"Scholar" flavored build

[danielxcutter]

Note: Thought exercise; not really going to be used for play.

Anyone have an idea for a "scholar" flavored build - that is, a build that would fit someone who's passion is studying and learning the great secrets of power(which can be magic, psionics, or anything else)? I do have a few ideas, but I'm not sure how good they'll be.

*Wizard 5/Archivist 5/Mystic Theurge 10

Yeah, it sucks. I mean, it's a decent tier 2~3 build at worst, but not compared to the base classes. Still, it fits the flavor well(researching both arcane and divine magic), it's completely Int-based, and it's capable of learning 99% or so of all spells in the game, so I wouldn't call it unplayable.

*Wizard 3/Psion 3/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer 4

Good in that it fits the flavor, and it's probably more powerful than the first build... but it does need some adjustment due to the fact it's based on 3.0 rules. Then it's probably great since it's Int-based all the way.

*Wizard 3/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 4

Somewhat MAD, but it fits the character idea perfectly, it gets double 9ths, and to be honest it's one of the few dual-casting builds that gets them without cheese or a fast-track PrC. I'm leaning towards either this or the above one, but the others still have appeal.

*Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5

Less sucky than the first build with Practiced Spellcaster(Sorcerer), and it has great potential for a character devoted to the study of arcane magic. Unfortunate that it's MAD, though, which is bad, but that bad since you don't need a really high Cha.

*Beguiler 1/Wizard 4/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5

In terms of power, better than the above Wizard/Sorcerer build... but I just don't think that it fits the image I have.


Does anyone have advice which to use, or possibly a better idea? Please follow the guidelines below;

*No rules-lawyering cheese, like most ways to get early entry to Mystic Theurge. I am requesting perfectly acceptable builds that will be allowed at all tables, barring ones where the DM hates you.

*I'd also prefer not to use Ur-Priest, Nar Demonbinder, or most other 10-level spell-granting classes. Sublime Chord is a maaaaybe, but it's still kinda weird.

*No Anima Mage please; I don't have much experience with Binders yet.

[Troacctid]

Wizard 10/Loremaster 10

No need to get complicated, you basically just described a core wizard. Or Archivist. Cleric works too, especially if they're an Arcane Disciple or Scribe Cloistered Cleric.


*Wizard 3/Psion 3/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer 4

Good in that it fits the flavor, and it's probably more powerful than the first build... but it does need some adjustment due to the fact it's based on 3.0 rules. Then it's probably great since it's Int-based all the way.
None of this is 3.0 content.

[Khedrac]

For a "Scholar" flavoured build I would work it round as many levels of Loremaster (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/loremaster.html) as I can.
Bonus points if you put it on an Archivist build instead of Wizard.

[danielxcutter]

Wizard 10/Loremaster 10

No need to get complicated, you basically just described a core wizard. Or Archivist. Cleric works too, especially if they're an Arcane Disciple or Scribe Cloistered Cleric.


For a "Scholar" flavoured build I would work it round as many levels of Loremaster (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/loremaster.html) as I can.
Bonus points if you put it on an Archivist build instead of Wizard.

I should have expected this, and yes that is the least complicated build... but I dunno, it seems a little trite to me.

On the other hand, the simple solution usually is the best.


None of this is 3.0. content.

Odd, as the source I found it used the 3.0 psionic rules in the description... Must have been updated, then.

[eggynack]

I should have expected this, and yes that is the least complicated build... but I dunno, it seems a little trite to me.

On the other hand, the simple solution usually is the best.
Sometimes, a character archetype isn't directly represented by some really clear cut options, and you have to scrounge together a bunch of stuff from a pile of books, fitting the pieces together until they look about right. This doesn't seem to be one of those times. More important than the fact that the straight wizard/loremaster version is relatively elegant is the fact that it seems like an actually better representation of the scholar concept than some wacky theurge build. Personally, I'd go full on "Ultimate core wizard", and toss on five levels of archmage at the end, in lieu of five levels of wizard. Spontaneous divination helps too. There's probably some other solid scholar elements I'm forgetting, but said elements would still probably be in line with a wizard base.

[Virdish]

If you want to spice up the loremaster build you can never go wrong with Wizard 5/Paragnostic Apostle 5/Loremaster 10

Of course if you want to go the route of tormented scholar then. Wizard 5/Tainted Scholar 10/Paragnostic Apostle 5

If your worried about the gouda being too strong just don't go undead and tainted scholar is good but not as broken since you still care how high your taint and depravity get to a certain extent.

[Troacctid]

The least complicated build is Wizard 20, Cleric 20, or Archivist 20. :smallwink:

All of them have built-in scholar flavor (okay, with cleric you need to dip into ACFs a bit) and function well at any stage of the game.

[danielxcutter]

Okay... I get that the "scholar" archetype requires little to no creative building. However... I can't shake the feeling that something's missing, that I should have been more specific. Sure, the easiest way would be 20 levels in an Int-based caster class, but the problem is that I was thinking more of width than depth in terms of knowledge and power, if that makes sense. Perhaps I just asked the wrong question, but the answers I've got are somewhat... unsatisfying, to be honest. Forgive me for being vague and unexact; I don't think that I'm good at describing abstract concepts.

[Inevitability]

Seer 15?

Action economy shenanigans of your choice + Power point recovery shenanigans of your choice + Hypercognition = Omniscience.

[danielxcutter]

Seer 15?

Action economy shenanigans of your choice + Power point recovery shenanigans of your choice + Hypercognition = Omniscience.

Heh... not bad. :smallamused:

[Diovid]

Gnome (preferably one with an int-bonus) Bardic Sage 6 / Urban Savant 9 / Paragnostic Apostle 5

Take the Absent Minded trait.

Get the Collector of Stories skill trick.

Affiliate yourself with the Paragnostic Assembly and possibly also something like the Highspire University or the Society of Symphonic Sortilege.

Take feats such as Breadth of Knowledge, Obscure Lore, Trivial Knowledge and Master of Knowledge.

[Anthrowhale]

If you are willing to do an unambiguous early entry, then Archivist 1/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Lore Master 6 is both systematically strong and consistently has the right concept.

Archivist 1/Wizard 1 qualifies you for Alternate Source Spell. Alternate Source Spell + L3 Wizard implies unambiguous access to L2 divine and arcane spell qualifying for Mystic Theurge. If you choose a specialist class on the Wizard side, you qualify for "Theurgic Specialist" which allows you to unambiguously add caster levels.

"add together the caster level of all your spellcasting classes to determine your caster level"
So MT + Theurgic Specialist means caster level +10 in the specialty school.

You only get 6th level Archivist spells, but access to every 6th level spell in the game is good enough that it's a reasonable tradeoff against losing a level of wizard.

[ShurikVch]

Almost everything useful already mentioned, but still, there are some things left:

Artificer
Gets as class skills: Knowledge in arcana(/psionic), architecture and engineering, and the planes;
Need knowledge to know about existing magic(/psionic) items, and how to craft them;
May give huge bonuses to your Knowledge checks - if you invest into it
Able to craft Ring of Research, Lore Gem, Book of all Knowledge...

Binder
Gets as class skills: Knowledge in arcana, history, religion, and the planes;
need knowledge to know about vestiges, how to bind them, and what's to expect from them;
While bonded, Buer gives +4 on Knowledge (nature),
Dantalion - +8 on all Knowledge checks,
Halphax - +16 competence on Knowledge (architecture and engineering),
The Triad (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070119a) - gives you Bardic Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#bardicKnowledge) (use your effective binder level instead of your bard level), allow to manifest Call to Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/calltoMind.htm) (re-roll failed Knowledge check with +4 competence bonus)
I know, you said "no Anima Mage", but it's straight Binder (maybe with some levels in Knight of the Sacred Seal, or Scion of Dantalion)

Erudite
The very word "Erudite" suggest knowledgeable, studious, well-educated person
Gets as class skills: all Knowledge skills;
If you really want it, you can boost your Knowledge checks - say, with s2p Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a)
If race is Synad, you will be able to spent 1 power point to get +2 on Knowledge check

PrC (from Dragon #286): Elder Druid - full caster; at 1st level can invoke tongues and comprehend languages on himself, at will; at 9th level - +5 competence bonus on all Knowledge checks.
Don't be confused with "Druid" in PrC name - it works with any caster - arcane, divine, or even Shadowcaster

[John Longarrow]

Bard 20.

All those skill points, ability to use bardic lore, and you can refluff the "Bardic Music" as "oration".

You wind up with a scholar who's able to handle just about any question that comes their way and has the interpersonal skills (diplomacy, gather info) to go find more.

Two dips that would be worthwhile on this would be one level in MindBender for telepathy and one into Marshal to get motivate intelligence (Cha bonus to Int checks). You can also do sublime chord if you want on top.

Alternate would be Expert-20.

[The Viscount]

You could always toss in some amount of Dark Scholar, Loremaster's evil sibling. Slightly less stringent entry requirements, and a somewhat different selection of abilities.

Savant and Factotum are of course both very scholar flavored, but don't seem to be what you're looking for.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Knowledge Devotion is a must in a build like this, even for wizard. Might be fun to add in a level of Monk with Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk to get Int-to-AC, too.

[danielxcutter]

Knowledge Devotion is a must in a build like this, even for wizard. Might be fun to add in a level of Monk with Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk to get Int-to-AC, too.

Knowledge Devotion is quite fun.

[mabriss lethe]

If it weren't for the fact that it's a terrible class, I'd recommend Truenamer as the ultimate in scholar-mage flavor. But it is a nigh-unplayable trainwreck, so... not so much.

Whenever I build scholar characters, I tend to shy away from full casters. Bard and factotum are definitive mid-tier "know-it-alls" and several other classes can be shoehorned into the role.

A purely mundane scholar is difficult to do, but oddly enough, some dips in NPC classes can give you a leg up. Aristocrat gives you an OK chassis and an almost perfect skill list. Expert (and by extension, something like Human Paragon) can let you branch out into truly obscure areas of learning not covered by the knowledge skill, but you'll eat your class skills if you fill your choices up with knowledge skills. It's far better for things like iaijutsu focus, lucid dreaming, use magic device, and autohypnosis,

[Diovid]

A purely mundane scholar is difficult to do, but oddly enough, some dips in NPC classes can give you a leg up. Aristocrat gives you an OK chassis and an almost perfect skill list. Expert (and by extension, something like Human Paragon) can let you branch out into truly obscure areas of learning not covered by the knowledge skill, but you'll eat your class skills if you fill your choices up with knowledge skills. It's far better for things like iaijutsu focus, lucid dreaming, use magic device, and autohypnosis,
There is always the Master class from Dragonlance War of the Lance which is basically 'skills, the class' for the skill groups Craft, Perform, Profession and Knowledge (it specializes in one and later two of these groups) and which is mundane.

[Stryyke]

If I was doing this build, I would take Bard, for bardic knowledge and the ability to use all knowledge skills untrained; Wizard, now you have both types of arcane casting; Loremaster; and Demonologist. What you might feel like you are missing might be a reason to have all that knowledge. Finishing up demonologist lets you take advantage of all that lore and put it to practical use in a more academic way.

[danielxcutter]

If I was doing this build, I would take Bard, for bardic knowledge and the ability to use all knowledge skills untrained; Wizard, now you have both types of arcane casting; Loremaster; and Demonologist. What you might feel like you are missing might be a reason to have all that knowledge. Finishing up demonologist lets you take advantage of all that lore and put it to practical use in a more academic way.

Bingo, hit the nail right on the head in terms of what I wanted, if not what prestige class to use - I wanted the vast knowledge to actually translate in to real power. Demonologist isn't really what I was looking for, but you described what I wanted to say perfectly.

[Hiro Quester]

If you want an application like Demonologist, but with a slightly "mad scientist" flavor, you could also put Alienist into the build.

[Stryyke]

Hmm. The problem is that any good aligned scholar, will be sharing his knowledge. He will be an educator, or in the employ of a ruler. The kind of power you want can really only be achieved through "evil" means. The only D&D applicable way for a good aligned player to translate all that knowledge in to great power is to become a deity; though one might question if the act of accepting worship is really "good" at all.

For all that knowledge to turn into actual power, you either need to use it to track down powerful demons and capture them, or something in the necromantic arts. Become a lich for instance. There are goals that you could chase, like ruling the world, but that's not really a class. So those would be my personal suggestions. If you want to be good, be a god. Otherwise you'll need to be evil.

[Nifft]

Human Wizard 20 with Collegiate Wizard (CArc) and Able Learner (RoD).

Buy ranks in:
- Concentration & Spellcraft
- Knowledge skills
- Languages (should cost 1 point each thanks to Able Learner)
- Decipher Script

At level 5, take Spontaneous Divination as an ACF.

That's really all you need to be a very convincing scholar.

[Inevitability]

Hmm. The problem is that any good aligned scholar will be sharing his knowledge. He will be an educator, or in the employ of a ruler.

Not necessarily; or do you have some citations saying otherwise?

[Stryyke]

Not necessarily; or do you have some citations saying otherwise?

Not necessarily. But that is the nature of good. If you can think of a good-aligned class that actually utilizes its knowledge in other ways, do tell. I really can't think of any. Evil people seek power or seek to keep others down. Good people seek to use their knowledge to make the world a better place. For the purposes of D&D, most applications that are "good" are kind of boring.

[Nifft]

Not necessarily. But that is the nature of good. If you can think of a good-aligned class that actually utilizes its knowledge in other ways, do tell. I really can't think of any. Evil people seek power or seek to keep others down. Good people seek to use their knowledge to make the world a better place. For the purposes of D&D, most applications that are "good" are kind of boring.

My character has been using his knowledge for the GOOD purpose of keeping the universe safe, and there have been enough threats to the universe that the work seems to be pretty damn exciting so far.

To take a better documented example: you're saying that Dr. Strange has a dull job.

[Stryyke]

My character has been using his knowledge for the GOOD purpose of keeping the universe safe, and there have been enough threats to the universe that the work seems to be pretty damn exciting so far.

To take a better documented example: you're saying that Dr. Strange has a dull job.

Remember the topic. It's not about whether there are worthy purposes, but interesting class builds that would use the knowledge acquired as a scholar. I suppose that specialized builds to "rid the world" of a specific evil could be interesting. It's just more exciting to use said knowledge to acquire power, rather than educate or defend. And don't forget, these are opinions. There is no "right" answer.

[Nifft]

Remember the topic. It's not about whether there are worthy purposes, but interesting class builds that would use the knowledge acquired as a scholar. I suppose that specialized builds to "rid the world" of a specific evil could be interesting. It's just more exciting to use said knowledge to acquire power, rather than educate or defend. Acquiring power is not the opposite of acquiring knowledge, especially in a universe where knowledge is quite directly related to power.

In fact, having power is necessary in order to defend yourself, or anything else -- including defense of knowledge itself.

I've posted a simple yet interesting and scholarly class build that would be very much at home going on adventures to acquire more knowledge (and more power).


And don't forget, these are opinions. There is no "right" answer. When you thought you were right, you stated your opinion as fact:


For all that knowledge to turn into actual power, you either need to use it to track down powerful demons and capture them, or something in the necromantic arts. Become a lich for instance. There are goals that you could chase, like ruling the world, but that's not really a class. So those would be my personal suggestions. If you want to be good, be a god. Otherwise you'll need to be evil.

The thing that you've got wrong here is that you see power as evil, and power as interesting, and therefore you only see evil as interesting. You're wrong about all of that.

Power is not evil.

Hurting other people in pursuit of power is evil.

[Stryyke]

Acquiring power is not the opposite of acquiring knowledge, especially in a universe where knowledge is quite directly related to power.

A) I never said, or even implied, that the acquisition of power is opposite acquiring knowledge. That is a straw man you have set up. The whole point of my post was to acquire power using knowledge.
B)I think I might argue that, in a D&D setting, knowledge is directly related to power. In any setting there are many NPCs that have knowledge, but not power. A LVL 1 rogue may know of an assassination attempt, but that doesn't give him power. See what I mean.


In fact, having power is necessary in order to defend yourself, or anything else -- including defense of knowledge itself.

You are still missing the point. I never said power wasn't necessary, but rather it's not as interesting. Playing a scholar who teaches kids would be boring. Playing a dutiful guardian would be boring. Sitting in a throne room all day, every day would be boring. The easiest way to build an interesting character/class is to have a personal goal. Since evil is inherently more selfish than good, there are far more ways to make interesting evil builds, than good ones.


I've posted a simple yet interesting and scholarly class build that would be very much at home going on adventures to acquire more knowledge (and more power).

See but that's the problem the OP was trying to overcome. Using knowledge to get more knowledge is incomplete and boring. Using the knowledge to gain power is more interesting. What to do with that knowledge in interesting ways is what the OP wants to know.


When you thought you were right, you stated your opinion as fact:

And don't be a tone troll. It's understood that anything said in these forums is opinion.

[Nifft]

A) I never said, or even implied, that the acquisition of power is opposite acquiring knowledge. That is a straw man you have set up. The whole point of my post was to acquire power using knowledge. That's not true:

Hmm. The problem is that any good aligned scholar, will be sharing his knowledge. He will be an educator, or in the employ of a ruler. The kind of power you want can really only be achieved through "evil" means. You've explicitly stated -- not even implied -- that playing an adventurer who gathers knowledge-as-power "can really only be achieved through evil means".

You're wrong about it, and you're wrong about not saying it.


You are still missing the point. I never said power wasn't necessary, but rather it's not as interesting. Playing a scholar who teaches kids would be boring. Playing a dutiful guardian would be boring. Sitting in a throne room all day, every day would be boring. The easiest way to build an interesting character/class is to have a personal goal. Since evil is inherently more selfish than good, there are far more ways to make interesting evil builds, than good ones. You're missing ... rather a lot, including two people's points.

Being Good does not require sitting in any particular room every day.

Teaching one or more apprentices -- i.e. taking the Leadership feat and starting a knowledge-centric stronghold -- is not boring.

You've got a failure of imagination, and you're trying to spin the limits of your imagination as if they were the limits of the world. They're not. The world is not that limited.

(Well, unless you're the GM.)

[Stryyke]

That's not true:
You've explicitly stated -- not even implied -- that playing an adventurer who gathers knowledge-as-power "can really only be achieved through evil means".

You're wrong about it, and you're wrong about not saying it.

You're missing ... rather a lot, including two people's points.

Being Good does not require sitting in any particular room every day.

Teaching one or more apprentices -- i.e. taking the Leadership feat and starting a knowledge-centric stronghold -- is not boring.

You've got a failure of imagination, and you're trying to spin the limits of your imagination as if they were the limits of the world. They're not. The world is not that limited.

(Well, unless you're the GM.)

I'm not going to continue to argue about this. Believe what you will.

[Nifft]

I'm not going to continue to argue about this. Believe what you will.

I'll continue to believe that Good can be fun and interesting, and I'll continue to believe that being Good while also adventuring is quite possible -- all evidence points to these truths.

It would be nice if you conceded the point that Evil is not inherently more interesting than Good.

However, this isn't about you, so I'll happily settle for convincing the OP that Good can be very interesting in play, and that a scholar need not be evil in order to be fun.

[Afgncaap5]

Well, since this isn't really intended for play, and since studying as a way to attain great power is intentionally vague...

It's worth noting that Imhotep managed to ascend to godhood with just 20 levels of Expert under his belt. :smallsmile: Expert 20 with a few select feats (Educated, Research, Knowledge Devotion, Skill Focus (Knowledge (Whatever)), and more all come to mind) might not be powerful in terms of games, but you can't really say that the character wouldn't know a lot. Add on a few other fun goodies (the Collector of Stories skill trick, the Iaijutsu Focus skill if you want to get into a few surprise fights, etc.) and you'd have an intriguing character to work with.

Alternatively: I feel like the Jade Phoenix Mage prestige class could go this route. "Martial Lore" is hard to look at as anything but scholastic pursuits in the name of power, so someone who studies martial combat and arcane knowledge at the same time could be fun. Probably not as good as a Bard would be most of the time in terms of knowledge goes, but I think it fits the flavor.

[Flickerdart]

If someone is interested in practicing and not just learning about these things, they are not really a scholar, more of a...hobbyist? Dilettante? You could do worse than Factotum 20, which may not be a fun build, but would definitely be fun to play.

[schreier]

Saw Bard mentioned several times, but no mention of the Bardic Sage ACF?

[Calthropstu]

Think I'll hop into this argument.
I will go with Stryyke is just plain wrong here.

A good cleric of Gond or Oghma, for example, would journey into ancient undead tombs in search of knowledge acquired by liches or the like in their studies in order to add that knowledge into the library of Oghma.

A good arcane caster, seeking to acquire dangerous knowledge in order to combat some great evil long buried but about to awaken, would travel to the ends of the world seeking tomes of great importance.

A good knowledge seeker, wanting to find knowledge that could be used in the most dire of circumstances, would travel to libraries, tombs and other places of long buried knowledge all over the world.

A do gooder, seeking to create the most extensive collection of knowledge in history, and then reveal it to the world at a later date, would be kinda fun to play.

I can think these character concepts up all day, and they would all be interesting and fun.

The only thing evil characters would be wanting is some stupid bit of knowledge to serve themselves. The good characters would be working towards something grandiose.

I'd personally prefer the good variety... more variety, better concepts.