Megadungeon vs Sandbox

[Trask]

I'm thinking about a good way to start off my upcoming old school style 5e campaign for the winter break and I've come down to two options.

Starting the players in a town near a mega dungeon (most likely caverns of Thracia)

Or starting the players off in a town with a surrounding area of smaller modules and towns that they can explore in a more sandbox fashion (hommlet, Kotb, against the cult of the reptile God)

I like the idea of a megadungeon but I also feel as though I get more real estate out of establishing a world beyond a town and a dungeon if I wanted to extend the game with something like red hand of doom.

Anyone with experiences of this style of game have any suggestions? Thanks

[Koo Rehtorb]

Start in a dungeon, but not a mega dungeon. Something that'll take a session or two at most to wrap up. You want something to break the ice and present people with an immediate problem to deal with, but you don't want it to take longer than it needs to.

You can bring in mega dungeons or whatever else you want later. Start with something small but concrete to work with.

[hymer]

Some would depend on the players. Sandboxes aren't too good for players without some amount of initiative. Such players might do better in the fairly straightforward environment of a megadungeon, where there's always an obvious objective.
I'd definitely suggest going with the wider sandbox if your players are up to it. There's so much more you can do, and so much more they can do.

Edit: I've never played an actual megadungeon, but I've run a few sandboxes, and some have/had some enormous dungeons in them. These dungeons were not always popular, but the players could simply stay away from them, so it was okay. If the dungeon is all there is, though...

[Grod_The_Giant]

One might try asking your players which they're more interested in...

[Trask]

Some would depend on the players. Sandboxes aren't too good for players without some amount of initiative. Such players might do better in the fairly straightforward environment of a megadungeon, where there's always an obvious objective.
I'd definitely suggest going with the wider sandbox if your players are up to it. There's so much more you can do, and so much more they can do.

Edit: I've never played an actual megadungeon, but I've run a few sandboxes, and some have/had some enormous dungeons in them. These dungeons were not always popular, but the players could simply stay away from them, so it was okay. If the dungeon is all there is, though...

I dont plan on using a hexcrawl sandbox, more site based although I will use hexes for travel and random encounters, but I plan on using lots of hooks and such. Im not a fan of straight vanilla sandbox play. My players are pretty proactive once they have a hook in front of them.

[Trask]

One might try asking your players which they're more interested in...

One might and one did. Players were very ambivalent. Most of them arent very experienced with D&D beyond this one series of adventures i ran for them in the summer and they dont really have enough technical knowledge to make an informed decision on the matter.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One might and one did. Players were very ambivalent. Most of them arent very experienced with D&D beyond this one series of adventures i ran for them in the summer and they dont really have enough technical knowledge to make an informed decision on the matter.
Have both, then. Create your small country of towns and modules, and drop your megadungeon in the wilderness somewhere. Then you can steer them towards it if they flounder, or they can abandon it if they get bored.

[AdmiralCatticus]

Have both, then. Create your small country of towns and modules, and drop your megadungeon in the wilderness somewhere. Then you can steer them towards it if they flounder, or they can abandon it if they get bored.

This is probably the best thing to do. It gives them the ability to decide mid-venture. Though if you are all new to the game a dungeon simulator might be easier to run & easier for characters to play through, as has been my personal experience.

[Trask]

Thank you guys, that seems like a good idea. I'll have to find or make a higher level one than the ones I had in mind but that seems like a good way to get the best of both worlds.

[Traab]

You could always do a bit of both. Have them work on a mega dungeon, one that allows them to backtrack and return home in various ways. Then have the choices they make, the areas they clear, effect things back home. The path down the left according to your scout/rogue/whatever seems to be full of beasts of all different sorts. You go down that path and it attracts merchants involved with things like leather armor and clothes, various part merchants for things like spell components or various trades that would use animal parts for them, which in turn will gradually attract more npcs that would be interested in that sort of thing. The various classes that wear leather armor, spell casters of various types, and everyone could have different requests to make of your party which gives them goals to work towards beyond "Whats in the next room?"

Or they take the right hand path your scout says seems to be filled with various golems, elementals, brigands, underground humanoid races, whatever. Now you are bringing back metals, armor, weapons, more spell components and such and that in turn is bringing in a different group of merchants and npcs with varying quests to ask you to help them with.

If they decide to be methodical and keep back tracking to explore every area, the city grows larger, but the stuff is lower level because instead of bringing back higher and higher levels of magical metals or animal parts, you are bringing back low to mid level supplies of everything. Which in turn could be used to attract roving bands of npc adventurers looking to push further than your team is willing to go in a single direction. Thus adding competition and possible "pvp" with dm controlled groups.

Feel free to tweak all that to fit your campaign idea, but it could also easily tie into a wider world once they get done plumbing the depths of this mega dungeon and want to try something different, because now they have a home base in a thriving metropolis where rumors of bigger issues in the wide world can easily trickle in as plot hooks for your group.

[Psikerlord]

I would personally go with sandbox (not necessarily hex, any map will do). I dislike being "boxed into" megadungeons (but love little episodic dungeons).

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Why not both?

Something I've been toying with for a while is a setting that takes place entirely (or almost entirely) inside a truly massive megadungeon. Maybe it's a conglomeration of derelict spaceships, or the surface is inhospitable, or maybe no one has ever seen the sky and this ever-shifting complex of tunnels and rooms is all they know. Maybe get really weird with it and have the rooms and structures within the "world" not follow the same aesthetic, as though they're being pulled from elsewhere. Have entire civilizations built here and adapted to different parts of the "dungeon world."

[kyoryu]

A properly run megadungeon *is* a sandbox. :smallbiggrin:

[Corsair14]

I love a good mega dungeon and plan on Undermountain in the future for my group along with other not as large but more dangerous dungeons, but it will be an optional thing. I prefer a guided sandbox after the initial starting quest and kind of pull the Skyrim-talking-to-the-bartender(or whoever) for hints at what is going on in the local area for them to figure out what to do, whether its stories of lights in old ruins, mining overseers complaining about missing miners, to mysterious murders stumping the constables. All are part of an over reaching campaign direction and tie in somehow for the most part while there still being a couple filler quests. Takes longer to prepare overall but leaves the players thinking they are in control when they are actually being guided. Complete sandboxes are great but are difficult to DM and usually amount to random encounter after random encounter until the DM can design something on the fly.

[Grac]

I just want to point out that the Caverns of Thracia are not a megadungeon. This isn't pedantry, either. A megadungeon, as said earlier in the thread, basically is a sandbox itself, and can serve as the basis of the campaign. The caverns can be an intro to the campaign, and things can revolve around it for a few levels, but it will be exhausted, and other adventures needed.

[Trask]

I just want to point out that the Caverns of Thracia are not a megadungeon. This isn't pedantry, either. A megadungeon, as said earlier in the thread, basically is a sandbox itself, and can serve as the basis of the campaign. The caverns can be an intro to the campaign, and things can revolve around it for a few levels, but it will be exhausted, and other adventures needed.

Thats a good point. I guess its a miscommunication to me a megadungeon is just a large and expansive dungeon which spans a large amount of levels. Ive never actually run a true blue 50 level megadungeon and i dont really plan to, so a fault on my part. I mean more of a mini megadungeon, because the caverns themselves will still take a very large amount of sessions to complete and the players will have to be in there for a while.

[kyoryu]

Thats a good point. I guess its a miscommunication to me a megadungeon is just a large and expansive dungeon which spans a large amount of levels. Ive never actually run a true blue 50 level megadungeon and i dont really plan to, so a fault on my part. I mean more of a mini megadungeon, because the caverns themselves will still take a very large amount of sessions to complete and the players will have to be in there for a while.

To me, a megadungeon isn't something you "clear" or "complete". It's an environment, one that changes and evolves over time, has factions and politics internal to it.

The difference between a dungeon and a megadungeon, to me, isn't really one of scale, but of the type of play that occurs there. Honestly, the idea of a 50 level dungeon that you go from room to room clearing sounds incredibly tedious and dull.

[Trask]

To me, a megadungeon isn't something you "clear" or "complete". It's an environment, one that changes and evolves over time, has factions and politics internal to it.

The difference between a dungeon and a megadungeon, to me, isn't really one of scale, but of the type of play that occurs there. Honestly, the idea of a 50 level dungeon that you go from room to room clearing sounds incredibly tedious and dull.

I agree, but I think even a small dungeon can be brought alive with enough work from the dungeon master. Caverns of Thracia almost has this sort of factionalism built in to the dungeon itself which is why I like it so much. I suppose my perception of a megadungeon is flawed, but I think the general gist of my original post comes across. Starting players off in a town sandbox with small modules and hooks or in a town near a large, multileveled 1-5 or more dungeon.

[Tanarii]

How many different sessions, and how many players per session, are you expecting to run a week? Are they going to be walk-ins / pick-up groups? Are you allowing mixed levels?

If the answer is like mine, lots, yes, and yes, you're probably going to find yourself going fairly old-school: One mega-dungeon, or many large dungeons (caverns of Thracia sized) with relatively deadly wilderness in between. In other words, a fairly 'classic' way of playing the game, unless you want to go hex-crawl. Otherwise you're ability to control the simultaneous nature of the campaign will spin out of your control. You'll also need to find some grognard blogs on the importance of strict timekeeping (to paraphrase Gygax), because the simultaneous nature of the campaign also makes keeping some semblance of control difficult.

If you aren't playing for many different groups adventuring at the same time, make sure you pick something that will keep your players interested in a megadungeon or sandbox. (IMO I see the former as typically being a subset of the latter.) There are dynamics in a multi-party campaign world that proceeds with or without a given PC that just don't come into play otherwise ... including IMO a huge part of what truly makes a sandbox a sandbox. It's not just the ability of players to interact with the world, it's other players interacting with the world before them in other sessions, changing what this player is experiencing in the world, that truly brings a sandbox to life. If you have only one group of players, you have to simulate it as best you can. Of course, given that's what most DMs already do, it shouldn't be too hard. :smallwink:

Edit: Also, if you're interested in a 5e large megadungeon-y environment that's focused as opposed to sandbox, or at least how to replicate that idea, check out Angry DM's project. It's not complete, but to be honest with his large scale map as it is now and his overview of the flow, you could probably flat-out wing it at this point and make up the details of the encounters. Or at least fill them out fast enough.
http://theangrygm.com/category/megadungeon/

[Trask]

How many different sessions, and how many players per session, are you expecting to run a week? Are they going to be walk-ins / pick-up groups? Are you allowing mixed levels?

If the answer is like mine, lots, yes, and yes, you're probably going to find yourself going fairly old-school: One mega-dungeon, or many large dungeons (caverns of Thracia sized) with relatively deadly wilderness in between. In other words, a fairly 'classic' way of playing the game, unless you want to go hex-crawl. Otherwise you're ability to control the simultaneous nature of the campaign will spin out of your control. You'll also need to find some grognard blogs on the importance of strict timekeeping (to paraphrase Gygax), because the simultaneous nature of the campaign also makes keeping some semblance of control difficult.

If you aren't playing for many different groups adventuring at the same time, make sure you pick something that will keep your players interested in a megadungeon or sandbox. (IMO I see the former as typically being a subset of the latter.) There are dynamics in a multi-party campaign world that proceeds with or without a given PC that just don't come into play otherwise ... including IMO a huge part of what truly makes a sandbox a sandbox. It's not just the ability of players to interact with the world, it's other players interacting with the world before them in other sessions, changing what this player is experiencing in the world, that truly brings a sandbox to life. If you have only one group of players, you have to simulate it as best you can. Of course, given that's what most DMs already do, it shouldn't be too hard. :smallwink:

Edit: Also, if you're interested in a 5e large megadungeon-y environment that's focused as opposed to sandbox, or at least how to replicate that idea, check out Angry DM's project. It's not complete, but to be honest with his large scale map as it is now and his overview of the flow, you could probably flat-out wing it at this point and make up the details of the encounters. Or at least fill them out fast enough.
http://theangrygm.com/category/megadungeon/

Its probably gonna be for about 4-6 players and its not gonna be a pickup game, but i expect a fair amount of fluctuation in attendance. I will though look up some of those blogs that talk about keeping time as it is something I could stand to improve on, particularly in the dungeon itself.

[Tanarii]

Its probably gonna be for about 4-6 players and its not gonna be a pickup game, but i expect a fair amount of fluctuation in attendance. I will though look up some of those blogs that talk about keeping time as it is something I could stand to improve on, particularly in the dungeon itself.
There are two kinds of time-keeping. One is campaign level, and the other is session level.

I was referring to campaign-level: If a PC starts a 11 day adventure starting on campaign day 5 that will last 2 sessions spaced 3 IRL days apart, the player can't bring the same character to an adventure starting on campaign day 10 in a session the next day. And downtime days have to be carefully thought out by players. Because campaign time doesn't stop for PCs and sometimes there are things going on simultaneous campaign days and overlapping in different sessions. But since you aren't doing that, now I'm just babbling. ;)

How strict you want to be on a session-level is up to you. But if you're playing with strict logistics, wandering monsters based on time, and/or other time-dependent factors, you're kind of committing yourself to somewhat strict. Edit: But that's almost an entirely different discussion. However, D&D 5e certainly allows you to run semi-strict logistics if you want. (And hand wave them away if you don't.)