worshiped and served until I die/ become immortal/ ascend to godhood.

It ain't complicated.


Red Fel,

Come on, we know you'd show up as a chicken infested commoner.. and proceed to cause a black hole to consume the entire crystal sphere to sacrifice all as a method to become a God.

If I showed up as a chicken infested commoner? You'd better believe I'm taking down the entire crystal sphere.

No way I'm putting up with that kind of indignity. And if I have to go, everything goes with me.


Watch Game of Thrones, duh. I assume Red Rel's blood pools are in 4k now?

You know it. Only the highest quality plasma displays.


So humble. Anyway, I'd actually kind of like to see a world that you rule. I mean, it would kind of suck not having any real freedom, but we don't have that anyway, the illusion isn't very comforting, and under you, life would actually probably be pretty good for normal people. That is, if you deliver.

You'd be surprised. The key to a good totalitarian regime is that life at the bottom changes fairly little. Go watch Brazil to see what I mean. The big change would be that the justice system would be quick and severe, and that every citizen would have absolute confidence that the laws would be enforced. For the average Joe who goes through his regular life, working and obeying the law, nothing changes but that knowledge. Less crime, true, but not like I'm promising a chicken in every pot or anything. Just a guarantee that if you work hard enough, are smart enough, and are ruthless enough, you can climb to any height. Well, almost any - I'm still the guy on top.

Also, we'd have really good shows. Bread and circuses, yo. I'm thinking we could get a D&D version of Stranger Things that would be straight-up meta.


For instance, suppose you were to walk into a temple and throw yourself upon the mercy of the clerics and they decide to cast any of the series of Detect Alignment spells on you.

What do you expect them to see?

Very little after that. I expect they'd go blind.

[Eldest]

RAW? Chaotic Evil. BoVD is stupid but has alignment rules.

[Vizzerdrix]

I think for most, Gond or Cas would be fitting.

[John Longarrow]

It's interesting to me to read all of the responses where one's survival is contingent on the kindness of strangers.

Human beings in our world are generally kind to one another for tribal reasons because we know survival chances are higher as a group than as individuals. It's this instinct that leads people to be optimists, and to expect the best out of their fellows.

But you are applying these same principles to a world in which metaphysical laws are clearly defined, absolute and readily available to the general populace.

For instance, suppose you were to walk into a temple and throw yourself upon the mercy of the clerics and they decide to cast any of the series of Detect Alignment spells on you.

What do you expect them to see?

Decades of putting the needs of the many before my own? Upper part of the quadrant. I've even got the paperwork to back it up. :-)

[Inevitability]

For instance, suppose you were to walk into a temple and throw yourself upon the mercy of the clerics and they decide to cast any of the series of Detect Alignment spells on you.

What do you expect them to see?

Definitely Lawful, probably LN. I have some slight LE and LG tendencies, but I'm quite confident it comes down to LN overall, which I'm fine with (as far as afterlives go, Mechanus isn't that bad).

[PaucaTerrorem]

Find an inn.
Start cooking for them.
Marry bar wench.
Get disease.
Die painfully.

[Inevitability]

Find an inn.
Start cooking for them.
Marry bar wench.
Get disease.
Die painfully.

I doubt a good-aligned temple with access to Remove Disease is going to leave someone to die.

[flappeercraft]

For instance, suppose you were to walk into a temple and throw yourself upon the mercy of the clerics and they decide to cast any of the series of Detect Alignment spells on you.

What do you expect them to see?

Probably Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil probably more of the latter. Honestly I would just go to a church of Hextor for assistance if I needed the help of any church, join them and stuff, probably would go the path of arcane caster using shenanigans obviously and then assist them with my power as a reward for helping me.

[Doctor Awkward]

Somewhere on the upper-left quadrant. I've never really been tested in a major way, alignment wise, but I've been pretty much moral and dependable.


Hmmmm, following a lot of "Hat Alignment would I be" Tests, I am very much of the thought that I`d ping as Chaotig Good or maybe (if I am in a particular bad place atm" Chaotic neutral to true neutral.
I am neither focussed enough on Good to be Neutral Good nor Holy enough to be LG, but neither am I iun any way or form evil, so....yeh.


Probably nothing. Maybe a weak lawful ping. I'm quite confident I'm either neutral or lawful neutral. Not that I'd imagine it would be much of a concern to a deity of commerce and certainly not to The Uncaring One.


Decades of putting the needs of the many before my own? Upper part of the quadrant. I've even got the paperwork to back it up. :-)

These are not at all unexpected responses. No one truly believes themselves to be evil. Even a token respect for authority and the rule of law is a sign of decency and humility. And the belief that you would happily flaunt of authority in the face of oppression is enlightenment thinking at it's finest.

It would be wonderfully simple if you could be sure you weren't lying.

Introspective examinations are hard. Especially if you don't know exactly what you are looking for.


Think about it this way. Take your average, middling-accomplished individual, reasonably intelligent, somewhat savvy. Put him in a medieval fantasy world. If he isn't quickly killed, he'll use common-level modern knowledge, and do something - like triggering an industrial revolution - that winds up with him obscenely wealthy and living in the lap of luxury.

Now, replace Joe Blow with me.

Do I even need a plan? Arrive, gain power and influence, revolutionize the world, become a living god, retire to a palace the size of a small town. Be worshiped and served until I die/ become immortal/ ascend to godhood.

It ain't complicated.

Indeed. Very straightforward. Very moving.

The wish fulfillment fantasy of a true tyrant. :smallbiggrin:


You'd be surprised. The key to a good totalitarian regime is that life at the bottom changes fairly little. Go watch Brazil to see what I mean. The big change would be that the justice system would be quick and severe, and that every citizen would have absolute confidence that the laws would be enforced. For the average Joe who goes through his regular life, working and obeying the law, nothing changes but that knowledge. Less crime, true, but not like I'm promising a chicken in every pot or anything. Just a guarantee that if you work hard enough, are smart enough, and are ruthless enough, you can climb to any height. Well, almost any - I'm still the guy on top.

I'm tickled by your use of the phrase "good totalitarian".
A system of government in which the populace is beholden to the state through a codified and exacting set of laws, and which inculcates obedience in the populace by feeding them a steady diet of mainstream propaganda mostly centered on national pride and utter faith in those in power. It's a system whose success depends entirely on rigidly maintaining the rule of law at all costs. By it's very definition, it cannot be good, in exactly the same way the plane of Mechanus cannot ever be good, at the risk of annihilating itself.

In effect, life would change for everyone, since the rule of law must be absolute for the system to function. The laws do not serve the needs of the people, they serve the needs of the system. The only possible guarantee you could ever make anyone in such a system is that they will serve the needs of the system, and that they will climb exactly as high as the current, or anticipated, needs of the system dictate.

[Stryyke]

Let's see. To start, I would classify myself as somewhere between chaotic neutral, and neutral evil.
I have a PhD in gravitational physics. So I could use some general physics knowledge, but my specialty wouldn't be terribly useful. But I think I can safely say that I would have between 16 and 18 INT, a 14ish Con, 10 Wis, 10 Dex, 9 STR, 7 CHA. Or there-abouts. So my first goal would be to learn any spell that I can sell for coin. Work my way up till I can teleport, and become an expensive medieval taxi service. I would use the money to keep learning, until I can achieve some form of immortality. Then invulnerability. Then retire to a nice cottage somewhere, and kill anyone who comes withing 10 miles of me.

[Strigon]

Introspective examinations are hard. Especially if you don't know exactly what you are looking for.



Agreed. Fortunately, we have entire books on what to look for.
Haven't you seen the alignment threads here? It always boils down to "the rulebooks say this, but that's stupid so we're going to try to salvage something that makes sense".

We know exactly what constitutes Good, Evil, Chaotic and Neutral. And, heck, if you really need proof, take a look at any first-party Evil character. They pretty much all hurt people regularly, in some form or another. I do not, so I'm comfortable saying I'm not Evil, at the very least. Expecting Good people to help someone in need is hardly a stretch, and it still wouldn't be a stretch even if that person were Evil. Unless you know that they're about to cause harm to someone else, and you can't possibly stop them, letting an Evil person die is not Good behaviour. Killing an Evil person who needs to be stopped? Good people will do that. Refusing to help an Evil person just because he pinged Evil? Not Good. Or at least enough of a grey area that - if I were Evil - I could find someone to help.

Now, I'm not saying I'm incapable of Evil acts; I could certainly fall if pushed hard enough, especially if a loved one was in danger, but capacity for Evil acts != Evil alignment. If it did, no Paladin would ever fall, because the only LG people would be the ones who can never perform Evil or Chaotic acts.

[danielxcutter]

I'm tickled by your use of the phrase "good totalitarian".
A system of government in which the populace is beholden to the state through a codified and exacting set of laws, and which inculcates obedience in the populace by feeding them a steady diet of mainstream propaganda mostly centered on national pride and utter faith in those in power. It's a system whose success depends entirely on rigidly maintaining the rule of law at all costs. By it's very definition, it cannot be good, in exactly the same way the plane of Mechanus cannot ever be good, at the risk of annihilating itself.

In effect, life would change for everyone, since the rule of law must be absolute for the system to function. The laws do not serve the needs of the people, they serve the needs of the system. The only possible guarantee you could ever make anyone in such a system is that they will serve the needs of the system, and that they will climb exactly as high as the current, or anticipated, needs of the system dictate.

You know, I think it wouldn't be that hard to provide minimum sustenance to everyone.

In this thread, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?422326-Wondering-About-Population-Army-Sizes) there's a mention of using a use-activated item of create food and water to provide the peasants with infinite food. ExLibrisMortis makes a strong argument that a village could save enough money to buy one.

It isn't too much of a stretch to think that the ruler of the multiverse would be able to provide every village with one.

[LordOfCain]

RAW? Chaotic Evil. BoVD is stupid but has alignment rules.
Why automatically chaotic evil?

[Virdish]

So there was some interest in a campaign based on this notion so I did a thing. I created a recruitment thread looking for some players and a DM. Thought I'd link the recruitment here so people could jump in if they are interested.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507897-Woke-up-in-3-5&p=21452845#post21452845

[Eldest]

Why automatically chaotic evil?

Because the writers of BoVD invented Vile, a term for horrible evil deeds, and then labeled some stupid, rather innocent stuff as Vile. This is going off memory, I haven't read the book in ages, but still a terrible book. If we were ignoring it, I could argue for any of the three Chaotic alignments, but still most likely Neutral or Evil. I simply don't care about other people unless I feel a connection to them, it's just stupid to hurt other people without a big enough payout.

[LordOfCain]

Because the writers of BoVD invented Vile, a term for horrible evil deeds, and then labeled some stupid, rather innocent stuff as Vile. This is going off memory, I haven't read the book in ages, but still a terrible book. If we were ignoring it, I could argue for any of the three Chaotic alignments, but still most likely Neutral or Evil. I simply don't care about other people unless I feel a connection to them, it's just stupid to hurt other people without a big enough payout.
Okay, just curious.

[Eldest]

Okay, just curious.

In my own defense, I'd argue I'm still a decent person. Just not a Good one. Easiest way to get what you want is to have friends who have it, after all. So you make friends.

[Esprit15]

As an expert 1 or 2? Get a job teaching and look into studying magic if I have the knack for it. Still, while above average, I'm probably not intelligent enough to even qualify for the elite array. Of course, all those adventurers need someone to be the mentor who sends them on their way to go save the land, and someone who knows the best things to practice and train in would better serve as said mentor than as the person risking death on a regular basis.

[Masema]

In my own defense, I'd argue I'm still a decent person. Just not a Good one. Easiest way to get what you want is to have friends who have it, after all. So you make friends.

Perhaps this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507902-Slightly-Alternate-Alignment-System&p=21453082#post21453082)might be something you'd be interested in?

[Kelb_Panthera]

These are not at all unexpected responses. No one truly believes themselves to be evil. Even a token respect for authority and the rule of law is a sign of decency and humility. And the belief that you would happily flaunt of authority in the face of oppression is enlightenment thinking at it's finest.

As was pointed out upthread, we know -exaclty- what to look for to determine alignment based on the actual game rules. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm almost pathological in my introspection, a natural consequence of being a severe introvert with little to do with most of his time. I'm also entirely too predisposed to putting factual accuracy above basically anything, to the point that it often lands me in an argument with my friends, that I seriously doubt I've deluded myself.

I do have an inclination to some of the behavior that BoVD marks as being evil. At the same time, I don't act on those impulses (sometimes with difficulty) and I occasionally engage in Good behavior; solid neutral on that axis. Though I -could- see myself sliding toward good in the OP's hypothetical if circumstances conspire but that's not terribly likely.

I also have an appreciation for the weight of tradition (though I'm not comfortable with -blind- adherence to it) and feel quite strongly about the importance of the rule of law. Personal freedom is definitely a positive thing (though not a good one by RAW) and I don't much care for the idea of it being infringed without good reason but I'm not about to shirk tradition or duty just because I don't like what's expected unless it pushes quite strongly against my moral outlook. That certainly reads as lawful by my understanding of the rules.


It would be wonderfully simple if you could be sure you weren't lying.

Might've phrased that better as "... deluding yourself." Again, pretty sure I'm not. I could be but I don't see any part of what goes on in my life that would make it probable; low-stress, happy and committed relationship (just shy of 10 years now), no desire for temporal power (can't take it with you at the end), no desire to be anyone's savior or damnation.... Gods I'm a dull bastard.



Indeed. Very straightforward. Very moving.

The wish fulfillment fantasy of a true tyrant. :smallbiggrin:

Well, yeah. It's RedFel. He's kinda famous for that around here.




I'm tickled by your use of the phrase "good totalitarian".

95% sure he meant good as in successful, not good as in morally upstanding. It's basic statecraft as layed out by Mahchiavelli; if you want to hold a principality after you take it, change little for the peasantry lest they rise in revolt. Though, Red put his own little orwellian spin on it with his police being draconian in their enforcement of his law.

He displays the knowledge of a statesman-strategist with some frequency. :smallamused:

[danzibr]

I mean, scholars had some pretty advanced math even back in the medieval/renaissance period. Wizards with Int boosts might even be as far as we are with our computers - not in terms of computational power, of course, but as far as mathematical theory goes they'd be pretty set. Unless you've got a doctorate (I'm not saying you don't, but it's statistically unlikely) then anyone who has a need for the math probably already has it.

He has a doctorate. :smalltongue:
Indeed! :P

Didn't expect anyone to know that.

Huh. A Phd in mathematics. Well, that figures, doesn't it?

Danzibr, I retract my previous statement, and substitute it with an apology.
Totally fine! Not a very useful PhD, I'm afraid. Went the pure math route, dissertation's on Quasi-Metric Geometry.

But anyway, the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus wasn't discovered/invented until Isaac Newton's and Gottfried Leibniz's time, late 1600's. Then all the Calculus nonsense, infinitesimals and limits and whatnot, weren't made rigorous until Karl Weierstrass, late 1800's. That kind of stuff a math major would learn in undergrad. I imagine D&D math would be before Calculus, so even a person with just a BS in math would bring a lot to the table.

[Eldest]

Perhaps this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507902-Slightly-Alternate-Alignment-System&p=21453082#post21453082)might be something you'd be interested in?

"As likely to set allies alight as enemies"? Heck no, I'd only set allies on fire if I was gaining something worth burning (:smallbiggrin:) the friendship. That's a pretty bad chart when it comes to CE with brains, IMO.

EDIT: I realized this might derail into an alignment argument, so I'm not going to reply about my beliefs about my alignment in D&D terms anymore.

[Zanos]

Because the writers of BoVD invented Vile, a term for horrible evil deeds, and then labeled some stupid, rather innocent stuff as Vile. This is going off memory, I haven't read the book in ages, but still a terrible book. If we were ignoring it, I could argue for any of the three Chaotic alignments, but still most likely Neutral or Evil. I simply don't care about other people unless I feel a connection to them, it's just stupid to hurt other people without a big enough payout.
Yeah, if I recall masochism is one of those stupid things that makes you automatically Evil. There's a couple others in there too.


I'm tickled by your use of the phrase "good totalitarian".
A system of government in which the populace is beholden to the state through a codified and exacting set of laws, and which inculcates obedience in the populace by feeding them a steady diet of mainstream propaganda mostly centered on national pride and utter faith in those in power. It's a system whose success depends entirely on rigidly maintaining the rule of law at all costs. By it's very definition, it cannot be good, in exactly the same way the plane of Mechanus cannot ever be good, at the risk of annihilating itself.

In effect, life would change for everyone, since the rule of law must be absolute for the system to function. The laws do not serve the needs of the people, they serve the needs of the system. The only possible guarantee you could ever make anyone in such a system is that they will serve the needs of the system, and that they will climb exactly as high as the current, or anticipated, needs of the system dictate.
Not D&D Good. But it's possible for a system that relies on an autocratic style of government to be both prosperous and successful. The issue being that these governments only endure as long as a strong, intelligent, and skilled autocrat guides them, and tend to collapse soon after that autocrat loses power. One need only look to the formation of the Roman Empire as an example of this.

[Masema]

"As likely to set allies alight as enemies"? Heck no, I'd only set allies on fire if I was gaining something worth burning (:smallbiggrin:) the friendship. That's a pretty bad chart when it comes to CE with brains, IMO.

EDIT: I realized this might derail into an alignment argument, so I'm not going to reply about my beliefs about my alignment in D&D terms anymore.

That particular one... was not well thought out I will admit. Though perhaps you'd fit in better with :thog:

[Doctor Awkward]

As was pointed out upthread, we know -exaclty- what to look for to determine alignment based on the actual game rules. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm almost pathological in my introspection, a natural consequence of being a severe introvert with little to do with most of his time. I'm also entirely too predisposed to putting factual accuracy above basically anything, to the point that it often lands me in an argument with my friends, that I seriously doubt I've deluded myself.

I do have an inclination to some of the behavior that BoVD marks as being evil. At the same time, I don't act on those impulses (sometimes with difficulty) and I occasionally engage in Good behavior; solid neutral on that axis. Though I -could- see myself sliding toward good in the OP's hypothetical if circumstances conspire but that's not terribly likely.

I also have an appreciation for the weight of tradition (though I'm not comfortable with -blind- adherence to it) and feel quite strongly about the importance of the rule of law. Personal freedom is definitely a positive thing (though not a good one by RAW) and I don't much care for the idea of it being infringed without good reason but I'm not about to shirk tradition or duty just because I don't like what's expected unless it pushes quite strongly against my moral outlook. That certainly reads as lawful by my understanding of the rules.

This is all excellent. It highlights one of the most difficult things about self-examination: whether or not you actually have a problem with the things about yourself that might be considered worth changing.

Is it still bad if I enjoy it? As long as I am not hurting other people with it and no one is affected, who cares? What if only that one person over there disagrees? If he isn't hurt in any way, does that make it okay? How many people have to disagree with a thing before it becomes bad.

It's a good discussion to have. Knowing the rules isn't always enough. Because you also have to know how, if, and in what ways they might be applied to you.

For instance, in D&D, the act of animating the dead is always evil. There are a lot of people that disagree with this, on various ethical stances of even more varying strength. The point that nearly all of those arguments miss is that the reason it is an evil act is because it involves the desecration of a corpse. It's an ethical violation of the bodily autonomy of another living being. In that sense, your reasons for animating the corpse are irrelevant.


95% sure he meant good as in successful, not good as in morally upstanding. It's basic statecraft as layed out by Mahchiavelli; if you want to hold a principality after you take it, change little for the peasantry lest they rise in revolt. Though, Red put his own little orwellian spin on it with his police being draconian in their enforcement of his law.

He displays the knowledge of a statesman-strategist with some frequency. :smallamused:

Ah, but that calls in to question your definition of success. Do you measure it by the wealth generated by the nation, or by if the needs of it's citizens are met? How much of the populace needs to be content for a system to be successful? There will always be those people that value their personal freedoms over the needs of the state. Will the system be able to provide for their needs as well?

The short is answer, obviously, is no. But it's a "no" because the needs of the people are never served. Only the needs of the state are. There only time the needs of the people will be met is when those needs coincide with those of the state.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is all excellent. It highlights one of the most difficult things about self-examination: whether or not you actually have a problem with the things about yourself that might be considered worth changing.

Doesn't matter in the context of the rules.


Is it still bad if I enjoy it? As long as I am not hurting other people with it and no one is affected, who cares? What if only that one person over there disagrees? If he isn't hurt in any way, does that make it okay? How many people have to disagree with a thing before it becomes bad.

Doesn't matter. D&D verse alignment is objective. Whether I or anyone else thinks a thing is bad or not doesn't figure into whether it's evil or not. Same goes for the other three. The outlines given are fairly clear. Morally, I think I'm a good person as much as the next guy. By the alignment rules, I'm quite firmly neutral on the "moral" axis.


It's a good discussion to have. Knowing the rules isn't always enough. Because you also have to know how, if, and in what ways they might be applied to you.

Except it is. The rules leave -some- room for subjectivity in discussing specific instances of behaviour but virtually none for determining a character's alignment once behavioral -patterns- have been observed. On either axis, either your behavior leans you one way, the other, or is balanced enough or lacks enough aligned instances to leave you neutral. Simple as that.


For instance, in D&D, the act of animating the dead is always evil. There are a lot of people that disagree with this, on various ethical stances of even more varying strength. The point that nearly all of those arguments miss is that the reason it is an evil act is because it involves the desecration of a corpse. It's an ethical violation of the bodily autonomy of another living being. In that sense, your reasons for animating the corpse are irrelevant.

Acutally, it has more to do with the inherent harm undead do to the prime material simply by existing. Not that it matters. Whatever the line of reasoning used to justify it, the rule remains the same. It is an immutable -fact- that animating undead is an evil act.


Ah, but that calls in to question your definition of success. Do you measure it by the wealth generated by the nation, or by if the needs of it's citizens are met? How much of the populace needs to be content for a system to be successful? There will always be those people that value their personal freedoms over the needs of the state. Will the system be able to provide for their needs as well?

The short is answer, obviously, is no. But it's a "no" because the needs of the people are never served. Only the needs of the state are. There only time the needs of the people will be met is when those needs coincide with those of the state.

Again, 95% certain that success here is measured entirely by the ruler's ability to hold and exercise power as he wishes. If you're overthrown or usurped, you don't need to worry about how to run things anymore.

[FocusWolf413]

OR abyssal. Praying to Pelor that it's not Abyssal.

For you, it's Dark Speech.



Very little after that. I expect they'd go blind.

It wouldn't take that. Your natural... uh... radiance would take care of that.


Indeed! :P

Didn't expect anyone to know that.

Totally fine! Not a very useful PhD, I'm afraid. Went the pure math route, dissertation's on Quasi-Metric Geometry.

But anyway, the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus wasn't discovered/invented until Isaac Newton's and Gottfried Leibniz's time, late 1600's. Then all the Calculus nonsense, infinitesimals and limits and whatnot, weren't made rigorous until Karl Weierstrass, late 1800's. That kind of stuff a math major would learn in undergrad. I imagine D&D math would be before Calculus, so even a person with just a BS in math would bring a lot to the table.

You'd probably land a nice cushy job as a scholar.

[Red Fel]

Find an inn.
Start cooking for them.
Marry bar wench.
Get disease.
Die painfully.

More people should have your vision and aspirations.


Indeed. Very straightforward. Very moving.

The wish fulfillment fantasy of a true tyrant. :smallbiggrin:

Aww, and it's not even my birthday!


I'm tickled by your use of the phrase "good totalitarian".
A system of government in which the populace is beholden to the state through a codified and exacting set of laws, and which inculcates obedience in the populace by feeding them a steady diet of mainstream propaganda mostly centered on national pride and utter faith in those in power. It's a system whose success depends entirely on rigidly maintaining the rule of law at all costs. By it's very definition, it cannot be good, in exactly the same way the plane of Mechanus cannot ever be good, at the risk of annihilating itself.

In effect, life would change for everyone, since the rule of law must be absolute for the system to function. The laws do not serve the needs of the people, they serve the needs of the system. The only possible guarantee you could ever make anyone in such a system is that they will serve the needs of the system, and that they will climb exactly as high as the current, or anticipated, needs of the system dictate.

... And that bothers me why, exactly?


Well, yeah. It's RedFel. He's kinda famous for that around here.

You guys! Did you plan this?

*gasp* Did you get me a present? Is there a dead mime behind that curtain?


95% sure he meant good as in successful, not good as in morally upstanding. It's basic statecraft as layed out by Mahchiavelli; if you want to hold a principality after you take it, change little for the peasantry lest they rise in revolt. Though, Red put his own little orwellian spin on it with his police being draconian in their enforcement of his law.

He displays the knowledge of a statesman-strategist with some frequency. :smallamused:

Yeah, I really didn't mean capital-G Good, as in "righteous, selfless, or of decent character," but rather lowercase-g good, as in "has a freaking clue what he's doing."

I mean, me, as a Good tyrant? That's just...

Okay, stop, I'm laughing so hard I might pee.


It wouldn't take that. Your natural... uh... radiance would take care of that.

... You callin' me ugly?

[Kelb_Panthera]

You guys! Did you plan this?

*gasp* Did you get me a present? Is there a dead mime behind that curtain?

Better; a half-dead mime and a dull knife. :smallamused: Enjoy!

I hope I didn't just kill a reference.

[Erit]

You know it. Only the highest quality plasma displays.

I appreciate the cleverness behind this pun, Fel One. If'n your imperial regalia ever needs repairing I'm willing to talk discounts.

With regards to what alignment I'd ping as, Lawful for certain. I'm not sure between Neutral and Evil, since that one has a habit of shifting with my mood.

EDIT: Well crap, I forgot about the sadism/masochism thing. In which case I ping Lawful Evil courtesy of things what go on behind closed doors. Stupid WoTC demonizing what is possibly the most common fetish group in the first world.

[WhatThePhysics]

I've been thinking more about this.

Philosophy: In a nutshell, "divine mutual prosperity" asserts that divine power is universal to all sapients, can be amassed/transferred, is capable of causing metaphysical effects, and that mutual prosperity is generally the most effective strategy towards universal satisfaction. Borrowing analogies from Earth's lore to simplify/conceptualize it for those with different worldviews may help.

Ability Scores: Realistically, I'd be nonelite with Str 8, Dex 9, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 11. It'd likely get me killed at early levels, barring lucky circumstances and rolls.

Domains: Artifice and Creation, for the creation spell level boost and utility spell lists.

The average 1st level trained worker can get 9.75 GP/week with an average Profession roll = [10.5 + 4 (Ranks) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 2 (Assistant/Masterwork Tools)] / 2. Factor in 5.6 GP for week-round common quality bed and breakfast, plus 0.95 GP for a 10% tax rate, and you're left with 2.95 GP/week in profits. This nets an average of 153.4 GP/year, which is enough for a commoner to live comfortably.

In perspective, a continuous/use-activated wondrous item with no space limitation form that stores a 0th level spell usually costs 1,000 GP to craft, which a dedicated and trained community of 150 could subsidize in 16 days. It'd also take them around 6 years to fund a 6th level spell item, so large cities could more easily crank out autoutopias and space/planar colonies. Still, accelerating returns could shorten the time until a hamlet becomes self-sufficient.

Time Until 1 Of Each Crafted: 28 weeks.
Time Until 1 For Each Member Crafted: 7 years.
Time Until Each Per Member Crafted: 78 years.

Create Water: 28,800 gallons produced/day.
Cure/Inflict Minor Wounds: 14,400 hit points/day.
Detect Magic: 814 million feet^3 scanned/day.
Detect Poison: 1.8 million feet^3 scanned/day.
Guidance/Resistance: 14,400 bonuses provided/day.
Light: 482 million feet^3 illuminated/day.
Purify Food And Drink: 14,400 feet^3 purified/day.
Mending: 14,400 breaks/tears mended/day.
Read Magic: 14,400 inscriptions deciphered/day.
Virtue: 14,400 temporary hit points/day.

The community has recycled hydropower, on demand illumination, persistent food surpluses, the ability to identify/dispose of toxic substances, and the means to provide scroll based services. They accommodate living and undead alike, have awareness of local magic/poisons, are augmented relative to outsiders, and own tons of maintained masterwork tools. Visible lasers are their internet's backbone, and they use modern cryptography to deter infiltrators.

[Inevitability]

Yeah, if I recall masochism is one of those stupid things that makes you automatically Evil. There's a couple others in there too.

Not quite. It says masochism is 'a horrible trait common to the evil and the perverse', but it's not actually called out somewhere as being absolutely evil 100% of the time. 'Horrible' is relative, even in a strictly defined alignment system, and the fact that evil people do something a lot doesn't necessarily mean

I am fairly sure they intended it to be evil, though. Masochism (the spell) implies that much.

[Hecuba]

For instance, suppose you were to walk into a temple and throw yourself upon the mercy of the clerics and they decide to cast any of the series of Detect Alignment spells on you.

What do you expect them to see?

LN, maybe LG. The Good acts I do are primaly driven by the impetus of friends rather than any personal drive for justice or generosity, but in the deontologicaly governed D&D world that could still be enough.

Left to my own devices I have no particular interest in nor aversion to, for example, the end of all things. My only concerns would be:
1) Whether the process would be messy (a minus)
2) Will it be interesting in by to watch (a plus)

[Solaris]

Compared to your average D&D commoner, educated and nerdy forumites like ourselves have much higher Int and Wis scores, and likely Cha too, and be able to rise through the ranks quickly.

Intelligence I'll give ya.
The other two, on the other hand, vary significantly.


Btw, it would be fun if 50 of us were dropped on the Prime Material Plane with a level in a PC class. I'd give us about 5 years, tops, before we took over half the multiverse.

I've seen how a lot of conversations here go.
You're being... optimistic.


And after that? We figure out how to get Netflix across the planar divide. And HBO.

I need my Game of Thrones fix.

Point of order: You wouldn't need to watch a show to get a Game of Thrones fix in a D&D setting.


As for what I think would happen were I to show up? I'd break the setting. I mean, between my military training, my survival training, my (admittedly out of practice) martial arts training, my (even more out of practice) heavy armor fencing, my knowledge of chemistry, that course on blacksmithing I took a while back, my studies of the technology involved with the Industrial Revolution, my studies of medicine... Assuming I manage to avoid something nasty, I'd have the makings of something real interesting. Most of those would just keep me alive, but the science? The medicine? The medicine? That's the kind of thing that can change the world.

Thus, my Step One would be to try hooking up with a cleric and a wizard. Convince them that having a live fighter is a symbol of prestige while I try and figure out which of their magic works best for me (I figure wizardry, but it's best to hedge the bets) and figure out how translate real-world science and technology into D&D.

[Madara]

I've seen how a lot of conversations here go.
You're being... optimistic.


I was thinking about this thread (specifically 50 forumgoers getting dropped) and I thought, "What if the banned ones rose from the earth to chase us down?"

Then I just concluded they'd all study unoptimized things like being monks or fighters.

We'd probably end up with a functional group of 15, maybe another of 5, and 10 rando wanderers who ditch/die.

[FocusWolf413]

... You callin' me ugly?

It's just that the presence of an Elder God tends to negatively affect physics and biology.

I'm sure you're popular with the Elder Goddesses.

[Virdish]

I really do think that a large group of us dropped into the world of D&D would be a force to be reckoned with. Survival is always easier as a group. Also we would bring considerable knowledge of the setting to the playing field. Sure some of us might try to game the system in ways that could hurt us but you would be surprised what effect social cues have on us. We could rather easily self govern. Of course there would be those that for one reason or another would be unsuited for the group but banishment would be a plausible option for most of them.

Assumptions for the following scenario:
English=Common
Diverse spread of people including optimizers, people with useful real-world skills(blacksmithing, survival skills, social skills, etc)
One or two people with advanced knowledge in math, science, medicine
We are not susceptible to some disease that knocks us out immediately

When we first arrived, after the shock wore off, we would need to focus on immediate survival. As a large group our best bet would be to follow what the survival experts said and focus on fire and shelter. Water should be a close second but in most environments it can wait until shelter and fire are made though with a large group it wouldn't have to. Once all that is taken care of we would need to figure out food. This would perhaps be the most difficult aspect as there are creatures roaming around the world that we really do not want to tangle with. Again the survival experts would come in handy here, especially anyone with primitive weapon making skills and trapping skills.

Assuming we can get the basics set up at some point we will need to figure out how leveling actually works in world. For this the hunters would be our best source of information as well as the optimizers. The hunters would accrue experience the normal way while I am sure that the optimizers could teach us all tricks to gain xp more efficiently. Assuming we are all still alive (relatively speaking, I do expect a couple deaths before this stage) we would also need to start scouting out the area around us for a village or town. We are going to likely be needing trainers for some of the more magical classes, though I have a sneaking suspicion that some of us may have already found a divine path to power at this point. There are a few gods of knowledge that I can think of who would likely be glad to act as our patron and raise up clerics among our midst.

After we have established ourselves we can start looking into using our knowledge of the system as well as technology and other real world stuff in order to better our lives. Traps of create water, food, and cure light wounds along with cure disease and other such things. I mean assuming we are able to get off the ground (something that a large group makes statistically more likely) we shouldn't have much issue thriving in our new world.

[Vizzerdrix]

especially anyone with primitive weapon making skills and trapping skills.

Huzzah, Id be usefull! I also make amazing shelters too.

We would need to find clay. Handy stuff, clay. Can do all sorts of things with it.

Hmm... Would we level up up individually, or is someone going to insist that it is managed by a councel of optomizers?

[Madara]

Huzzah, Id be usefull! I also make amazing shelters too.

We would need to find clay. Handy stuff, clay. Can do all sorts of things with it.

Hmm... Would we level up up individually, or is someone going to insist that it is managed by a councel of optomizers?

Well, we'd want a group of higher level individuals, and one or two people who would be like level 1 spellcasting crafters, utilizing the XP river and the party of people mowing down monsters to get a bunch of cheap low cost magic items.

[Virdish]

Huzzah, Id be usefull! I also make amazing shelters too.

We would need to find clay. Handy stuff, clay. Can do all sorts of things with it.

Hmm... Would we level up up individually, or is someone going to insist that it is managed by a councel of optomizers?

That is an interesting question and it doesn't have a really simple answer. My more chaotic side says that infringing on personal liberty in levelling would be unwanted but then there is group survival and cohesion to think about. I think the best answer would be to have a group of optimizers to council people in levelling up but not have their advice be binding.

[Doctor Awkward]

Not that I want this thread to get any more meta than it already is, but something occured to me in regards to the original question:


You, as you are right now, with your equivalent mental stats, physical stats, class levels (probably expert 2 or 3), etc., are transported into the D&D universe. Assume you have complete knowledge of the rules, physics, and universe as written. What do you do?

If we are to assume this universe functions as per the rules as written in D&D books, does it not follow it is overseen by a single, all-powerful entity who watches every second of our lives and is capable of arbitrarily altering out destiny on a whim through the introduction of horrible nightmare creatures and opponents that haunt our every step?


...No I don't mean Red Fel. I'm talking about a DM.

[Strigon]

Not that I want this thread to get any more meta than it already is, but something occured to me in regards to the original question:



If we are to assume this universe functions as per the rules as written in D&D books, does it not follow it is overseen by a single, all-powerful entity who watches every second of our lives and is capable of arbitrarily altering out destiny on a whim through the introduction of horrible nightmare creatures and opponents that haunt our every step?


...No I don't mean Red Fel. I'm talking about a DM.

I'd argue no.
It specifies the D&D universe, not a D&D universe. The D&D universe is what is printed, which I would argue does not come with a DM. Every D&D game has a DM, of course, but those games are self-contained; none of them could be considered the one true D&D universe.

For this reason, I choose to believe that the question, as written, does not imply the existence of a DM.

[WhatThePhysics]

Acid Splash (Sor/Wiz): 28,800 damage to stationaries/day.
Arcane Mark (Sor/Wiz): 2 billion combinations in base-36.
Dancing Lights (Brd/Sor/Wiz): Personal network replacement to Light.
Daze (Brd/Sor/Wiz): 14,400 dazings/day.
Disrupt Undead (Sor/Wiz): 28,800 damage to stationaries/day.
Flare (Brd/Drd/Sor/Wiz): 14,400 dazzlings/day.
Ghost Sound (Brd/Sor/Wiz): 14,400 patterns/day.
Know Direction (Brd/Drd): Mostly fool proof navigation tool.
Lullaby (Brd): Great for insomnia patients.
Mage Hand (Brd/Sor/Wiz): 16.9 watts at 50% efficiency.
Message (Brd/Sor/Wiz): 14,400 10-minute conversations/day.
Open/Close (Brd/Sor/Wiz): 14,400 openings/day.
Prestidigitation (Brd/Sor/Wiz): Magical swiss army knife.
Ray of Frost (Sor/Wiz): 28,800 damage to stationaries/day.
Summon Instrument (Brd): Beats owning a fragile lute.
Touch of Fatigue (Sor/Wiz): 14,400 fatiguings/day.

Arcane casters provide local internet with Dancing Lights signals, radio with Ghost Sound tin can phones, and telegrams with Message hubs. Mage Hand powers as much as Create Water would with a 9.4 foot height at 50% efficiency, making it a tidier auxiliary. Open/Close is great for booby trapped chests and waste management, and Daze is a healthier alternative to inebriation. Prestidigiation is...Wish-lite, basically.

Bards bring Lullaby and Summon Instrument to the community, lending psychological outlets and defensive applications.

Sorcerers and wizards add new industries with a Acid Splash -> Create Water -> Purify Food and Drink cycle, which can cut 128 5' cubes out of unworked stone daily. They also support authentication and record keeping with Arcane Mark. Depending on interpretation, Disrupt Undead is ranged healing for the living, and would enhance paramedic responses. Ray of Frost gives convective refrigeration and ice superconductors. Touch of Fatigue would be useful for nonlethal law enforcement.

Bards and druids both have Know Direction, increasing the odds of proper navigation.

Bards, druids, sorcerers, and wizards all add Flare as a cheap defensive trick. If you wear sunglasses, it's also an impromptu light signal.

[Red Fel]

It's just that the presence of an Elder God tends to negatively affect physics and biology.

I'm sure you're popular with the Elder Goddesses.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder709/500x/67785709.jpg


For this reason, I choose to believe that the question, as written, does not imply the existence of a DM.

http://saturdaymorninghijinks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/dungeon-master-300x225.jpg

Really, now?

[Psyren]

Not that I want this thread to get any more meta than it already is, but something occured to me in regards to the original question:



If we are to assume this universe functions as per the rules as written in D&D books, does it not follow it is overseen by a single, all-powerful entity who watches every second of our lives and is capable of arbitrarily altering out destiny on a whim through the introduction of horrible nightmare creatures and opponents that haunt our every step?


...No I don't mean Red Fel. I'm talking about a DM.


I'd argue no.
It specifies the D&D universe, not a D&D universe. The D&D universe is what is printed, which I would argue does not come with a DM. Every D&D game has a DM, of course, but those games are self-contained; none of them could be considered the one true D&D universe.

For this reason, I choose to believe that the question, as written, does not imply the existence of a DM.

Most D&D universes do, however, have gods. Lacking a DM, you simply end up with their overdeity lacking oversight, or failing that, their own internecine politics determining the outcome of any conflicts.

[Ashtagon]

I'd argue no.
It specifies the D&D universe, not a D&D universe. The D&D universe is what is printed, which I would argue does not come with a DM. Every D&D game has a DM, of course, but those games are self-contained; none of them could be considered the one true D&D universe.

For this reason, I choose to believe that the question, as written, does not imply the existence of a DM.

I'd argue yes. The RAW demand the existence of one DM and one or more players to work.

[FocusWolf413]

If we are to assume this universe functions as per the rules as written in D&D books, does it not follow it is overseen by a single, all-powerful entity who watches every second of our lives and is capable of arbitrarily altering out destiny on a whim through the introduction of horrible nightmare creatures and opponents that haunt our every step?


...No I don't mean Red Fel. I'm talking about a DM.

There's no DM, but there IS a Pun Pun. He knows he's in a game, and he knows you know. Basically, it's the same thing.

Because you asked, however, you get a really capricious, nitpicky, immature, rules lawyery DM who inserts his perfect, beautiful, edgy, scantily clad, and overpowered Mary Sue Waifu DMPC.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Most D&D universes do, however, have gods. Lacking a DM, you simply end up with their overdeity lacking oversight, or failing that, their own internecine politics determining the outcome of any conflicts.

I'd argue that "influencing" would be more appropriate for the underlined. The ability of deities to determine anything is pretty limited.

[Mordaedil]

Having met some of the more intelligent people on Earth, I, uh, think people on this forum might be overselling their own intelligence scores quite a bit.

Every sentient creature certainly believes himself extremely intelligent until faced with a problem they cannot solve.

So, there's the question, for determining intelligence, how many skills have you mastered in real life? How many sciences and PH.D's do you have?

I realize it isn't the easiest one to determine, but if you want to be honest with yourself, you might fall a tad bit short of what you'd expect. Knowing D&D rules in and out would at best constitute a rank in Knowledge (Games). Knowing its history would mean you'd pass a DC 15 check. Knowing all games ever made means passing a DC 30 check.

How good is your trivia knowledge?

[Virdish]

There's no DM, but there IS a Pun Pun. He knows he's in a game, and he knows you know. Basically, it's the same thing.

Because you asked, however, you get a really capricious, nitpicky, immature, rules lawyery DM who inserts his perfect, beautiful, edgy, scantily clad, and overpowered Mary Sue Waifu DMPC.

Ok why do we have to go messing up our pristine D&D universe with a DMPC It makes everything harder. Doubtless they are going to want our group to go save some princess or something. Or defeat some dragon or save a kingdom. Which means that some of our group might not come back. Rule 1 is we don't take risks with our people and DM's like us to take risks.

[WhatThePhysics]

Having met some of the more intelligent people on Earth, I, uh, think people on this forum might be overselling their own intelligence scores quite a bit.

Every sentient creature certainly believes himself extremely intelligent until faced with a problem they cannot solve.

So, there's the question, for determining intelligence, how many skills have you mastered in real life? How many sciences and PH.D's do you have?

I realize it isn't the easiest one to determine, but if you want to be honest with yourself, you might fall a tad bit short of what you'd expect. Knowing D&D rules in and out would at best constitute a rank in Knowledge (Games). Knowing its history would mean you'd pass a DC 15 check. Knowing all games ever made means passing a DC 30 check.

How good is your trivia knowledge?


You, as you are right now, with your equivalent mental stats, physical stats, class levels (probably expert 2 or 3), etc., are transported into the D&D universe. Assume you have complete knowledge of the rules, physics, and universe as written. What do you do?

In this scenario, we're practically omniscient.

Barring that, many common modern technologies are revolutionary to pre-industrial societies. If they can survive, and the setting isn't already post-industrialized, the average user could at least cause multiple advancements with off-hand knowledge.

[Zanos]

Having met some of the more intelligent people on Earth, I, uh, think people on this forum might be overselling their own intelligence scores quite a bit.

Every sentient creature certainly believes himself extremely intelligent until faced with a problem they cannot solve.

So, there's the question, for determining intelligence, how many skills have you mastered in real life? How many sciences and PH.D's do you have?

I realize it isn't the easiest one to determine, but if you want to be honest with yourself, you might fall a tad bit short of what you'd expect. Knowing D&D rules in and out would at best constitute a rank in Knowledge (Games). Knowing its history would mean you'd pass a DC 15 check. Knowing all games ever made means passing a DC 30 check.

How good is your trivia knowledge?
I just used a 3d6 bell curve to approximate mine. If 3d6 is used generally to generate stats, then 18 is top 0.46%, 17 is 1.38%, 16 is 2.77%, etc. Measuring real world intelligence is non-trivial, but you only have to be in the top 4.61% to have an intelligence score of 16 or higher.

[Mordaedil]

And what if you're in the 4.61% that has 5 or less intelligence?

[Zanos]

And what if you're in the 4.61% that has 5 or less intelligence?
I doubt someone with a borderline mental disability spends much time playing D&D and arguing about it on internet forums, honestly. According to the bell curve, that's an IQ of 75 or under.

[Mordaedil]

I think you'd find a fair number of people arguing on Internet forums suffer from asperger's syndrome actually, albeit that doesn't quite equate them to being low on IQ.

That said, IQ test results are incredibly invalid argument to bring forth on a matter of Intelligence in terms of equal to what it represents in D&D, which is more of a "talented intelligence" rather than a "specialist intelligence" people seem to associate it with.

You can be a crack-ace at math problems, but if you also aren't an artist, a historian, a meditationist and a book wright, odds are you are actually on the low-scale in D&D terms of intelligence.

Or, and this is a simple one. How many languages do you know?

[Zanos]

I think you'd find a fair number of people arguing on Internet forums suffer from asperger's syndrome actually, albeit that doesn't quite equate them to being low on IQ.

Anecdotal, but everyone I know with asperger's is fairly intelligent, they just have issues with social cues. That'd be a wis/cha issue, if anything.



That said, IQ test results are incredibly invalid argument to bring forth on a matter of Intelligence in terms of equal to what it represents in D&D, which is more of a "talented intelligence" rather than a "specialist intelligence" people seem to associate it with.

IQ is strictly a bell curve distribution over a range. If there's anything it's good for, comparing percentiles and averages is it.



You can be a crack-ace at math problems, but if you also aren't an artist, a historian, a meditationist and a book wright, odds are you are actually on the low-scale in D&D terms of intelligence.

So basically anyone that isn't a renaissance man? By that metric, I don't think even some of the smartest historical figures would have any sort of intelligence bonus.



Or, and this is a simple one. How many languages do you know?
I'd say I "know" one, and am conversational in two others. But I don't think that's a particularly good metric either, considering Einstein spoke only three languages, while the Guinness record holder speaks 58. Somehow I doubt he is also "an artist, a historian, a meditationist and a book wright", so I don't think he could afford that many ranks in speak language.

[Mordaedil]

Well, my example there was one with a very high modifier to intelligence, so not very representative. But right, someone with a strength of Hercules would have an 18 strength, so I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to say that high intelligence is incredibly difficult to attain.

Also for languages, again, it's a matter of difference between what D&D considers intelligence against what we measure as intelligence.

Though since you are conversational in at least two languages, I think that puts you in the odds of being on the higher bar. My point is that it's super easy to overestimate oneself if one posts on a forum like this and I don't think many posters have had the privilige of having met someone considered really brilliant.

But I can't speak for everyone here!

[Strigon]

Well, my example there was one with a very high modifier to intelligence, so not very representative. But right, someone with a strength of Hercules would have an 18 strength, so I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to say that high intelligence is incredibly difficult to attain.


I'm pretty sure Hercules was above 18 Strength. 18 is the top natural ability, and wasn't his strength expressly supernatural?

[Mordaedil]

Depends at what period of his life.

[Eldest]

Depends at what period of his life.

It was always expressly supernatural. Strangled snakes in his crib and all. Now, given the top human possible score in a mental attribute is, oh, 21. Why not just roll with the idea that having people self-evaluate is going to have a bias towards the higher numbers, but that you assigning people numbers is going to be even more arbitrary and inaccurate. Further, in D&D rules, you get more languages at a higher intelligence. We don't live in d&d. So we don't get free languages from being smart.

[danzibr]

So basically anyone that isn't a renaissance man? By that metric, I don't think even some of the smartest historical figures would have any sort of intelligence bonus.
Indeed, indeed. With the skill cap in D&D, having a high Int results in maxing out several skills. I don't think that translates well to real life.

[Strigon]

Of course, in real life, most people waste skill points on useless fluff, which rarely happens in games.

In games, everyone has a few niche roles that they max out, whereas in life most people certainly have a main skill or two, but then they have skills in Knowledge: Movie Trivia, or Craft: Pottery, or some other hobby.

[Red Fel]

Of course, in real life, most people waste skill points on useless fluff, which rarely happens in games.

In games, everyone has a few niche roles that they max out, whereas in life most people certainly have a main skill or two, but then they have skills in Knowledge: Movie Trivia, or Craft: Pottery, or some other hobby.

More importantly, the OP presumes that everyone in this hypothetical has max ranks in Knowledge: How D&D Works. That means things like:
Saving a life by drowning someone
Breaking the economy with Wall of Salt
Infinite wish chaining
Infinite action economy
About a dozen ways to become immortal
How to kill the Tarrasque
And much, much more!
Even if you're overestimating your ability scores, the capacity to perform any of these feats basically sets you up for life.

[Eladrinblade]

You, as you are right now, with your equivalent mental stats, physical stats, class levels (probably expert 2 or 3), etc., are transported into the D&D universe. Assume you have complete knowledge of the rules, physics, and universe as written. What do you do?

Go find a traveling elf with a pc class and become his/her apprentice, learning the language and some bow/sword skills. Then, once acceptable, go find an elf village/city to live in and slowly learn useful skills (I mean more like tracking or magic), live the elven life (as much as possible; first magic item I would grab would be a hat of disguise, assuming I ever could).

I sincerely believe I could hack it as a 2nd rate adventurer, but I wouldn't, except as the community required or if I were ever highly motivated to for a length of time.

Life in an elven society has always seemed pretty ideal to me. It takes a lot of personal responsibility, and as a human I'd never be fully accepted, but hey I'm used to that.

After some length of time, though, I think my knowledge of just what you can do with wizardry would get to me and I'd hit the books, hard. I'm no genius, but I've got enough Int for the lower levels spells.

Really, it's a question of whether I want to live one fairly ideal life, or really go for the gold (knowing I'm very likely to fail).

[Thealtruistorc]

I, too, would be unable to survive long without much medical care. Fortunately, there are tricks around this.
Fortunately, that's my only problem; if I can make Profession checks, I'm solid. Since any profession makes the same amount of money in this world, theoretically even "Profession: Software Engineer" should make money.

You're forgetting the obvious answer to this: passing high school mathematics has given you a more comprehensive understanding of the universe than almost anyone in a medieval setting. Show off whatever you remember from physics and algebra and you will be launched to the position of royal accountant or chief siege engineer pretty darn quickly. The reason those things were drilled into most of us is because they do have plenty of universal applications, so a good base in math is a resource that every halfway-intelligent lord will want in their court (for an example of this, look at Archimedes).

[FocusWolf413]

Ok why do we have to go messing up our pristine D&D universe with a DMPC It makes everything harder. Doubtless they are going to want our group to go save some princess or something. Or defeat some dragon or save a kingdom. Which means that some of our group might not come back. Rule 1 is we don't take risks with our people and DM's like us to take risks.

We? Why is it we? Only one person has a game with a DMPC.


I just used a 3d6 bell curve to approximate mine. If 3d6 is used generally to generate stats, then 18 is top 0.46%, 17 is 1.38%, 16 is 2.77%, etc. Measuring real world intelligence is non-trivial, but you only have to be in the top 4.61% to have an intelligence score of 16 or higher.

The real life bell curve is waaaay different. I'd be surprised if anyone in this forum (except Red Fel) had over a 14 in anything.


Go find a traveling elf with a pc class and become his/her apprentice, learning the language and some bow/sword skills. Then, once acceptable, go find an elf village/city to live in and slowly learn useful skills (I mean more like tracking or magic), live the elven life (as much as possible; first magic item I would grab would be a hat of disguise, assuming I ever could).

I sincerely believe I could hack it as a 2nd rate adventurer, but I wouldn't, except as the community required or if I were ever highly motivated to for a length of time.

Life in an elven society has always seemed pretty ideal to me. It takes a lot of personal responsibility, and as a human I'd never be fully accepted, but hey I'm used to that.

After some length of time, though, I think my knowledge of just what you can do with wizardry would get to me and I'd hit the books, hard. I'm no genius, but I've got enough Int for the lower levels spells.

Really, it's a question of whether I want to live one fairly ideal life, or really go for the gold (knowing I'm very likely to fail).


Train with the elves? Alright. Assuming you're like 20 now, by the time you finish your basic training, you're like 60. Also, they wouldn't want to train you.

[Strigon]

More importantly, the OP presumes that everyone in this hypothetical has max ranks in Knowledge: How D&D Works. That means things like:
Saving a life by drowning someone
Breaking the economy with Wall of Salt
Infinite wish chaining
Infinite action economy
About a dozen ways to become immortal
How to kill the Tarrasque
And much, much more!
Even if you're overestimating your ability scores, the capacity to perform any of these feats basically sets you up for life.

Point well made, although I'm not sure how knowing how to kill Big T sets you up for life.


You're forgetting the obvious answer to this: passing high school mathematics has given you a more comprehensive understanding of the universe than almost anyone in a medieval setting. Show off whatever you remember from physics and algebra and you will be launched to the position of royal accountant or chief siege engineer pretty darn quickly. The reason those things were drilled into most of us is because they do have plenty of universal applications, so a good base in math is a resource that every halfway-intelligent lord will want in their court (for an example of this, look at Archimedes).

I'm not 100% convinced. Sure, you'd be leagues ahead of commoners, but as I understand it there were people born and bred for those jobs. And they were taught hard. Much harder than you could get away with now. Remember, most of the things we were taught, they figured out for themselves. Throw magic into the mix and I don't think our Jack-of-all-trades high school education will be competitive.



The real life bell curve is waaaay different. I'd be surprised if anyone in this forum (except Red Fel) had over a 14 in anything.


Oh, come now; a 14 in Str will only let you carry 175 pounds. Impressive, but hardly astounding.

[Zanos]

Point well made, although I'm not sure how knowing how to kill Big T sets you up for life..
"Help, the Tarrasque is destroying our city! Who can save us?"

"Here, hold my ale."

[Inevitability]

"Help, the Tarrasque is destroying our city! Who can save us?"

"Here, hold my ale."

I feel like I should mention a certain build of mine, given that it's basically what we're talking about here.

[Vizzerdrix]

Should we link to the commoner handbook? I feel like its appropriate. Or at least some youtube videos on not dieing in the wild.

[Red Fel]

Point well made, although I'm not sure how knowing how to kill Big T sets you up for life.

Really? Way I figure, it's like winning a major sporting competition - you do this one big thing, get an award and a parade, and thereafter live the life of Riley. You get invited to all the celebrity parties, endorsement deals for sneakers and soda pop, hang out with world leaders.

You get to be famous for being famous after that.


I'm not 100% convinced. Sure, you'd be leagues ahead of commoners, but as I understand it there were people born and bred for those jobs. And they were taught hard. Much harder than you could get away with now. Remember, most of the things we were taught, they figured out for themselves. Throw magic into the mix and I don't think our Jack-of-all-trades high school education will be competitive.

A few things. First, most NPCs aren't necessarily spellcasters. So let's not automatically "[t]hrow magic into the mix" here. Second, consider the fact that literacy is not automatic. There are certain groups or classes that don't get it. If literacy isn't automatic, then certainly basic mathematics won't be automatic. Nor advanced maths. Having the equivalent of a first-world high school education means at least a passing understanding of math and science. That means you've already got a couple of ranks in Heal, for instance, as well as a smattering of Knowledge skills.

But let's look at some of the things an in-world so-called expert can do. With Knowledge (engineering), you can identify that a column is load-bearing, under strain, or damaged. Or, if you watched enough HGTV, you can probably eyeball that sucker. Knowledge (religion) will tell you that you've entered the temple of an evil god. Or you can just notice that there's a blood-stained altar and all of the walls are engraved with grinning skulls. Knowledge (dungeoneering) can tell you not to eat anything you find in a dungeon, nor touch the walls, nor step on odd-looking tiles. Or you can just use your experience watching Indiana Jones and know the exact same thing. ("Yeah, that looks like a floor tile puzzle. Better stop here, pretty sure it's booby-trapped.")

Point is, a lot of things that should be obvious to us require in-world skills. We would be like prophets to these people, even before you get to the baseline education thing.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Race: Whisper gnome (I've been told I am a really scary short person that's really quite and sneaky)
Class: Expert2 (Unearthed arcana)
ability stats:
str|6 (yea im probably the weakest link
dex| 20 ("can't touch this")
con| 10 (cough cough)
int| 12 (average I would say)
wis| 12 (again average)
cha| 14 (well ive been told...)
Feats:
Trait: quick (+10 speed, -1 hp)
Trait: Skinny (+1 Escape artist, -2 str checks)
flaw(vulnerable): Run (players handbook)
flaw(vulnerable): alertness (players handbook)
lvl 1: Combat reflexes
Expert1: Sneak attack
Expert2: Evasion


Knowing me, I'm going to find a Thieves guild with a K local 1d20+6, I'm going to join 1d20+7. Then I'm going to have a blast.

[Vizzerdrix]

I think I would try to go Human Paragon into Chameleon, just to make sure I have the wis to play with shapesand. I do love shapesand <3 :smallredface: <3

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oh, come now; a 14 in Str will only let you carry 175 pounds. Impressive, but hardly astounding.

14 is carrying 175 pounds in a backpack and belt-pouches and such comfortably. You can actually lift and move up to 350 pounds over short distances and push/drag 875 if you must. That's nothing to sneeze at.

[Eladrinblade]

14 is carrying 175 pounds in a backpack and belt-pouches and such comfortably. You can actually lift and move up to 350 pounds over short distances and push/drag 875 if you must. That's nothing to sneeze at.

It's also not really rare at all, in that pretty much any town gym (in america anyway) will have people that strong and stronger. My brother for instance, has a strength score of 15. He won state in powerlifting in highschool, and he knows tons of guys stronger than him (some are waaaaaay stronger).

If strength scores like that are as common as they are, I can only assume the other scores are too.

[Strigon]

A few things. First, most NPCs aren't necessarily spellcasters. So let's not automatically "[t]hrow magic into the mix" here. Second, consider the fact that literacy is not automatic. There are certain groups or classes that don't get it. If literacy isn't automatic, then certainly basic mathematics won't be automatic. Nor advanced maths. Having the equivalent of a first-world high school education means at least a passing understanding of math and science. That means you've already got a couple of ranks in Heal, for instance, as well as a smattering of Knowledge skills.

But let's look at some of the things an in-world so-called expert can do. With Knowledge (engineering), you can identify that a column is load-bearing, under strain, or damaged. Or, if you watched enough HGTV, you can probably eyeball that sucker. Knowledge (religion) will tell you that you've entered the temple of an evil god. Or you can just notice that there's a blood-stained altar and all of the walls are engraved with grinning skulls. Knowledge (dungeoneering) can tell you not to eat anything you find in a dungeon, nor touch the walls, nor step on odd-looking tiles. Or you can just use your experience watching Indiana Jones and know the exact same thing. ("Yeah, that looks like a floor tile puzzle. Better stop here, pretty sure it's booby-trapped.")

Point is, a lot of things that should be obvious to us require in-world skills. We would be like prophets to these people, even before you get to the baseline education thing.

My point was that we wouldn't be able to be a court engineer or accountant with a high school education, because - while magic isn't exactly commonplace, and neither is education - a proper court would probably have a decent int Wizard capable of buffing himself daily that could easily show you up.

We'd be well above-average, sure, but so are Wizards. I don't know about you, but I'd choose the proven Wizard over random shmuck any day.

[FocusWolf413]

Knowing me, I'm going to find a Thieves guild with a K local 1d20+6, I'm going to join 1d20+7. Then I'm going to have a blast.

Your build is acceptable, but because Pun Pun knows you only built yourself that way to be a smartass, he teleports you into a gladiator pit in the Abyss. Have fun.



Oh, come now; a 14 in Str will only let you carry 175 pounds.


14 is carrying 175 pounds in a backpack and belt-pouches and such comfortably. You can actually lift and move up to 350 pounds over short distances and push/drag 875 if you must. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Our soldiers receive pretty thorough training to be able to carry their gear all day. Their loads are significantly lighter, and they get weighed down by them.

Although 175lbs is a heavy load, with a 14, you can go all day with that load and not be exhausted. I would be surprised if more than a couple people here could do that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's also not really rare at all, in that pretty much any town gym (in america anyway) will have people that strong and stronger. My brother for instance, has a strength score of 15. He won state in powerlifting in highschool, and he knows tons of guys stronger than him (some are waaaaaay stronger).

If strength scores like that are as common as they are, I can only assume the other scores are too.

That's not really surprising. Consider that 5% of the US populace is 15 million people and people with similar interests tend to gather. Thats talking about str 17+. 14-15 would, necessarily, be much more common still.

Conversely, your brother was stronger than all those other competitors in your state, does that not say to you that he is, in fact, much stronger than average?

[Strigon]

All right, I fear my points have been misconstrued into something like what I was saying, but with several key differences.




Here's the original quote:

You're forgetting the obvious answer to this: passing high school mathematics has given you a more comprehensive understanding of the universe than almost anyone in a medieval setting. Show off whatever you remember from physics and algebra and you will be launched to the position of royal accountant or chief siege engineer pretty darn quickly. The reason those things were drilled into most of us is because they do have plenty of universal applications, so a good base in math is a resource that every halfway-intelligent lord will want in their court (for an example of this, look at Archimedes).
Obviously, the bits I highlighted are the important ones.


A few things. First, most NPCs aren't necessarily spellcasters. So let's not automatically "[t]hrow magic into the mix" here. Second, consider the fact that literacy is not automatic. There are certain groups or classes that don't get it. If literacy isn't automatic, then certainly basic mathematics won't be automatic. Nor advanced maths. Having the equivalent of a first-world high school education means at least a passing understanding of math and science. That means you've already got a couple of ranks in Heal, for instance, as well as a smattering of Knowledge skills.

But let's look at some of the things an in-world so-called expert can do. With Knowledge (engineering), you can identify that a column is load-bearing, under strain, or damaged. Or, if you watched enough HGTV, you can probably eyeball that sucker. Knowledge (religion) will tell you that you've entered the temple of an evil god. Or you can just notice that there's a blood-stained altar and all of the walls are engraved with grinning skulls. Knowledge (dungeoneering) can tell you not to eat anything you find in a dungeon, nor touch the walls, nor step on odd-looking tiles. Or you can just use your experience watching Indiana Jones and know the exact same thing. ("Yeah, that looks like a floor tile puzzle. Better stop here, pretty sure it's booby-trapped.")

Point is, a lot of things that should be obvious to us require in-world skills. We would be like prophets to these people, even before you get to the baseline education thing.

See, the entire original post was about mathematics. Something court wizards could outperform even Stephen Hawking at, I daresay, once they've gotten a few levels under their belts.

Now, you're talking about common knowledge, knowledge of tropes, scientific knowledge, and metagame knowledge and lumping them all together with mathematics.
Undoubtedly, those would be helpful, but mathematics alone? The people who need it already have it.

Even high school biology or chemistry would be a massive boon for a standard medieval setting, but in a setting with Clerics it becomes most helpful to the commoners, since royalty could afford the much faster and more effective Heal spells.

Your points are valid, but they aren't what I was disagreeing to.



The real life bell curve is waaaay different. I'd be surprised if anyone in this forum (except Red Fel) had over a 14 in anything.



It's also not really rare at all, in that pretty much any town gym (in america anyway) will have people that strong and stronger. My brother for instance, has a strength score of 15. He won state in powerlifting in highschool, and he knows tons of guys stronger than him (some are waaaaaay stronger).

If strength scores like that are as common as they are, I can only assume the other scores are too.

See? That's just state powerlifting at the high school level, too. It doesn't take into account the kids who weren't interested, and the ones who are strong in other ways. I don't know much about the sport, but I'm fairly certain it tests almost exclusively one aspect of what "Strength" encompasses. Being the best at that would give you a high score, but not being the best wouldn't necessarily exclude you from having a high score.

I'd argue that the national guard, firefighters, most soldiers, even many police officers have Strength of 14 and up. It's unfortunate that lifting weights is - to my knowledge - the only quantifiable way to measure and ability score both in game and real life. There's a lot it doesn't cover, and it leaves every other score to guesswork.



Really? Way I figure, it's like winning a major sporting competition - you do this one big thing, get an award and a parade, and thereafter live the life of Riley. You get invited to all the celebrity parties, endorsement deals for sneakers and soda pop, hang out with world leaders.

You get to be famous for being famous after that.

See, you're making a leap there from knowing how to kill it to actually kill it.
Considering there's only one, you'd have to find it - no easy feat if it's sleeping - and then travel to it and kill it.

Two possibilities exist; either you meant "I know that it takes a Wish to kill it", or "I know ways to kill it easily". There's some inherent ambiguity there, and those two statements are very different.

If you mean you know an exploit that allows you to kill it, you still have to track it down and perform the exploit before it/an orc/whatever other random encounter you meet kills you first.

If you mean you know it takes a Wish to kill it, then you have even more problems - mostly, retrieving the Wish and why would you waste it on killing the Tarrasque that's a terrible idea stop it

I mean, I agree that killing him (her? It? Whatever) would get you set for life, but there's more to killing the Tarrasque than just knowing how to do it.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Your build is acceptable, but because Pun Pun knows you only built yourself that way to be a smartass, he teleports you into a gladiator pit in the Abyss. Have fun.


will I guess pun pun is not as All knowing as he thinks. If i wanted to be a smartass i would have made myself a hafling. I would have been a gestalt Wizard/psion60, Warblade/factotum40, i would have given myself ability scores of 100010/5000.
why am i all of this
Wizard because reasons
Psion because psychic reasons
Warblade because its stabby time
Factotum because Smartass moments

but i didn't because I wasn't trying to be a smartass. i built it exactly like I and my brother see me. Also i'm not in the abyss because i cast a spell on myself called Smartasse's glorious Rule of all that makes anyone that attempts to effects me (besides myself) in any way shape or form to die because I say so.

[FocusWolf413]

See, you're making a leap there from knowing how to kill it to actually kill it.
Considering there's only one, you'd have to find it - no easy feat if it's sleeping - and then travel to it and kill it.

Two possibilities exist; either you meant "I know that it takes a Wish to kill it", or "I know ways to kill it easily". There's some inherent ambiguity there, and those two statements are very different.

If you mean you know an exploit that allows you to kill it, you still have to track it down and perform the exploit before it/an orc/whatever other random encounter you meet kills you first.

If you mean you know it takes a Wish to kill it, then you have even more problems - mostly, retrieving the Wish and why would you waste it on killing the Tarrasque that's a terrible idea stop it

I mean, I agree that killing him (her? It? Whatever) would get you set for life, but there's more to killing the Tarrasque than just knowing how to do it.

You're forgetting something important: this is Red Fel you're talking about. Ignoring any physical or supernatural abilities he has as Asmodeus, The Serpent of War, Ruler of the Nine Hells, the One Who Screwed Over The Gods and Lived a contract lawyer and ignoring any current favors owed to him, he has one important ability. He has one major thing that got him there.

He'll still have his ability to manipulate people. He'll still have his charm, his logic, and his mind. That's some scary stuff right there.

[Strigon]

You're forgetting something important: this is Red Fel you're talking about. Ignoring any physical or supernatural abilities he has as Asmodeus, The Serpent of War, Ruler of the Nine Hells, the One Who Screwed Over The Gods and Lived a contract lawyer and ignoring any current favors owed to him, he has one important ability. He has one major thing that got him there.

He'll still have his ability to manipulate people. He'll still have his charm, his logic, and his mind. That's some scary stuff right there.

He might be able to, but his claim was that anyone with that knowledge could live a life of luxury. I simply think that you need more.
Not that that in any way invalidates his core argument.

[Red Fel]

You're forgetting something important: this is Red Fel you're talking about. Ignoring any physical or supernatural abilities he has as Asmodeus, The Serpent of War, Ruler of the Nine Hells, the One Who Screwed Over The Gods and Lived a contract lawyer and ignoring any current favors owed to him, he has one important ability. He has one major thing that got him there.

He'll still have his ability to manipulate people. He'll still have his charm, his logic, and his mind. That's some scary stuff right there.


He might be able to, but his claim was that anyone with that knowledge could live a life of luxury. I simply think that you need more.
Not that that in any way invalidates his core argument.

Well, since we're dwelling on the "kill the Tarrasque" idea, I was referring to the more esoteric (read: cheese) methods of killing it. Not straight-up kill + Wish, but stuff like using an Allip or similar. The "How to kill a Tarrasque with a Commoner" type stuff. Most of us have read those threads, and the OP presumes that our hypothetical traveler has sufficiently comprehensive system knowledge to know how to pull it off.

You don't even need to personally do it. You just need to find the ingredients, coordinate the team, and share in the glory.

Now, obviously, killing the Tarrasque only applies if there is a Tarrasque to kill. But the same logic - absurdly cheesy ways to overcome otherwise purportedly-epic challenges - applies to other things. Slaying Dragons. Killing gods. Destroying Evil artifacts. Pretty much anything that can pose a serious threat to a massive chunk of the world, we have discussed and dissected ways to beat it. You don't even need to be the one who personally drops the hammer - you just need to get all the pieces together. Even being one of the "legendary heroes" is enough to set you up for life. We all know how those stories go, after all.

I just have the natural advantage in that area, is all.

[Eladrinblade]

Conversely, your brother was stronger than all those other competitors in your state, does that not say to you that he is, in fact, much stronger than average?

I never said he was average; in fact I implied that he wasn't.

BUT, yes and no. Those competitions are based on your weight; he won in his weight class (and would have beat the next highest one as well, so I heard). Each weight class is pretty small; it's like 10lbs or less, I think, and my brother weighed I think 148lbs at the time, so you can imagine how strong the 200lb+ guys would be.

Of course he's almost guaranteed to be stronger than a random person off the street, but you wouldn't have a hard time finding somebody stronger...which is about what a 15 should imply, I think.

Consider this: he was the strongest competing kid in his weight class in my state for that year, and he has a 15. That's pretty specific. Non-competing, older people of various weights, all around the world, at any given time, can also have high strength scores.

I don't get why people get so hung up on ability scores, anyway. They're only one factor in a much larger whole. There's also class, level, skills/feats, and build optimization to consider. An 18 str 1st level commoner can still go down in a punch or two in a bar fight, and isn't gonna be shaking the world or anything. You have to be the best in every area to really be the person at the edge who makes history.

My point is I don't think high scores are really all that rare; sometimes people are just genetically lucky. Much rarer is the motivation and drive (and luck and circumstances) to be truly good at something, rarer still that and a really high score.

Acting like nobody you know has more than a 14 is pretty silly to me, but every thread anywhere on the net has a few people that have to come in and say so, with 0 evidence backing them.

[Alent]

I don't get why people get so hung up on ability scores, anyway. They're only one factor in a much larger whole. There's also class, level, skills/feats, and build optimization to consider. An 18 str 1st level commoner can still go down in a punch or two in a bar fight, and isn't gonna be shaking the world or anything. You have to be the best in every area to really be the person at the edge who makes history.

My point is I don't think high scores are really all that rare; sometimes people are just genetically lucky. Much rarer is the motivation and drive (and luck and circumstances) to be truly good at something, rarer still that and a really high score.

Acting like nobody you know has more than a 14 is pretty silly to me, but every thread anywhere on the net has a few people that have to come in and say so, with 0 evidence backing them.

I've been trying to figure out why everyone's stats matter to the thread. Even if you have 8 int and 7 wis, it really isn't going to matter once wish loops come online. (or put another way, you'd only have 8 int and 7 wis UNTIL wish loops come online.)

It's been a while since I looked into Wish loops- do some of them require 16 int?

[WhatThePhysics]

I've been trying to figure out why everyone's stats matter to the thread. Even if you have 8 int and 7 wis, it really isn't going to matter once wish loops come online. (or put another way, you'd only have 8 int and 7 wis UNTIL wish loops come online.)

It's been a while since I looked into Wish loops- do some of them require 16 int?

You'll need Intelligence 16 to cast Planar Binding, or Wisdom 16 to cast Planar Ally. Excluding items, deities, diplomacy, or Pazuzu, I don't see how you'll convince an astute, warded being to let you start your own loop.

[Strigon]

I've been trying to figure out why everyone's stats matter to the thread. Even if you have 8 int and 7 wis, it really isn't going to matter once wish loops come online. (or put another way, you'd only have 8 int and 7 wis UNTIL wish loops come online.)

It's been a while since I looked into Wish loops- do some of them require 16 int?

Well, for one reason or another, not everyone is talking about blatant munchkinery of that level.
I'm pretty sure, for example, the original question was more interested in hearing how everyone would behave in a "conventional" way, rather than just hearing several variations of wish looping or Pun-Pun.

For the people who are discussing survival in the D&D world, without those... exploits, shall we say, stats are probably the first determining factor for which route you take. And, in the case of Con, may directly influence how long you survive.

[Zanos]

14 is carrying 175 pounds in a backpack and belt-pouches and such comfortably. You can actually lift and move up to 350 pounds over short distances and push/drag 875 if you must. That's nothing to sneeze at.
So pretty much everyone in any modern countries armed forces? It's not uncommon for soldiers these days to carry over 100 pounds of gear. "Comfortably" isn't exactly accurate, as 175 is a heavy load for 14 str.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So pretty much everyone in any modern countries armed forces? It's not uncommon for soldiers these days to carry over 100 pounds of gear. "Comfortably" isn't exactly accurate, as 175 is a heavy load for 14 str.

Comfortably, not easily. Also, 175 is closer to 200 than 100. That's a bit much for anything but a machine gun crew. Do they even do those anymore? Besides, soldiers use framed packs and other gear to reduce the effective weight or increase their effective strength these days.

[Mordaedil]

Well, since we're dwelling on the "kill the Tarrasque" idea, I was referring to the more esoteric (read: cheese) methods of killing it. Not straight-up kill + Wish, but stuff like using an Allip or similar. The "How to kill a Tarrasque with a Commoner" type stuff. Most of us have read those threads, and the OP presumes that our hypothetical traveler has sufficiently comprehensive system knowledge to know how to pull it off.

You don't even need to personally do it. You just need to find the ingredients, coordinate the team, and share in the glory.

Now, obviously, killing the Tarrasque only applies if there is a Tarrasque to kill. But the same logic - absurdly cheesy ways to overcome otherwise purportedly-epic challenges - applies to other things. Slaying Dragons. Killing gods. Destroying Evil artifacts. Pretty much anything that can pose a serious threat to a massive chunk of the world, we have discussed and dissected ways to beat it. You don't even need to be the one who personally drops the hammer - you just need to get all the pieces together. Even being one of the "legendary heroes" is enough to set you up for life. We all know how those stories go, after all.

I just have the natural advantage in that area, is all.
What is the most mundane way to end a tarrasque? What happens if it doesn't work because there's a loophole in the rules that the tarrasque uses and we have been unprivvy to? Do we have backup plans? What can we do assuming nobody trusts us or bother to listen to us?

[Eldest]

I believe it is a well trained mount, and archery.

[Strigon]

Comfortably, not easily. Also, 175 is closer to 200 than 100. That's a bit much for anything but a machine gun crew. Do they even do those anymore? Besides, soldiers use framed packs and other gear to reduce the effective weight or increase their effective strength these days.

Actually, not comfortably or easily. It's like the average person carrying 100 pounds (that's the max heavy load for Str 10, just for the record). Sure, it can be done, but let's not claim it's comfortable or easy.

Besides, modern combat relies almost entirely on mobility; positioning is everything. You could weigh them down more, and they could still do their jobs, but they'd be slower - and as such, more likely to get shot.

Keep in mind, in the military, they give you what they expect you'll need to survive, with very little surplus. Just because soldiers don't carry more doesn't mean they can't. In fact, I'd argue that most - if not all - of them are capable of carrying significantly more, if only because I doubt all of them are constantly at the breaking point.

[Red Fel]

What is the most mundane way to end a tarrasque? What happens if it doesn't work because there's a loophole in the rules that the tarrasque uses and we have been unprivvy to? Do we have backup plans? What can we do assuming nobody trusts us or bother to listen to us?

1. The OP assumes "you have complete knowledge of the rules, physics, and universe as written." With perfect system mastery comes perfect system exploitation. It can therefore be assumed that you know every "Commoner Kills the Tarrasque" trick.

2. Not applicable. The OP assumes "you have complete knowledge of the rules, physics, and universe as written." Saying, "But there are rules to which we are not privy" ignores the word complete in the prompt.

3. You literally have all of the backup plans. You know all of the plans.

4. This is the most relevant question. And the answer, frankly, is be me. Of course, that creates a bit of a paradox - if you aren't me, people might not trust or listen to you; if you are me, they will, and thus you don't need to resolve the "what if they don't?" question.

To put it differently:

http://ytimg.googleusercontent.com/vi/ZtU10nkQKe4/mqdefault.jpg

[Masema]

Well, there is something else about the ability scores that many people are either deliberately ignoring, or haven't thought of yet.

A natural 18 in any ability score is only a +4 to any given skill. So let's take wisdom as an example. A natural 18 to wisdom would result in a natural +4 to spot. So the question is, can you constantly spot something 40 feet away, when there is nothing between you and it and it's not hiding? Not just reliably, but constantly? That's 18 Wisdom.

Can you constantly jump 4 feet? That's 18 strength. What about Reliably (3/4 tries) tying a firm knot without taking special courses in knot tying? 18 Dex. Do you remember random obscure trivia in areas that you haven't studied? 18 INT. Do strange (domestic) animals obey you when you tell them to sit(the easiest method of using handle animal)? 18CHA.


So, by this test, I would have somewhere in the +1/+2 range for all of my skills, except for INT and CHA, which would be the +3/+4 area.

I can regularly talk people down from an angry position, I can handle animals easily, I can constantly jump 3 feet, Knots take about 4-5 tries before they take, I have been voted Best Actor in my drama troupe for multiple productions(perform). My spot checks are not so great, I often miss small things that are barely hid, so low wisdom there.

[digiman619]

The problem with me getting sucked into a Patfinder/D&D realm is that Constitution is clearly my highest score (I rarely get sick; I enjoy hiking, etc.), and constitution is the "also-ran" of the stats. I mean, all the mental stats are important for the various kind of casters (Int for prepared arcane, Cha for spontaneous arcane, and Wis for divine), and anytime I see a handbook for martial class, I see a discussion on the benefits of being Str based vs Dex based, but I can't recall a single build where a Con higher than 13 or so was an important factor.

[Vizzerdrix]

One of the dragony classes has con based saves. You could grab entangling breath from level 1 and be our battlefield controler.

[Virdish]

The problem with me getting sucked into a Patfinder/D&D realm is that Constitution is clearly my highest score (I rarely get sick; I enjoy hiking, etc.), and constitution is the "also-ran" of the stats. I mean, all the mental stats are important for the various kind of casters (Int for prepared arcane, Cha for spontaneous arcane, and Wis for divine), and anytime I see a handbook for martial class, I see a discussion on the benefits of being Str based vs Dex based, but I can't recall a single build where a Con higher than 13 or so was an important factor.

Incarnum is your friend as is Dragonfire Adept.

[Alent]

You'll need Intelligence 16 to cast Planar Binding, or Wisdom 16 to cast Planar Ally. Excluding items, deities, diplomacy, or Pazuzu, I don't see how you'll convince an astute, warded being to let you start your own loop.

Ahah, right, brain was stuck in pathfinder mode for spellcasting slots where you don't need 10+level stat to cast. (I have long suspected that Wis is one of my IRL dump stats.) Regardless, purchasing a casting of Planar Ally from an is what, 1910 gold, before the diplomacy phase of things? That's well below the "becomes unobtainable mark" of spellcasting services costing 3k gold.

If the experience is pure 3.5, low Int could also torpedo item crafting feat acquisition, but wouldn't do much else to deter crafting your way to profit and glory with aid another. Therefore, I don't think items and diplomacy should be excluded. Especially depending on what rule systems and classes are available to us. In a 3.P scenario, the aid another trick mentioned earlier in the thread would both let you rapidly amass the required wealth to craft magic items, and use Pathfinder's "Eh, not having the spellcasting requirement just adds to the DC" rule to craft a magic item to place candle based wish loops within reach.

I know I'd be aiming for Craft(Trapmaking) right off the bat just to start making money. Fair odds that my IRL experience would actually start me out with decent ranks of it, even. (I am an obsessive DIYer and while my IRL skill is mostly laughable, I'm pretty sure I'd start with at least 1 rank in most craft skills.) The mundane trapmaking rules seems like the foundation for a number of beneficial inventions from our world from airplanes to mechanical calculators like the difference engine.

Lots of really cool options come online when Craft Wondrous Item is obtained, especially if Pathfinder crafting is an option. I'm thinking 0th level spell perpetual motion machines, a water towers filled by a self resetting trap of create water, or prestidigitation sanitation devices. Things that could sell in sufficient volumes to both fund the purchase of Jumpstart-wishes, and also establish the connections required to gain the opportunity to purchase them.

And should I fail at achieving that, I figure I have equal odds of eternity in Arborea or Mechanus. I'm sure both are lovely this time of forever. :smalltongue:


Well, for one reason or another, not everyone is talking about blatant munchkinery of that level.
I'm pretty sure, for example, the original question was more interested in hearing how everyone would behave in a "conventional" way, rather than just hearing several variations of wish looping or Pun-Pun.

For the people who are discussing survival in the D&D world, without those... exploits, shall we say, stats are probably the first determining factor for which route you take. And, in the case of Con, may directly influence how long you survive.

I guess what throws me is, given the task of personal survival in an extremely unforgiving set of circumstances, I don't see the sense in avoiding exploits, and I've often seen it said that past a certain level of optimization stats cease to matter. The scenario seems to imply that there is no gentleman's agreement about acceptable munchkinry or table rules and the OP has stated that such exploits are expected and readily available. Given that the "proper" way of going about things entails a five man band and in all likelihood is inaccessible to us given our stats (I, for one, am str 6, and have no more than 12 dex.) it seems only reasonable to cheese our way to safety.

In fact, I don't think it's just "reasonable", I think it's a forced outcome. My understanding of Game Theory is pretty weak, but doesn't the circumstance dictate that since everyone involved would be chucked into random corners of the world, and someone would establish a stable wish loop eventually, we'd all be forced out of self-survival to establish a stable wish loop at the earliest opportunity as to help each other survive and/or resurrect the fallen lest we find ourselves in a wish war, unarmed? (I don't think I've ever argued both definitions of MAD at the same time as a reason to use TO before, but I guess there's a first time for everything.)

If we're meant to have some sort of grand Isekai adventure, D&D with full system mastery is probably not the world for it, unless we're meant to reenact Overlord. :smalltongue:

[Strigon]

I guess what throws me is, given the task of personal survival in an extremely unforgiving set of circumstances, I don't see the sense in avoiding exploits, and I've often seen it said that past a certain level of optimization stats cease to matter. The scenario seems to imply that there is no gentleman's agreement about acceptable munchkinry or table rules and the OP has stated that such exploits are expected and readily available. Given that the "proper" way of going about things entails a five man band and in all likelihood is inaccessible to us given our stats (I, for one, am str 6, and have no more than 12 dex.) it seems only reasonable to cheese our way to safety.

In fact, I don't think it's just "reasonable", I think it's a forced outcome. My understanding of Game Theory is pretty weak, but doesn't the circumstance dictate that since everyone involved would be chucked into random corners of the world, and someone would establish a stable wish loop eventually, we'd all be forced out of self-survival to establish a stable wish loop at the earliest opportunity as to help each other survive and/or resurrect the fallen lest we find ourselves in a wish war, unarmed? (I don't think I've ever argued both definitions of MAD at the same time as a reason to use TO before, but I guess there's a first time for everything.)

If we're meant to have some sort of grand Isekai adventure, D&D with full system mastery is probably not the world for it, unless we're meant to reenact Overlord. :smalltongue:

Unless I'm mistaken, it was specified that you're the only one transported, so the game theory argument doesn't apply.

But it's somewhat irrelevant, anyway; my point was that if we abuse the rules like this, it just becomes a discussion of the fastest way to become omnipotent, and we've had more than enough of those. It's far more interesting to answer the question with what we'd do using PO.

[WhatThePhysics]

What is the most mundane way to end a tarrasque? What happens if it doesn't work because there's a loophole in the rules that the tarrasque uses and we have been unprivvy to? Do we have backup plans? What can we do assuming nobody trusts us or bother to listen to us?

Drown it, spear it into place, then build a city on top of it (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?261519-D-amp-Dish-The-city-built-around-the-tarrasque). If that doesn't work, repeat castings of Transmute Rock to Mud and Transmute Mud to Rock should bury and suffocate it. If they don't trust or listen to you, make it one of your top priorities to change that. The Tarrasque isn't a big threat to the sufficiently optimized, but civil unrest from viral rumors and fear mongering about it can be.


Ahah, right, brain was stuck in pathfinder mode for spellcasting slots where you don't need 10+level stat to cast. (I have long suspected that Wis is one of my IRL dump stats.) Regardless, purchasing a casting of Planar Ally from an is what, 1910 gold, before the diplomacy phase of things? That's well below the "becomes unobtainable mark" of spellcasting services costing 3k gold.

If the experience is pure 3.5, low Int could also torpedo item crafting feat acquisition, but wouldn't do much else to deter crafting your way to profit and glory with aid another. Therefore, I don't think items and diplomacy should be excluded. Especially depending on what rule systems and classes are available to us. In a 3.P scenario, the aid another trick mentioned earlier in the thread would both let you rapidly amass the required wealth to craft magic items, and use Pathfinder's "Eh, not having the spellcasting requirement just adds to the DC" rule to craft a magic item to place candle based wish loops within reach.

I know I'd be aiming for Craft(Trapmaking) right off the bat just to start making money. Fair odds that my IRL experience would actually start me out with decent ranks of it, even. (I am an obsessive DIYer and while my IRL skill is mostly laughable, I'm pretty sure I'd start with at least 1 rank in most craft skills.) The mundane trapmaking rules seems like the foundation for a number of beneficial inventions from our world from airplanes to mechanical calculators like the difference engine.

Lots of really cool options come online when Craft Wondrous Item is obtained, especially if Pathfinder crafting is an option. I'm thinking 0th level spell perpetual motion machines, a water towers filled by a self resetting trap of create water, or prestidigitation sanitation devices. Things that could sell in sufficient volumes to both fund the purchase of Jumpstart-wishes, and also establish the connections required to gain the opportunity to purchase them.

And should I fail at achieving that, I figure I have equal odds of eternity in Arborea or Mechanus. I'm sure both are lovely this time of forever. :smalltongue:

The problem isn't finding an 11th level Cleric or Wizard to cast Planar Ally/Binding, but convincing them to do it so you can start a Wish loop. They're also likely to have ranks in Knowledge (The Planes), which raises the question of why they haven't already ascended by summoning their own Efreeti/Noble Djinn. It's likely all the necessary parties are ignorant/rare enough to delay its occurrence.

As for Craft Wondrous Item, you might find these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507769-Playgrounders-in-D-amp-D/page5&p=21453804&postcount=136#post21453804) musings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507769-Playgrounders-in-D-amp-D/page5&p=21455857&postcount=148#post21455857) helpful. I've yet to assess the remaining powers and spells in the SRD, but just 0th level effects are capable of providing modern comforts.

[Alent]

Unless I'm mistaken, it was specified that you're the only one transported, so the game theory argument doesn't apply.

While that is the OP's pretense, both solo and group possibilities seem to be in active discussion. I think the group makes more sense, as being the only person transported would make me unbelievably paranoid as to why.

Even if inexplicably, you're a true one of a kind world traveler, there's still a game theory argument argument to be made that putting yourself at risk of being vulnerable to mindrape/vampires/Illithid/etc. could result in the ascension of a multiverse conquering despot, but that is a different argument.


But it's somewhat irrelevant, anyway; my point was that if we abuse the rules like this, it just becomes a discussion of the fastest way to become omnipotent, and we've had more than enough of those. It's far more interesting to answer the question with what we'd do using PO.

*lightbulb goes off* Oh, I see! Now I can put into words that weird vague pseudo-thought that was originally nagging at me- The lack of details kept me from seeing this as an exercise of PO, and so I was trying to follow it as an odd form of Ethics question- and off on an orthogonal tangent I went.


Drown it, spear it into place, then build a city on top of it (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?261519-D-amp-Dish-The-city-built-around-the-tarrasque).

That story is such a classic, and for some reason I just read your sentence in Samwise Gamgee's voice. Accursed tater-rasque.


The problem isn't finding an 11th level Cleric or Wizard to cast Planar Ally/Binding, but convincing them to do it so you can start a Wish loop. They're also likely to have ranks in Knowledge (The Planes), which raises the question of why they haven't already ascended by summoning their own Efreeti/Noble Djinn. It's likely all the necessary parties are ignorant/rare enough to delay its occurrence.

It's actually not hard to imagine reasons why it hasn't happened- my assumption was that Efreeti/Noble Djinn expect commensurate return for granting wishes. It's right there in the spell- they expect payment for services. 3 castings of a level 9 spell that can be used to obtain an absurd amount of wealth or power? I don't expect the negotiation phase to be cheap "here's some gold for your time" like the text reads. You and I can probably think of some fair trades, but we've been exposed to years of fiction, stranger than fiction real life success stories, and lots of both TO and PO discussion, where the average 11th level Cleric or Wizard lacks that huge base of inspiration to pull from- he may have even tried and failed in the past.


As for Craft Wondrous Item, you might find these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507769-Playgrounders-in-D-amp-D/page5&p=21453804&postcount=136#post21453804) musings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?507769-Playgrounders-in-D-amp-D/page5&p=21455857&postcount=148#post21455857) helpful. I've yet to assess the remaining powers and spells in the SRD, but just 0th level effects are capable of providing modern comforts.

I thought I directly referenced those, but I proofread that so many times to make sure my confused tone didn't come across as hostile that I may have snipped it out. Ooops. :smalleek:

I'd actually avoid creating the internet. The internet is a wonderful thing, but doing it right is hard, and it's so abstract and by nature encourages a certain kind of destabilizing globalization that no sane regent would ever permit unless his state was in an ideal place to benefit from it. Instead, I'd start with something easier to sell, like creating airplanes and revolutionizing freight. It'd be much easier to get patrons as you can demonstrate the principle with a model aircraft and a familiar. (I'm sure rigging up some form of rudimentary magic trap based RC control would be possible, but it'd be so much easier to just train an intelligent creature of appropriate size to fly it as to gain sponsorship to shortcut the slow warm up for magic trap costs.) Things like know direction traps would make it even better because it'd shortcut needing GPS spells.

Anyway, once you have the backing of a kingdom or large guild, you start getting the magic 0th level spell traps online and start working your way up the chain, overwhelming your sponsors with awesome conveniences, like Central Air conditioning in the summer and Central heat in the winter. By the time you're ready for your ascension, people should be bending over backwards to help you get what you want. They'd have no clue what it's for, but since you've made all of them so absurdly wealthy that you've moved them to fanatically loyal, they'd assume it had something to do with a new invention that they can't even imagine yet.

But yeah, at the end of establishing a wish-loop, undoing any damage I'd done by establishing it, and enjoying some escapist wish fulfillment like wishing for good health, all those console games I could never afford/find, wishing for more storage space, for Capcom to start making good Megaman X games again, etc. I think I'd wish to know if it was safe to return home and then wish my way home if safe. (For all I know, I could've been transported to the D&D-verse when the entire normal universe was destroyed by colliding with the far realm, and "wishing to return home" could be a one way trip to madness.)

If safe to return home, the last wish would be to make a hallmark TV movie out of it that starts as a bedtime story at the grandparents' place and ends with a "being normal is great, isn't it?" Aesop and a "That was just a story, right?" zinger.

[Strigon]

*lightbulb goes off* Oh, I see! Now I can put into words that weird vague pseudo-thought that was originally nagging at me- The lack of details kept me from seeing this as an exercise of PO, and so I was trying to follow it as an odd form of Ethics question- and off on an orthogonal tangent I went.


Well, that's just how I interpreted the question. I can't say for certain that's what the writer intended, but it seems more likely to me that he just wanted to know what role we'd be able to fill with our stats.

Edit:
Actually, you know, it is quite ambiguous.
For my part, I find the question of what we'd do using PO more interesting, so that's how I chose to answer. But he very well could be asking TO, as well.

[WhatThePhysics]

It's actually not hard to imagine reasons why it hasn't happened- my assumption was that Efreeti/Noble Djinn expect commensurate return for granting wishes. It's right there in the spell- they expect payment for services. 3 castings of a level 9 spell that can be used to obtain an absurd amount of wealth or power? I don't expect the negotiation phase to be cheap "here's some gold for your time" like the text reads. You and I can probably think of some fair trades, but we've been exposed to years of fiction, stranger than fiction real life success stories, and lots of both TO and PO discussion, where the average 11th level Cleric or Wizard lacks that huge base of inspiration to pull from- he may have even tried and failed in the past.

"You let me have one Wish to myself, the second Wish can be something you want, and then I'll Wish that you're transformed into the kind of genie that isn't forced to grant Wishes to whoever captures them."

Then you Wish for a Candle of Invocation, give them their Wish, free them from potentially eternal servitude with Polymorph Any Object, and ascend into infinity.


I'd actually avoid creating the internet. The internet is a wonderful thing, but doing it right is hard, and it's so abstract and by nature encourages a certain kind of destabilizing globalization that no sane regent would ever permit unless his state was in an ideal place to benefit from it. Instead, I'd start with something easier to sell, like creating airplanes and revolutionizing freight. It'd be much easier to get patrons as you can demonstrate the principle with a model aircraft and a familiar. (I'm sure rigging up some form of rudimentary magic trap based RC control would be possible, but it'd be so much easier to just train an intelligent creature of appropriate size to fly it as to gain sponsorship to shortcut the slow warm up for magic trap costs.) Things like know direction traps would make it even better because it'd shortcut needing GPS spells.

If you avoid making computers, you could stall the singularity long enough for you to ascend. To be more precise, you're not so much building the internet as you are building the basis for a signalling network independent of light towers illuminated by fires.

But, let's talk modern transport.

If a 1st level item of Grease creates a millimeter thick layer of olive oil across 100 feet², and the fuel is exploited at 50% efficiency before vanishing in 6 seconds, it can output 17.8 megawatts. The Wright Flyer III was 780 pounds, and it used a 21 horsepower engine. If it had a Grease engine, and we ignored the aerodynamic effects of more mass/volume, it could lift about 890,000 pounds off the ground. You'll need better engineering/materials to make that work, or you could just lower the efficiency. Alternatively, you could make dirigibles.

As for GPS, Know Direction and Location is better, but it's a 1st level psionic power.


Anyway, once you have the backing of a kingdom or large guild, you start getting the magic 0th level spell traps online and start working your way up the chain, overwhelming your sponsors with awesome conveniences, like Central Air conditioning in the summer and Central heat in the winter. By the time you're ready for your ascension, people should be bending over backwards to help you get what you want. They'd have no clue what it's for, but since you've made all of them so absurdly wealthy that you've moved them to fanatically loyal, they'd assume it had something to do with a new invention that they can't even imagine yet.

You'd also become a major target for assassins/kidnappers with patrons that feel threatened by your activities. Given the destabilizing effects of just 0th level spells on a pseudo-feudal society, it's likely this would apply to every power structure that isn't borderline egalitarian. Sure, commoners would probably be fanatical, but what about artisan guilds, landed gentry, egocentric mages, petty dragons, or meddling deities?

[Elkad]

Str:9, Dex:10, Con:11, Int:17, Wis:9, Cha:7 That's including middle-age adjustments. I'm firmly CG.
Flaws: Inattentive. Something that gives me a penalty to diplomacy and sense motive (beyond my Charisma problem. Aspergers wasn't a word when I was a kid, but I surely have it). Penalty to encumbrance for being just shy of obese.
Feats: Able Learner. Quick Draw. Rapid Reload (Firearm). I used to have Endurance & Run, hopefully I can get them back.

I can argue for a level of Ranger or Fighter or Warrior, but it'd be a weird version without D&D martial proficiencies. 4yrs Airborne Infantry gives me a giant pile of modern weapon proficiencies, but for what I can pick up? Quarterstaff (and it's cousin the Short Spear), Sling and Dagger are all I can lay claim to. I guess crossbow translates nicely, especially after I invent a real trigger.

So Warrior 1, Expert 1, Commoner 2 (4th level)?

What comes with me? Naked? Do I get my glasses? Whatever I'd be wearing in a grocery or at work or sitting at my home computer like now? (If so, I'm armed with a pistol (with 58 rounds) and several masterwork blades, and wearing masterwork boots). 30 seconds to grab stuff in my house adds a lot more firepower, lights, some medical, and a water filter. 5 minutes adds a mountain of survival gear and a wheelbarrow to haul it all in, plus 5gp and 500sp. 10 minutes adds a stolen bicycle.

Get to civilization. If I have gear, hide most until I assess possible taxation/confiscation.
Embark on insane fitness program. Gotta get that Con up. It was 14 or so 25 years ago, I want that back.
Start inventing stuff. Huge int bonus and a smattering of skillpoints in EVERYTHING means I should be good at all things crafting.
Spend an equal amount of time figuring out the world. If I have magical or psionic aptitude, that is the obvious goal (and a personal dream).
I'll try to avoid attracting notice by not inventing weapons. Bicycles are a great first goal (along with all the other self-powered applications for the same. Pumps, Bellows, slave-powered ceiling fans, etc). Printing press. Welding. Water mills. Steam engines. Morse Code and heliograph towers. Yes, many will be curiosities in a land of magic. I want the money, not the giant change to the lives of peasants.
Pay for a Cure Disease ASAP. Who knows what is lurking in there. Years of bad/fun living means there is undetected arterial damage, insulin resistance, liver weakening, arthritis, etc.
Hook up with an elf maiden, even if I have to pay for it.

When I discover/suspect the existence of Red Fel, get better at hiding from him. Formulate many plans to either stop him, or leave his universe completely. Probably the second,

[Inevitability]

"You let me have one Wish to myself, the second Wish can be something you want, and then I'll Wish that you're transformed into the kind of genie that isn't forced to grant Wishes to whoever captures them."

Then you Wish for a Candle of Invocation, give them their Wish, free them from potentially eternal servitude with Polymorph Any Object, and ascend into infinity.

Why do we need Candles of Invocation beyond the first one, anyway? Isn't it much easier to just wish for a 'Luck Blade with none of its inherit wishes used'? As a magic item, it's freely wishable, and doesn't risk angering genies.

[FocusWolf413]

Str:9, Dex:10, Con:11, Int:17, Wis:9, Cha:7 That's including middle-age adjustments. I'm firmly CG.
Flaws: Inattentive. Something that gives me a penalty to diplomacy and sense motive (beyond my Charisma problem. Aspergers wasn't a word when I was a kid, but I surely have it). Penalty to encumbrance for being just shy of obese.
Feats: Able Learner. Quick Draw. Rapid Reload (Firearm). I used to have Endurance & Run, hopefully I can get them back.


You probably don't have a 17 intelligence. 14-15 is more realistic. Unless you've done some groundbreaking work in some scientific field, you can't really claim to have 16 or over. There's just not proof beyond, "I feel smart."

Also, int score isn't just IQ/10.



I can argue for a level of Ranger or Fighter or Warrior, but it'd be a weird version without D&D martial proficiencies. 4yrs Airborne Infantry gives me a giant pile of modern weapon proficiencies, but for what I can pick up? Quarterstaff (and it's cousin the Short Spear), Sling and Dagger are all I can lay claim to. I guess crossbow translates nicely, especially after I invent a real trigger.

So Warrior 1, Expert 1, Commoner 2 (4th level)?


Airborne infantry would give you 1 or more fighter levels. Replace martial weapon proficiencies with modern weapon proficiencies. You could probably pick up and use a crossbow with some training. It has a different feel, but it's not that different.

4th level seems a bit high. Fighter 1, Expert 2? Expert 1 Fighter 1 Expert 1?



What comes with me? Naked? Do I get my glasses? Whatever I'd be wearing in a grocery or at work or sitting at my home computer like now? (If so, I'm armed with a pistol (with 58 rounds) and several masterwork blades, and wearing masterwork boots). 30 seconds to grab stuff in my house adds a lot more firepower, lights, some medical, and a water filter. 5 minutes adds a mountain of survival gear and a wheelbarrow to haul it all in, plus 5gp and 500sp. 10 minutes adds a stolen bicycle.


As I addressed earlier, it's what you carry on your person in the middle of the day. You get no warning.



When I discover/suspect the existence of Red Fel, get better at hiding from him. Formulate many plans to either stop him, or leave his universe completely. Probably the second,

Why not work with him? He's not a bad guy. Don't get me wrong, he's The Great Evil that threatens the stability of the multiverse, but he's not a bad guy.

[Zanos]

Why do we need Candles of Invocation beyond the first one, anyway? Isn't it much easier to just wish for a 'Luck Blade with none of its inherit wishes used'? As a magic item, it's freely wishable, and doesn't risk angering genies.
I prefer rings of three wishes. Swords have pointy ends, and I'm rather clumsy. Does anything actually prevent you from using an item of wish to spend more XP than the item was created with?

[WhatThePhysics]

Why do we need Candles of Invocation beyond the first one, anyway? Isn't it much easier to just wish for a 'Luck Blade with none of its inherit wishes used'? As a magic item, it's freely wishable, and doesn't risk angering genies.

Wow. I never noticed that item, and it's in the SRD, too. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. :smallsmile:

As for the genies, making them incapable of casting Wish lowers the risk of their enslavement. If anything, you're doing them a favor while justifying the rarity of noble djinn.

[Red Fel]

When I discover/suspect the existence of Red Fel, get better at hiding from him. Formulate many plans to either stop him, or leave his universe completely. Probably the second,


Why not work with him? He's not a bad guy. Don't get me wrong, he's The Great Evil that threatens the stability of the multiverse, but he's not a bad guy.

Well, I am a bad guy, just not a bad... You know what? Someone explain it better.

http://insidejamarifox.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/tumblr_mdo9vspece1qbu7lgo1_500.gif

Thank you, Zangief.

Another note, I'm kind of surprised how little mention Overlord is getting, given that it's a series about this exact concept, writ large. I mean, the plot says that "MMO player wakes up to find himself as his MMO character in a high fantasy world," but looking at the series and the descriptions, it's more like "D&D player" and "D&D world." Now, admittedly, he finds himself as an epic-level Lich Wizard, but it's still him, using his real-world knowledge, in an alien fantasy world. (It's not his MMO world, is the twist.)

Basically, he does what I think a lot of us would probably try: Secure a base and allies, do some recon in the area, do some nice things for nearby villagers (Good or Evil, it's good to have a few disposable minions who like you), learn more about where you are and what's up.

Then aim for the throne.

[Strigon]

Someone needs to start a tally of how often you use that gif, mate.
It's gotta be at least three or four now

[Gwaednerth]

Without numbers, I'm a low strength, low constitution, moderate dexterity, low wisdom, moderate charisma, high intelligence. Assuming that a high school diploma translates to one level of expert, each year of college education translates to one, and each year of grad school translates to two, I'm currently a level 3 expert planning to become a level 17 expert. I have ranks in knowledge history and linguistics. If I had lived my life up until now in the D&D-verse but lived more or less the same life trajectory I'd also emphasise knowledge arcana. The first thing I'd do is sign up for wizard school, because let's face it, I've always wanted to be a wizard. Once I had a reasonable amount of magical ability, I would live a life of academia, probably maxing out the expert class. My magical skills and charisma would be put to use getting me research grants and helping me travel the world to visit archives and major historical sites. In my spare time, I would incite the people to rise up and destroy the bonkers economy of the D&D-verse before being inevitably executed in the radical, anti-intellectual phase of the very revolution I had created (except, of course, that by that point I'd have completed my phylactery and would be safely plotting world conquest).

[Elkad]

You probably don't have a 17 intelligence. 14-15 is more realistic. Unless you've done some groundbreaking work in some scientific field, you can't really claim to have 16 or over. There's just not proof beyond, "I feel smart."

Also, int score isn't just IQ/10.


Doing "groundbreaking work" means applying myself to a specific field though. I have a terminal case of "ooh, shiny" and a history of running off in another direction. Honest assessment says I'd probably change classes every level, or at least before every dead level. It's quite possible I overstated my Wisdom, though I do deserve the middle-aged point. I'm at least aware of my flaws now.


As to IQ/10. If that was accurate, I had a 17+ at 10yrs old. But I have enough other issues I have great difficultly applying it. So I don't have more than a couple skill points in anything. Of course 1pt and int bonus gets you pretty far in a lot of things, if your bonus is high enough.

[SirNibbles]

I'm assuming full RAW, including XP penalties for multiclassing (which is going to be a pain).

Starting out:

Human, Male
Age 21
Height 6' 0"
Weight 140 lbs
Lawful Neutral

Stats:
STR: 9
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 18
WIS: 16
CHA: 12

HP: 7

Starting Class: Expert 1

Class Skills: (40 skill points at first level = 4 in each skill)
Bluff
Gather Information
Hide
Knowledge (Architecture)
Listen
Move Silently
Perform (String Instruments)
Speak Language
Spot
Survival

Feats:
Class granted feats:
Weapon Proficiency x19 (Club, Dagger, Dart, Gauntlet, Heavy Crossbow, Heavy Mace, Javelin, Light Crossbow, Light Mace, Longspear, Morningstar, Punching Dagger, Quarterstaff, Shortspear, Sickle, Sling, Spear, Spiked Gauntlet, Unarmed Strike)
Armor Proficiency (Light)

Chosen feats (including Human bonus feat):
Skill Focus: Knowledge (Architecture)
Skill Focus: Perform (String Instruments)

Flaw: Murky-Eyed
Feat: Rapid Metabolism





The goal is to become immortal and unaging and then grow my power over time. This will be accomplished with Monk 17 (for Timeless Body) and Cloud Anchorite 10 (for Immortality of the Mountain). I have to reach Monk 17 within 14 years or I will take a permanent penalty to Str/Dex/Con. It shouldn't be too hard.

I'd use my skills to earn money playing the violin until I can afford gear to go adventuring and earn experience.

Semifinal build (Level 30, 465,000 EXP): Monk 19/Cloud Anchorite 10/Expert 1

(avoiding Monk 20 to not become an Outsider)

Final build (Level 168, 14,196,000 EXP): Monk 19/Expert 19/Rogue 20/Cleric 20/Wizard 20/Druid 20/Sorcerer 20/Swordsage 20/Cloud Anchorite 10

I'd add a bunch of Prestige Classes later in my eternal life. Of course, DCFS abuse to exchange all the granted Proficiency feats for useful feats, especially taking Improved Sneak Attack multiple times (since it stacks).

Once I am a perfect being, I will shape the world as I see fit with my power.

Stats:
STR: 20
DEX: 26
CON: 24
INT: 34
WIS: 32
CHA: 26

[Strigon]

Stats:
STR: 9
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 18
WIS: 16
CHA: 12



The goal is to become immortal and unaging and then grow my power over time. This will be accomplished with Monk 17 (for Timeless Body) and Cloud Anchorite 10 (for Immortality of the Mountain). I have to reach Monk 17 within 14 years or I will take a permanent penalty to Str/Dex/Con. It shouldn't be too hard.

I'd use my skills to earn money playing the violin until I can afford gear to go adventuring and earn experience.

Semifinal build (Level 30, 465,000 EXP): Monk 19/Cloud Anchorite 10/Expert 1

(avoiding Monk 20 to not become an Outsider)

Final build (Level 168, 14,196,000 EXP): Monk 19/Expert 19/Rogue 20/Cleric 20/Wizard 20/Druid 20/Sorcerer 20/Swordsage 20/Cloud Anchorite 10

If you really had 18 Int and 16 Wis, you'd know how terrible an idea Monk is.

[SirNibbles]

If you really had 18 Int and 16 Wis, you'd know how terrible an idea Monk is.

I know Monk is terrible but it fits my long-term goals and I like the flavour for Cloud Anchorite.

[Strigon]

I know Monk is terrible but it fits my long-term goals and I like the flavour for Cloud Anchorite.

Well, it might fit your long-term goals, but you'll have trouble achieving them on account of being a Monk.
It's not like Wizards have trouble achieving immortality, anyway

[SirNibbles]

You probably don't have a 17 intelligence. 14-15 is more realistic. Unless you've done some groundbreaking work in some scientific field, you can't really claim to have 16 or over. There's just not proof beyond, "I feel smart."

Also, int score isn't just IQ/10.

When rolling 4d6 (drop the lowest) for stats, the chance of rolling 18 (6, 6, 6, L) is 6/1296, or 0.46%. The chance of rolling 17 (6, 6, 5, L) is much greater, at 15/1296, or 1.16%. This represents the top 1.62% of the population. On a bell curve, the top 2.1% of the population are more than two standard deviations above the mean. This means it's reasonable that if you're in the top 2.1% of the population, you'd have 17-18 Int. Anything above an IQ of 130 would thus correspond to at least 17 starting Int. Not everyone has taken IQ tests and not all tests are equal, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. However, if you consistently test within the top percent, a base Int of 18 makes sense. If you're consistently in the 98th percentile, you would start with 17 Int.

It's not unreasonable at all for there to be quite a large number of people with high Int. Just as 18 Str doesn't mean you can lift a car over your head, 18 Int doesn't mean you're finding the cure for cancer.

[Virdish]

When rolling 4d6 (drop the lowest) for stats, the chance of rolling 18 (6, 6, 6, L) is 6/1296, or 0.46%. The chance of rolling 17 (6, 6, 5, L) is much greater, at 15/1296, or 1.16%. This represents the top 1.62% of the population. On a bell curve, the top 2.1% of the population are more than two standard deviations above the mean. This means it's reasonable that if you're in the top 2.1% of the population, you'd have 17-18 Int. Anything above an IQ of 130 would thus correspond to at least 17 starting Int. Not everyone has taken IQ tests and not all tests are equal, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. However, if you consistently test within the top percent, a base Int of 18 makes sense. If you're consistently in the 98th percentile, you would start with 17 Int.

It's not unreasonable at all for there to be quite a large number of people with high Int. Just as 18 Str doesn't mean you can lift a car over your head, 18 Int doesn't mean you're finding the cure for cancer.

It is also of interest to point out that after a certain IQ other factors have more to do with the success of an individual then IQ. For instance social skills and environmental factors. Some of our brightest minds may have lived poor lives because they were never given the opportunity to use their above average IQ.

[DracoknightZero]

Plus IQ is not even a reliable measure of intelligence so in the end its quite moot.

Hmm my stats would be in the way of:
Str: 9
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Int: 14
Wis: 15
Cha: 11

Somewhat average across the board.

[Eladrinblade]

If you really had 18 Int and 16 Wis, you'd know how terrible an idea Monk is.

Knowing does not equal caring.

[Mordaedil]

When rolling 4d6 (drop the lowest) for stats, the chance of rolling 18 (6, 6, 6, L) is 6/1296, or 0.46%. The chance of rolling 17 (6, 6, 5, L) is much greater, at 15/1296, or 1.16%. This represents the top 1.62% of the population. On a bell curve, the top 2.1% of the population are more than two standard deviations above the mean. This means it's reasonable that if you're in the top 2.1% of the population, you'd have 17-18 Int. Anything above an IQ of 130 would thus correspond to at least 17 starting Int. Not everyone has taken IQ tests and not all tests are equal, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. However, if you consistently test within the top percent, a base Int of 18 makes sense. If you're consistently in the 98th percentile, you would start with 17 Int.

It's not unreasonable at all for there to be quite a large number of people with high Int. Just as 18 Str doesn't mean you can lift a car over your head, 18 Int doesn't mean you're finding the cure for cancer.

That's just... Not right. At all.

[Strigon]

Knowing does not equal caring.

When it's literally your life on the line? Yes it does.
At least, when you have 16 Wisdom, it should.

[Vizzerdrix]

So would we get any say over our starting feats or not? Some of them could go a long way towards our survival.

[Red Fel]

So would we get any say over our starting feats or not? Some of them could go a long way towards our survival.

I'm pretty sure you've taken your starting feat by now. I know I have.

It was homebrew.

[FocusWolf413]

I'm pretty sure you've taken your starting feat by now. I know I have.

It was homebrew.

You took your starting feat centuries ago, Grandpa.

[Hecuba]

That's just... Not right. At all.

Setting aside the finicky elements of IQ, the underlying point still stands: 18 INT isn't Einstein. Heck - it most cases, it would be better to look at your high school valedictorian.

Even at 3d6 (which is probably appropriate, since we can't assume that all real life people are protagonists), 17-18 int comes out just a hair under 2% of the results. For most people, that means that you're probably looking at a handful of people in your high school/secondary school/what-have-you graduating class (though that sample size is a bit small to expect the distribution to have normalized for most people, and it might be only one if you went to a small school).


When it's literally your life on the line? Yes it does.
At least, when you have 16 Wisdom, it should.

If your goal is immortality for retirement, cloud anchorite is actually a good aim. And if you're not going to be aiming for at CR adventures, monk isn't a bad way to do it.

If I'm dumped in a D&D world, I'm not going to go adventuring if I can avoid it - at least not in any way that resembles a normal tabletop encounter. Adventuring is dangerous. Adventuring is deadly.

Monk actually has some useful passive defenses. Yes, those defenses are kinda grab-bag. The core issue that separates them from other non-casters is generally that they lack sufficient offensive capacity to end encounters. That becomes less of an issue if you deliberately select for encounters at the minimum available CR that gives you XP - which I am absolutely going to do in such a situation.

[GrayDeath]

We`re all Humans anyway (see the recruitment thread for this idea^^), so wouldn`t that be starting FeatS?

[digiman619]

We`re all Humans anyway (see the recruitment thread for this idea^^), so wouldn`t that be starting FeatS?

Speak for yourself; I am a Dwarf. If you could see me, you'd understand.

[Strigon]

If your goal is immortality for retirement, cloud anchorite is actually a good aim. And if you're not going to be aiming for at CR adventures, monk isn't a bad way to do it.

If I'm dumped in a D&D world, I'm not going to go adventuring if I can avoid it - at least not in any way that resembles a normal tabletop encounter. Adventuring is dangerous. Adventuring is deadly.

Monk actually has some useful passive defenses. Yes, those defenses are kinda grab-bag. The core issue that separates them from other non-casters is generally that they lack sufficient offensive capacity to end encounters. That becomes less of an issue if you deliberately select for encounters at the minimum available CR that gives you XP - which I am absolutely going to do in such a situation.

But being a Spellcaster is pretty much a straight upgrade.
Take Wizard, for example - assuming 18 Intelligence (which I still say is ridiculous, but it has become apparent that that's only due to different opinions on what that represents), you can cast level 9 spells by the time they're on the table. And you get tons of bonus spells per day. By the level you become immortal, a Wizard could have already achieved it, and they'd be more comfortable to boot - Prestidigitation, Unseen Servant, and the like would make modern amenities attainable.

Sure, you could buy at-will items of those as a monk, but that would be quite expensive, Wizards would be able to do it from the get-go, and Wizards are better at making money anyway. Plus, if you're going for immortality, eventually something bad will happen - that's just the way probabilities work. Whatever it is, a Wizard will be better prepared for it, what with contingent spells and the like.

I could maybe buy being a monk as good enough for most circumstances, but if you've got the ability to be an all-powerful Wizard, why not do so?

[SirNibbles]

I've just noticed something interesting: you won't die of starvation, thirst, or freezing (unless the temperature is below -20 F). All three of those deal non-lethal damage. Even if you were to starve and accumulate so much non-lethal damage damage that you passed out, you wouldn't die according to RAW. Someone could find your body after several years and nurse you back to health (though they would have to heal you quite a bit until you became conscious).

However, I would assume that we would ignore RAW in this case and assume you actually need food and water.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Environment

[Alent]

"You let me have one Wish to myself, the second Wish can be something you want, and then I'll Wish that you're transformed into the kind of genie that isn't forced to grant Wishes to whoever captures them."

Then you Wish for a Candle of Invocation, give them their Wish, free them from potentially eternal servitude with Polymorph Any Object, and ascend into infinity.

Personally, I was just going to take advantage of the fact Red Fel shows up when you say his name and ask a question about evil, and have him write up a contract that the cleric wouldn't get to read, that specifies all three wishes clearly in the contract, along with non-competing wish clauses, non-aggression clauses, non-disclosure agreements, and an EULA for the cleric and scrying observers. Wish #2 convinces the Genie: "grant the genie a 3 charge ring of three wishes for his own use, that may be used after my third wish." The last wish is my own 3 charge ring of three wishes, but before any of that is the all important wish #1 binds all parties including scrying observers to the terms and agreements of the contract, making all parties accepting the EULA believe I failed to convince it to grant me wishes.

Thing is, the more I thought about all the necessary clauses, the more I realized... being able to summon Red Fel by saying his name means he has the power of a level 20 truenamer, in which case, by the OP, he should have 20 levels in Truenamer. Doesn't Truenamer get at will gate at those levels? :smallbiggrin:

Man, Lawyer tier evil scares me. :smalleek:


But, let's talk modern transport.

If a 1st level item of Grease creates a millimeter thick layer of olive oil across 100 feet², and the fuel is exploited at 50% efficiency before vanishing in 6 seconds, it can output 17.8 megawatts. The Wright Flyer III was 780 pounds, and it used a 21 horsepower engine. If it had a Grease engine, and we ignored the aerodynamic effects of more mass/volume, it could lift about 890,000 pounds off the ground. You'll need better engineering/materials to make that work, or you could just lower the efficiency. Alternatively, you could make dirigibles.

Awesome, modern transport, I... wait... what? :smallconfused: What part of that paragraph has anything to do with modern transport?

I love Dirigibles, which is why I know they're a non-starter. Too much engineering is required, no, that doesn't even begin to cover it... An inappropriately large amount of physics and engineering is required given we're talking about a universe where Skies of Arcadia style flying boats are real. A dirigible is a kind of aircraft that crashes when there's too much ambient humidity or wind in a world where people can conjure ambient humidity and gale force winds in exchange for 10 minutes of kvetching to their god about the weather.

On the other end of the spectrum, why even mention the Wright Flyer III? Let's skip ahead some to things with actual cargo capacities that won't be mistaken for a poorly decorated flying carpet. The flight controls, pulleys and control surfaces of an airplane are easy to build. The skeleton is pretty straightforward and while we may not have the exact blueprints for some famous airplanes, we don't need to be limited by what works in real life, just get close enough- we have the ironwood spell, and fantasy metals available to us. It may seem like a ridiculous thought in this day and age where we have supersonic air superiority fighters that can do the Cobra and Tailslide thanks to an insane amount of applied physics, but the real reason that Airplanes beat out Dirigibles precisely because you can build an airplane incrementally, entirely by intuition and have it fly stable in bad weather. (My art tutor used to build RC gliders based entirely by eye- that was a joy to watch. :smallbiggrin: )

For power plant, it doesn't matter. It's D&D, everything we know about thermodynamics is wrong! Basic self-resetting dungeon traps are perpetual motion machines, and that's before we start doing stupid things like figuring out ways to make individual sections of the aircraft count as medium objects so they can be affected by self-resetting featherfall traps.


You'd also become a major target for assassins/kidnappers with patrons that feel threatened by your activities. Given the destabilizing effects of just 0th level spells on a pseudo-feudal society, it's likely this would apply to every power structure that isn't borderline egalitarian. Sure, commoners would probably be fanatical, but what about artisan guilds, landed gentry, egocentric mages, petty dragons, or meddling deities?

I don't think you're analyzing this correctly. D&D is a high magic world, they already have 0th level spells, all societies should be accustomed to having level 1~5 wizards, clerics, and druids around providing services. 0th level spells are not going to destabilize society by being more abundant, society will simply gain more purchasing power as you reduce the opportunity cost and thus scarcity of an already available resource. (Especially if the D&D world inherits pathfinder or 5th's "at will" upgrade to Cantrips)

Completely New technologies are what will destabilize things. but even then it will be highly specific what is affected. The trick is to be aware of what it will destabilize in advance. This is why Air Travel is great- it doesn't invalidate ground travel, it creates a new parallel market that only steals some of ground travel's work. IE - The opportunities outnumber the displacement by default. This is especially true in a universe where they already have a specific kind of air travel that is essentially at the highest level of scarcity- Sure a Wizard casting overland flight can carry enough enveloping pits to rival the cargo capacity of a C-5 Galaxy. Does a Wizard REALLY want to be a cargo plane? Nope. Does a wizard want to be a passenger plane? There is not enough DO NOT WANT meme in the world to answer that question.

Your patrons here are the real risk. They're the ones who're going to bear the brunt of your enemies' ire, and be wary of the influence you gain over their subordinates. Especially the influence you gain over their subordinates. The beauty of building an airplane is, once you've proven it works, your patrons will likely ask you to do the things you wanted to do anyway, and so if convenient you can make them think it was their idea. Also, generally be humble and make every effort to work with them. Depending on how feudal things are, they may start hinting that talent like yours belongs in the family... which is arguably a sign that assassins are on the way if you say no.


https://v.dreamwidth.org/6519265/1632907

Another big thing here is not maintaining exclusive monopolies. Letting your patron's rivals reasonably purchase the technology increases your wealth and then in turn empowers them to make wealth within their country/guild. They may be jealous, but they're reaping the benefits, too. Some will still be dangerous, but they will be economically dangerous first. Not sure what to suggest about the irate deities. We lack enough knowledge about the environs to make a proper prediction of them.

I also take it as a given that you should always leave "to whom it may concern" letters to various individuals containing instructions and reagents/components for actions to take upon your death. If kidnapped, you can negotiate with your kidnappers from a position of strength, knowing full well that they can't kill you without being slaughtered mercilessly by the shadow apocalypse, then have it be for nothing when you get resurrected afterwards.


Another note, I'm kind of surprised how little mention Overlord is getting, given that it's a series about this exact concept, writ large. I mean, the plot says that "MMO player wakes up to find himself as his MMO character in a high fantasy world," but looking at the series and the descriptions, it's more like "D&D player" and "D&D world."

Yeah, this is more or less the reason I referenced it and Isekai in general. Even the spells are the same as D&D. (At least up until SharknadoSharks Cyclone.) I can't think of a better example of post-ascension gameplay in fiction.

By the way, since you're a contract lawyer, is it asking for legal advice/professional services if I ask you for help on writing a Djinni planar services agreement? :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

I could maybe buy being a monk as good enough for most circumstances, but if you've got the ability to be an all-powerful Wizard, why not do so?

Because being a wizard is having a target on your back.

Roughly 1/3 of all wizards are evil (not necessarily you, obviously) and evil wizards are not unlikely to try and steal someone else's research or sabotage someone out of sheer jealousy.

Conquering forces quickly stomp out potential threats. If the settlement you've settled in is overrun you'll be lucky to get "serve us or die." If your luck has run out, they just send hitters to eliminate you.

Then there's the general distrust of those who don't understand magic for those that wield it. It's not a given that you'll be shunned by everyone but bet money that you'll be shunned by a sizable fraction. Once in a while, one of 'em will work up the nerve to act on that irrational fear/hatred.

Nobody gives a damn about some unspeakably old monk on the top of a mountain except the odd giant or dragon. If that happens, you can just move since you don't have to pack up a research lab or worry about the access point of your demiplane being occupied. Just go.

[Hecuba]

But being a Spellcaster is pretty much a straight upgrade.
Take Wizard, for example - assuming 18 Intelligence (which I still say is ridiculous, but it has become apparent that that's only due to different opinions on what that represents), you can cast level 9 spells by the time they're on the table. And you get tons of bonus spells per day. By the level you become immortal, a Wizard could have already achieved it, and they'd be more comfortable to boot - Prestidigitation, Unseen Servant, and the like would make modern amenities attainable.

Sure, you could buy at-will items of those as a monk, but that would be quite expensive, Wizards would be able to do it from the get-go, and Wizards are better at making money anyway. Plus, if you're going for immortality, eventually something bad will happen - that's just the way probabilities work. Whatever it is, a Wizard will be better prepared for it, what with contingent spells and the like.

I could maybe buy being a monk as good enough for most circumstances, but if you've got the ability to be an all-powerful Wizard, why not do so?

Perhaps because one doesn't want to particularly be all-powerful? Powerful people get roped into intrigue and draw the attention of other powerful beings (occasionally hostile).

Grandstanding aside, if I realistically assess what I would want out of life in a D&D world, it would be:

Immortality
Lots of books
To be safe and left alone unless I want to contact someone


Monk/CA works well enough for that, where as casters can cause some issues with 3 and requires methods on 1 that:

Are kind of icky to me (PAO stuff)
risk drawing attention from murder-hobos (anything requiring sacrifice)
require upkeep and have potential points of failure (clone shenanigans and the like)


That said, while I agree with SirNibbles in having CA as my preferred immortality option, I'm probably not going to take look for more than a dip in monk myself (might as well get some benefit from those first 9 levels of CA).
Assuming retraining is available to get rid of the expert levels I would presumably come in with, my goal would be Monk 1/Something 4/Chamelion 5/CA 10.

Maybe Survivor for the Something 4? Is there any other option with better always on defenses for a 4 level dip? It's not something I usually look for in actual builds.

Edit: You're right though - some magic would be very nice in the pursuit of creature comforts, if other needs are fulfilled. That's why Chameleon 5 is on my list. I do need magical wifi on my mountain, after all.

[Strigon]

See, both of your points seem to assume that being a Wizard means going out and doing world-shattering things, whereas being a monk allows you to sit at home in quiet.
This isn't true; a Wizard is just as capable of lying low. Arguably, more so, since they're more easily self-sufficient. Sure, as a Monk, you could live out your days in peace and quiet, but so could a Wizard. If you're that worried about it, you could easily pass yourself off as a monk with the right spells, and then if things go wrong you have the incalculable benefit of being a Wizard.

[danielxcutter]

See, both of your points seem to assume that being a Wizard means going out and doing world-shattering things, whereas being a monk allows you to sit at home in quiet.
This isn't true; a Wizard is just as capable of lying low. Arguably, more so, since they're more easily self-sufficient. Sure, as a Monk, you could live out your days in peace and quiet, but so could a Wizard. If you're that worried about it, you could easily pass yourself off as a monk with the right spells, and then if things go wrong you have the incalculable benefit of being a Wizard.

Or you know, you could be a Monk/Wizard/Enlightened Fist and be both. :smalltongue:

[Vizzerdrix]

I'm pretty sure you've taken your starting feat by now. I know I have.

It was homebrew.

Then remind me to retrain them at some point. Im rather sure I was made to take a garbage feat.

But I assume most everyone was planning on retraining.

[Kelb_Panthera]

See, both of your points seem to assume that being a Wizard means going out and doing world-shattering things, whereas being a monk allows you to sit at home in quiet.
This isn't true; a Wizard is just as capable of lying low. Arguably, more so, since they're more easily self-sufficient. Sure, as a Monk, you could live out your days in peace and quiet, but so could a Wizard. If you're that worried about it, you could easily pass yourself off as a monk with the right spells, and then if things go wrong you have the incalculable benefit of being a Wizard.

Major hurdle; magical research requires expensive components, presumably in substantial quantity given the scale of weeks of work to actually complete a round of it, and the need for a decently appointed lab to conduct said research.

Somewhat lesser hurdle; the spells you get from leveling up don't necessarily cover all of your needs.

Utterly insurmountable hurdle; you -will- lose your mind if you don't periodically interact with other people. This is an aspect of inescapable biology.

You can try to lay low but the necessities of being a wizard, nevermind just a human, will put you in public sometimes. Wizards standout in public, both by their countenance and by their purchases, far more so than do monks. The monk will have to come down from his mountain sometimes too but no one will notice or care.

[Strigon]

Major hurdle; magical research requires expensive components, presumably in substantial quantity given the scale of weeks of work to actually complete a round of it, and the need for a decently appointed lab to conduct said research.

Somewhat lesser hurdle; the spells you get from leveling up don't necessarily cover all of your needs.

Utterly insurmountable hurdle; you -will- lose your mind if you don't periodically interact with other people. This is an aspect of inescapable biology.

You can try to lay low but the necessities of being a wizard, nevermind just a human, will put you in public sometimes. Wizards standout in public, both by their countenance and by their purchases, far more so than do monks. The monk will have to come down from his mountain sometimes too but no one will notice or care.

By RAW, you just level up and learn spells. No need for any magical research, unless you want more spells or your own spells. But you can certainly live without those.

When you go out, just use a (mundane) disguise so you look inconspicuous. Getting a high enough check to fool anyone not specifically looking for you should be trivial.

What purchases are you talking about? Scrolls and magic items? Because if so, I'm thinking a Monk would want those, too.

[SirNibbles]

That said, while I agree with SirNibbles in having CA as my preferred immortality option, I'm probably not going to take look for more than a dip in monk myself (might as well get some benefit from those first 9 levels of CA).
Assuming retraining is available to get rid of the expert levels I would presumably come in with, my goal would be Monk 1/Something 4/Chamelion 5/CA 10.

Maybe Survivor for the Something 4? Is there any other option with better always on defenses for a 4 level dip? It's not something I usually look for in actual builds.

Edit: You're right though - some magic would be very nice in the pursuit of creature comforts, if other needs are fulfilled. That's why Chameleon 5 is on my list. I do need magical wifi on my mountain, after all.

Cloud Anchorite will stop you from dying but unless I'm mistaken, you will still age until you're venerable. This means you will lose 6 Str/Dex/Con as you go from middle-aged to venerable. Of course, there are other ways to get the benefits of Timeless Body without Monk 17.

[Kelb_Panthera]

By RAW, you just level up and learn spells. No need for any magical research, unless you want more spells or your own spells. But you can certainly live without those.

It's the "more" that will inevitably come about. You can live without any spells at all but you won't get very far, overall. If you're -not- concerned with getting all the necessary magics to live well and defend yourself, what was the point of going with wizard again?


When you go out, just use a (mundane) disguise so you look inconspicuous. Getting a high enough check to fool anyone not specifically looking for you should be trivial.

How much do you know about disguise? How much are you willing to learn? Without some investment, your disguises will be pierced regularly. Using magical ones will fool the plebs but may well draw the attention of just the kind of people you're trying to avoid.


What purchases are you talking about? Scrolls and magic items? Because if so, I'm thinking a Monk would want those, too.

Spell components; eschew materials doesn't eliminate them all and not every wizard takes it. Scrolls, wands, and staves aren't in common use by non-casters and even then are entirely the domain of skilled adventurers outside of that group. Beyond that, there's still the research materials and possibly the aid of other casters if you get stuck on something.

Remember that the rules are an abstraction that glosses over the minutia that aren't conducive to entertaining play. If you're actually there, you don't get to skip that stuff anymore.

[Strigon]

It's the "more" that will inevitably come about. You can live without any spells at all but you won't get very far, overall. If you're -not- concerned with getting all the necessary magics to live well and defend yourself, what was the point of going with wizard again?
I'd argue that a Wizard with no extra spells is still better than a Monk. Even if you need a couple, planning a way to do it discretely and infrequently enough to not draw attention shouldn't be a problem.



How much do you know about disguise? How much are you willing to learn? Without some investment, your disguises will be pierced regularly. Using magical ones will fool the plebs but may well draw the attention of just the kind of people you're trying to avoid.

Eagle's Splendour + Disguise Kit + Minor Details Only (You only have to look like not a Wizard) gives you +9 right off the bat. As a human with 18 Int, you can spare a handful of skill points on disguise. Besides, " If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), the DM can assume that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks."
Don't draw any attention to yourself and you don't even need any skill points, most of the time.



Spell components; eschew materials doesn't eliminate them all and not every wizard takes it. Scrolls, wands, and staves aren't in common use by non-casters and even then are entirely the domain of skilled adventurers outside of that group. Beyond that, there's still the research materials and possibly the aid of other casters if you get stuck on something.

Remember that the rules are an abstraction that glosses over the minutia that aren't conducive to entertaining play. If you're actually there, you don't get to skip that stuff anymore.

So you set up one bulk purchase that'll last you years.
By the time anyone powerful gets word of your existence - if that happens at all - you're just a guy who bought stuff once. No regular purchases, no way to track you.

[Red Fel]

Personally, I was just going to take advantage of the fact Red Fel shows up when you say his name and ask a question about evil, and have him write up a contract that the cleric wouldn't get to read, that specifies all three wishes clearly in the contract, along with non-competing wish clauses, non-aggression clauses, non-disclosure agreements, and an EULA for the cleric and scrying observers. Wish #2 convinces the Genie: "grant the genie a 3 charge ring of three wishes for his own use, that may be used after my third wish." The last wish is my own 3 charge ring of three wishes, but before any of that is the all important wish #1 binds all parties including scrying observers to the terms and agreements of the contract, making all parties accepting the EULA believe I failed to convince it to grant me wishes.

Thing is, the more I thought about all the necessary clauses, the more I realized... being able to summon Red Fel by saying his name means he has the power of a level 20 truenamer, in which case, by the OP, he should have 20 levels in Truenamer. Doesn't Truenamer get at will gate at those levels? :smallbiggrin:

Man, Lawyer tier evil scares me. :smalleek:

http://media.tumblr.com/52af8b9018f146d844e0b73b9a70535b/tumblr_inline_micgj4afwW1qzw4ui.gif

Funny thing is, out of all of the professions, skills, and educational backgrounds that could serve a person suddenly transported into a foreign culture, Profession (lawyer) is actually one of the most transferable (assuming a common language).

True story. Aside from the specifics of local law and custom, the practice of law is surprisingly universal, and has been in many significant ways (although not all ways) mostly unchanged over the course of centuries. The methods of researching the details of local law, to someone who doesn't use computerized research as a crutch, are pretty much the same anywhere you go - read the rules, read the cases, memorize what you can and get someone local to back you up. The rest - the formalities, the concepts, and so forth - is pretty similar.

My point is this. Assuming you speak the language, a modern-day engineer will need an industrial revolution in order to do his job in a D&D world. (Unless it's Eberron.) A modern-day scientist will have to struggle to teach the basics before he can do the kind of work to which he is accustomed. A web designer is toast. An architect is going to need to familiarize himself with dramatically different building materials and methods. But a lawyer is a lawyer is a lawyer.

And me? I'm a star.

http://i.pinger.pl/pgr465/854a6e1700178a574b49d394/gere.jpg

The biggest.
Also, yes, even in real life - absent the teleportation, of course - I know when people invoke me by name. And I've weaponized words. I'm as close to Truenamer as you can get. It's great.

By the way, since you're a contract lawyer, is it asking for legal advice/professional services if I ask you for help on writing a Djinni planar services agreement? :smallbiggrin:

To be fair, my license to practice law in the City of Brass is only valid on days beginning in "N," so I'd probably have to give you a referral. But I'm sure I know someone who owes me a favor...

[Vizzerdrix]

Red Fel, didnt legal disputes get settled by combat with unweildy, spiked, two handed shields?

[The Great Wyrm]

Let's see:

IRL I'm a chemistry/biochemistry student in college (third year, started at age 16). I did fencing (epee) in high school, and was the team captain, but stopped in college since I needed to focus on academics.

Stats:
Str 8
(I can lift about 80 pounds over my head. If I regularly worked out this would probably increase).
Dex 12
(I was a decent fencer, and qualified for Junior Olympics, though I didn't do very well in them.)
Con 10
(I don't notice myself as being any more or less healthy than my peers. If I really wanted to, I could try swimming underwater, and having someone measure the time until I pass out. But I don't want to do this.)
Int 18
(I was high school valedictorian, and National Merit scholar. I currently have a 4.0 GPA in college.)
Wis 10
(I don't notice myself as being any more or less "wise" than my peers. I don't do stupid stuff, but neither do people ask me for advice.)
Cha 8
(I am introverted and reclusive.)

Class: Expert if NPC, Artificer, Factotum, or Wizard if PC
Level: 1 or 2 (I'm still pretty young)
Skills:
Max ranks: Craft(alchemy), Knowledge(architecture and engineering), Knowledge(nature)
Non-maxed skills: Knowledge(local), Knowledge(geography), Concentration, Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Heal, Survival (other ones)

Feats:
Skill Focus (Craft(alchemy)), (can't think of other one)

Weapon proficiency: Rapier (probably, I know it's not the same as epee but I'd probably figure it out quickly)

What I would do in D&D:
Figure out how to make the Philosopher's Stone, and/or the Elixir of Life

[SirNibbles]

I'd argue that a Wizard with no extra spells is still better than a Monk. Even if you need a couple, planning a way to do it discretely and infrequently enough to not draw attention shouldn't be a problem.


Eagle's Splendour + Disguise Kit + Minor Details Only (You only have to look like not a Wizard) gives you +9 right off the bat. As a human with 18 Int, you can spare a handful of skill points on disguise. Besides, " If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), the DM can assume that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks."
Don't draw any attention to yourself and you don't even need any skill points, most of the time.



So you set up one bulk purchase that'll last you years.
By the time anyone powerful gets word of your existence - if that happens at all - you're just a guy who bought stuff once. No regular purchases, no way to track you.

I think it comes down to personal preference. In an immersive game of D&D, you should be playing your character and not your character sheet.

In this situation, we would definitely be playing our characters and not our sheets. I like the idea of living a peaceful life in the mountains with clean air and beautiful scenery and a calm mind. I think many people would enjoy playing characters that would be considered less powerful because they have to live as their characters every second of every day- they don't get to go home between sessions.