Anyone else not "get" love for Minsk?

[kraftcheese]

I missed out on the Baldurs Gate games when they came out; I was a bit too young and didn't even know what D&D was at the time.

But I've been playing them finally, and I just don't find the whole Minsk and Boo shtick very funny; he just seems like every other Big Friendly Bruiser character in everything else.

Am I missing the humor because it's been done to death these days? (I think they call it The Seinfeld Problem)

EDIT: I checked TVTropes and it appears to be "The Seinfeld Effect".

[Kish]

Indeed, I have no particular fondness (though no particular unfondness either) for Minsk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk), probably because I've never been there.

Minsc, the Baldur's Gate character, on the other hand...no, I can't relate there at all.

[Closet_Skeleton]

He's not fondly remembered for being amazingly hilarious. He's just kind of charming without getting too annoying. He's fondly remembered for being memorable.

Like everything except for some of the wilderness maps he's also a lot better in the second game.

[GloatingSwine]

He's not fondly remembered for being amazingly hilarious. He's just kind of charming without getting too annoying. He's fondly remembered for being memorable.


Also for being able to carry lots of your ****.

[Lord Torath]

In the original Baldur's Gate, I found him to be one of the few NPCs who wasn't obnoxiously annoying. Xar was gibbering in insanity, Khalid was gibbering in terror, the elf mage at the end of the mines was depressed, the paladin to the north was annoying. Minsc was the best of the bunch. He was nice, friendly, undeniably Good, and just fun to have in your party.

"Magic is impressive. But now, Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!"

[danzibr]

I liked Minsc and Boo. He's buff and tatted and a little crazy, Boo is cute. And he's a Ranger that can rage. I didn't use him on every playthrough, but definitely fond of him.

[GungHo]

I think a lot of it was that gaming was going through a grim phase and everything was taking itself very seriously. Minsc was a well-written, earnest comic relief character in a time where well-written comic relief was simply not that common. Fallout 1 had just come out the year before, and Fallout 2 was coming out that year. Beyond that, you had Psycho Mantis in Metal Gear Solid, and that was about it.

[Cheesegear]

I missed out on the Baldurs Gate games when they came out; I was a bit too young...

When I first played BG, I was 11. I thought Minsc was great. I only recently played BG again ~20 years later. Minsc is not as good as I remember.
Everything is hilarious when you're 11 (See; YouTube Metrics).

[The_Jackal]

1998 (the year Baldur's Gate was released) was a seminal year in computer gaming. Computers were reaching levels of power, sophistication and accessibility which could support good voice acting, decent quality graphics, and offer developers the chance to not just offer gameplay, but also tell a story. Just a few years before, audio in games was limited to bleeps and squawks, with text underwritten to convey meaning. Not just coincidentally, it's also the year Half-Life came out. Thief came out introducing a now staple of the action game genre: Stealth.

That's why Minsc is remembered fondly: He's one of the first, if not THE first memorable character from a good computer RPG.

[Psyren]

1998 (the year Baldur's Gate was released) was a seminal year in computer gaming. Computers were reaching levels of power, sophistication and accessibility which could support good voice acting, decent quality graphics, and offer developers the chance to not just offer gameplay, but also tell a story. Just a few years before, audio in games was limited to bleeps and squawks, with text underwritten to convey meaning. Not just coincidentally, it's also the year Half-Life came out. Thief came out introducing a now staple of the action game genre: Stealth.

That's why Minsc is remembered fondly: He's one of the first, if not THE first memorable character from a good computer RPG.

Well said.

You have to remember, Minsc is popular not just due to the character himself or even the quality of his game (though both of those are understandably great, because Baldurs Gate) - but also due to the landscape of PC gaming as a whole at that time, and CRPGs in particular.

I mean, look at what else was out that year. Return to Krondor? Elder Scrolls: Redguard? Might & Magic VI? Lands of Lore III? Generic fantasy sequel after generic fantasy sequel, none of which are remembered all that fondly outside very niche audiences.

The one other big breakout new RPG IP that year was none other than Diablo itself, and (a) that game had memorable characters too (the Tristram townsfolk are memetic to this day (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vlTE6hBm7s)), and (b) this is despite having nowhere near the depth of plot that BG had. (To paraphrase Yahtzee reviewing a spiritually similar title, the story of Diablo - especially the original - can be summed up as "Demons over there, KILL THEY ASS").

So yes, of course Minsc is memorable compared to the cavalcade of RPG mediocrity we had to suffer through that year (again, Diablo excluded, though even that was pretty deficient in the plot department.)

[factotum]

I think he was probably one of the first fully voiced characters in a game, too, at least if you had the CD-ROM edition. However, I have to disagree with m'learned colleague when he says Might and Magic VI was a generic fantasy sequel--it, and its two sequels, were a massive leap ahead compared to MM5, and as for it being generic fantasy, I must have missed the bit in LOTR where Aragorn shot a dragon out of the sky using a blaster. :smallsmile:

[RayGallade]

As someone who grew up hearing his dad talk about Baldur's Gate (though most of it involved hating Paladins since his first character fell upon recruiting Montaron and Xzar), I heard occasionally about Minsc and Boo. Not all that much, but I knew of the names. Never did get to play the original though, since we had borrowed the floppies from a friend. Icewind Dale was fun though.

Now that I am in the process of playing through the EE, I must say he has lived up to the hype for me. Something about him being a ranger with a hamster and his personality have won me over.

I was also surprised to learn BG came out in '98. For some reason, whenever my dad talks about it I think of him playing it in college, not a few years after I was born.

[danzibr]

They were on CD's (4 iirc), not floppies.

[Psyren]

I think he was probably one of the first fully voiced characters in a game, too, at least if you had the CD-ROM edition. However, I have to disagree with m'learned colleague when he says Might and Magic VI was a generic fantasy sequel--it, and its two sequels, were a massive leap ahead compared to MM5, and as for it being generic fantasy, I must have missed the bit in LOTR where Aragorn shot a dragon out of the sky using a blaster. :smallsmile:

I'm sure to their audience, the M&M games hold fond memories, and I don't mean to diminish that. But the reality is, if you compare them to BG, Diablo, or even the breakout title from their own universe (HoMM3), the cultural ubiquity and name recognition don't even come close.

Whether Minsc helped engender that or whether he merely benefited from it is difficult to say, but as it stands, he himself is nearly as iconic as the game he came from (as evidenced by the existence of this very thread).

[GloatingSwine]

I mean, look at what else was out that year. Return to Krondor? Elder Scrolls: Redguard? Might & Magic VI? Lands of Lore III? Generic fantasy sequel after generic fantasy sequel, none of which are remembered all that fondly outside very niche audiences.


Final Fantasy VII?

The PC port came out within a couple of months of Baldur's Gate.



Minsc also had a really good vocal performance as well. Baldur's Gate was one of the first games to use actual professional voice actors not just whatever randos would come in off the street for a free coffee and a sandwich. Minsc is voiced by Jim Cummings, one of the most prolific voice actors of all time.

[Kish]

As someone who grew up hearing his dad talk about Baldur's Gate (though most of it involved hating Paladins since his first character fell upon recruiting Montaron and Xzar),
...Paladins never fell for recruiting evil characters in Baldur's Gate. They only Fell for letting their reputation reach 6, and Montaron and Xzar don't directly affect reputation.

[The_Jackal]

Minsc is voiced by Jim Cummings, one of the most prolific voice actors of all time.

I immediately recognized him as the voice of Heimskr, the preacher of Talos in Whiterun (Skyrim), though he does a few other voices in that title.

[danzibr]

Minsc also had a really good vocal performance as well. Baldur's Gate was one of the first games to use actual professional voice actors not just whatever randos would come in off the street for a free coffee and a sandwich. Minsc is voiced by Jim Cummings, one of the most prolific voice actors of all time.
Funny thing, I didn't make the connection until earlier today. Like, in my head I could hear his voice (Minsc's, that is), then I realized hey that's the mega famous dude that does Pete from Mickey Mouse, Chef Gisphetti from Curious George, et cetera, et cetera.

[Squark]

...Paladins never fell for recruiting evil characters in Baldur's Gate. They only Fell for letting their reputation reach 6, and Montaron and Xzar don't directly affect reputation.

Perhaps he's thinking of Viconia?

[Kish]

Viconia would take a starting, did nothing good yet paladin's reputation from 12 to 10. Something else was going on there.

[wumpus]

The scary thing was that I looked through the whole list and couldn't remember any character from Baldur's Gate (1) who wasn't in Baldur's Gate 2 (if you count Xzar, but he only lasted in my party until I recruited *anyone* else so I could kick them out. So the amount of time I saw him in BG2 wasn't all that much more than in BG1).

Minsc was memorable and worth taking along as a character (regardless of his stats. I'm not sure I ever bothered to enrage him). I might have also wanted Iomen around. The other icons looked familiar, but I can't be sure (other than Dynaheir, but I largely know I had her because I had Minsc).

[Knaight]

WYou have to remember, Minsc is popular not just due to the character himself or even the quality of his game (though both of those are understandably great, because Baldurs Gate) - but also due to the landscape of PC gaming as a whole at that time, and CRPGs in particular.

I mean, look at what else was out that year. Return to Krondor? Elder Scrolls: Redguard? Might & Magic VI? Lands of Lore III? Generic fantasy sequel after generic fantasy sequel, none of which are remembered all that fondly outside very niche audiences.

Baldurs Gate is no less niche than Might & Magic, and when it comes to being generic fantasy just about any D&D game is a textbook example (with the possible exception of Planescape: Torment).

[RayGallade]

Viconia would take a starting, did nothing good yet paladin's reputation from 12 to 10. Something else was going on there.

Like I mentioned, this is all secondhand knowledge. Having only recently picked up the game, I'm not quite sure what happened with his character other than that he fell.

[Keltest]

Like I mentioned, this is all secondhand knowledge. Having only recently picked up the game, I'm not quite sure what happened with his character other than that he fell.

He might have picked a fight with an innocent after accidentally stealing something. That nets a pretty immediate -6 to reputation IIRC.

[Kish]

"Accidentally stealing something"...yeah, I suspect that's how he'd describe what happened.

"First I recruited Montaron and Xzar. Then my hand found its way into this merchant's pocket through no fault of my own, and of course when they called for the guards I had to cut them in half, and next thing I knew I'd Fallen, all because I recruited Montaron and Xzar. Paladins are so badly designed!"

[factotum]

The odd thing is, by RAW (in 3rd edition, anyway, not sure about earlier ones) a Paladin *would* fall for recruiting Montaron and Xzar. The two of them are so cartoonishly evil they might as well be wearing "I'm with Evil" t-shirts, and a paladin knowingly associating with Evil characters will Fall. :smallwink:

[Triaxx]

Part of Mind's charm is the sheer absurdity of his claim that Boo is a Miniature Giant Space Hamster. It sounds completely insane and thus made up for the game. But it does actually predate the game.

Another part is his unrelenting cheerfulness. In the face of danger to make Paladin's soil themselves, Minsc decides to give it a whack upside the head with a sword to see how that works. While the current trend is to have companions agonize over every little thing, Minsc was assured not to interrupt the fighting with a moral quandary. He was always too busy wading through the enemy.

Moreover, he was always unfailingly loyal. (Alignment not withstanding.) Working with vampires? He wasn't happy, but he wouldn't abandon you. Saemon Havarian again? He'd help, if only for another chance at yon pirate. Through the gates of hell? Minsc will kick in the gates for you. Heading to an eternal abyss? Hold on tight Boo.

Plus he was amusing, in a way none of the other characters you could add to your party were. One or two would make a crack or two, while Minsc managed to be funny almost by accident. He had a line about safety in numbers, that I never heard until EE, but when he said it the first time, we'd just been ambushed during travel. RNG or not, I laughed harder than I should have.

[factotum]

He had a line about safety in numbers, that I never heard until EE

Would that be "There is safety in numbers, and I am two or three at least"? :smallwink:

[Triaxx]

That's the one. I don't ever recall hearing it in the original, or even in Trilogy.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, that was definitely an original Minsc line.

[Kish]

BG1: Rare lines are designed as easter eggs. You only hear them if you click on the same NPC 12 times without telling them to do anything. As a result, they're all humorous and include fourth-wall breakages the game designers wouldn't have wanted to put in the characters' "you will actually hear this regularly" lines. For example, Edwin has, "I don't understand this 'mouse magic' that makes me do your bidding!"
BG2: Rare lines are things that show up rarely, but also randomly. They don't feature the same kind of fourth-wall breaks.
BG1 Enhanced Edition: All the same rare lines in BG1 are there, but in BG2 style; they show up randomly, suddenly blasting holes in the fourth wall, not limited to when the player specifically clicks on the NPC over and over to hear them.

[danzibr]

Would that be "There is safety in numbers, and I am two or three at least"? :smallwink:

That's the one. I don't ever recall hearing it in the original, or even in Trilogy.
Huh... I played an awful lot of BG1 and 2 (and ToB), and I too never heard that.

BG1: Rare lines are designed as easter eggs. You only hear them if you click on the same NPC 12 times without telling them to do anything. As a result, they're all humorous and include fourth-wall breakages the game designers wouldn't have wanted to put in the characters' "you will actually hear this regularly" lines. For example, Edwin has, "I don't understand this 'mouse magic' that makes me do your bidding!"
BG2: Rare lines are things that show up rarely, but also randomly. They don't feature the same kind of fourth-wall breaks.
BG1 Enhanced Edition: All the same rare lines in BG1 are there, but in BG2 style; they show up randomly, suddenly blasting holes in the fourth wall, not limited to when the player specifically clicks on the NPC over and over to hear them.
Ahhhh, I see.

[Triaxx]

Xzar got one of the best, with: "Stop Poking ME!"

That explains quite a lot. But yeah, Minsc can be annoying in some respects, but I personally find his positives outweigh the negatives.

[Keltest]

"Yes, oh omnipresent authority figure?"

my favorite sass line in the game.

[Psyren]

Baldurs Gate is no less niche than Might & Magic, and when it comes to being generic fantasy just about any D&D game is a textbook example (with the possible exception of Planescape: Torment).

BG is by far more iconic/less niche than M&M, to the point of even being referenced in non-gaming publications. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2016/08/24/obsidians-tyranny-is-an-rpg-that-invites-you-to-play-it-more-than-once/)


Final Fantasy VII?

The PC port came out within a couple of months of Baldur's Gate.

That game's popularity was driven almost entirely by the Playstation. (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/756/final-fantasy-vii/) On PC it sold next to nothing. (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/12389/final-fantasy-vii/)

[Inarius]

Honestly the sales of FF7 being so low for PC are probably in part because before it was even released they mentioned that FF7 is getting a complete remake. On top of that its only been out for a short period and it hasn't even had a steam sale discount yet that I've noticed.

[factotum]

Steamspy reckons that FF7 has sold over a million units, and it's usually pretty accurate in this regard:

http://steamspy.com/app/39140

[GloatingSwine]

Honestly the sales of FF7 being so low for PC are probably in part because before it was even released they mentioned that FF7 is getting a complete remake. On top of that its only been out for a short period and it hasn't even had a steam sale discount yet that I've noticed.

The original PC port of FF7 had the slight downside of running on approximately three hardware configurations ever. This was before the days of wide compatibility of especially 3D hardware. If you weren't running Windows 98 and certain specific graphics cards, you weren't running that game.

The low sales of that specific port are not relevant to the argument though. FF7 is another computer RPG which came out on PC in 1998 (though the PS1 version was obviously the previous year), which was not a generic fantasy and has memorable characters.

[Winthur]

BG is by far more iconic/less niche than M&M, to the point of even being referenced in non-gaming publications. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2016/08/24/obsidians-tyranny-is-an-rpg-that-invites-you-to-play-it-more-than-once/)


Forbes has had a gaming column since forever, and it gained some more notoriety with writers like Erik Kain. Not to mention that the article is about Tyranny, an Obsidian RPG that, just like its precedessor, Pillars of Eternity, is, through and through, a Baldur's Gate inspired game, and the creators aren't exactly making that sentiment particularly obfuscated.

Furthermore, you are saying it like the late 90s were bad for RPGs or something. '98 also had Fallout 2 after the undeniable success of Fallout 1 (which, at the time, spawned massive notoriety for Black Isle - de facto co-creators of BG, given their billing in the credits). I wouldn't chalk up BG being of outstanding quality in comparison to other RPGs of the time, it's certainly on par with "generic" M&M6 (which had the strength of being tied up to its own, original setting instead of relying on Forgotten Realms assets, as well as featuring blasters and spaceships, which, given usual fantasy, certainly isn't generic at all), both in worldbuilding and quality of gameplay. Might & Magic 6 also got 9s across the board in reviews. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_and_Magic_VI:_The_Mandate_of_Heaven#Receptio n)

I would say that Minsc's popularity simply stems from the fact that he's one of the first few fully voiced video game characters, with their own personality, in a massive, well-marketed (so well-marketed that CGW, who featured BG front, back and center in one of their '98 issues, kicked out its chief RPG grognard, Scorpia, when she wrote BG a bad review, and had the editorial staff assign a high grade to the game, giving a jarring result of a 4/5 star rating on a game that was "just an average RPG"), robust game. But it's not like Minsc's name is as easily recognizable as Mario, or even the Power Armor from Fallout. Or even Duke Nukem. Certainly not to non-gamers.


Ironically, it's Fallout 3, a very divisive game within its fanbase, that had enough notoriety to be namedropped on Ellen (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x91f9g_matthew-perry-fallout-3_videogames) by a popular actor - in spite of it being a "generic rehash of a popular IP", and even people who weren't die hard No Mutants Allowed members would call it "Oblivion with guns".

Minsc just so happens to be a quirky character with an interesting backstory that's backed up by great voice-acting in a game that was very popular. He also is one of the NPCs you happen to meet on your way pretty easily, has great stats to boot, and shows up in the sequel prominently. I would actually chalk up Minsc's popularity more to BG2, where he was a starting companion and his entree was way, way more wacky.

I mean, hell, I could make a topic like "Anyone else not get love for Alyx Vance", because I find her a really annoying device to drag out levels forever because my theoretical physicist can't figure out doors and buttons, but I do know that she's a milestone when it comes to companions and NPCs, and she really shows off the facial physics of the Source engine.

EDIT: On that note, many publications specifically praise the Infinity Engine, so a lot of BG's popularity might simply be owed to the fact that it eschewed the clunky-looking environments of western blobbers and turn-based tactical games for nice, hand-drawn portraits and environments, real-time gameplay, and an overall friendlier looking interface. So, once again, popular games fielded by great engine work, like it happened with DN3D and the Build engine, Doom's entire engine, Half-Life and Half-Life 2's engine... Infinity Engine spawned quite a few RPGs, after all, and now it's being emulated by new games.

[Psyren]

Forbes has had a gaming column since forever, and it gained some more notoriety with writers like Erik Kain. Not to mention that the article is about Tyranny, an Obsidian RPG that, just like its precedessor, Pillars of Eternity, is, through and through, a Baldur's Gate inspired game, and the creators aren't exactly making that sentiment particularly obfuscated.

There are articles that reference BG more (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2015/07/10/somehow-a-new-baldurs-gate-game-isnt-that-exciting/#3521e95420e9) directly (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/08/30/baldurs-gate-developer-says-industry-dumbs-games-down-underestimates-gamers/#72b87f0a70d1) if you wish. I just grabbed the first one I saw.



Furthermore, you are saying it like the late 90s were bad for RPGs or something.

Given that BG is routinely credited (http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/540/540115p3.html) for saving the entire genre (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4066/game_design_essentials_20_rpgs.php?page=10), I'll go ahead and stand by this assessment, yes.


Might & Magic 6 also got 9s across the board in reviews. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_and_Magic_VI:_The_Mandate_of_Heaven#Receptio n)

Unfortunately, reviews have nothing to do with how iconic a title is. What matters is its cultural appeal outside of its niche audience. Games like Doom, Quake and Half-Life are iconic, while games like Prey and Blake Stone are not. Again, Might & Magic is a solid series. But to compare it to the likes of BG, or Ultima, or Fallout in terms of impact to gaming culture or the medium as a whole seems misguided. M&M6 did what it set out to do well, but did not really move the needle or push the envelope for fantasy RPGs either. Minsc meanwhile, was in a title that did.


Steamspy reckons that FF7 has sold over a million units, and it's usually pretty accurate in this regard:

http://steamspy.com/app/39140

Well duh, of course it's selling like hotcakes now. It's become a classic due to its widespread adoption on the PS1 and nostalgia dollars - dollars which are pretty easy to justify whenever there's a Steam sale. But back when it first came out on PC and required 7 CD-ROMs to play, next to nobody was buying it.

[Knaight]

There are articles that reference BG more (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2015/07/10/somehow-a-new-baldurs-gate-game-isnt-that-exciting/#3521e95420e9) directly (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/08/30/baldurs-gate-developer-says-industry-dumbs-games-down-underestimates-gamers/#72b87f0a70d1) if you wish. I just grabbed the first one I saw.

It's not a gaming publication, but it is consistently the entertainment section of a publication pulling from videogame writers, and in one of those cases it's only referenced in the sense of listing the previous work of the person who's current work is being looked at. That's not indicative of it being well known outside of niche circles, whereas for something like D&D it's pretty easy to find references all over the place (usually as a marker for a character being a nerd, right alongside Star Trek).

[Psyren]

It's not a gaming publication, but it is consistently the entertainment section of a publication pulling from videogame writers, and in one of those cases it's only referenced in the sense of listing the previous work of the person who's current work is being looked at. That's not indicative of it being well known outside of niche circles, whereas for something like D&D it's pretty easy to find references all over the place (usually as a marker for a character being a nerd, right alongside Star Trek).

That doesn't change the fact that Might & Magic is more niche, even if you consider the entertainment section to be a "gaming publication." In one of the few articles I can find that mentions M&M at all, the author admits that "he doesn't think anyone has played it." (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/03/20/why-puzzles-and-exploration-should-drive-story-telling-in-role-playing-video-games-not-just-quests/#127796676d28) Nobody in their right mind would say that about Baldur's Gate or Ultima.

[GloatingSwine]

But back when it first came out on PC and required 7 CD-ROMs to play, next to nobody was buying it.

Still only 3. Same as the Playstation version.

Two less than Baldur's Gate.

[factotum]

Still only 3. Same as the Playstation version.

Two less than Baldur's Gate.

Wasn't BG six CDs? Or was that Planescape: Torment? Sure I remember playing one of those Infinity Engine games that came on six CDs.

[Anonymouswizard]

Wasn't BG six CDs? Or was that Planescape: Torment? Sure I remember playing one of those Infinity Engine games that came on six CDs.

BG was five CDs, plus one for Tales of the Sword Coast.

Baldur's Gate was the first computer game I ever played, although it took me finding the game again a few years ago to actually get far enough to find Minsc, so I was used to voice acting and more developed characters, and Minsc was still fun.

Not only was he good enough for me to want him in the party, but he had a personality I see so rarely in CRPGs. Plus he always made me chuckle. Was he hilarious? No, but he's hammy and the lines are well written, which is all I need.

[Cespenar]

Funny OP. Next thing you'll say that Irenicus's voice acting is overrated as well. And then where would we be?

[Winthur]

There are articles that reference BG more (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2015/07/10/somehow-a-new-baldurs-gate-game-isnt-that-exciting/#3521e95420e9) directly (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/08/30/baldurs-gate-developer-says-industry-dumbs-games-down-underestimates-gamers/#72b87f0a70d1) if you wish. I just grabbed the first one I saw.

This is still Forbes' gaming column. I don't understand what you're getting at; it's not a "non-gaming publication" if it's specifically their video game expert writing about video games.


Given that BG is routinely credited (http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/540/540115p3.html) for saving the entire genre (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4066/game_design_essentials_20_rpgs.php?page=10), I'll go ahead and stand by this assessment, yes.

Both publications specifically emphasize the role of Baldur's Gate as a D&D adaptation, and there have been trashheaps like Ultima 9 and Descent to Undermountain in the late 90s, but I wouldn't say the late 90s were dreadful for RPGs as a whole. Even some darlings of the further, concurrent years, like Wizardry 8 or Gothic (which is straight up "What if Ultima 9 was good"), don't have that much in common with Baldur's Gate, so I wouldn't solely attribute BG with revitalizing the genre entirely. Remember, Fallout was released by Interplay a year earlier, and apparently was good enough to warrant a quick sequel with the designers given free reign to do whatever the hell they want.




Unfortunately, reviews have nothing to do with how iconic a title is. What matters is its cultural appeal outside of its niche audience. Games like Doom, Quake and Half-Life are iconic, while games like Prey and Blake Stone are not. Again, Might & Magic is a solid series. But to compare it to the likes of BG, or Ultima, or Fallout in terms of impact to gaming culture or the medium as a whole seems misguided.
Might & Magic spawned an entire franchise of at least 4 different spinoffs (Crusaders, Legends, Dark Messiah, Heroes of...) and has an extreme cult in quite a few regions of the world that I would not marginalize. The mainline series spawned 9 games before it died, and yet, when it seemed to be over, it was still briefly revived with a 10th game that even tried to go back to the MM3-5 mechanics. It certainly deserves its status more than Ultima, which has become way more obscure nowadays. Nobody who only cares about "iconic" games recognizes Ultima at all. Even its pioneership in focus on storytelling will be nowadays more recognized in games like Fallout or Baldur's Gate. That nobody tried to make a game quite like Ultima 4 ever since its release, while dungeon crawlers and blobbers at least still have their niche, should mean something.

Ultima's focus on impeccable world-building and focus on characters was replicated in Baldur's Gate and Fallout... and those are the games that are actually recognized for the trend. Ultima is like Wolfenstein 3D in the world where the term "First Person Shooter" is still not invented, we use "Doom-likes" instead.

Even for Ultima Online: World of Warcraft was the defining MMO for many people, and UO-derivatives like Tibia or Runescape captured the hearts of millenials otherwise.

[Pronounceable]

Next thing you'll say that Irenicus's voice acting is overrated as well.
Nah, nobody will say that in the history of ever. David Werner took your regular, boring, runofthemill evil wizard who wants to be a god and made him one of the most memorable vidyagame badguys. If you or me had voiced Irenicus, he'd be just an ordinary mad wizard endboss in a regular DnD campaign.

As for Minsc, I don't like him much but he's the breakout npc in the breakout crpg of computer games. He's so breakout he's getting top billing in Wizards' marketing efforts since 5e, probably became the 3rd biggest name from Faerun after Elmo and Drizzle by now.

[factotum]

It certainly deserves its status more than Ultima, which has become way more obscure nowadays. Nobody who only cares about "iconic" games recognizes Ultima at all.

I'm not convinced about that, but thinking back on it, Ultima didn't really have a big window where it could be really good. The world building in Ultima 4 and 5 was certainly second to none, but the graphics were atrocious. Ultima VI improved the graphics somewhat but messed up the UI, Ultima VIII...I'll just say "instant death jumping puzzle" and leave it at that (anyone who's played the game will know what I mean), and U9 was dreadful in every meaningful way. So, I'd say the only one in the series that really hit the worldbuilding, graphics *and* playability aspects simultaneously was U7, and that wouldn't run on half the PCs around at the time due to using a really crappy memory manager.

Might and Magic, on the other hand, had three pretty good games (6, 7, and 8) to cement itself in popular memory. Speaking personally, though, the main reason I think Baldur's Gate has not stuck in my memory in the same way that MM did was because it used the D&D rules system, and those frankly weren't very good at the time. Planescape: Torment was truly excellent largely because it dumped most of the D&D ruleset and went its own way--it's the only Infinity Engine game I would happily play today.

[Gnoman]

I'm not convinced about that, but thinking back on it, Ultima didn't really have a big window where it could be really good. The world building in Ultima 4 and 5 was certainly second to none, but the graphics were atrocious. Ultima VI improved the graphics somewhat but messed up the UI, Ultima VIII...I'll just say "instant death jumping puzzle" and leave it at that (anyone who's played the game will know what I mean), and U9 was dreadful in every meaningful way. So, I'd say the only one in the series that really hit the worldbuilding, graphics *and* playability aspects simultaneously was U7, and that wouldn't run on half the PCs around at the time due to using a really crappy memory manager.

Ultima IV and V had excellent graphics for their day, unless you were playing on a C64 or Apple ][ (which were wholly obsolete platforms by this point), in which case they were merely passable. Might and Magic Book I looked much worse on every platform where both games were available. You also left out the original three games, of which I and III were genre-defining (II sucked). Ultima VI's "bad" interface was mostly a problem for series veterans - by any other standard it was years ahead of anybody else.

[GloatingSwine]

Nobody who only cares about "iconic" games recognizes Ultima at all. Even its pioneership in focus on storytelling will be nowadays more recognized in games like Fallout or Baldur's Gate. That nobody tried to make a game quite like Ultima 4 ever since its release, while dungeon crawlers and blobbers at least still have their niche, should mean something.

That's because after Ultima 8 and 9 nobody wants to remember Ultima.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I will say that before coming to these forums I had vaguely heard of Might and Magic, and never even a little bit of Ultima. Baldurs Gate I might have even known was an RPG. They really didn't penetrate larger society that much...

[Psyren]

This is still Forbes' gaming column. I don't understand what you're getting at; it's not a "non-gaming publication" if it's specifically their video game expert writing about video games.

What I'm getting at is simple. How many times has their gaming column referenced Might & Magic? If even the "gaming publication" section of their non-gaming publication barely considers the series worthy of note, that speaks volumes about its status.



Both publications specifically emphasize the role of Baldur's Gate as a D&D adaptation, and there have been trashheaps like Ultima 9 and Descent to Undermountain in the late 90s, but I wouldn't say the late 90s were dreadful for RPGs as a whole. Even some darlings of the further, concurrent years, like Wizardry 8 or Gothic (which is straight up "What if Ultima 9 was good"), don't have that much in common with Baldur's Gate, so I wouldn't solely attribute BG with revitalizing the genre entirely. Remember, Fallout was released by Interplay a year earlier, and apparently was good enough to warrant a quick sequel with the designers given free reign to do whatever the hell they want.

"Baldur's Gate was a triumph the single-handedly revived the CRPG" has nothing to do with D&D and everything to do with the iconic status of BG itself.



Might & Magic spawned an entire franchise of at least 4 different spinoffs (Crusaders, Legends, Dark Messiah, Heroes of...) and has an extreme cult in quite a few regions of the world that I would not marginalize. The mainline series spawned 9 games before it died, and yet, when it seemed to be over, it was still briefly revived with a 10th game that even tried to go back to the MM3-5 mechanics. It certainly deserves its status more than Ultima, which has become way more obscure nowadays. Nobody who only cares about "iconic" games recognizes Ultima at all. Even its pioneership in focus on storytelling will be nowadays more recognized in games like Fallout or Baldur's Gate. That nobody tried to make a game quite like Ultima 4 ever since its release, while dungeon crawlers and blobbers at least still have their niche, should mean something.

Ultima's focus on impeccable world-building and focus on characters was replicated in Baldur's Gate and Fallout... and those are the games that are actually recognized for the trend. Ultima is like Wolfenstein 3D in the world where the term "First Person Shooter" is still not invented, we use "Doom-likes" instead.

Even for Ultima Online: World of Warcraft was the defining MMO for many people, and UO-derivatives like Tibia or Runescape captured the hearts of millenials otherwise.

HoMM is certainly iconic, as your own use of bold rightly indicates. M&M itself is unfortunately not.

You're wrong about Ultima. If M&M 11 were announced tomorrow, the gaming press would collectively shrug, if they bothered noting it at all. But "NEW ULTIMA" would capture headlines across the industry. Hell, even "ULTIMA 4/7 REMAKE" would, even if nothing from either were updated but the GUI.

[Knaight]

What I'm getting at is simple. How many times has their gaming column referenced Might & Magic? If even the "gaming publication" section of their non-gaming publication barely considers the series worthy of note, that speaks volumes about its status.

Or it speaks of the tastes of a handful of Forbes writers. Might and Magic was huge in eastern Europe in the 90's, and was one of fairly few series likely to be recognized by name by people who didn't play videogames.

[Psyren]

Or it speaks of the tastes of a handful of Forbes writers. Might and Magic was huge in eastern Europe in the 90's, and was one of fairly few series likely to be recognized by name by people who didn't play videogames.

BG meanwhile was huge worldwide. M&M can't compare.

[Winthur]

What I'm getting at is simple. How many times has their gaming column referenced Might & Magic? If even the "gaming publication" section of their non-gaming publication barely considers the series worthy of note, that speaks volumes about its status.

...Because it's old? Where are the articles on Ultima, then?


HoMM is certainly iconic, as your own use of bold rightly indicates. M&M itself is unfortunately not.
Given the strong ties of M&M to HoMM, especially when M&M6-7 are tied to the best-selling and most well-known game of the franchise, and the fact that if you see a Might & Magic cover, you can probably be like "Hey, this is somehow related to this kickass strategy game". It was a popular franchise, it had its heyday.

I mean, hell, even Dark Messiah is iconic for being the ultimate kicking simulator. :smalltongue:

Not to mention that you don't generally get to make 9 games in one franchise before it croaks if there wasn't some fuel behind it all.



You're wrong about Ultima. If M&M 11 were announced tomorrow, the gaming press would collectively shrug, if they bothered noting it at all. But "NEW ULTIMA" would capture headlines across the industry. Hell, even "ULTIMA 4/7 REMAKE" would, even if nothing from either were updated but the GUI.

I don't see anyone giving a crap about Shroud of the Avatar or any other failed Richard Garriott project. Then again, you will be hardpressed to find coverage on what Jon von Caneghem is doing these days, too.

[Rodin]

That's why Minsc is remembered fondly: He's one of the first, if not THE first memorable character from a good computer RPG.

Quest For Glory series would like a word. Or Final Fantasy VI. Or the entire adventure game genre, depending on how you define things.

Not disputing that Baldur's Gate is iconic, or that it helped save the PC RPG genre. But that last bit is kinda the point: It helped SAVE the genre, not create it. It generated new interest in a genre that had grown formulaic.

To say that it's the first to have a memorable character is to ignore a decade of great RPGs. Oh, and the entirety of Japan.

[Triaxx]

It was almost an entire new genre of Western style RPG, where battles are on the same, isometric view as the rest of the game.

[GungHo]

...Because it's old? Where are the articles on Ultima, then?
They destroyed their own legacy, both personally and corporate-ly (likely not a word). Strangely, they used the logo of the company that bought them, sacked them, and turned their own company's name into a beleaguered storefront as the symbols of an evil conspiracy.

[Psyren]

...Because it's old? Where are the articles on Ultima, then?

Come on, literally every article (http://www.fox7austin.com/news/local-news/136388591-story) about Lord British, even non-gaming ones, mention the series, because it was that important to the medium as a whole. M&M, while good... wasn't.



Given the strong ties of M&M to HoMM, especially when M&M6-7 are tied to the best-selling and most well-known game of the franchise, and the fact that if you see a Might & Magic cover, you can probably be like "Hey, this is somehow related to this kickass strategy game". It was a popular franchise, it had its heyday.

I'm not denying that its beloved by its base, but there's an order of magnitude between popular and iconic.



I don't see anyone giving a crap about Shroud of the Avatar or any other failed Richard Garriott project. Then again, you will be hardpressed to find coverage on what Jon von Caneghem is doing these days, too.

I guess CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/30/tech/gaming-gadgets/ultima-forever/)(!) isn't "anyone."

Again, M&M is a decent franchise. But comparing it to the likes of Ultima or BG in terms of name recognition is a joke. HoMM has a better shot, but even that falls short.


So back to topic: We have an extraordinarily iconic game, one that (as I linked before) is credited by several sources as reviving an entire genre. Within that very iconic game is an extremely memorable, quirky, and popular NPC. It's pretty much a perfect storm of memetic ascension.

[factotum]

Come on, literally every article (http://www.fox7austin.com/news/local-news/136388591-story) about Lord British, even non-gaming ones, mention the series, because it was that important to the medium as a whole.

Um, no, an article about Richard Garriott will mention Ultima because it's that important to *his life*, not because it's important to RPGs as a whole. It's rather less likely than an article on, say, Chris Avellone will mention Ultima, because he wasn't involved in its creation--his fame comes from the Fallout series.

[Psyren]

Um, no, an article about Richard Garriott will mention Ultima because it's that important to *his life*, not because it's important to RPGs as a whole. It's rather less likely than an article on, say, Chris Avellone will mention Ultima, because he wasn't involved in its creation--his fame comes from the Fallout series.

It's what put him on the map, because it's so iconic and sold so well. Thus the game series itself is newsworthy. "This is the guy who created Ultima, therefore we're writing an article about him" is itself proof that Ultima is a thing worth writing about.

[The_Jackal]

Quest For Glory series would like a word. Or Final Fantasy VI. Or the entire adventure game genre, depending on how you define things.

Please read my remarks in their entirety, rather than cherry-pick my conclusion and attempt to make it mean something I didn't infer.

[Rodin]

Please read my remarks in their entirety, rather than cherry-pick my conclusion and attempt to make it mean something I didn't infer.

Your entire quote:

"1998 (the year Baldur's Gate was released) was a seminal year in computer gaming. Computers were reaching levels of power, sophistication and accessibility which could support good voice acting, decent quality graphics, and offer developers the chance to not just offer gameplay, but also tell a story. Just a few years before, audio in games was limited to bleeps and squawks, with text underwritten to convey meaning. Not just coincidentally, it's also the year Half-Life came out. Thief came out introducing a now staple of the action game genre: Stealth.

That's why Minsc is remembered fondly: He's one of the first, if not THE first memorable character from a good computer RPG."

All of that is addressed in my post. Games with extremely good story-telling had existed for years prior. So had games with great gameplay. Games with both had also existed for years (see: Quest for Glory IV, with every character fully voiced and narrated by John Rhys-freaking-Davies.) Wing Commander 2 had voiced NPCs in 1991, a full seven years prior. The vast majority of Baldur's Gate itself was text.

Minsc was memorable because Minsc was a fun character in a great game. That's it. To imply that Baldur's Gate was some sort of massive leap forward technologically is to ignore the history of videogames up to that point. And I'm really not bagging on Baldur's Gate by saying that - it WAS the savior of the RPG industry in the West at the time, by being a really good RPG at a time when they were hitting a bit of a slump.

Your conclusion was that Minsc was the FIRST memorable character from an RPG, and that's simply crap. I don't begrudge Minsc his popularity, but your post came off VERY dismissive of the games I grew up with, and using bad logic to support the argument sets me off.

[danzibr]

Well... we're talking about *computer* RPG's, right? So FFVI doesn't apply. Lots of great, memorable characters come to mind from my youth, before I played Baldur's Gate (and I played it shortly after it came out), but truth be told, not a one is from a computer game. But also, to be fair, a vast majority of my games were console games.

Oh wait! Yeah, King's Quest. People in those games were memorable, and totally PC.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'd say Minsc's popularity is based on a "perfect storm" condition - key elements that made him memorable, beyond other characters of his own game. Anyone who has played BG will probably remember Imoen, Edwin, Jaheira, Viconia and Minsc than, say...what's the name of the Paladin NPC you get before going into Baldur's Gate proper?

Ajantis, but it's meant to state a point.

However, when thinking about memorable characters, he jumps to mind, over the other three I mentioned (whiny brat that survived despite the devs trying to kill her; megalomaniac Red Wizard with a huge fit of bad luck despite being extremely competent; hot warrior-shaman who works as surrogate woman and THEN potential love interest after a certain event; hot Drow Cleric that's not a clone of Drizzt, but not a cookie-cutter Drow). All of them had memorable voice acting, great character design, great backstory (maybe save Imoen, but she eventually develops into a full-fledged character of her own), are gained relatively early (Edwin is gained after Chapter 2, Viconia if you choose a detour)...but what makes Minsc special is that little something that few other characters can attest. I mean, Minsc had a tag-along character (Dynaheir, AKA Ms. "These shoes are made for walkin', and that is what they do!"), and she isn't as fondly remembered (mostly because of what happens in BG2 that makes her unavailable; same thing for Khalid). It's the same something that made Drizzt popular enough to transcend its media (books) and be officially considered a D&D mascot character. That little something...I really can't explain, but he has it, and it makes him popular. Maybe it's his man-child attitude, his zany hijinks, his utter manliness...very few things make him unlikeable, IMO. Very few NPCs reach that level of recognition.

Perhaps it's also that he was given a lot more prominence in the sequel (a reason why veteran BG players will fondly remember Imoen, Edwin, Viconia and Jaheira a lot more) and kept that special something that made him stand out. Once he stood out, he was marketed a lot further (a comic book series where he was the spotlight-stealing character; guest appearances in a D&D adventure and in one of the D&D MMOs), and that furthered his popularity. Considering the age difference, what would be the chances that, say, someone like Viconia (a Drow, and therefore long-lived) could be marketed the same way? You know, besides one of the endings denying it so?

Going into popularity and stuff really won't mean anything - at least, the popularity of a game won't truly explain that. Being recognized as a marketing tool and then used...perhaps that's the actual reason he gets so much love. I honestly expect Wizards of the Coast to do the same to other characters in the rest of their series (I dunno; besides Elminster and Drizzt, you could get Mordenkainen from Greyhawk, King Boranel from Eberron and Raistlin Majere from Dragonlance and give them the rockstar treatment). Nothing against Minsc, but the other realms need some of that love.

[Rodin]

Well... we're talking about *computer* RPG's, right? So FFVI doesn't apply. Lots of great, memorable characters come to mind from my youth, before I played Baldur's Gate (and I played it shortly after it came out), but truth be told, not a one is from a computer game. But also, to be fair, a vast majority of my games were console games.

Oh wait! Yeah, King's Quest. People in those games were memorable, and totally PC.

SNES is in fact a computer, but terminology niggles aside (the word we should be using is probably "PC", or possibly "desktop"), it is true that the pool becomes quite a bit shallower. You can also delineate it even further, and say that the old Sierra games were "Adventure" games and not RPGs, but that's a distinction I've never really been comfortable with. Quest For Glory typically gets classed as Adventure, despite having a fully statted combat system, random encounters, and boss battles.

[GungHo]

SNES is in fact a computer, but terminology niggles aside (the word we should be using is probably "PC", or possibly "desktop"), it is true that the pool becomes quite a bit shallower. You can also delineate it even further, and say that the old Sierra games were "Adventure" games and not RPGs, but that's a distinction I've never really been comfortable with. Quest For Glory typically gets classed as Adventure, despite having a fully statted combat system, random encounters, and boss battles.
The "QFG is not an RPG" folks are hung up on the SCI interface and the Sierra logo. If folks are willing to grant RPG status to Deus Ex, they can give it to QFG.

[Triaxx]

Deus is an action RPG, at least how I define the term. I afford QfG the same status.

[Psyren]

I agree QFG is an RPG but it's easy to see why people are iffy on granting it the title. It has the "Sierra Adventure Game" problem of instakilling you for clicking on the wrong thing, entering the wrong screen, or being a nanosecond too slow to react to something - and will often do this no matter what your stats are. "Gotcha deaths" like this in an adventure game are par for the course, but in an RPG can be pretty immersion-breaking.

[Winthur]

instakilling you for clicking on the wrong thing, entering the wrong screen
Baldur's Gate: talking to Nereida Shoal with your main character; fingering Sarevok in the Duchal Palace without the evidence, which looks like a generic scroll and can be either discarded or dropped by some "I'm carrying too much, your item is on the ground" shenanigans
Baldur's Gate 2: if you go into the first battle with Jon Irenicus without enlisting the prisoners' help, you die
Fallout: going to The Glow without realizing you should take Rad-X the moment you enter the screen (goes with the "being a nanosecond too slow to react to something" point).
Fallout 2: the NCR guards insist that you holster your weapon within town, but if you decide to warp into one of the town's districts upon arrival to save some time and just happen to lose focus a bit, you can end up in the middle of the street with your gun out and turn one of the central locations in the game hostile, which will probably screw you over and might result in death
Gothic: telling Gomez you know Y'Berion even after you've had the chance of meeting the guy results in getting wrecked instantly
Age of Decadence, a game from last year: fail to learn certain skills (the devs said they don't like how, allegedly, most RPGs let you unlock all options within a single playthrough, and wanted to introduce stat variance) and you can just lock yourself out of completing the game
numerous roguelikes

by stretch of definition, literally every RPG: walking into an encounter you were not prepared for, or even just your very first "You Have Been Waylaid By Enemies, Defend Yourself!".

Note that early QfG entries have some of those moments where a player might want to have a list of "moments where you should be wary of needing to start the game all over again", but by QfG4 they basically don't exist, and even in the earlier games they weren't nearly as blatant as in the other Sierra titles. Heroine's Quest, the modern inheritor of the formula, does not let you screw yourself over that easily either.


being a nanosecond too slow to react to something
Dark Souls


"Gotcha deaths" like this in an adventure game are par for the course, but in an RPG can be pretty immersion-breaking.

It's all about knowing what's gonna happen ahead of you and learning, so most oldschool roguelikes (which contain pretty much most computer RPG elements) or particularly some more sadistic dungeon crawlers.

This thread has run its course if it became a "what is an RPG" discussion; these are never very fruitful, and lead to some of those "San Andreas is more of an RPG than Divine Divinity" conclusions. I'd say QfG is definitely an RPG hybrid at the very least.

[wumpus]

Your entire quote:
Minsc was memorable because Minsc was a fun character in a great game. That's it. To imply that Baldur's Gate was some sort of massive leap forward technologically is to ignore the history of videogames up to that point. And I'm really not bagging on Baldur's Gate by saying that - it WAS the savior of the RPG industry in the West at the time, by being a really good RPG at a time when they were hitting a bit of a slump.

[tl;dr] here I argue that it really was technologically impressive. Not that such was the point, it really overwhelmed you with the story and how well it stuck with the AD&D ruleset (and Minsc. Don't forget Minsc). But it did require a certain amount of technology that didn't exist a few years earlier.

I'm really not sure you could do Baldur's Gate much earlier than they did. Wasn't it built for 640x480 and went to 800x600 in stock (BG2 could do more)? The 3d rendering of all the graphics was done offline *slowly*, but I suspect it used Intel-based workstations running NT or OS/2 (or possibly Linux), go any earlier and they would need to spend SGI money. Compact Discs had to be cheap enough to include 5 discs, and common enough that you could afford to *not* sell it on floppy (Yes, MS shipped windows 95 on floppy as well as disc. A *lot* of floppies).

Just because Baldur's Gate wasn't Neverwinter Nights (which replaced BG's simple pre-rendering and sprites with full direct-x rendering doesn't mean you could ship much earlier. I suspect they started assuming that it would ship when it was ground breaking, but that a project like that is going to slip a lot*. In the end, it still was technologically impressive for the day.

Yes, today's tablet friendly game was yesterday's "bring your beast to it's knees". Mostly by filling the entire hard drive with all 5 of those discs [to speed things up**] and not in any CPU-limited way, but it did use a ton of resources. A common tale I've heard for decades is that "in the old days gameplay trumped graphics". False: nearly all the old "great" games pushed the graphics as far as they could go. The difference is that a small programming team *could* push them as far as they could go. Nowadays, you can't ship a game such that you couldn't find a way to pay the artist team ten times the budget to keep creating textures, new meshes and whatnot. In BG's time, the limit was pretty much 5 compact discs (which is still huge, but I suspect a lot of it was pre-rendered bitmaps, video, and sound bites).

* even so it had bugs. After playing through BG2 and starting again, I couldn't believe how many bugs there were (and fixed in BG2).
** I doubt I had the room for BG1, and this is remembered from BG2. I'm not sure Minsc would be remembered if there was only BG1.

[The_Jackal]

Your conclusion was that Minsc was the FIRST memorable character from an RPG, and that's simply crap. I don't begrudge Minsc his popularity, but your post came off VERY dismissive of the games I grew up with, and using bad logic to support the argument sets me off.

Any dismissiveness is a matter of interpretation, not intent. My point about technology is about accessibility and articulation. You might have a very memorable character who expresses themselves via written text, but that's simply not as compelling as fully voiced dialogue, at least not to the masses of gamers who remember BG/BGII fondly. There are certainly no lack of great science fiction novels that predate Star Wars, yet Star Wars' revolutionary technical achievements vaulted it to a new plateau of popularity and recognition. That's the analogue I'm trying to make about Baldur's Gate. If anything, I'd say the accomplishments of prior RPGs are even greater, as they had to do more with less, to make a compelling story work with only pixelated sprites, bleeps and squawks, and text descriptions, at least in terms of telling a good story with compelling characters. I just didn't feel the impulse to explicitly indemnify my remarks in that manner in my first post.

[Psyren]

*snip*

Your analogies don't hold water. Look at some of the gotcha deaths in QFG. You can walk into an alleyway and two random thugs - not Irenicus, not Drizz't, not bloody Sarevok himself etc - just two no-name footpads, will insta-kill you without a combat sequence if you don't have your license, regardless of your combat skill or HP. Or standing in front of a dart board too long gets you killed even if your HP is high enough to get hacked with an axe. Immersion-breaking things like that.

Instakills themselves in RPGs are okay if the foe is obviously much more powerful than you. In QFG, many aren't. Sierra was just doing what they always do - padding gameplay and using difficulty as a form of copy-protection.

[GloatingSwine]

Your analogies don't hold water. Look at some of the gotcha deaths in QFG. You can walk into an alleyway and two random thugs - not Irenicus, not Drizz't, not bloody Sarevok himself etc - just two no-name footpads, will insta-kill you without a combat sequence if you don't have your license, regardless of your combat skill or HP. Or standing in front of a dart board too long gets you killed even if your HP is high enough to get hacked with an axe. Immersion-breaking things like that.

Instakills themselves in RPGs are okay if the foe is obviously much more powerful than you. In QFG, many aren't. Sierra was just doing what they always do - padding gameplay and using difficulty as a form of copy-protection.

The one with Nereida was about that.

You talk to the wrong NPC with your main character, game over. In dialogue. No way out.

[Psyren]

The one with Nereida was about that.

You talk to the wrong NPC with your main character, game over. In dialogue. No way out.

Was Nereida a random, no-name thug, the likes of which you could beat the hell out of in random encounters by the dozen?

[GloatingSwine]

Was Nereida a random, no-name thug, the likes of which you could beat the hell out of in random encounters by the dozen?

She's a Sirine, a reasonably common monster in the zone she's in that your party would otherwise chunk handily.

Except you can talk to her.

The character that talks to her dies instantly.

If the main character does it, it's game over.

[Winthur]

Your analogies don't hold water. Look at some of the gotcha deaths in QFG. You can walk into an alleyway and two random thugs - not Irenicus, not Drizz't, not bloody Sarevok himself etc - just two no-name footpads, will insta-kill you without a combat sequence if you don't have your license, regardless of your combat skill or HP.

The Nereida Shoal example is a straight-up example of a gotcha death, but let's go further.

What if I am playing a solo Sorcerer or Cleric and took my sweet ass time finding Imoen, instead solving all of Chapter 2, getting up to the highest echelons of spellcasting and easily being able to match Irenicus himself at that time? Or what if I was simply an all-immune Mustard Jelly with some defensive spell layers on top? How to justify the fact that no defensive spell can prevent me from getting instantly erased out of existence if I approach him without the prisoners?

Even in the Duchal Palace case, no matter if I imbued myself with all the rare potions in the game and raised my spell/fire resistance into tha stratosphere, I could very well just be cast into a fight with a ton of pissed off nobles and a 17th level spell resistant demigod himself - but no, instead I get snuffed out with an instant Flamestrike.

For all the other examples on my list, they would work under your "gotcha death" criteria.

In an adventure game, you primarily progress by solving the game's puzzles. Failure to do so will result in death (the Sierra way) or just lots and lots of trying-to-combine-jello-with-Portable-Statue-of-Theodore-Roosevelt (LucasArts et al.).

You meet the bandits in an alley - you have the right item to pass by them - you defeat the puzzle. It's just how this particular piece of gameplay works, that's the convention; both the BG examples ruin immersion, but are unlikely to be achieved in normal play or bothered with much. "Oh, I've done something wrong here in this video game, better reload and see what's there to do."

In an RPG, you progress by solving the game's encounters. Which are puzzles in and of themselves, only more open; in case of QfG, people finding its deaths iffy are missing the forest for the trees - QfG series specifically has the three different characters to introduce some variety to the usual, linear progress of the genre. A Fighter takes on enemies head-on and climbs steep walls; a Mage takes them out with spells and teleports on the other side; a Thief sneaks out and finds a different passage.

But, in any case: if you get waylaid by enemies early on, you might not even have a chance to react before you get shot in the gut thrice and die. You'll probably reload, consider your options and figure that it's a good idea to put those Invisibility Potions on every character's quick slot. You've solved this particular encounter.

Whether they are fair or not, both genres are fully capable of dishing out cheap shots.

In Baldur's Gate, you might insert a location and before you understand what's going on, you might have gotten backstabbed in the ass by (as in the fight in Neb's headquarters in BG2) the Rune Assassins with their high backstab modifiers and going invisible the moment the dialogue plays out. In Final Fantasy 1, after a long, grueling dungeon crawl in the Marsh Cave, you might be unlucky to roll a 6 Sorcerers combo, which might just cast their sole spell (which just happens to be an instant erase with a high chance of succeeding) and you'll die with your stats having no say on the matter; this guy (http://www.dos486.com/ff/ironcore/page3.shtml) lost an Ironman playthrough of the game simply by rolling a combo of Sorcerers that got Monsters strike first and completely eviscerated him. In Wizardry 1, the same can and will happen to you, except they're called Ninjas this time and are way more numerous and common in the lower levels. In ADOM, where you have to be a cannibal to survive the early game, eating a kobold will make you Sick, which is extremely dangerous and will result in death in a few turns later - mind you, your diet up to this point did include goblins or giant spiders to no ill effect.

In most of these cases, those annoyances are solved by simply loading the game, noting in your brain, in the meta-gaming slot, that this is how you respond to those encounters, and moving on. The bandits punched you out and you didn't get to take control - okay, the narration wants me to deal with this encounter elsewise.

Sure, it's not perfect, but gaming evolved since then, and there are some genre trappings that games upheld for a reason. I was pissed off when in 2012's Hitman Absolution, a series about figuring out solutions to open-ended puzzles and stealthily assassinating characters in your favourite simulation, you couldn't fiber wire a particularly annoying jerk because the game would immediately put you in cutscene land even if you'd have managed to sneak up on him, and instead forces you to do some inane puzzles. But in games with this kind of background, and in that day and age (the late 90s), it's obviously more passable.

QfG series, notably, is way less intensive on unwinnable situations - you know, the kind that lock you out of victory because you screwed up 10 hours of gameplay earlier - than other Sierra games (I don't think QfG4 has any), and honestly, otherwise death in an adventure game is really only an alternative to standing there for 15 minutes and wondering if you can pair tofu with mustache to create a petrol bomb.

And if we're talking solely immersion issues, re: the dartboard example is obviously supposed to be humorous, HP isn't necessarily a measure of how strong and invigorating is your blood (feel free to handwave it as "fighting spirit", inner strength, resolve or w/e), the thugs might have surprised you/simply overpowered you/been more savvy than you. If immersion is primary for an RPG to work, I would question that statement in a genre where 90% of casual playthroughs like to do things like resting for 20 days in one spot to heal by natural rest, or how most RPGs have a non-existent sense of urgency, letting you screw around when literal hell is spilling into the world.

[LibraryOgre]

Eh, I figure it's somewhat generational... if you were playing games at a certain time, you're a lot more likely to love Minsc than if you encountered him later. Kinda like how I just don't get Pokemon... doesn't mean there's something wrong with Pokemon, it just didn't hit at a point where I'd be interested in it.

He's a big, lovable, galoot... and very useful. Compare him with the other ranger, Kivan. He's quiet, withdrawn, with little overt character. Kivan's "player" (i.e. under the idea that the game is being played around the table) no doubt thought he was making a great character... tragic backstory, cool, quiet loner type. But, really, he's the kind of character who is boring to play with, because he thinks grunting and quiet coolness are awesome, but really gives you nothing but a stat block to react to. Minsc, comparitively, is the sort of character who's either fun or annoying.

[Psyren]

She's a Sirine, a reasonably common monster in the zone she's in that your party would otherwise chunk handily.

Except you can talk to her.

The character that talks to her dies instantly.

If the main character does it, it's game over.

She's still a powerful being, not a random human crook. Moreover, you CAN fight and kill her, even on sight if you want. Against the guys in QFG, if you can't solve the "puzzle" then you have no option but to avoid their alley regardless of your strength, and god forbid you ever go back there after your business is concluded. It's not at all comparable.

[Keltest]

She's still a powerful being, not a random human crook. Moreover, you CAN fight and kill her, even on sight if you want. Against the guys in QFG, if you can't solve the "puzzle" then you have no option but to avoid their alley regardless of your strength, and god forbid you ever go back there after your business is concluded. It's not at all comparable.

I would also suggest that the unavoidable game over is probably more of a "Devs didn't think things through" problem rather than a "devs are cruel and sadistic" problem, given that you get any other party member back should you allow the quest to proceed as intended.

[Psyren]

I would also suggest that the unavoidable game over is probably more of a "Devs didn't think things through" problem rather than a "devs are cruel and sadistic" problem, given that you get any other party member back should you allow the quest to proceed as intended.

This too. In reality they should have disabled the "Instant Bhaal Resurrection" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GxARm_QiCo) trigger that comes from the main character's death for that sequence, at least unless you choose not to have her rez the main character immediately. But it's a far cry from what the Sierra devs are notorious for.

[Rodin]

Still finding this entire discussion bizarre, since none of it even remotely talks about what it means to be an RPG, nevermind the original topic of the thread.

[Winthur]

Still finding this entire discussion bizarre, since none of it even remotely talks about what it means to be an RPG, nevermind the original topic of the thread.

I pointed it out before: "what is an RPG" threads are just giant pile-ups of different positions with nobody being able to come up with a clear consensus, and this thread devolving into one [especially since good answers to the original question have already been given, and I don't even disagree that much with Psyren; I find it kinda funny how we somehow always end up at least having some argument in any debate threads] is honestly grounds for abandonment.

With that in mind, I'd rather not continue the "is QfG an RPG" threadline - especially since Psyren actually agrees it is, so we're just arguing about details - although I could argue my case further.

But yeah, tl;dr: Minsc is a memorable character from a highly popular RPG series: take your pick whether Baldur's Gate is a genre-revolutionizing phenomenon, a classic RPG from a golden age or, as some harsh people [that I don't belong to] could say, an aged game with lots of shortcomings carried mostly on a great engine, colourful graphics and voice actor support; Minsc has easy mascot qualities [the voice of Jim Cummings, a quirky hamster pet, highly quotable sayings]; Minsc is also fleshed out in both BG1 and BG2, and it's safe to say that due to extensive writing and focus on banter and interparty relations, BG2 characters stand out more, Minsc in particular as you are almost certain to have him in the party for a while due to how Irenicus Chateau works.

I don't think there's that much more to say.

[Forum Explorer]

Really Winthur? You didn't mention the most 'gotcha' death of them all in BG2? Those damn lightning bolt traps. Narrow corridor, set one off, get hit 3-4 times and just watch your health bars melt. Usually killing your MC if they are in front. Reload, and set on 'look for traps' is the answer to that 'puzzle', but it seems to be just as much of a gotcha death then not having license to not get gibbed by thieves.

[Keltest]

Really Winthur? You didn't mention the most 'gotcha' death of them all in BG2? Those damn lightning bolt traps. Narrow corridor, set one off, get hit 3-4 times and just watch your health bars melt. Usually killing your MC if they are in front. Reload, and set on 'look for traps' is the answer to that 'puzzle', but it seems to be just as much of a gotcha death then not having license to not get gibbed by thieves.

If you made it far enough to encounter the lightning bolt traps and you haven't figured out that you need a rogue to look for traps before going anywhere, I'm pretty sure that's your own fault. The first dungeon is filled with kobolds and their traps, and it only gets worse from there.

[Kish]

"Keep Find Traps on and have your thief always go first when in dungeons" is the answer to that "puzzle," and it's less a "gotcha" and more something the game expects you to know because duh (and explicitly tells you on one of the loading screens, too).

[danzibr]

This too. In reality they should have disabled the "Instant Bhaal Resurrection" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GxARm_QiCo) trigger that comes from the main character's death for that sequence, at least unless you choose not to have her rez the main character immediately. But it's a far cry from what the Sierra devs are notorious for.
I always disliked that.

Really Winthur? You didn't mention the most 'gotcha' death of them all in BG2? Those damn lightning bolt traps. Narrow corridor, set one off, get hit 3-4 times and just watch your health bars melt. Usually killing your MC if they are in front. Reload, and set on 'look for traps' is the answer to that 'puzzle', but it seems to be just as much of a gotcha death then not having license to not get gibbed by thieves.
As others have mentioned, of course Find Traps should always be on.

Also, I'm suddenly reminded of the great many ways to die in King's Quest games.

[LibraryOgre]

Also, I'm suddenly reminded of the great many ways to die in King's Quest games.

The Night Gaunts will get you if you don't watch out!

[Psyren]

Also, I'm suddenly reminded of the great many ways to die in King's Quest games.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheManyDeathsOfYou

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoDzP5nxs4&list=PLBA27B6BE2B64BC9D

Hope you didn't have anything you needed to get done today :smallbiggrin:

[Triaxx]

Thief heck, the Cleric has Find Traps that should always be on, since it doesn't interfere with them doing other things like it does on the thief. Though that said I do both.

The truly brutal Lightning Bolt trap is the one in Cloak wood Mines in BG1. It's about 3/4 of the way down the corridor, where you'll almost certainly have put your entire party. Sadistic DMing at it's finest.

[Forum Explorer]

I'd usually have my thief not on the front lines, so the trap wouldn't be detected until I set the bloody thing off.

I mean, I eventually learned my lesson, and had the thief scout forward, clear the traps, find the enemies, die, reload, move the party up, fight the enemies, rinse and repeat.

[wumpus]

"Keep Find Traps on and have your thief always go first when in dungeons" is the answer to that "puzzle," and it's less a "gotcha" and more something the game expects you to know because duh (and explicitly tells you on one of the loading screens, too).

Once the "dump cloudkill on enemies that haven't discovered you yet" exploit was noticed, you would think they would tone down the traps. It really goes out of the way to encourage a playstyle that just begs for that cloudkill spell.

[danzibr]

The Night Gaunts will get you if you don't watch out!
Admittedly I don't get the reference... haven't played whatever game that one comes from.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheManyDeathsOfYou

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoDzP5nxs4&list=PLBA27B6BE2B64BC9D

Hope you didn't have anything you needed to get done today :smallbiggrin:
*clicks youtube link*

*does some googling*

*sees something called "AGD Interactive - Download free King's Quest remakes"*

My response to Mark Hall will be soon changing :)

[Winthur]

Once the "dump cloudkill on enemies that haven't discovered you yet" exploit was noticed, you would think they would tone down the traps. It really goes out of the way to encourage a playstyle that just begs for that cloudkill spell.

Don't see how, frankly, given that frequent resting in dungeons is likely necessary to faciliate that strategy tends to spawn pretty annoying encounters, and most traps don't trigger inside grand battle rooms.

If it is a particularly trap-intensive dungeon and your thief is not able to keep up, just burn a level 2 slot on Find Traps and establish your killzones in previous corridors where you're not gonna risk walkikng into death.

Actually, each class has quite a few ways of dealing with traps; once you find them out it's not bad at all.

[GungHo]

Admittedly I don't get the reference... haven't played whatever game that one comes from.

*clicks youtube link*

*does some googling*

*sees something called "AGD Interactive - Download free King's Quest remakes"*

My response to Mark Hall will be soon changing :)

No, it won't. The Night Gaunts were in QFG 1, which I still call Hero's Quest because I still have the box and that's what it says, lawsuit settlements be damned.

[LibraryOgre]

No, it won't. The Night Gaunts were in QFG 1, which I still call Hero's Quest because I still have the box and that's what it says, lawsuit settlements be damned.

We first played it as Hero's Quest, too.

How's this for some old-school pirating? My Uncle bought himself a copy of Hero's Quest. Now, back in the day, games came with both 3.5" and 5.25" disks. He had a 3.5" drive, so he didn't need the 5.25". So he sent us a free copy of Hero's Quest, from those 5.25" disks. Mind you, I've bought the game like 4 or 5 times since, so they got their money's worth out of me, but still...

[danzibr]

No, it won't. The Night Gaunts were in QFG 1, which I still call Hero's Quest because I still have the box and that's what it says, lawsuit settlements be damned.
Shucks. Better buy the QfG pack.

[LibraryOgre]

Shucks. Better buy the QfG pack.

It's a great series, and did the "Carry your character forward" way back in the 90s. There's even an AGD version of the 2nd game (http://www.agdinteractive.com/games/qfg2/), with the updated graphics and interface.

[Psyren]

Ultima did it even earlier - you could import from 4->5 back in the late 80's, and 5->6 in 1990.

[Gnoman]

Wizardry I-III required character transfer - II and III didn't have the character creation system in their original release, so you had to import a character from I into II and then from II into III. In a series with the possibility of permadeath. It was also a feature in the original The Bard's Tale trilogy, Might and Magic II (could import from Might and Magic I), and in perhaps the oddest example, Centauri Alliance (which allowed importation from Ultima III or the three Bard's Tale games). It was very, very common back in the day.

[factotum]

Heck, forget character transfer--what about releasing an entire game that tacks on to the previous one, like Might and Magic IV and V did? Yes, you could play V standalone, but if you installed it alongside IV, you got the whole of that game as well, plus some extra stuff that only became available with both games installed.

[Lord Torath]

Heck, forget character transfer--what about releasing an entire game that tacks on to the previous one, like Might and Magic IV and V did? Yes, you could play V standalone, but if you installed it alongside IV, you got the whole of that game as well, plus some extra stuff that only became available with both games installed.All of the Gold Box SSI games let you bring characters over from earlier games in the series (Krynn/Savage Frontier/Azure Bonds)

[Philistine]

A little after the Gold Boxes, but as I recall it SSI's Eye of the Beholder series really encouraged you to keep your characters through all 3 games. You could create a new party in each game, but you'd struggle for a while before you caught up to the levels the new game expected based on an imported party.

And speaking of the original Bard's Tale, there was a non-sequel titled... Dragon something... Dragon Wars, maybe? Anyway, it also allowed importing characters from BT, despite (IIRC, special emphasis on "if") not even being set in the same world.

[Kish]

It wasn't set on the same world. EA demanded more money than they were willing to pay for the right to make what was planned to be Bard's Tale IV, so it got renamed to Dragon Wars--and all the dragons got added to a game that hadn't been planned to have dragons--fairly late in the development process.

[Lortime]

anyone see dnd games with aq inc minsk helps defend aq inc hq