Psionic body + Feat Leech= Infinte Hp???

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Psionic body says


Psionic Body [Psionic]

Your mind reinforces your body.
Benefit

When you take this feat, you gain 2 hit points for each psionic feat you have (including this one). Whenever you take a new psionic feat, you gain 2 more hit points.



And Feat Leech says


Feat Leech
You can use another’s psionic or metapsionic feats for yourself. You make a melee touch attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#touchAttacks) against a target. If successful, you immediately are familiar with the target’s psionic and metapsionic feats, if any, and you can choose a number of these feats to “leech” equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum one).
While the power lasts, you are treated as if you possessed the stolen feats, despite the fact that you have more feats than normally allowed. During this same period, the target can make no use of the stolen feats. When the power’s duration expires, you lose access to the feats, and the target gains immediate use of them. This transfer occurs regardless of the distance between you and the target.
If the duration of feat leech is extended by the use of a metapsionic feat, the target gains a Will saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#reflex) every 10 minutes beyond the normal duration. If this save succeeds, the power’s duration ends. If the target is killed before the duration expires, you immediately lose the benefit of the stolen feats.
You cannot steal a feat for which you do not meet the prerequisites, if any. However, you can use a stolen feat as the prerequisite for another stolen feat.
Augment

For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s save DC increases by 1.



So if you have psionic body you gain a +2 hp forever and when you gain a psionic feat you gain +2 hp... forever. If thos is correct then when you manifest this power you gain your Wis modifier *2 in hp every time you manifest it. It soesn't say anything about you having to keep the Feat it just says you have to "take" the feat. A synomim for taken is "Stolen"
Which if you manifest as many time as you can in a day you could have

(X/3) * (2Y)= HP/DAY

Where X equals you maximum power points and Y equals your Wis score


at first possible lvl4 (15/3 * 10)= 50 hp/day
at 5lvl he could be making (19/3 or 8)*(10)= 80 hp/day
at 10lvl he could be making (52/3 or 17)*(10)= 170hp/day
at 15lvl he could be making (104/3 or 36)*(10)= 360hp/day
at 20lvl he could be making (157/3 or 52)*(10)= 520hp/day


at first possible lvl3 (18/3 *2)= 20 hp/day
at 5lvl It could be making (37/3 or y)*(4) = 48 hp/day
at 10lvl It could be making (105/3 or y)*(4) = 144hp/day
at 15vl It could be making (230/3 or y)*(4) = 308hp/day
at 20lvl It could be making (393/3 or y)*(4) = 524hp/day


Added:
Awaken Intensified Cat
Eduite10/Thallherd10
{Str} 10-0 {Dex} 20-5 {Con} 14-2 {Int} 60-25 {Wis} 16-3 {Cha} 18-4
[Feat]
Flaw[vulnerable]: un-finished
Flaw[vulnerable]: un-finished


un-finished

un-finished

[rrwoods]

Seems like this would work similarly with Chameleon's floating feat; +2 hp every day forever.

[Inevitability]

It seems to work okay as long as you can justify the taken=leached substitution you seem to be making. The HP output numbers-wise isn't bad either.

Nice find!

[Calthropstu]

Not many gms would rule in your favor on that.

I know I wouldn't. Though I would rule a +2 hp while you had the feat.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Seems a bit of a stretch to equate "stolen from another" and this particular use of "taken."

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Seems a bit of a stretch to equate "stolen from another" and this particular use of "taken."
It doesn't seem to be a stretch to me and here is why (though I am not saying this isn't cheese, its like cheese mountain"

The definition we are using for Taken is

to get into one's hold or possession by voluntary action
I voluntary took the feat into my possession. Possession's root word is possess

...While the power lasts, you are treated as if you possessed the stolen feats...

so I *take* the feat

Whenever you take a new psionic feat, you gain 2 more hit points.


After some research I came to the conclusion that if you (or your psi-crystal) take the following feats you will get the maximum effect from the power


Twin power
Metapower (Twin power)+4 twin
Metapower (Twin power)+2 twin
Metapower (Twin power) Free Twin

If you do do this you can manifest a
{[Feat leech twined] twined}

This gives you an equation equal to
(2Y)*2*2 feats in one casting


Minimum lvl
This is how I would do it
Elan Eduite3
flaw: twin power
flaw: Psionic body
1: Metapower (Twin power)
1lvl Eduite: Psicrystal affinity (1Flaw:wild talent, 2Flaw: Psionic meditation lvl1: Psionic talent, lvl3:Metapower (Twin power))
1lvl Eduite: Metapower (Twin power)
3: Psicrystal Containment


now that i think about it this is also a Infinite Power point build because it doesn't say you can't steal the same feat multiple times
1st round :so what you would do is manifest this power (feat leach twined) on your psicrystal and take its Psionic meditation once, Metapower (Twin power) once and Psionic talent 14
2nd step+: both you and your psicryrstal Regain focus as a move action, then you manifest the power again. this time only take 16 Psionic talent


(with a wisdom score of 14) If you do this for 6 rounds in the morning when getting ready you will have *looks at calculator* *inhale deep breath*


+4652 more Power Points than the day before
+197 more Health than the day before
-18 Power points


36 in game second, its all it takes to get a Dm to throw the nearest improvised weapon at you and ban Psionics...wow

[Necroticplague]

That's not infinite HP, that's an arbitrarily large amount of HP. At any given point in time, based on how many feats stolen, you have a finite, calculable amount of HP.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Agreed I will clarify that more health than a 10 con Barbarian with a lvl 3 and 1/3 high then thine self in 36 seconds is still alas not infinity
Power point though +4652? Might as well be who can use 4652 power points in one day, much less 1000 rounds worth a day ( 50,0500 )

If we have 1000 rounds worth of this power then we will have to many power points for a lvl 20 manifest to manifest powers in a 24 day
14400 is the number of rounds in a day, the average psion can spend a maximum of 273,600 power points in a 24 hour day. we have nearly doubled that, we can not numerically use enough power points

Edit: Coming back here after a couple years; 4652 pp in a day is quite easy considering time tricks.... i was dumb back then lol

[Zombimode]

The definition we are using for Taken is

I voluntary took the feat into my possession. Possession's root word is possess

so I *take* the feat

Whenever you have to resort to mental gymnastics and quoting dictionary definitions as part of your argument, you know that you are talking BS.


36 in game second, its all it takes to get a Dm to throw the nearest improvised weapon at you and ban Psionics...wow

...no. Here is what will happen:

DM: "The obvious intent of the feat Psionic Body is to provide a bonus to HP equal to Number if Psionic Feats * 2. The line you base your argument around is a reminder text, poorly worded as it may be, that the HP bonus provided by the feat is always derived of your current number of Psionic feats instead of the number you had when you took it. The sentence is written in this way probably because the writer did not thought of the possibility if losing feats (although he or she should have since loosing feats was a possibility that was there from the start of 3.5 thanks to Energy Drain).
Thus the interaction between Psionic Body and Feat Leech is a follows: while you have leeched psionic feats, your HP total gets updated according to the total number of psionic feats you have. If the effect of the spells ends your HP total, again, gets updated according to the total number of psionic feats you have (which most likely will result in a loss of HP since these are not Temp HP)."

Also, whats up with this notion that DMs are just morons that will just knee-jerk ban entire books/subsystem the instant something irritates that out of that book/subsystem instead of considerate beings that combine a solid rules knowledge with the active goal of providing a good and fun experience for everyone at the table while maintaining their artistic vision the have for their adventure/campaign?

[eggynack]

That's not infinite HP, that's an arbitrarily large amount of HP. At any given point in time, based on how many feats stolen, you have a finite, calculable amount of HP.
[anti-pedantry]I'd call it infinite. Given sufficient time, you can have more HP than any finite quantity of HP. If you consider the set of all possible HP quantities, you thus achieve infinity by the classical mathematical definition. Sure, if you consider as a limiting factor some end of life or otherwise end of time/the universe, then you obviously have some finite maximum, but I'm sure there are fancy ways around those limits through the use of other optimizational insanity.[/anti-pedantry]

Anyway, I don't really agree with your (the OP's) argument by definition. I think that the word "take" there is referring strictly to the definition "select", referring to the feat selection process.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

*snip*

DM: "The obvious intent of the feat Psionic Body is to provide a bonus to HP equal to Number if Psionic Feats * 2. The line you base your argument around is a reminder text, poorly worded as it may be, that the HP bonus provided by the feat is always derived of your current number of Psionic feats instead of the number you had when you took it. The sentence is written in this way probably because the writer did not thought of the possibility if losing feats (although he or she should have since loosing feats was a possibility that was there from the start of 3.5 thanks to Energy Drain).
Thus the interaction between Psionic Body and Feat Leech is a follows: while you have leeched psionic feats, your HP total gets updated according to the total number of psionic feats you have. If the effect of the spells ends your HP total, again, gets updated according to the total number of psionic feats you have (which most likely will result in a loss of HP since these are not Temp HP)."

Also, whats up with this notion that DMs are just morons that will just knee-jerk ban entire books/subsystem the instant something irritates that out of that book/subsystem instead of considerate beings that combine a solid rules knowledge with the active goal of providing a good and fun experience for everyone at the table while maintaining their artistic vision the have for their adventure/campaign?


well first that was a joke. second I am doing this as it would be RAW not RAI which is what you are doing.

First it doesn't mention that it is current number of psionic feat it just says to the number you take, thus your argument is invalid; Second, the writer would have known because the Power: feat leech and the feats:Psionic body and Psionic talent are all in the same book. there is only 1 feat i used directly in the build that is not from that book and it is metapower

[Inevitability]

[anti-pedantry]I'd call it infinite. Given sufficient time, you can have more HP than any finite quantity of HP. If you consider the set of all possible HP quantities, you thus achieve infinity by the classical mathematical definition. Sure, if you consider as a limiting factor some end of life or otherwise end of time/the universe, then you obviously have some finite maximum, but I'm sure there are fancy ways around those limits through the use of other optimizational insanity.[/anti-pedantry]

Anyway, I don't really agree with your (the OP's) argument by definition. I think that the word "take" there is referring strictly to the definition "select", referring to the feat selection process.

Anyone else who thinks it's disturbing how often advanced mathematics are applicable to optimization debate?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Given sufficient time, you can have more HP than any finite quantity of HP.
That's just another way of saying "numbers just keep going". You can't have more HP than any random finite quantity, only more than any given finite quantity. The set of all possible hp quantities is N, and this trick does not magically add infinity to that set.

[Ruethgar]

It would be nigh infinite, but it would not be infinite, just like Pun Pun is NI and the Omnisipher is Infinite.

[Necroticplague]

[anti-pedantry]I'd call it infinite. Given sufficient time, you can have more HP than any finite quantity of HP. If you consider the set of all possible HP quantities, you thus achieve infinity by the classical mathematical definition. Sure, if you consider as a limiting factor some end of life or otherwise end of time/the universe, then you obviously have some finite maximum, but I'm sure there are fancy ways around those limits through the use of other optimizational insanity.[/anti-pedantry]

Anyway, I don't really agree with your (the OP's) argument by definition. I think that the word "take" there is referring strictly to the definition "select", referring to the feat selection process.

[counter pedantry]Conversely, for any HP measure you get out of this, you can produce an integer that is larger than this. Thus, it's not infinite[/counter pedantry]


Anyone else who thinks it's disturbing how often advanced mathematics are applicable to optimization debate?Not really. I mean, advanced mathematics were made to better describe reality. Just analyzing DnD at it's basic level requires probability and basic algorithms. It seems reasonable that a sufficiently detailed analysis of anything should turn up advanced mathematics, since advanced mathematics were made to enable detailed analysis.


It would be nigh infinite, but it would not be infinite, just like Pun Pun is NI and the Omnisipher is Infinite.
Actually, Omniscifier is also only only arbitrarily large, based on how many times the damage has looped. If you let the loop run infinite times, it's infinite, but any finite value of loops produces a finite Masoschism value. I'm not sure anything that's truly infinite exists in DnD (aside from SR, in form of Spell Immunity). At best, you have 'unboundedely large', 'arbitrarily large', and similar. But not actual infinite.

[Echch]

Actually, Omniscifier is also only only arbitrarily large, based on how many times the damage has looped. If you let the loop run infinite times, it's infinite, but any finite value of loops produces a finite Masoschism value. I'm not sure anything that's truly infinite exists in DnD (aside from SR, in form of Spell Immunity). At best, you have 'unboundedely large', 'arbitrarily large', and similar. But not actual infinite.

I mean, sure, the Masoschism value is (Damage/10)*Number of Loops, but the Number of Loops that can resolve in a single round is "infinite", similar to the way a D2-Crusaders (assuming you consider the combo working) attack is "infinite".
Still, I think a lot of spells could potentially deal infinite damage, provided we have a target with actually infinite hit point. Avasculate and Psychic Crush come to mind.

[Pleh]

Actually, Omniscifier is also only only arbitrarily large, based on how many times the damage has looped. If you let the loop run infinite times, it's infinite, but any finite value of loops produces a finite Masoschism value. I'm not sure anything that's truly infinite exists in DnD (aside from SR, in form of Spell Immunity). At best, you have 'unboundedely large', 'arbitrarily large', and similar. But not actual infinite.

The damage loop is performed by the magic of the universe, not the character. How many loops are performed will be limited by the duration of the spells that form the loop and the amount of loops that can occur within that time frame. The difference between infinite and near infinite in this case is whether each loop takes actually no time or a very small amount of time. If each iterative magic loop takes actually no time, the damage and bonus are actually infinite. If each loop takes any finite time, the damage is finite.

I don't think the RAW here really says that the HP stays after the stolen Feats go away. The feat specifically defines a "stolen" feat as making you "treated as possessing the feat." You can't really redefine how "stolen feats" work without stepping out of RAW into RAI. It doesn't say stealing is the same as taking, it says you are treated as possessing, not treated as having taken. Normally, "possessing" and "having taken" would be synonymous, but if we're nitpicking between what the words say and what they mean, then the argument goes both ways.

I think you are reading meaning into stolen Feats where such interpretation does not exist outside how you want to use it here. If you want to say that the more reasonable reading that the HP goes away with the stolen Feats is wrong because it's not RAW, then I argue that being treated as possessing a feat bypasses the act of having taken the feat, so the HP bonus is never triggered since by RAW you never took the Feats.

Can't have your cake and eat it in this case.

[Calthropstu]

If you're going to rule that losing the feat doesn't result in a loss of hp, then screw feat leech. I'll just use psychic reformation, retake ALL my feats, and gain hp by the dozen.

I still say you will be riducously hard pressed to find a gm to rule in your favor.

[Inevitability]

I still say you will be riducously hard pressed to find a gm to rule in your favor.

And this is totally non-theoretical optimization, after all.

[JoshuaZ]

This is really bad theoretical optimization. Good TO involves a situation where every single step seems reasonable and a DM would ok it, and then you put it all together and you get something ridiculous. This rests on using a wording that may or may not be the RAW but that no DM would say yes to the single step involved.

[Ruethgar]

This is really bad theoretical optimization. Good TO involves a situation where every single step seems reasonable and a DM would ok it, and then you put it all together and you get something ridiculous. This rests on using a wording that may or may not be the RAW but that no DM would say yes to the single step involved.

The Chameleon use mentioned earlier would work, then nested Lucid Dreaming to experience a royal ****ton of days over the course of one Material Plane night to use it over and over to cheesy effect.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

This is really bad theoretical optimization. Good TO involves a situation where every single step seems reasonable and a DM would ok it, and then you put it all together and you get something ridiculous. This rests on using a wording that may or may not be the RAW but that no DM would say yes to the single step involved.

Bad, I didn't think it was bad, originally I thought I would fail miserable because this I believed would have been a well known trick, but it wasn't.:smalltongue:luck me:smalltongue:

I did involve a situation where every single step seems reasonable

Take the Psionic body feat: I don't know how one feat can seem unreasonable to anyone
Manifest power Feat Leech: This is Reasonable if the dm allows Psionics, if the dm doesn't then why are we even in the book in the first place.
The power specifically allows you to take Psionic Feats, Every time you take a Psionic Feat you gain +2 bonus hp.
Use Feat leech to take WHAT THE POWER ALLOWS YOU TO TAKE: Again the ower allows you to take Psionic Talent to gain



+2 hp because you took Psionic Body
n(n+1)/2 were n is the number of Psionic talents you have taken


1, 2 and 3 are the Steps of the trick, 4 is the ridiculous Something that the trick gives. It fits your Rubric Perfectly.

If i were a Dm and i found this out. I would want to design my world around this, how I would do this:

Introduce the Power to the players before the campaign starts, make them play psionic classes
They gain there Psicrystals which would be the {organization they all belong to}'s centers of Power when fighting {main group of enemies}.
The players start having there Psicrystal's take Psionic/Metapower Feats so they can steal it.
If they figure out this particular trick then i would allow it.
Eduites would seem like magical prodigies in the world (the ones who usually take Psionic talent)
psi warriors would be powerful fighters that gain powers to boost there psychical prows (the ones who usually take Psionic body)
Psions and Wilders would be seen as the average Npc with pc classes. (The ones who usually take Metapsionic feats)
Imagine how fun it will be if the Pc knew the gained power from a splinter of there natural psionic power stored in there body, Imagine what how much fun could come from a quest to harness this power


https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M171d2c70e06be1e9e2081f33bce5db46o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=169https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M4ce98e59518f882aeb3cda65e93a49e6o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300 Seraph of the end

[eggynack]

[counter pedantry]Conversely, for any HP measure you get out of this, you can produce an integer that is larger than this. Thus, it's not infinite[/counter pedantry]
[counter-counter-pedantry]That's not actually an argument against a thing being infinite. Consider the set of all natural numbers, one we know to be infinite by definition. One that, in fact, practically serves as the definition for countable infinity. One can trivially apply your argument against this set. After all, for any natural, one can produce a natural number larger than that one, meaning, I suppose, that the first set, theoretically non-infinite naturals, is smaller than the second set, known to be infinite naturals. This line of reasoning would have a set with different cardinality than itself, which is a clear cut contradiction. Really, what we want here is a bijection between this set of possible HP's and the naturals. And, of course, such a bijection is attainable. Take the first quantity of HP that the combo gives, pair it with one, take the total after you do the combo again, pair it with two, and then keep doing that. Every natural number is paired bijectively with an HP total and vice versa, which means the sets are of the same size, infinite.[/counter-counter-pedantry]


Anyone else who thinks it's disturbing how often advanced mathematics are applicable to optimization debate?
Eh, that's just what happens any time the word "infinity" pops up. this particular argument is relatively low level in my book, relying only on standard Cantor cardinality stuff.


That's just another way of saying "numbers just keep going". You can't have more HP than any random finite quantity, only more than any given finite quantity. The set of all possible hp quantities is N, and this trick does not magically add infinity to that set.
Well, yeah, they are just, "Numbers that just keep going." But that just happens to be the definition of infinity. I figure that your N is referring to the natural numbers, which would make sense, but you don't have to add infinity to the set of naturals. It's already an infinite set, to the extent that, when you look up countable infinities, this is one of the few cases where its picture would actually pop up.

[Nifft]

This is very clever & creative, and there's no way in hell I would allow this in actual play.

[AnachroNinja]

It's not infinite because it is limited by the eventual heat death of the universe, which could, given sufficient time and effort and information be calculated. Even without calculation it is a known fact, and that's assuming that the character or his personal demiplane could survive the much earlier super nova event, which is questionable at best.

[Echch]

It's not infinite because it is limited by the eventual heat death of the universe, which could, given sufficient time and effort and information be calculated. Even without calculation it is a known fact, and that's assuming that the character or his personal demiplane could survive the much earlier super nova event, which is questionable at best.

If the D&D Universe even has a heat-death. Who knows what magic may interfere...

[Ruethgar]

If the D&D Universe even has a heat-death. Who knows what magic may interfere...

Yea, in Fearun at least there are countless tiny portals to the elemental planes to keep it balanced so I doubt it would ever be a problem there or in settings that assume the same.

[Necroticplague]

[counter-counter-pedantry]That's not actually an argument against a thing being infinite. Consider the set of all natural numbers, one we know to be infinite by definition. One that, in fact, practically serves as the definition for countable infinity. One can trivially apply your argument against this set. After all, for any natural, one can produce a natural number larger than that one, meaning, I suppose, that the first set, theoretically non-infinite naturals, is smaller than the second set, known to be infinite naturals. This line of reasoning would have a set with different cardinality than itself, which is a clear cut contradiction. Really, what we want here is a bijection between this set of possible HP's and the naturals. And, of course, such a bijection is attainable. Take the first quantity of HP that the combo gives, pair it with one, take the total after you do the combo again, pair it with two, and then keep doing that. Every natural number is paired bijectively with an HP total and vice versa, which means the sets are of the same size, infinite.[/counter-counter-pedantry]

Wait, I think there was some miscommunication or accidental equivocation occurring, because we appear to be talking about different things. I thought we were talking about one particular value (the output of this function once it runs, in terms of HP out as a result of Manifestation of Feat Leech in), not the range of possible HP values. So yes, the size of the set of natural numbers is infinite. However, no natural number is infinite. Similarly, the range of possible HP values this trick outputs is infinite, while the actual output is a finite value.

[eggynack]

Wait, I think there was some miscommunication or accidental equivocation occurring, because we appear to be talking about different things. I thought we were talking about one particular value (the output of this function once it runs, in terms of HP out as a result of Manifestation of Feat Leech in), not the range of possible HP values. So yes, the size of the set of natural numbers is infinite. However, no natural number is infinite. Similarly, the range of possible HP values this trick outputs is infinite, while the actual output is a finite value.
I get that, but what I'm saying is that, to the extent something can be considered infinite, this is that. It doesn't match the definition where you literally get a number that is infinity, because that's not a thing, but that by any other definition, by bijection, by producing values greater than any given value, and by taking the limit as time goes to infinity, what we're dealing with here is infinity. The other definition doesn't matter, because it never really applies.

[Calthropstu]

This of course uses word play to try to achieve the desired result, but is, in fact, truly a false interpretation of what is actually happening. When you lose the feat, you lose all benefits of having the feat, which includes bonuses to other feats such as the feat described here. The exact wording from this very easy interpretation can be found found in the SRD description of feats at the line " A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. "

By extension, since the 2 hp has a prerequisite for a psionic feat, the 2hp can no longer be used if that psionic feat no longer exists because you no longer meet the prerequisite for that 2hp. See also the phb2 rules for retraining "You lose all benefits of the earlier feat..."

So even RAW this is extremely questionable.

[Pleh]

I did involve a situation where every single step seems reasonable

Take the Psionic body feat: I don't know how one feat can seem unreasonable to anyone
Manifest power Feat Leech: This is Reasonable if the dm allows Psionics, if the dm doesn't then why are we even in the book in the first place.
The power specifically allows you to take Psionic Feats, Every time you take a Psionic Feat you gain +2 bonus hp.
Use Feat leech to take WHAT THE POWER ALLOWS YOU TO TAKE: Again the ower allows you to take Psionic Talent to gain


See, here is your problem. Not each of these steps actually seems reasonable in the context of RAW. Feat Leech, as you posted in your original post, is very carefully worded to make it clear you never "take" or "gain" the Feats you steal. You gain access to Feats someone else has taken.

The game system has very clear definitions of what the terms "take" and "steal" mean in this exact context, but you go to an English dictionary for a more broad relationship between the words so you can justify ignoring the fact that the RAW specifically defines them differently so as to prevent them from being interchangeable.

[Psyren]

The power specifically allows you to take Psionic Feats, Every time you take a Psionic Feat you gain +2 bonus hp.


It allows no such thing - Feat leech causes you to choose feats and be treated as though you have them, while the target loses access to them, but at no point do you actually "take" them. If you were truly taking them, you could steal a prerequisite feat from a target and cause all of their higher-order abilities to become inert, e.g. taking Point Blank Shot from an archer and making them instantly incompetent at everything else.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, yeah, they are just, "Numbers that just keep going." But that just happens to be the definition of infinity. I figure that your N is referring to the natural numbers, which would make sense, but you don't have to add infinity to the set of naturals. It's already an infinite set, to the extent that, when you look up countable infinities, this is one of the few cases where its picture would actually pop up.
N is an infinite set, but none of its members are infinity or infinite. There are cases in topology where a "point at infinity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_at_infinity)" is added to the set of (regular, non-infinite) points, such as the real number line, producing the real projective line. That is what I was referring to with 'adding infinity', and it's probably not the case here (which is what I wanted to point out).

The amount of hp obtained through repeated-but-finite applications of the function f: x → x + 2 (with x an amount of hp in N) is again in N, thus not infinite. You can't decide what an infinite number applications of f does until you define a limit. If you define a limit on N, you can say that the limit goes to infinity, but that is not the the same infinity as the cardinality of N - it only means the limit is unbounded (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limit_of_a_function#Infinite_limits).

Look at your original counter-pedantry, where you say "Given sufficient time, you can have more HP than any finite quantity of HP". In this case, "sufficient time" is the time it took to get that finite quantity of hp, plus one round (or two, or ...; the exact hp-time conversion is irrelevant). This argument applies to any finite quantity of hp, but that does not mean the amount of hp obtainable is infinite; it is merely unbounded.

If you can perform any number of feat leeches in a round, and someone shows up with 10n damage (with n really big), you can prove that you can perform (that is, have performed in the past) enough feat leeches to get at least 10n+1 hp. Again, that's not infinite, just unbounded, or arbitrarily large.

In short, this trick will get you finite-but-unbounded hp. That's enough. Until you run into someone with finite-but-unbounded damage.


P.S. I take my math courses in Dutch, so there may be mistranslations in there. Sorry about that.
P.P.S. The Omniscifier trick is interesting, because it is impossible to 'stop' the loop, or to even define a point where it is sensible to terminate the calculation. It is not discrete, I think.
P.P.P.S. For all we know, D&D isn't even defined on numbers past ~2000. What's the highest not-real-world-value (e.g. not a year or weight) published in a book? Maybe some epic great wyrm hp value?

[Echch]

P.P.P.S. For all we know, D&D isn't even defined on numbers past ~2000. What's the highest not-real-world-value (e.g. not a year or weight) published in a book? Maybe some epic great wyrm hp value?

I don't know why weight would be irrelevant, but the highest value I can think of is 2,613 hit points.

[Inevitability]

I don't know why weight would be irrelevant, but the highest value I can think of is 2,613 hit points.

Devastation Beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm) has 2,880.

[Morphic tide]

My two cents: All the RAW barriers are bypassed by correct application of Fission. You can definitely steal repeatable feats from your copy. The question now becomes finding a Psionic feat you can take infinite times.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

My two cents: All the RAW barriers are bypassed by correct application of Fission. You can definitely steal repeatable feats from your copy. The question now becomes finding a Psionic feat you can take infinite times.

Psionic talent

NI Power points

[Pleh]

My two cents: All the RAW barriers are bypassed by correct application of Fission. You can definitely steal repeatable feats from your copy. The question now becomes finding a Psionic feat you can take infinite times.

I don't see that. I'm hearing you say:

"Steal a psionic feat that may be taken an unlimited number of times, then steal the stolen Feat copy from yourself to gain it again."

If that's what you mean, then I don't think RAW supports it. You can't steal a "stolen feat" from someone else who has Feat Leech and uses it to leech Feats. You can steal any feat they have taken, but not any they have stolen.

RAW would support stealing Feats from yourself if you had taken the Feats normally (since the wording only requires you touch your target, not that you couldn't use the ability on yourself) so that part works. But if you can't steal stolen Feats from others, then you can't steal your own stolen Feats from yourself.

But none of this answers the problem that Psionic Body triggers on taking Feats, not on stealing them.

[Morphic tide]

I don't see that. I'm hearing you say:

"Steal a psionic feat that may be taken an unlimited number of times, then steal the stolen Feat copy from yourself to gain it again."

If that's what you mean, then I don't think RAW supports it. You can't steal a "stolen feat" from someone else who has Feat Leech and uses it to leech Feats. You can steal any feat they have taken, but not any they have stolen.

RAW would support stealing Feats from yourself if you had taken the Feats normally (since the wording only requires you touch your target, not that you couldn't use the ability on yourself) so that part works. But if you can't steal stolen Feats from others, then you can't steal your own stolen Feats from yourself.

But none of this answers the problem that Psionic Body triggers on taking Feats, not on stealing them.

The added HP does, if you can somehow 'flicker' the feat it works off of the stolen total.

The order of operation on stealing feats from yourself is as follows:

1. Fission. You now have a mostly-complete copy of you, feats included.
2. Feat Leach. You double your multi-purchase Psionic feats.
3. Dismiss Fission. You keep the added feats.
4. Repeat. You can now go exponential.

It's slower, but is less prone to DM veto due to blatant abuse of RAW where the result is utter nonsense. And it still bypasses the problem in RAW because the Fission copy is treated as having those feats as their starting point, otherwise it morphs into a way to give people duplicates of their feats by RAW because if the feat steal is tracked fully on your Fission copy, then there's nothing in the way of the stolen feats returning to who they came from, with extra copies included.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

The added HP does, if you can somehow 'flicker' the feat it works off of the stolen total.

The order of operation on stealing feats from yourself is as follows:

1. Fission. You now have a mostly-complete copy of you, feats included.
2. Feat Leach. You double your multi-purchase Psionic feats.
3. Dismiss Fission. You keep the added feats.
4. Repeat. You can now go exponential.

It's slower, but is less prone to DM veto due to blatant abuse of RAW where the result is utter nonsense. And it still bypasses the problem in RAW because the Fission copy is treated as having those feats as their starting point, otherwise it morphs into a way to give people duplicates of their feats by RAW because if the feat steal is tracked fully on your Fission copy, then there's nothing in the way of the stolen feats returning to who they came from, with extra copies included.
thanks!
Can you use throw ectoplasmic form instead, i ask this because i was trying to make this an early lvl thing

[Deadline]

As fun as the idea is, you've made an erroneous reading:


So if you have psionic body you gain a +2 hp forever and when you gain a psionic feat you gain +2 hp... forever.

Psionic Body doesn't specify how long you get the +2 hp. It does not state that you get them forever. Ergo, it will likely require a DM ruling to determine duration (because the rule isn't specifically clear). This means it's probably going to function in the manner it was clearly intended to function at most tables (because most DMs aren't that foolish). You'd need a DM willing to really torture the feat text to get the interpretation you are hoping for.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

As fun as the idea is, you've made an erroneous reading:



Psionic Body doesn't specify how long you get the +2 hp. It does not state that you get them forever. Ergo, it will likely require a DM ruling to determine duration (because the rule isn't specifically clear). This means it's probably going to function in the manner it was clearly intended to function at most tables (because most DMs aren't that foolish). You'd need a DM willing to really torture the feat text to get the interpretation you are hoping for.

And neither does the feat toughness


Toughness

Benefit: You gain +3 hit points.
Special: A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects

stack.






so does that mean you only get +3 hit points once and when there gone there gone.

[PacMan2247]

well first that was a joke. second I am doing this as it would be RAW not RAI which is what you are doing.


RAW, "you are treated as if you possessed" the feats. You did not take the feats, nor did you actually "steal" them from the target- you gained temporary access to their effects, and temporarily denied that access to the characters that actually has the feats.

[Pleh]

The added HP does, if you can somehow 'flicker' the feat it works off of the stolen total.

See, I still think Feat Leech doesn't trigger Psionic Body by RAW. Psionic Body triggers off Feats being taken, not Feats bring possessed. Even if we want to argue that RAI would have it trigger off of Feats being possessed, that would then be choosing only the RAI that benefits us, because RAI would also likely favor the interpretation that hit points granted by temporary access to Feats would go away when the Feats that grant them are lost.

Because if you lose access to Toughness, you lose the hit points it provides. If Psionic Body grants hit points based on Feats possessed, then you only get hit points from feat Leech for the duration of feat leech.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't know why weight would be irrelevant, but the highest value I can think of is 2,613 hit points.
It's a joke; 'game numbers', like hit points, obey different rules (of stacking multipliers) than 'real world numbers', like weight. For example, a double-damage x2 crit deals triple damage, whereas a double-weight double-weight underwater basket weighs four times as much as a regular underwater basket.


Devastation Beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm) has 2,880.
Thanks, that's pretty high. Now we know D&D goes up to at least 2880!

[Sacrieur]

Wouldn't taking the feat twice be illegal?

[Echch]

It's a joke; 'game numbers', like hit points, obey different rules (of stacking multipliers) than 'real world numbers', like weight.

That makes me wonder... Assuming I crit with a Scorching Ray and my enemy has the [Cold]-Subtype, does that mean I deal 250% damage or 300% damage? I mean, it is a multiplier (sort of), but it doesn't actually apply to the rolled damage itself.

[Calthropstu]

See, I still think Feat Leech doesn't trigger Psionic Body by RAW. Psionic Body triggers off Feats being taken, not Feats bring possessed. Even if we want to argue that RAI would have it trigger off of Feats being possessed, that would then be choosing only the RAI that benefits us, because RAI would also likely favor the interpretation that hit points granted by temporary access to Feats would go away when the Feats that grant them are lost.

Because if you lose access to Toughness, you lose the hit points it provides. If Psionic Body grants hit points based on Feats possessed, then you only get hit points from feat Leech for the duration of feat leech.

Your point is moot as, like I said earlier, psychic reformation, which SPECIFICALLY allows you to reselect choices made at earlier levels, does precisely the whole selecting of feats that the feat was directly intended for. So even without feat leech, the infinite loop can be entered... IF the rules allow for this infinite loop to exist.

But the rules, both RAI and (arguably) RAW do not due to the issues I mentioned earlier.

But, to be fair, it can't hurt to try right?

[ben-zayb]

But, to be fair, it can't hurt to try right?As long as your DMs don't throw the books.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That makes me wonder... Assuming I crit with a Scorching Ray and my enemy has the [Cold]-Subtype, does that mean I deal 250% damage or 300% damage? I mean, it is a multiplier (sort of), but it doesn't actually apply to the rolled damage itself.
That would be 250%, I think. One might think that damage is rolled and multiplied, then passed onto the creature and adjusted for its weaknesses, but I don't think that those separate stages exist by RAW. It's just a multiplier and a multiplier, applied to a game value.

[Pleh]

Your point is moot as, like I said earlier, psychic reformation, which SPECIFICALLY allows you to reselect choices made at earlier levels, does precisely the whole selecting of feats that the feat was directly intended for. So even without feat leech, the infinite loop can be entered... IF the rules allow for this infinite loop to exist.

But the rules, both RAI and (arguably) RAW do not due to the issues I mentioned earlier.

But, to be fair, it can't hurt to try right?

Hang on, this is different than what people kept arguing. I saw psychic reformation mentioned earlier, but I kept seeing feat leech being used in the 4 step process to enter the loop.

Help me out here. If we're no longer talking about feat leech, but now psychic reformation, then outline the steps being taken to enter the loop.

Here's the text I found on how psychic reformation works:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm

The problem I see from here is that psychic reformation has an xp cost, which limits your ability to loop feat selection infinitely. It's not all that special to be able to reach unlimited hp if you need unlimited xp, because just leveling normally can do that, too.

But maybe I'm not understanding this new loop you're proposing yet?

[prufock]

It doesn't seem to be a stretch to me and here is why (though I am not saying this isn't cheese, its like cheese mountain"

The definition we are using for Taken is

I voluntary took the feat into my possession. Possession's root word is possess

so I *take* the feat

Logically, no. "If A, therefore B" does not imply "if B, therefore A." In other words, just because taking something means you gain possession does not imply that possession of something means you have taken it.

A second issue with your reasoning is that you are ignoring relevent language. You are treated as if you possessed the feat only while the power is active. Even if your use of possess=taken were true, once the power expires you are no longer treated as such, thus no +2 hp.

[Heliomance]

[anti-pedantry]I'd call it infinite. Given sufficient time, you can have more HP than any finite quantity of HP. If you consider the set of all possible HP quantities, you thus achieve infinity by the classical mathematical definition. Sure, if you consider as a limiting factor some end of life or otherwise end of time/the universe, then you obviously have some finite maximum, but I'm sure there are fancy ways around those limits through the use of other optimizational insanity.[/anti-pedantry]

Anyway, I don't really agree with your (the OP's) argument by definition. I think that the word "take" there is referring strictly to the definition "select", referring to the feat selection process.

Generally around these parts, we use "infinite" to refer to things that can exceed any finite quantity in finite time - or more precisely, that the time t taken for the optimised quantity, n, to exceed some value K, tends to a finite value as K -> infinity. In this case, the time taken for your HP to exceed K clearly tends to infinity as K -> infinity, so we refer to it as "arbitrarily high" or "nigh-infinite" instead.

Formally:

"Nigh-infinite" or "arbitrarily high": ∀ K > 0 ∃ t > 0 | f(t) > K
"Infinite": ∃ t > 0 | ∀ K > 0 f(t) > K

[ZamielVanWeber]

Generally around these parts, we use "infinite" to refer to things that can exceed any finite quantity in finite time - or more precisely, that the time t taken for the optimised quantity, n, to exceed some value K, tends to a finite value as K -> infinity. In this case, the time taken for your HP to exceed K clearly tends to infinity as K -> infinity, so we refer to it as "arbitrarily high" or "nigh-infinite" instead.

It is funny, because I was a M:tG judge for some time, so I innately use their definition for a bit rarity large and infinite. If the loop requires player input to continue, it is arbitrarily large. If it continues on its own without player input it is infinite. DnD, as a rules heavy game made by WotC, makes me kick that up even more.

[Deadline]

And neither does the feat toughness

Yes, that's true. It also requires DM adjudication. There are lots of feats (and rules) that are poorly written like that. *shrug*

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Wouldn't taking the feat twice be illegal?

depends, with the power, are you asking can you take the same feat (like taking 100 of its 1 psionic talents) then no, are you taking a feat that usally can't be taken twice (psionic body) then yes. But psionic body works with any psionic feat.

[Vaz]

This is really bad theoretical optimization. Good TO involves a situation where every single step seems reasonable and a DM would ok it, and then you put it all together and you get something ridiculous. This rests on using a wording that may or may not be the RAW but that no DM would say yes to the single step involved.

No, that's more practical op. Or PO. TO is when a DM goes by the wording in the rulebook, such as Shapechange giving you Wish every other turn thanks to taking the form of a Zodar.

[Calthropstu]

Hang on, this is different than what people kept arguing. I saw psychic reformation mentioned earlier, but I kept seeing feat leech being used in the 4 step process to enter the loop.

Help me out here. If we're no longer talking about feat leech, but now psychic reformation, then outline the steps being taken to enter the loop.

Here's the text I found on how psychic reformation works:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm

The problem I see from here is that psychic reformation has an xp cost, which limits your ability to loop feat selection infinitely. It's not all that special to be able to reach unlimited hp if you need unlimited xp, because just leveling normally can do that, too.

But maybe I'm not understanding this new loop you're proposing yet?

Well in 3.5 yes, but PF no.

PF Psychic Reformation has no XP costs as PF has done away with those completely. When I DMed for 3.5 I'd fiat away xp costs anyways, because I always thought them absolutely ridiculous. One of my favorite things about PF is they got away with a large number of ridiculous rules like that.

But the loop for psychic reformation, with or without xp costs is simple: take psychic reformation and Psionic body. Use psychic reformation to reselect all your feats. Assign all your feats to psionic feats. Gain the benefits of psionic body with all your feats. Use psychic reformation to select new psionic feats. Use Psychic reformation to reset to the old psionic feats. Use psychic reformation to switch to psionic feat set B. Use psychic reformation to switch to Set A. Use psychic reformation to reset to Set B...

Depending on level, you could gain an easy 20 HP per manifestation, and the selection process is AS INTENDED for feats. So the Feat Leech argument is redundant since you can enter the loop this way, gain MANY more hp per manifestation, and not have to find someone else to have the feat to leech.

So the argument then must become: do you keep the hit points when you lose the feats?
There is more than one way to acquire such feats, and more than one way to enter this loop. So the attack against it must become: the feat itself does not allow you to retain the hp once a feat is lost.

I posted how the rules state that once a feat is lost, you lose access to it. You also lose anything that has it as a prerequisite. The 2 hp clearly has the feats as a prerequisite, so my argument is more complete: lose the feat, lose the hp as the 2 hp come with the prerequisite of psionic feats.

[Pleh]

Well in 3.5 yes, but PF no.

WOAH! That's a great point. All this time I was assuming a 3.5 application of these rules (partly because I don't have enough PF experience to speak with authority).

If we've all come to the conclusion that Feat Leech doesn't trigger the loop properly, then you're right that arguing it further is useless. I was trying to be a good forumite at stick to the subject of the OP and not get drawn off topic.

BUT, that did draw me back to re-examining the OP to clarify to myself whether this was a PF or 3.5 discussion and I actually found out that the OP posted PF rules for Psionic Body, but 3.5 rules for Feat Leech.

Psionic Body[Psionic]
Your mind reinforces your body.
Prerequisite
Benefit
At 1st level, you may use your key ability modifier determined by your primary discipline, if a psion, instead of your Constitution modifier to determine bonus hit points. At higher levels, your bonus hit points are determined by your Constitution, as normal However, you now gain +1 hit point every time you learn a metapsionic feat.
Special
You may only take this feat as a 1st-level character.

Psionic Body [Psionic]
Your mind reinforces your body.
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain 2 hit points for each psionic feat you have (including this one). Whenever you take a new psionic feat, you gain 2 more hit points.

Feat Leech
Clairsentience
Level: Psion/wilder 2, psychic warrior 2
Display: Mental and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 3
You can use another’s psionic or metapsionic feats for yourself. You make a melee touch attack against a target. If successful, you immediately are familiar with the target’s psionic and metapsionic feats, if any, and you can choose a number of these feats to “leech” equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum one).

While the power lasts, you are treated as if you possessed the stolen feats, despite the fact that you have more feats than normally allowed. During this same period, the target can make no use of the stolen feats. When the power’s duration expires, you lose access to the feats, and the target gains immediate use of them. This transfer occurs regardless of the distance between you and the target.

If the duration of feat leech is extended by the use of a metapsionic feat, the target gains a Will saving throw every 10 minutes beyond the normal duration. If this save succeeds, the power’s duration ends. If the target is killed before the duration expires, you immediately lose the benefit of the stolen feats.

You cannot steal a feat for which you do not meet the prerequisites, if any. However, you can use a stolen feat as the prerequisite for another stolen feat.

Augment
For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

Feat Leech
Discipline clairsentience
Level dread 2, gifted blade 2, psion/wilder 2, psychic warrior 2, tactician 2, sighted seeker 2

MANIFESTING
Display Mental and visual
Manifesting Time 1 standard action

EFFECT
Range Touch
Target Creature touched
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Power Resistance Yes
Power Points 3

DESCRIPTION
You can use another’s psionic or metapsionic feats for yourself. You make a melee touch attack against a target. If successful, you immediately are familiar with the target’s psionic and metapsionic feats, if any, and you can choose two of these feats to “leech”.

While the power lasts, you are treated as if you possessed the stolen feats, despite the fact that you have more feats than normally allowed. During this same period, the target can make no use of the stolen feats. When the power’s duration expires, you lose access to the feats, and the target gains immediate use of them. This transfer occurs regardless of the distance between you and the target.

If the duration of feat leech is extended by the use of a metapsionic feat, the target gains a Will saving throw every 10 minutes beyond the normal duration. If this save succeeds, the power’s duration ends. If the target is killed before the duration expires, you immediately lose the benefit of the stolen feats.

You cannot steal a feat for which you do not meet the prerequisites, if any. However, you can use a stolen feat as the prerequisite for another stolen feat.

Augment For every 2 additional power points you spend, you can leech another feat and this power’s save DC increases by 1.

The OP used PF Psionic Body and 3.5 Feat Leech.

If he used only 3.5 rules, Feat Leech + Psionic Body =
1. Psionic Body must be taken at 1st level. Not the end of the world, but less convenient than the PF build.
2. You gain only +1 HP per feat and it must be Metapsionic. No standard Psionic feats trigger it anymore.
3. Steal Wisdom Modifier number of feats per 3 power points spent

If he used only PF rules, Feat Leech + Pisonic Body =
Steal 2 feats per 3 power points spent + 1 for every 2 spent thereafter.

We can nitpick the distinctions here somewhat, but I like to think we should stick to using rules for one system, am I right?

[ExLibrisMortis]

The OP used PF Psionic Body and 3.5 Feat Leech.
No, the 3.5 Psionic Body feat is found on page 49 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. It works as the PF version does. The feat you quote is the 3.0 version, Psionics Handbook page 27.

[Calthropstu]

Yet, in either case the loop cannot exist because both pf and 3.5 stipulate that losing prereqs loses benefits. The 2hp granted by the feat clearly has a prereq of the psionic feats. So losing the feats lose the hp.

[D&DPrinceTandem]

Yet, in either case the loop cannot exist because both pf and 3.5 stipulate that losing prereqs loses benefits. The 2hp granted by the feat clearly has a prereq of the psionic feats. So losing the feats lose the hp.

Yet again, you are implying that it is a prereq when really it doesn't say anything about the psionic feat being a prereq for the bonus. The is no rule that says you have to keep the feat to keep the +2 hp.

Buy one get 2 free doesn't mean you can't get rid of the one that got you the others.

[Forrestfire]

That makes me wonder... Assuming I crit with a Scorching Ray and my enemy has the [Cold]-Subtype, does that mean I deal 250% damage or 300% damage? I mean, it is a multiplier (sort of), but it doesn't actually apply to the rolled damage itself.
That would be 250%, I think. One might think that damage is rolled and multiplied, then passed onto the creature and adjusted for its weaknesses, but I don't think that those separate stages exist by RAW. It's just a multiplier and a multiplier, applied to a game value.

Vulnerability isn't a multiplier in the same way. Neither are crits, really.


A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

This multiplier is applied to the scorching ray, causing it to be rolled as 2 * 4d6, or 8d6. Then, vulnerability steps in, after damage is rolled:


Cold Immunity
A creature with cold immunity never takes cold damage. It has vulnerability to fire, which means it takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from fire, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.

It doesn't multiply damage, but increases the damage by half-again as much, so you'd deal 8d6 * 1.5. Not 250% or 300% of the single scorching ray beam. D&D math is really weird :smalltongue:

[dhasenan]

The problem I see from here is that psychic reformation has an xp cost, which limits your ability to loop feat selection infinitely. It's not all that special to be able to reach unlimited hp if you need unlimited xp, because just leveling normally can do that, too.

XP costs slow you down, but this is still absurdly efficient.

Just before you hit level 11, for 20 000gp and 500xp, you can get 4200 hit points. It takes a thought bottle and a safe source of negative levels (I don't think you can straight-up spend xp to drop you below your current level, but I'm unsure about that).

If you use multiple thought bottles, you can get even further -- two thought bottles let you get double minus 100 hp each time you use this trick. (Maybe a bit less than that.) If you're not using negative levels, you get 3900hp instead of 2000.

One CR11 encounter across a six person party repays your xp cost and then some. So you'll be one encounter behind your compatriots.

The monetary cost is a bit steep, but it's a one-time cost -- if you plan to do this every time you level up, you still only pay for thought bottles once.

You're spending power points each time, so you'll need infinite PP -- probably using the psicrystal bestow / leech trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8141993&postcount=5). (Psicrystal Affinity gives you a psicrystal. It isn't required to continue to have a psicrystal, so this trick doesn't reduce the number of hitpoints you get per manifestation of psychic reformation. RAW is unclear on whether taking it multiple times would give you multiple psicrystals, but if it does, each one gives a +2 or +3 untyped bonus to a skill.)

It's not Pun-Pun. It's not unlimited hp. It costs you about one encounter's worth of experience each time, less as you level up. But if you sacrifice two weeks and a full level of experience, you're tanking everything short of save-or-dies. You can let the tarrasque gnaw on you for five minutes. Whereas your compatriot psions using normal amounts of optimization wouldn't survive a single swipe, and even the barbarian is scared to take a hit.

[Morphic tide]

You can let the tarrasque gnaw on you for five minutes.

50 rounds of Tarrasque tanking at level 11!? Next you're going to say that they can deal infinite damage per round at level 17...

[D&DPrinceTandem]

50 rounds of Tarrasque tanking at level 11!? Next you're going to say that they can deal infinite damage per round at level 17...

now were did i put that goad feat...