Need Advice for MoMF build

[Stryyke]

So I've decided to do a Wildshape Ranger in to Master of Many Forms build. But I kind of have a small issue. I will be starting at class level 3. From what I've seen thusfar, there are no legitimate ways to get Wildshape early, so that means I have to get through 2 levels before I can wildshape at all, and 3-4 before I can make it a major part of my character. Now here's the kicker, I want to do this as a pseudodragon. So what I need help with, is ideas on how to keep a non-combat pseudodragon viable long enough to get the shape changing ability he will need. And let me see if I can preempt a few comments; Druid is a no-go. My GM doesn't feel that druids make sense in the context of the campaign, since it's almost exclusively in a big city environment. Once I get 2 or 3 daily shapechanges, I should be golden; but I need to keep my tiny size dragon alive long enough to get there.

[The Glyphstone]

Cityscape has a whole section on Urban Druids, have you tried running that past the DM?

[D4rkh0rus]

If I remember correctly, you could, take moms at lvl 2 if you took a level In a class that gave you endurance and the divine minion template, which gives you at will wild shape into a set of animals, moms effectively allows you to wild shape into anything that the class itself allows you to, so effectively at will wild shape.

Super cheesy? Yes.
Does it work? Technically yes.
Should you talk to your DM about nerfing it a bit and letting you use it? Yes.

Edit: here's the link to the divine minion template, it's part of a web enhancement (link (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a))

[Stryyke]

Yea. He's pretty adamant. We had a pixie and a druid earlier, and he said such a thing should be rare in the setting, so we cannot take them again.

[Stryyke]

True, divine minion is one way to get there. And I haven't ruled it out completely yet, but I would prefer not to be beholden to a deity. Besides, if I went that direction, I would probably have to talk my GM into it; and he kills off any character he considers "power gaming." I would rather do it the non-cheesy way if only to keep my character alive.

[D4rkh0rus]

True, divine minion is one way to get there. And I haven't ruled it out completely yet, but I would prefer not to be beholden to a deity. Besides, if I went that direction, I would probably have to talk my GM into it; and he kills off any character he considers "power gaming." I would rather do it the non-cheesy way if only to keep my character alive.
The other way I remember was an MIC item, or maybe a set, of Druid stuff.
Effectively it gave you +4 to your Druid level for wild shape, an extra use per day and I forget what else, but the thing was the +4 it explicitly said that if you class gave you wild shape along the road these counted for that even if you aren't high enuf yet, so like, this item and lvl 1 shape ranger, counts as a fifth level one, letting you wild shape 1/day etc....

Although I think it was worth 20k... Or was it 40...

[Stryyke]

Interesting. Given my complete martial ineptitude, I might be able to sell him on that. We have 27000 to start, and I won't need a ton of items. I will definitely look into that. Question, though. What happens if I take the item off? Is it I just can't use MoMF abilities anymore but I retain the class?

[D4rkh0rus]

Interesting. Given my complete martial ineptitude, I might be able to sell him on that. We have 27000 to start, and I won't need a ton of items. I will definitely look into that. Question, though. What happens if I take the item off? Is it I just can't use MoMF abilities anymore but I retain the class?

If you lose access to its abilities (take it off, anti magic, etc) you stop meeting the prequisites for MoMF.
When you don't meet the prerequisites for a prestige class,
You lose all class abilities including spells from prestige classes.
You do still keep BAB, saves and skills, that's all you keep though.

[eggynack]

The other way I remember was an MIC item, or maybe a set, of Druid stuff.
Effectively it gave you +4 to your Druid level for wild shape, an extra use per day and I forget what else, but the thing was the +4 it explicitly said that if you class gave you wild shape along the road these counted for that even if you aren't high enuf yet, so like, this item and lvl 1 shape ranger, counts as a fifth level one, letting you wild shape 1/day etc....

Although I think it was worth 20k... Or was it 40...
The three sources of wild shape bonus I'm aware of are the trappings of the beast from complete champion, which in concert grant a +1 and cost 56,175 GP, the wild shape amulet, from magic of faerun, which gives +4 for 40,000 GP, and 5th level wild shape if you lack the ability, and, finally, the skin of kaletor from dragon 324, page 75, which gives a +4 to wild shape for 12k GP, and grants wild shape as a 4th level druid (?) if you lack the ability, but gives some penalties to charisma and wild empathy. So, probably the amulet is the one needed if you want to do this without any personal wild shape capability.

Anyways, if not druid, for its lack of urban capacity (though, again, you can totally get a druid urban style (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)), maybe urban druid, from dragon compendium? Worse than straight druid for sure, but it looks like it can hold its own for the first five levels, because you can't go too far off course with a riding dog backed by spell castng, and urban shape seems like it can fill wild shape prerequisites. And, obviously, urban is right there in the name.

[Stryyke]

And since that item would grant me 4 extra levels, that means I would be class level 7. That gives me access to 3 wildshapes per day from the word go. Once I get MoMF 7, I can then go back and pick up the two wild ranger levels I need, so that I wouldn't need the item to qualify anymore. Very nice. I think I can sell that without too much trouble.

However, I think it would be only prudent to plan for him saying no. As such, what other ways can my pseudo dragon make himself useful for 3-4 levels if my GM says no?

[D4rkh0rus]

And since that item would grant me 4 extra levels, that means I would be class level 7. That gives me access to 3 wildshapes per day from the word go. Once I get MoMF 7, I can then go back and pick up the two wild ranger levels I need, so that I wouldn't need the item to qualify anymore. Very nice. I think I can sell that without too much trouble.

However, I think it would be only prudent to plan for him saying no. As such, what other ways can my pseudo dragon make himself useful for 3-4 levels if my GM says no?

Well, by then, you just roll wizard and break his game, making him rethink his life decisions.

No idea though, if he nopes everything, then either accept that he doesn't want you to make that Druid, or think about playing it in another group...

[eggynack]

If you lose access to its abilities (take it off, anti magic, etc) you stop meeting the prequisites for MoMF.
When you don't meet the prerequisites for a prestige class,
You lose all class abilities including spells from prestige classes.
You do still keep BAB, saves and skills, that's all you keep though.
I don't necessarily agree on this one. By the DMG, the prerequisite is only needed to take the first level of a class, and you've already done that.

Edit: However, there is an argument that might work in spite of that. In particular, improved wild shape isn't wild shape. It merely improves and uses wild shape that you have. Thus, if you don't have wild shape, then you still have improved wild shape but it just doesn't seem to do much of anything.

[Stryyke]

So you are saying that, since the first level of MoMF grants wildshape; it will retroactively qualify me for MoMF even if I lose the item?

[eggynack]

So you are saying that, since the first level of MoMF grants wildshape; it will retroactively qualify me for MoMF even if I lose the item?
No, cause I don't think it grants wild shape. However, prerequisites as they apply to prestige classes have a specific definition, and that definition does not cause you to lose prestige class abilities when you lose the prerequisites.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There's going to be a non-cheesy way to get early Wild Shape working, which means that what you really need is a way to be useful for the levels leading into it. Between the Ranger's skills and the Pseudodragon being a tiny creature with blindsense and telepathy, you should be alright utility-wise; it's combat that needs help. And we have... one feat to work with, I guess, since you need the other for Alertness? Or are flaws allowed?

Ability Focus (Poison) might be your best, simplest bet. Pseudodragon poison is nasty stuff; "sleep for one minute" translates to "coup de grace from the fighter next turn." You have a full BAB and you're tiny; you shouldn't have too much trouble hitting, and Con will presumably be your best stat. (Those same factors should keep you alive in melee once you arrive). If you start with a 16 there, you can force a DC 18 Fort save every round; that's a pretty lethal offense right there.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's going to be a non-cheesy way to get early Wild Shape working, which means that what you really need is a way to be useful for the levels leading into it. Between the Ranger's skills and the Pseudodragon being a tiny creature with blindsense and telepathy, you should be alright utility-wise; it's combat that needs help. And we have... one feat to work with, I guess, since you need the other for Alertness? Or are flaws allowed?

Ability Focus (Poison) might be your best, simplest bet. Pseudodragon poison is nasty stuff; "sleep for one minute" translates to "coup de grace from the fighter next turn." You have a full BAB and you're tiny; you shouldn't have too much trouble hitting, and Con will presumably be your best stat. (Those same factors should keep you alive in melee once you arrive). If you start with a 16 there, you can force a DC 18 Fort save every round; that's a pretty lethal offense right there.Using poisonous bites is an ill-advised tactic for a pseudodragon, given that he has 0' reach and he'll be taking AoOs for entering opponents' spaces. Instead of Ability Focus, you'll need to take Aberration Blood followed by Inhuman Reach. I'd suggest the Extended Reach feat, but you need to be Small or Larger, because Arborea forbid that Tiny creatures get any love. I hope flaws are allowed, because you'll make a pretty poor melee character, given you can't actually attack anything.

Alternately, take Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle), which you retrain later once you get to shapeshifting. See if you can apply your poison to your acid attack.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Using poisonous bites is an ill-advised tactic for a pseudodragon, given that he has 0' reach and he'll be taking AoOs for entering opponents' spaces. Instead of Ability Focus, you'll need to take Aberration Blood followed by Inhuman Reach. I'd suggest the Extended Reach feat, but you need to be Small or Larger, because Arborea forbid that Tiny creatures get any love. I hope flaws are allowed, because you'll make a pretty poor melee character, given you can't actually attack anything.

Alternately, take Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle), which you retrain later once you get to shapeshifting. See if you can apply your poison to your acid attack.
Ouch, forgot about that. Though the feat crunch starts to hurt; if you can't take a flaw, you'd have to push Alertness back to 6th and Master of Many Forms to 7th.

I considered Shape Soulmeld, but it's hard to get it to be useful with feats alone. The single feat only gets you 1d6 damage; two feats (any of the (color) feats for +1 essentia) gets you to 2d6, but that's still not very much and is painful without flaws.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ouch, forgot about that. Though the feat crunch starts to hurt; if you can't take a flaw, you'd have to push Alertness back to 6th and Master of Many Forms to 7th.

I considered Shape Soulmeld, but it's hard to get it to be useful with feats alone. The single feat only gets you 1d6 damage; two feats (any of the (color) feats for +1 essentia) gets you to 2d6, but that's still not very much and is painful without flaws.Might be worth the one feat if he can apply his poison to the soulmeld's effects. I'd suggest the Spit Poison feat, but that, too, requires two feats to get (Ability Focus as a prereq), AND it reduces the DC by -2.

[Stryyke]

Just to clear up one potential issue, the pseudo dragon's poison is in it's tail. It's tail has a 5' reach, even though the rest of his melee is 0'. Do you really think that will be enough to keep me viable for a couple levels?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just to clear up one potential issue, the pseudo dragon's poison is in it's tail. It's tail has a 5' reach, even though the rest of his melee is 0'. Do you really think that will be enough to keep me viable for a couple levels?...So it is. Depending on what you fight, maybe. Anything immune to poison gives you some serious issues, though, and undead zombies and skeletons are pretty popular low-level enemies. Too bad you can't take Power Attack and Cleave, so you can attack another enemy when your first one drops. I'd suggest a mighty cleaving weapon, but I don't think you can use it on your tail and still have poison.

[Stryyke]

Oh, and yes I can take flaws to get some, much needed, perks.

[Stryyke]

I'm a bit confused about the wording of flyby attack. Can you clarify form me?

"When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move."

Is the premise that I can essentially "split" a single move action, allowing me to 30' dive in and 30' climb out with a tail strike in between?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Oh, and yes I can take flaws to get some, much needed, perks.Which means you get three feats, then.

I don't get why Aberration Blood requires you to be humanoid. Then maybe you could take Inhuman Reach.

Power Attack and Cleave might be nice, but that works best with 10' reach.

Flyby Attack is a must, though, since you can fly.

Is there any way to give your tail the aptitude ability? The Long Reach feat would give you 5', 10', and 15' reach on your turns. Doesn't do much for AoOs, but a Tiny creature with 15' reach would be great. Get yourself a +1 necklace of natural weapons that applies to your tail attack, with the aptitude ability, and take the Long Reach feat for up to 15' of reach. Power Attack and Cleave, then take down two creatures within 35' of each other each round via sleep poison.


I'm a bit confused about the wording of flyby attack. Can you clarify form me?

"When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move."

Is the premise that I can essentially "split" a single move action, allowing me to 30' dive in and 30' climb out with a tail strike in between?Exactly. You just have to move at least 5' before and 5' after.

[Stryyke]

And finally, the rules for AoO means I have to move within threatened squares, I think. If I can get my tail range up to 10', I should be able to do a flyby attack without getting close enough to trigger an AoO, unless the opponent has reach. Is that correct?

Incidentally, can dragons use their front claws to manipulate things? Or would I have to shape change into a monkey if I needed to manipulate something?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh, totally forgot! Wild Cohort! Get a riding dog buddy; it's very nearly as good as a Druid's at this level, which means "very nearly as good as the Fighter." Will let you be useful when you're stuck fighting undead.


Is there any way to give your tail the aptitude ability? The Long Reach feat would give you 5', 10', and 15' reach on your turns. Doesn't do much for AoOs, but a Tiny creature with 15' reach would be great. Get yourself a +1 necklace of natural weapons that applies to your tail attack, with the aptitude ability, and take the Long Reach feat for up to 15' of reach.
If the tail has a 5ft reach, I wouldn't worry about trying to increase it; you could do an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the aptitude ability, but by that point you'll have enough MoMF levels for it not to matter.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And finally, the rules for AoO means I have to move within threatened squares, I think. If I can get my tail range up to 10', I should be able to do a flyby attack without getting close enough to trigger an AoO, unless the opponent has reach. Is that correct?Correct. And since Long Reach grants 15' of reach (and your tail would be aptitude, meaning it triggers the 5', 10', and 15' reach options), you can Flyby Attack even creatures with normal reach (unless they're Large+ with a reach weapon).


Incidentally, can dragons use their front claws to manipulate things? Or would I have to shape change into a monkey if I needed to manipulate something?Dragons typically have prehensile claws on their forelimbs, so yes, you can manipulate things just like any creature with hands.


If the tail has a 5ft reach, I wouldn't worry about trying to increase it; you could do an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the aptitude ability, but by that point you'll have enough MoMF levels for it not to matter.He needs at least 10' of reach, else his Flyby Attacks will trigger AoOs from the spaces he passes through when approaching to make attacks. [edit] And he'll want as much battlefield coverage as possible to make the most use of Cleave.

[Stryyke]

Thanks Guys. I think that's enough to make this viable. I appreciate the help.

[Stryyke]

Sorry to revive this, but I needed one more piece of advice on this build. I've been debating starting scout 1/wildshape ranger 1 instead of wildshape ranger 2. Is the extra 8 skill points and skirmish worth delaying wildshape?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sorry to revive this, but I needed one more piece of advice on this build. I've been debating starting scout 1/wildshape ranger 1 instead of wildshape ranger 2. Is the extra 8 skill points and skirmish worth delaying wildshape?Are you taking Swift Hunter in the next couple of levels? Then maybe. But if so, you'll want pounce, which means a level in spirit lion totem barbarian, which means another dip.

If you don't mind delaying for two entire levels and spending an extra feat, this might be worth it (especially if you also take Improved Unarmed Strike so you gain a bunch of extra attacks on a pounce in addition to your natural attacks, but there are items that grant IUS, like the fanged ring [which also grants Improved Natural Attack {Unarmed Strike}], so maybe you should buy one for 10K). However, does your group play with multiclass penalties? If so, definitely not.

Swift Hunter, however, doesn't improve with anything that isn't ranger. So Swift Hunter might not be that great. Either way, make sure you buff your skirmish damage as much as you can. Check one of the scout handbooks around.

[Stryyke]

Probably not, then. Also, considering that I will be ECL10 when I get wildshape . . . Man my GM is brutal. We are starting at ECL8 with only 3-4 class levels. Pseudodragon cost me 2 of those. Anyway. I'll be Ranger5/MMF7/2lvls of something else when we hit epic. Brutal.

[Crake]

I feel like it's worth noting that without actually having wildshape from the ranger, your wildshape duration would be 0, since master of many forms does not actually increase the duration at all. This means, that if you were to ever lose the item that grants you "+4 druid levels for determining wildshaping ability" while you would not lose your class abilities, your wildshape duration would become 0 and you would become completely useless. Just felt like it was worth mentioning.

Edit:

Probably not, then. Also, considering that I will be ECL10 when I get wildshape . . . Man my GM is brutal. We are starting at ECL8 with only 3-4 class levels. Pseudodragon cost me 2 of those. Anyway. I'll be Ranger5/MMF7/2lvls of something else when we hit epic. Brutal.

Pseudodragon isn't costing you 2 class levels, it's costing you 5, 2 from HD and 3 from level adjustment. If you're starting at ECL8, can't you just... start as a human, get 5 levels of wildshape ranger and 3 levels of master of many forms?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Probably not, then. Also, considering that I will be ECL10 when I get wildshape . . . Man my GM is brutal. We are starting at ECL8 with only 3-4 class levels. Pseudodragon cost me 2 of those. Anyway. I'll be Ranger5/MMF7/2lvls of something else when we hit epic. Brutal.With 15' of reach, Power Attack, and Cleave, I'd suggest buying a fanged ring and finding some source of extra bonus damage, like adding unarmed strikes to your necklace of natural attacks (by adding +600 gp and the cost of enhancements to your necklace) and adding a stacked weapon crystal onto it. And by 'stacked weapon crystal,' I mean, go to the MIC and look up the rules on stacking magic item qualities, and start adding a bunch of weapon crystal abilities onto one weapon crystal. +4d6 or so energy damage on your unarmed strikes would be a decent source of bonus damage. Also add mighty cleaving to your necklace, as well, for an extra Cleave attack.

So fly around, using your poison to drop as many enemies as possible each round using Cleave, and when that's not feasible, use your unarmed strikes to deal a lot of bonus damage. Use your reach and flight to avoid retaliation as much as possible. Consider taking Snap Kick in the future.