Was this encounter unbalanced, or unwise players?

[Ronnocius]

I've just finished running a session of D&D and there was an encounter in it the party seemed to have lots of trouble with.
Forest Gnome Bard, Variant Human Barbarian with 20 STR and 18 CON and WIS, and Half-Elf Ranger. All level 1. Bard uses rapier, barbarian uses greataxe, and ranger uses longbow and shortswords. Bard spells are minor illusion, blade ward, vicious mockery, dissonant whispers, and cure wounds.
The party was tasked by the sheriff to guard a farm suspected of being on the local bandit's hit list. Two guards accompanied the party. The guards left with the farmers to escort them back to the village while the party waited at the farm. Whilst waiting the group took up positions, with the bard and barbarian guarding the entrance to the farmhouse and the ranger looking out of a window on the second floor, surveying the land while providing a sniper position. It was at nighttime and party was at full strength.

So the guards were supposed to be there for the encounter, but I decided that the party could defeat it on its own. The enemies were 5 regular bandits (I rolled about average hit points for them) and a bandit "sergeant" with 22 hit points. Two bandits were in the first wave and one got the surprise round on the party. Did 7 damage to barbarian (who has 16 hit points) but were defeated pretty easily. Then the remaining bandits attacked, with three getting surprise round. During this phase of the combat, I gave the barbarian several chances to Rage, which he didn't do. They used their crossbows to down the bard and the barbarian was on death's door. It looked like a TPK. The party refused the bandit's offer of letting them go for gold, which was fair considering he could of lied. The guards arrived and began slaying the bandits, the gnome was stabilized with one failed death saving throw, and the barbarian barely stayed alive. The sergeant tried to flee but was slain by the ranger. It was fine that the encounter challenged the party, but I was confused by how an encounter that was not expected to down a character or be challenging at all could almost TPK the party. I was very easy on them, making the bandits play stupid and giving the ranger three-quarters cover when he should have had half, and even didn't split the XP fairly with the guards (gave the guards 30 instead of 60.) Was it just the party being stupid, pure chance (the party had terrible rolls while I had decent ones) or am I balancing encounters wrong?
Sorry for spoilers but post would be really long otherwise.

[Arial Black]

It sounds like you're not running surprise/initiative by the book.

[Mith]

From what I can tell, a barbarian that isn't raging is shooting themselves in the foot. If the had raged, I suspect that they would have been fine, and been able to deal with the encounter easily enough.

[Laserlight]

In addition to the above, L1 characters are pretty squishy, so it's easy to kill them just from dice swing.

[MaxWilson]

The encounter was potentially deadly, and you're kidding yourself if you thought it wasn't. But that's fine--deadly encounters are fun, especially at first level. The experience of almost dying, and then figuring out what you did wrong and how to do better next time, is an important aspect of the game.

Next time, the Barbarian will Rage, and other PCs will make use of cover and darkness more effectively. It's fine.

[Ronnocius]

It sounds like you're not running surprise/initiative by the book.
I'm not challenging your claim, but can you please elaborate? The way I run initiative is that everybody rolls at the same time, and people with ties roll to see who goes first in a tie. E.g. Goblin 1 gets an 11, Goblin 2 gets 3, and Druid gets 11. The Druid and Goblin 1 would roll (D20 + Dexterity modifier, just like regular initiative), Druid gets 5 and Goblin 1 gets 12. The combat order would go like this.
Goblin 1
Druid
Goblin 2
Is this correct? I'm aware there are other ways to settle ties.
As for surprise, I rule that one group gets surprise if they, well, surprise the other group. E.g. if the party blended into a crowd of cultists and randomly assaulted some, they would get surprise. If the bandits are hiding and emerge to attack, they roll a Stealth check in a contest against the highest Perception roll of the party to determine if they sneak up on them. Am I doing something wrong?

[Pex]

While the concept of players doing something stupid is a thing, they are not automatically being stupid just because something went wrong for them. Making a wrong choice can be just that, a wrong choice. They inherently do not have all the information a DM has. They have an inherently different viewpoint of what is happening and why. Not saying you as DM did this, but there is also the hypothetical cynical situation where the players do not deal with a situation the way the DM wanted them to, so whatever they do that is not what the DM wanted is automatically wrong, will not work, and may hurt the characters in some way.

The point of this is one of DMing philosophy, not specifically the encounter in question. The point is not to automatically think the players are being stupid. Events just happen.

Edit: I acknowledge you are allowing the possibility you erred in a too tough encounter. The point is more that even if presumed given the encounter is fine but didn't play out that way that's not an autostupid thing on the players' part.

[Ronnocius]

While the concept of players doing something stupid is a thing, they are not automatically being stupid just because something went wrong for them. Making a wrong choice can be just that, a wrong choice. They inherently do not have all the information a DM has. They have an inherently different viewpoint of what is happening and why. Not saying you as DM did this, but there is also the hypothetical cynical situation where the players do not deal with a situation the way the DM wanted them to, so whatever they do that is not what the DM wanted is automatically wrong, will not work, and may hurt the characters in some way.

The point of this is one of DMing philosophy, not specifically the encounter in question. The point is not to automatically think the players are being stupid. Events just happen.

Thanks for the response. I'm aware that my title has rather harsh wording, but it was nighttime and he still had 2 rages or something, and my adventuring day consist of 1-3 encounters per day. I realize this wasn't necessarily about this particular situation, so I agree with you that players and DMs often have different solutions to problems.

MaxWilson: My reasoning was that since the encounter came in two waves the party would be able to handle it. The whole encounter and session felt really weird because I felt like I was stealing all the glory and kills because the guard had to bail them out. At least now the players know what happens when someone gets downed.

[Sigreid]

If this is a new group of players, and it sounds like it is, I would say this was a magnificent success at role playing inexperienced adventurers! I don't think anything's wrong over all but a quick talk with them about preserving limited resources not doing them any good if they die might not be out of line. I have that problem all the time in video games. I'll die because I might need that potion more later. :smallbiggrin:

[JakOfAllTirades]

Thanks for the response. I'm aware that my title has rather harsh wording, but it was nighttime and he still had 2 rages or something, and my adventuring day consist of 1-3 encounters per day. I realize this wasn't necessarily about this particular situation, so I agree with you that players and DMs often have different solutions to problems.

MaxWilson: My reasoning was that since the encounter came in two waves the party would be able to handle it. The whole encounter and session felt really weird because I felt like I was stealing all the glory and kills because the guard had to bail them out. At least now the players know what happens when someone gets downed.

I would guess that once they realized the bandits were attacking in waves, the PCs decided to play conservatively, because they didn't know how many waves they'd have to fight off before the end. So, your Barbarian decided to save his Rages for later. He probably wouldn't have hesitated if he knew going in that the 2nd wave was the final one. With perfect knowledge, he'd have Raged for both waves, but he had no way of knowing.

Not that there's anything wrong with keeping your players guessing as to exactly what's going on, but as a GM it's important to take into account how that uncertainty might influence their decision making.

[lperkins2]

I'm not challenging your claim, but can you please elaborate?

5e has no surprise round. Here's a basic rundown of how it's supposed to work. When combat starts, every character of interest rolls initiative. Anyone not expecting the combat is surprised. Note that it is by character, not by team. The book has particulars for what makes a character count as surprised, but it's probably too restrictive of a list, and most of the time GMs get it about right without referencing the book. A surprised character cannot take reactions until their turn in combat, and basically skips their first turn of combat. By raw, it says a surprised character can't move or take an action, but it says nothing about taking a bonus action, nor about reactions after your turn. This means that a character who is surprised but gets a high initiative can still take an attack as a reaction if an enemy moves away from them (after their skipped turn), and characters who can do something useful with just a bonus action can do so. Also, a character is no longer considered surprised at the end of its first turn. This means sneak attack damage and the like does not apply to a character that gets a higher initiative than the one doing the sneak-attacking.

In practice, it is very similar to previous editions which would have a bonus surprise round in which only some characters get to act, and lots of tables just use the old system, but it can make things a bit harder on the party when it goes against them.

[Sabeta]

Perkins what you've described is almost exactly a surprise round though.

But to the TC: How exactly did the Bandits gain their Surprise? From the story presented, your PCs were alert and had reason to believe an attack was immenent. Now, I don't live on a farm but those are generally flat land aside from tilled ground, but that's hardly enough to provide cover. I get that it was Night, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was Darkness. Basically, unless you had the bandits approach from behind the building the PCs should have been able to easily spot them at a minimum of 60 Feet away. Especially the ranger whose height would have made hiding from him impossible. Doubly true since he's a Gnome with Darkvision. If the barn or the players had Torches which created Bright Light then I would argue a surprise round is completely impossible.

But even if none of the above were true and your players just had crap rolls, I probably wouldn't hand Surprise to the Bandits. Those Bandits no matter how you look at it were a deadly encounter. That's not bad on its own, especially if you're running low HP monsters that your players can easily dispatch, but giving them an entire extra round over your players is just asking for a TPK. (If the entire encounter would have originally given 60xp to all of the players, Guards included, then it's a Deadly Encounter even with the guards.)

TLDR: Surprise Round killed your players, not their combat prowess. Lv 1 is mostly just swinging swords until things die. They had no way of knowing if those bandits were the only bandits they'd be fighting that night. Your players probably could have played better yes, but in my opinion Level 1 is the last place you want to design encounters were suboptimal play earns death. The simplest solution imo is to just not let enemies surprise your players until Level 3. In fact, you can use that to play up the bandits incompetence. They're trying to hide but your players can easily spot them because they aren't using cover. Your players end up readying their actions and effectively surprise the bandits instead. Then later on when Dwarf Team 6 drops from the trees they realize that the stakes have risen.

[djreynolds]

They only have 3 attacks combined, 3 players. 2 uses of cure wounds by the bard if doesn't use his other spells.

Yeah, dangerous

[Sabeta]

They only have 3 attacks combined, 3 players. 2 uses of cure wounds by the bard if doesn't use his other spells.

Yeah, dangerous


They used their crossbows to down the bard
It's hard to follow get Cure Wounds off when you're dealing with two surprise rounds and your Barbarian isn't drawing aggro because he didn't rage and went down.

[JellyPooga]

Your players were outnumbered 2:1 and were facing at least one enemy that needed a minimum of two non-crit hits to put down. Assuming the regular bandits will go down in one hit, that means the players needed at least three rounds to win this encounter, assuming a perfect hit-rate.

On the other side, the bandits outnumbered the PCs 2:1 and each likely needed two or three non-crit hits to put down a PC. That means for them to win the encounter, they only needed 1 good round, maybe 2.

You gave the Bandits an extra round. Maybe you should have been trying to give the PCs the extra round if you didn't want this to be anything but a significant challenge.

This was a tough encounter for your players, but it was also a valuable learning experience for them. It was also a valuable learning experience for you too; you've learned that lvl.1 PCs, even "tough" ones like Barbarians with massive Con, are actually very squishy, you've learned that numbers count for a significant portion of an encounters difficulty and you've learned that surprise is a powerful tool and as such, must be used carefully, especially if your players are inexperienced or prone to carelessness.

Always remember that this is a game. It's your job to provide an enjoyable evening of gaming, not to teach your players small group military tactics, catch your players out or kill their characters because they were "stupid". If their play style is a bit gung-ho and casual, provide adventures and encounters to suit that style.

This isn't to say this encounter was bad; it was a well designed and challenging fight by the looks of things, but your expectation of A) how hard it was and B) what your players would do, was a little off. If you want to improve as a GM, readjusting your sights a little to compensate for your players style and that of their characters is more constructive than playing the "blame game". To take it to an extreme, if you designed an encounter that only a Druid could succeed at (for whatever reason) and that required detailed knowledge of second century military tactics, then you could hardly blame the players for failing if none of them are historians or playing Druids.

The fault, if any, lies with you; the GM and it almost always will. Accept it, embrace it, use it to provide a better play experience.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I agree with the others.

It's hard to believe the party could be surprised *twice* while dug in and expecting an attack.
The encounter is already well into the 'deadly' bracket even without surprise. That's fine, especially if it's the only encounter they'll face all day, but you need to be cognizant of it.
The barbarian should have raged. Hopefully they've learned their lesson now.
1st level characters are really squishy.

[djreynolds]

It's hard to follow get Cure Wounds off when you're dealing with two surprise rounds and your Barbarian isn't drawing aggro because he didn't rage and went down.

No I mean all they had were 2 spells from the 1st level bard, they party is lucky to be alive. This was a dangerous encounter

[mephnick]

Perkins what you've described is almost exactly a surprise round though.

Except in practice it's not. The differences between "free surprise round" a la 3.5 and the surprised condition of 5e are huge, especially with certain classes in play and especially at level 1 where one action can mean life or death. People who use the surprise round instead of the surprised condition are really messing up the balance of the game.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Your players were outnumbered two to one and repeatedly ambushed. I'm surprised they didn't all die.

[Arial Black]

I'm not challenging your claim, but can you please elaborate? The way I run initiative is that everybody rolls at the same time, and people with ties roll to see who goes first in a tie. E.g. Goblin 1 gets an 11, Goblin 2 gets 3, and Druid gets 11. The Druid and Goblin 1 would roll (D20 + Dexterity modifier, just like regular initiative), Druid gets 5 and Goblin 1 gets 12. The combat order would go like this.
Goblin 1
Druid
Goblin 2
Is this correct? I'm aware there are other ways to settle ties.
As for surprise, I rule that one group gets surprise if they, well, surprise the other group. E.g. if the party blended into a crowd of cultists and randomly assaulted some, they would get surprise. If the bandits are hiding and emerge to attack, they roll a Stealth check in a contest against the highest Perception roll of the party to determine if they sneak up on them. Am I doing something wrong?

Okay:-

* there are no 'surprise rounds'
* whether or not a creature is surprised is determined individually
* once combat has started the creatures involved cannot be surprised again later in that same combat; they are already alert for danger. The 'second wave' would not 'surprise' (in game mechanics terms) the PCs, unless the first combat was completely over and you had stopped using the initiative scores. If there was a big enough gap between the waves, then there'd be more Stealth/Perception checks and initiative would be re-rolled. It is still difficult to believe that a second wave would surprise PCs who are ready for this very thing

The way it should've gone:-

* ALL bad guys (1st and 2nd wave) and ALL defenders (party members, any guards that stayed) roll initiative, and the DM notes the order in which the combatants act, resolving ties any way he likes

* the DM determines surprise. The DM can just say that the party is automatically surprised, but that seems unjustified considering that the party are ready for this very thing. The DM can rule that the party are not surprised, on the grounds that they are ready for this very thing. More likely is that there will be opposed Stealth/Perception checks to determine if any individual is surprised

* it should also be noted that the bandits are in the same boat as the party; each side expects opposition, but neither side knows exactly where/when combat will start, because the party don't know precisely when the bandits will attack and the bandits don't know precisely where the party members are hiding. Whatever your choice re: determining surprise, in this case it seems that it will apply to the party and bandits equally

* bandit 1st wave attacks. Each creature, bandit or party, acts on its initiative score. If that creature is surprised it cannot move or take actions (or bonus actions) on its turn, and cannot use reactions until after its turn. It may be that a non-surprised party member has a higher initiative than any bandit and so their turn will come up before the bandits actually attack. Remember that the reason this PC is not surprised is because they heard/saw them coming! (Perception beat Stealth) Although there is no target yet because the bandit has not moved to attack yet, the PC can use an action to cast a buff spell or to ready an action to attack the first bandit who moves into a place where the PC can attack them

* when the 2nd wave attacks, unless there has been a long delay between the waves (it doesn't sound like it) then creatures are still acting in initiative order. The 2nd wave cannot 'surprise' the PCs (in game terms), but they may gain such benefits as being invisible for the first shot (shooting from hidden)

What you did was essentially let the five baddies have five free rounds to hurt the three PCs. This is a HUGE advantage, and could certainly make the difference in a battle against level 1 PCs.

[Ronnocius]

5e has no surprise round. Here's a basic rundown of how it's supposed to work. When combat starts, every character of interest rolls initiative. Anyone not expecting the combat is surprised. Note that it is by character, not by team. The book has particulars for what makes a character count as surprised, but it's probably too restrictive of a list, and most of the time GMs get it about right without referencing the book. A surprised character cannot take reactions until their turn in combat, and basically skips their first turn of combat. By raw, it says a surprised character can't move or take an action, but it says nothing about taking a bonus action, nor about reactions after your turn. This means that a character who is surprised but gets a high initiative can still take an attack as a reaction if an enemy moves away from them (after their skipped turn), and characters who can do something useful with just a bonus action can do so. Also, a character is no longer considered surprised at the end of its first turn. This means sneak attack damage and the like does not apply to a character that gets a higher initiative than the one doing the sneak-attacking.

In practice, it is very similar to previous editions which would have a bonus surprise round in which only some characters get to act, and lots of tables just use the old system, but it can make things a bit harder on the party when it goes against them. Ah, thank you for clarifying! I realize now that I was using surprise round. But I'm still a little bit confused. So if the bandits snuck up on the party and one of them was noticed by the ranger, but not by the others, would the bard and barbarian be surprised?

Sabeta: The bandits used the buildings (chicken coop, farmhouse etc.) to ambush the party from behind. I agree the bard didn't have a chance to do anything because I rolled max damage and he didn't get an action. My encounter building was like this: 6 bandits are 25 XP each total 150 XP. 150 x 2 for 6 enemies = 300 XP. This isn't taking into account that there were two waves. 300 XP is barely a Deadly encounter, but with the guards (who arrived one round after the fight started) the encounter would be Hard or Medium. Is this correct?

Arial Black: I was running surprise incorrectly. There was a delay between the waves, giving the bard time to heal the barbarian. I made the bandits roll Stealth against passive Perception of players (players were just standing around, waiting for attack). I gave the bandits disadvantage because the players were expecting it.

[bid]

Two bandits were in the first wave and one got the surprise round on the party. Did 7 damage to barbarian (who has 16 hit points) but were defeated pretty easily. Then the remaining bandits attacked, with three getting surprise round.
Yeah, you did surprised backward. You don't get an extra round if you succeed "surprise", you lose your first round if you fail "surprised".

It's entirely possible that everyone is surprised and nothing happens on the first round.


Try bandit A perception vs the 3 party members stealth (including help). If he detects any he's not surprised.
Same for bandit B and all 3 party members. If you consider there's enough time, allow "bird calls" as warning.

[Arial Black]

Ah, thank you for clarifying! I realize now that I was using surprise round. But I'm still a little bit confused. So if the bandits snuck up on the party and one of them was noticed by the ranger, but not by the others, would the bard and barbarian be surprised?

I need the initiative rolls of ALL the bandits as well as the party to be precise, but I'll invent them for the sake of this explanation.

Initiative scores:-

Bard 21
Bandit #5 20
Bandit #3 18
Ranger 18
Bandit leader 18
Bandit #1 15
Barbarian 12
Bandit #4 6
Bandit #2 5

You've decided that bandits #1 and #2 are the first wave, and that all of the bandits are aware of the party because the party are walking in circles around the building instead of hiding and hoping to ambush the bandits. Fair enough.

You've also allowed opposed Stealth/Perception checks to determine if the party are surprised, also fair. The result is that the Ranger is not surprised but the other two are. All good so far.

This is how it runs:-

Initiative 21: Bard. Cannot move or take an action, but can now take reactions.
Init 20: Bandit #5. He's in the 2nd wave. If he does anything, that's up to the DM. He might want to move into position, or ready an action.
Init 18: Bandit #3. Ditto.
Init 18: Ranger. His senses have alerted him to danger, but no baddies have moved into view yet. Uses his action to Ready an attack to shoot the first bandit to move into his line-of-sight. (He already has his bow in hand, of course!)
Init 18: Bandit Leader. 2nd wave, same as bandits #3 and #5
Init 15: Bandit #1. Draws sword and moves around shed to stab Bard. As soon as he moves into line-of-sight this triggers the Ranger's Readied action, and he can either shoot Bandit #1, or not shoot Bandit #1. He shoots Bandit #1. If Bandit #1 dies, tough noogies for him. If he survives, he can continue his move and take any action available to him. He may continue with his plan to attack the Bard, switch to the Ranger, swig a potion, or Dash to run away! He attacks the Bard, and would just hit but the Bard can use reactions now so he uses Defensive Duelist to change the hit into a miss. (He's walking round with a drawn shortsword, of course)
Init 12: Barbarian: cannot move or take actions, but can now use reactions.
Init 6: Bandit #4. 2nd wave.
Init 5: Bandit #2. Moves around the shed and attacks the Barbarian before he can Rage. (He doesn't realise that the Barbarian isn't going to Rage!)
Initiative 21 again: Bard. Can now move and take actions normally.
Etc.

Later, when the 2nd wave shows up, it's not a separate thing but a continuation of the combat. The party cannot be surprised, but the 2nd wave might very well be shooting from hidden and so get advantage on their first attack.

Of course, if the 2nd wave really allow the party to drop out of initiative and heal up, then the 2nd wave will be a different encounter and there will be new initiative rolls and new Stealth/Perception checks.

Does that explain it?

[ad_hoc]

1st level is really more about problem solving than combat. I wouldn't have this sort of situation until at least 3rd level.

I like the first 2 levels as they are a great chance to have some interesting choices and character development.

However, if you instead rely heavily on the combat pillar I would just start at level 3 instead.

[Waar]

Ah, thank you for clarifying! I realize now that I was using surprise round. But I'm still a little bit confused. So if the bandits snuck up on the party and one of them was noticed by the ranger, but not by the others, would the bard and barbarian be surprised?

Sabeta: The bandits used the buildings (chicken coop, farmhouse etc.) to ambush the party from behind. I agree the bard didn't have a chance to do anything because I rolled max damage and he didn't get an action. My encounter building was like this: 6 bandits are 25 XP each total 150 XP. 150 x 2 for 6 enemies = 300 XP. This isn't taking into account that there were two waves. 300 XP is barely a Deadly encounter, but with the guards (who arrived one round after the fight started) the encounter would be Hard or Medium. Is this correct?

Arial Black: I was running surprise incorrectly. There was a delay between the waves, giving the bard time to heal the barbarian. I made the bandits roll Stealth against passive Perception of players (players were just standing around, waiting for attack). I gave the bandits disadvantage because the players were expecting it.

If you "give" a hard encounter suprise it more or less becomes a deadly encounter, and almost tpk sound like a deadly encounter.

[Ronnocius]

I need the initiative rolls of ALL the bandits as well as the party to be precise, but I'll invent them for the sake of this explanation.

Initiative scores:-

Bard 21
Bandit #5 20
Bandit #3 18
Ranger 18
Bandit leader 18
Bandit #1 15
Barbarian 12
Bandit #4 6
Bandit #2 5

You've decided that bandits #1 and #2 are the first wave, and that all of the bandits are aware of the party because the party are walking in circles around the building instead of hiding and hoping to ambush the bandits. Fair enough.

You've also allowed opposed Stealth/Perception checks to determine if the party are surprised, also fair. The result is that the Ranger is not surprised but the other two are. All good so far.

This is how it runs:-

Initiative 21: Bard. Cannot move or take an action, but can now take reactions.
Init 20: Bandit #5. He's in the 2nd wave. If he does anything, that's up to the DM. He might want to move into position, or ready an action.
Init 18: Bandit #3. Ditto.
Init 18: Ranger. His senses have alerted him to danger, but no baddies have moved into view yet. Uses his action to Ready an attack to shoot the first bandit to move into his line-of-sight. (He already has his bow in hand, of course!)
Init 18: Bandit Leader. 2nd wave, same as bandits #3 and #5
Init 15: Bandit #1. Draws sword and moves around shed to stab Bard. As soon as he moves into line-of-sight this triggers the Ranger's Readied action, and he can either shoot Bandit #1, or not shoot Bandit #1. He shoots Bandit #1. If Bandit #1 dies, tough noogies for him. If he survives, he can continue his move and take any action available to him. He may continue with his plan to attack the Bard, switch to the Ranger, swig a potion, or Dash to run away! He attacks the Bard, and would just hit but the Bard can use reactions now so he uses Defensive Duelist to change the hit into a miss. (He's walking round with a drawn shortsword, of course)
Init 12: Barbarian: cannot move or take actions, but can now use reactions.
Init 6: Bandit #4. 2nd wave.
Init 5: Bandit #2. Moves around the shed and attacks the Barbarian before he can Rage. (He doesn't realise that the Barbarian isn't going to Rage!)
Initiative 21 again: Bard. Can now move and take actions normally.
Etc.

Later, when the 2nd wave shows up, it's not a separate thing but a continuation of the combat. The party cannot be surprised, but the 2nd wave might very well be shooting from hidden and so get advantage on their first attack.

Of course, if the 2nd wave really allow the party to drop out of initiative and heal up, then the 2nd wave will be a different encounter and there will be new initiative rolls and new Stealth/Perception checks.

Does that explain it?

Yes, it does thank you. I rolled separate initiatives for the two waves, the first wave was rooting out any hidden attackers (e.g. the ranger) and the second wave where the real attack was. Thanks to all of the responses.

[lperkins2]

Ah, thank you for clarifying! I realize now that I was using surprise round. But I'm still a little bit confused. So if the bandits snuck up on the party and one of them was noticed by the ranger, but not by the others, would the bard and barbarian be surprised?

Sabeta: The bandits used the buildings (chicken coop, farmhouse etc.) to ambush the party from behind. I agree the bard didn't have a chance to do anything because I rolled max damage and he didn't get an action. My encounter building was like this: 6 bandits are 25 XP each total 150 XP. 150 x 2 for 6 enemies = 300 XP. This isn't taking into account that there were two waves. 300 XP is barely a Deadly encounter, but with the guards (who arrived one round after the fight started) the encounter would be Hard or Medium. Is this correct?

Arial Black: I was running surprise incorrectly. There was a delay between the waves, giving the bard time to heal the barbarian. I made the bandits roll Stealth against passive Perception of players (players were just standing around, waiting for attack). I gave the bandits disadvantage because the players were expecting it.

Arial Black's explanation and example is pretty good. Yes, if the ranger notices them, and the bard and barbarian do not, the second two will be surprised. Of course, the ranger may have time to shout a warning to them before combat actually starts, which would let them avoid being surprised, but that depends on how far out the ranger spots the thugs and if they like their associates enough to give a warning. Also, I just checked the rules for bonus actions. If you lose your action for a turn, you also lose your bonus action.

Remember that the encounter building guide is for a straight-up fight in a flat field. It also breaks down rather badly when the number of enemies is much higher than the party size, especially at low levels when the players have few crowd-control options and no action surge or similar things.

Assuming this was the first night, I would let the players roll active perception if the bandits got higher than the PC passive scores. They came here expecting a fight and they're still all awake so it can't be too long into the night. If the bandits waited a couple days so the PCs have had time to settle in and go to playing cards or something, then using their passive scores would make a lot more sense.

[Foxhound438]

the fight being 6v3 is possibly a big factor here. Each of the bandits, despite being cr 1/8, has about the same HP as the party members would, and deal damage not super far behind the average party member's. If the party had a 4th wheel it would have been manageable even without making "optimal" decisions.

[BeefGood]

* the DM determines surprise. The DM can just say that the party is automatically surprised, but that seems unjustified considering that the party are ready for this very thing. The DM can rule that the party are not surprised, on the grounds that they are ready for this very thing. More likely is that there will be opposed Stealth/Perception checks to determine if any individual is surprised

* it should also be noted that the bandits are in the same boat as the party; each side expects opposition, but neither side knows exactly where/when combat will start, because the party don't know precisely when the bandits will attack and the bandits don't know precisely where the party members are hiding. Whatever your choice re: determining surprise, in this case it seems that it will apply to the party and bandits equally
.

I'm not seeing how to establish surprise on an individual basis w/o a lot of labor. In this case there are two bad guys, B1 and B2, and three good guys, G1 G2 G3. That's six different pairings. In this scenario, it seems like each side is looking for the other, so no Passive Perception. So each individual plays two roles--Hider and Seeker. In his Hider role, each individual rolls Stealth. In his Seeker role, each individual rolls (Active) Perception. Five individuals @ two rolls each is ten rolls.
For each pairing, two comparisons are made: Bad Guy Stealth v. Good Guy Perception and Good Guy Stealth v. Bad Guy Perception. There are four possible outcomes: (1) each surprises the other, (2) Bad Guy surprises Good Guy and Good Guy does not surprise Bad Guy, (3) Bad Guy does not Surprise Good Guy and Good Guy surprises Bad Guy, (4) neither surprises the other.
Each of the six pairings resolves to one of the four outcomes.
That seems like a lot of work.
Then we go to the initiative order and now it seems that there are logical tangles. Say Bad Guy #1, B1, has the highest initiative with a roll of 20. And let's also say that these were the outcomes of his comparisons with the Good Guys:
B1 and G1 surprise each other.
B1 is surprised by G2, while G2 is not surprised by B1.
Neither B1 nor G3 surprise each other.
In short, B1 is surprised with reference to some adversaries while not surprised with reference to others. So does B1 get an action or does he not? Or does he get an action if he directs it to G3 (say by attacking G3) whereas if he chooses to look at G1 or G2, he does not get an action?
Help!

[bid]

In short, B1 is surprised with reference to some adversaries while not surprised with reference to others. So does B1 get an action or does he not? Or does he get an action if he directs it to G3 (say by attacking G3) whereas if he chooses to look at G1 or G2, he does not get an action?
Help!
B1 saw a single enemy? B1 can act in his first round. There's no pairing.

[Occasional Sage]

Something that seems to have been missed is cover. With the PCs indoors and the bandits attacking from outside, there should have been cover vs the crossbows that were so devastating.

[Arial Black]

I'm not seeing how to establish surprise on an individual basis w/o a lot of labor. In this case there are two bad guys, B1 and B2, and three good guys, G1 G2 G3. That's six different pairings. In this scenario, it seems like each side is looking for the other, so no Passive Perception. So each individual plays two roles--Hider and Seeker. In his Hider role, each individual rolls Stealth. In his Seeker role, each individual rolls (Active) Perception. Five individuals @ two rolls each is ten rolls.
For each pairing, two comparisons are made: Bad Guy Stealth v. Good Guy Perception and Good Guy Stealth v. Bad Guy Perception. There are four possible outcomes: (1) each surprises the other, (2) Bad Guy surprises Good Guy and Good Guy does not surprise Bad Guy, (3) Bad Guy does not Surprise Good Guy and Good Guy surprises Bad Guy, (4) neither surprises the other.
Each of the six pairings resolves to one of the four outcomes.
That seems like a lot of work.
Then we go to the initiative order and now it seems that there are logical tangles. Say Bad Guy #1, B1, has the highest initiative with a roll of 20. And let's also say that these were the outcomes of his comparisons with the Good Guys:
B1 and G1 surprise each other.
B1 is surprised by G2, while G2 is not surprised by B1.
Neither B1 nor G3 surprise each other.
In short, B1 is surprised with reference to some adversaries while not surprised with reference to others. So does B1 get an action or does he not? Or does he get an action if he directs it to G3 (say by attacking G3) whereas if he chooses to look at G1 or G2, he does not get an action?
Help!

You adding difficulty where none is there.

In 5E, individuals are not surprised regarding individual enemies.

In 5E, a creature is either 'surprised' or 'not surprised'. If our hero is approached by 20 stealthy ninja, he is only surprised (can't move/act on first turn, no reactions until after) if he fails to detect ANY ninja. If our hero detects even a single ninja, then he is no longer 'surprised' and is now 'not surprised' (meaning he can take actions/reactions normally), even if he hasn't spotted the other 19.

Our hero can only target ninja he has detected of course. The ninja he hasn't spotted may be able to shoot from hidden and gain advantage on their first shot, but they cannot 'surprise' him (in game mechanics terms).

So it's really easy to track.

[Cespenar]

Let's say that the first two bandits were a separate encounter for the sake of the argument.

3 Bandits and 1 Thug(?) is still a Deadly encounter, even without going into the ambush stuff.

5 Bandits and 1 Thug is a Deadly++ encounter, if there'd be such a thing.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Something that seems to have been missed is cover. With the PCs indoors and the bandits attacking from outside, there should have been cover vs the crossbows that were so devastating.

The OP already said they were given 3/4 cover, despite feeling that it should have been 1/2 cover. That's probably why the PCs survived the encounter. Without that, Grod's comment of

I'm surprised they didn't all die
would have been the overriding response from the forum.

[Malifice]

I'm not seeing how to establish surprise on an individual basis w/o a lot of labor. In this case there are two bad guys, B1 and B2, and three good guys, G1 G2 G3. That's six different pairings. In this scenario, it seems like each side is looking for the other, so no Passive Perception. So each individual plays two roles--Hider and Seeker. In his Hider role, each individual rolls Stealth. In his Seeker role, each individual rolls (Active) Perception. Five individuals @ two rolls each is ten rolls.
For each pairing, two comparisons are made: Bad Guy Stealth v. Good Guy Perception and Good Guy Stealth v. Bad Guy Perception. There are four possible outcomes: (1) each surprises the other, (2) Bad Guy surprises Good Guy and Good Guy does not surprise Bad Guy, (3) Bad Guy does not Surprise Good Guy and Good Guy surprises Bad Guy, (4) neither surprises the other.
Each of the six pairings resolves to one of the four outcomes.
That seems like a lot of work.
Then we go to the initiative order and now it seems that there are logical tangles. Say Bad Guy #1, B1, has the highest initiative with a roll of 20. And let's also say that these were the outcomes of his comparisons with the Good Guys:
B1 and G1 surprise each other.
B1 is surprised by G2, while G2 is not surprised by B1.
Neither B1 nor G3 surprise each other.
In short, B1 is surprised with reference to some adversaries while not surprised with reference to others. So does B1 get an action or does he not? Or does he get an action if he directs it to G3 (say by attacking G3) whereas if he chooses to look at G1 or G2, he does not get an action?
Help!

You only have to notice a single enemy and youre not surprised on round 1.

You cant attack creatures that are still hidden from you when turn 1 comes along of course, and if they go first they get advantage to hit you (due to being hidden).

[90sMusic]

Sounds like a fight I was in a week ago...

We were level 3 with average HP values in the mid 20s and there was 5 of us.

The encounter we fought had 10 enemies. 5 of them had 45 health (double ours), 5 of them have 60 health (more than double ours), and every one of these bad guys had 2 attacks per round as opposed to our single attack per round.

We did win the encounter through superior tactics and more diversity in our abilities, but it was an uphill battle.

DM felt so bad about having the encounter being so lopsided that he gave us enough XP from the encounter to level up. :)

I'd also like to point out being surprised is exactly like having a surprise round because anyone who happens to be surprised cannot move, take an action, or a reaction in the first round of combat. Which means... that first round is the surprise round. Only the people getting the drop get to act, everyone else loses a turn. It's the exact same thing.

However, typically in games you can't surprise enemies that are actively waiting to be attacked. I mean joe shmoe guard walks along the city wall every night and never gets any activity, he's gonna be able to be surprised because he's not really expecting anything to happen because it never does. He can't maintain alertness 100% of the time every day of his life. However, those players knew for certain that particular place was going to be attacked at that particular time, they were 100% expecting combat and ready to react to it. It's one of those situations where the game rules as written are a little vague and don't really reflect reality.

Rules as written says if you have two guys playing a game of cards and talking about their day and focusing on the card game, oblivious to everything around them, they can be surprised by anyone who has a stealth check higher than their passive perception. Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense because sneaking up on people who are so actively distracted and not paying attention aren't going to have omniscient awareness of everything below their passive perception in the area. Likewise, it says a battle hardened group of adventurers who have weapons drawn, waiting for enemies to come around a corner can be surprised just because some guy happens to roll higher on stealth than their passive perception. So in either case, the guys who are oblivious to the world around them and the team who are actively ready to rumble and waiting for an enemy are both suffering the exact same penalty with no differences. It's kind of a bad system.

That is why DM rulings are important for these situations and why Chris Perkins actively encourages people to make up their own rules and change the game to suit their needs. Anyone who follows 100% the rules as written is going to have a bad time and it's not terribly enjoyable.

What would you do in this situation: Players are actively waiting for combat, each of them ready an action to attack the first enemy they see before combat even begins. Then, an enemy sneaks up on them and none of them notice him before he attacks. According to the rules, they should be able to use their readied actions against him instantly after he attacks (because attacking reveals him) and those actions were readied before the current round of combat, they were readied before combat even began, so it uses that action from pre-combat to do so. But then according to the rules, despite reacting to him instantly, since they failed their passive perception before he revealed himself, and despite having already attacked him, they lose a turn in combat.

It just doesn't make any sense.

For surprise related things, i'd just determine as DM what counts and what happens based on all the unique variables of the situation. Because the rules are intentionally left pretty vague and flexible and repeatedly mention "The DM decides" so you don't get into these situations.

[Arial Black]

I'd also like to point out being surprised is exactly like having a surprise round because anyone who happens to be surprised cannot move, take an action, or a reaction in the first round of combat. Which means... that first round is the surprise round. Only the people getting the drop get to act, everyone else loses a turn. It's the exact same thing.

At first glance it might seem so, but in actuality 'surprised' creatures still have a turn. Even though they can't move or act, they can still take reactions after their turn, and do not count as 'surprised' after their turn (even though it's still the first round) so rolling a higher initiative than the assassin avoids his auto-crit.

These subtleties can be crucial. I recommend using the 5E rules and doing away with 'surprise rounds' when playing 5E. If you think they are the same, how could you object?


What would you do in this situation: Players are actively waiting for combat, each of them ready an action to attack the first enemy they see before combat even begins. Then, an enemy sneaks up on them and none of them notice him before he attacks. According to the rules, they should be able to use their readied actions against him instantly after he attacks (because attacking reveals him) and those actions were readied before the current round of combat, they were readied before combat even began, so it uses that action from pre-combat to do so. But then according to the rules, despite reacting to him instantly, since they failed their passive perception before he revealed himself, and despite having already attacked him, they lose a turn in combat.

It just doesn't make any sense.

It doesn't make any sense because it is not legal to take the Ready action outside of combat. It is not legal to take ANY Action In Combat outside of...combat! And in 5E, ALL combat takes place in combat rounds in initiative order.

If creatures are Readying actions, they must have chosen the Ready action on their turn in the initiative order. Which means that there is no 'pre-combat' Readying, and therefore no absurdities that would go along with it.

[90sMusic]

It doesn't make any sense because it is not legal to take the Ready action outside of combat. It is not legal to take ANY Action In Combat outside of...combat! And in 5E, ALL combat takes place in combat rounds in initiative order.

If creatures are Readying actions, they must have chosen the Ready action on their turn in the initiative order. Which means that there is no 'pre-combat' Readying, and therefore no absurdities that would go along with it.

There is nothing that says you can't ready an action outside of combat. It is listed under actions in combat section, but so is casting a spell (which you can do out of combat), dashing (also doable out of combat), hiding (also doable out of combat), taking the help action (doable out of combat), and so on and so forth. Even the most basic combat function, to attack, can be done out of combat if you whack an inanimate object with your sword. There is nothing that says you can't ready an action outside of combat, because that would be ridiculous. You can perform all of those functions in or out of combat.

[BeefGood]

In 5E, individuals are not surprised regarding individual enemies.

In 5E, a creature is either 'surprised' or 'not surprised'. If our hero is approached by 20 stealthy ninja, he is only surprised (can't move/act on first turn, no reactions until after) if he fails to detect ANY ninja.

Thank you for the correction. I think I get it, but I also think that surprise is a slippery concept. I will try again:

Whether PC1 is surprised is determined by multiple comparisons (e.g. PC1 perception to Enemy 1 stealth, PC1 perception to Enemy 2 Stealth, PC1 perception to Enemy 3 Stealth...).
This being the case, it's fair to say that a lot of rolls and a lot of comparisons are involved.
The state of being surprised is unitary. PC1 is either surprised or not.
PC1 is surprised only if he loses every one of the perception-stealth comparisons.


Is that right?

[bid]

Whether PC1 is surprised is determined by multiple comparisons (e.g. PC1 perception to Enemy 1 stealth, PC1 perception to Enemy 2 Stealth, PC1 perception to Enemy 3 Stealth...).

Or you just take the worst stealth roll.

But yeah, that's how it works.

[Zorku]

Aside from all the surprise round chat: Your bandit "sergeant" was just a bandit with 2x hp right? That doesn't change the CR calculation on its own, but the resolution is pretty grainy at 1st level, so there's a good change he's more like 1.5 bandits, and the combat is that much nastier for it.

2 bandits in a wave and then 4 bandits in another wave is fine, but you amp up the difficulty of encounters in general any time the bad guys are using tactics, such as flushing out the guy on the roof before the real attack. I generally encourage that sort of thing, but as others have said, PCs are really squishy at level 1, and often times they end up on death's door even when they get to exchange equal blows with their enemies.

[Quickblade]

From what I read its pretty simple. As DM you erred by allowing your players who were actively aware to be surprised. Bugger what the rules say they should be regarded as guidelines and you as DM always have final say. The barbarian should have used rage-he has learnt a lesson. Apart from that I think the scenario was fine

[Malifice]

There is nothing that says you can't ready an action outside of combat. It is listed under actions in combat section, but so is casting a spell (which you can do out of combat), dashing (also doable out of combat), hiding (also doable out of combat), taking the help action (doable out of combat), and so on and so forth. Even the most basic combat function, to attack, can be done out of combat if you whack an inanimate object with your sword. There is nothing that says you can't ready an action outside of combat, because that would be ridiculous. You can perform all of those functions in or out of combat.

You can't ready out of combat. Your ready action is what triggers combat and it happens in initiative order.

The ready action can only be taken during the combat sequence.

[Sabeta]

You can't ready out of combat. Your ready action is what triggers combat and it happens in initiative order.

The ready action can only be taken during the combat sequence.

Why can't you? Is there some rule that says certain actions can't be performed out of combat?
Do I have to roll initiative to cast Jump or Fly? What if I want to cast Firebolt at nothing.

Do I need to roll initiative when swinging my sword around for Intimidation (Strength)?
Do I need to roll initiative when trying to split an arrow with another arrow for Persuade (Dexterity)?
What are the circumstances then if either of those actions causes someone to accidentally get hit. A person who if hit would immediately instigate a fight.

Personally, I would play out the action, treat the attacked individual as surprised, and then roll initiative.

[mephnick]

Personally, I would play out the action, treat the attacked individual as surprised, and then roll initiative.

Your decision as DM, but it grants the PCs a massive advantage they shouldn't have and isn't accounted for in the way the game builds encounters. It basically amounts to free actions in combat which is obviously not intended.

[Sabeta]

Your decision as DM, but it grants the PCs a massive advantage they shouldn't have and isn't accounted for in the way the game builds encounters. It basically amounts to free actions in combat which is obviously not intended.

How?
>Make ability roll, determine that Guy is getting hit, roll Initiative
>Determine that guy is Surprised, even if he wins Initiative he can't do anything on his turn
>Ranger's first turn is consumed hitting the guy.

>Fellow Party Members decide if they want to join the fray. Roll Initiative, and begin their turns wherever they end up. Possibly before Guy goes.

Have any rules been broken there? Is that not how Initiative and Surprised encounters work? Per the books you determine surprise before initiative, so I can't see how this is any more advantageous to PCs than normal.

[Vogonjeltz]

am I balancing encounters wrong?

Yes. You had an encounter which exceeded the minimum threshold required to achieve Deadly status.

If there are waves it's all budgeted as one encounter.

So although 2 bandits would qualify as Easy, and the remaining 4 as Medium, when combined it becomes Deadly.

[Arial Black]

Why can't you? Is there some rule that says certain actions can't be performed out of combat?
Do I have to roll initiative to cast Jump or Fly? What if I want to cast Firebolt at nothing.

Do I need to roll initiative when swinging my sword around for Intimidation (Strength)?
Do I need to roll initiative when trying to split an arrow with another arrow for Persuade (Dexterity)?
What are the circumstances then if either of those actions causes someone to accidentally get hit. A person who if hit would immediately instigate a fight.

Personally, I would play out the action, treat the attacked individual as surprised, and then roll initiative.

You're correct in that, when not in combat, you don't need Actions In Combat to do stuff.

However, if you do something, anything, which makes the DM rule that a combat encounter has begun, then you must use the combat rules, initiative, surprise, Actions In Combat required to do stuff, all that.

If you are not in combat but say (for example) that you are punching someone in the face, you don't get an out-of-combat punch before combat, because it is combat!

What happens is that as soon as you say you're actually punching someone (in this example) the DM has everyone roll initiative, determines surprise any way he likes (in this case of a sucker punch I'd personally rule opposed Deception/Insight checks). There may be creatures who cannot be surprised. There may be people who divined your intent by reading your body language, and who may or may not be fast enough to get their retaliation in first.

You don't get to do combat before combat! It isn't possible.

What's that got to do with the Ready Action In Combat?

First, your defined Readied action takes your Reaction, and you cannot take reactions while you are surprised, therefore you cannot take them before you know whether or not you are surprised.

Second, unlike most Actions In Combat which just organise combat into manageable chunks but simply allow you to do your stuff, the Ready action is a purely metagame thing that relies on actions/reactions. Since there aren't any outside Combat Rounds, there can be no Ready actions outside Combat Rounds.

Third, and most crucially, think what your Ready action represents here: you are saying that your PC is constantly ready to shoot any enemy he sees before the enemy gets a chance to react. Although that is a worthy ambition, it is wrong to assume you automatically succeed, which is what the Ready action, if allowed, would let you do.

Remember that as your party is going around determined to shoot first, so is your enemy! If this Ready action were allowed, then it's not only the party who would constantly go around with these Readied actions, but the enemy would also be going around with these Readied actions. As soon as one group turned the corner and the two groups were in sight of one another, then ALL those Readied actions would be triggered. Who decides who shoots first?

I'll tell you. The normal 5E combat rules! Initiative is rolled, surprise is determined, then each creature acts on its own initiative.

If you were to allow Readied actions outside combat, then either ALL of these attacks occur instantly, meaning that the slowest to react to danger would be just as quick to shoot as the fastest, or that all these attacks would occur before combat starts. As we know, you cannot have combat before combat, because it is combat!

If the DM said that, before initiative is rolled, I take an arrow to the head from a guard with a Readied action, I'd point out that I have a Weapon of Warning which means I cannot be surprised and so I can always take Actions and Reactions, and that my Initiative modifier is +10 and so I'm going to be able to do something before the guard can shoot me. It would be cheating to bypass my abilities by allowing combat outside of Combat Rounds.

The rules work both ways. If I said that I'm shooting the guard as soon as he moves into view, initiative is rolled and surprise is determined. I expect that he will be surprised because my Stealth is pretty good, and I expect my assassin with his +10 initiative modifier will act first, but what if the guard has a Weapon of Warning? How can I complain that the DM didn't allow my pre-combat attack? It's perfectly fair to allow the guard the same chance to detect my ambush that I'd expect the DM to give me if I were ambushed.

Allowing Readied actions outside of combat takes all that away. Readied actions outside Combat Rounds are not legal.

You said that you'd treat the victim of this pre-combat Readied attack as surprised. That's giving the finger to all those who carefully chose to train in Perception (or Insight), chose a Weapon of Warning instead of a +1 weapon, or chose to take seven levels of barbarian to get the Feral Instinct ability which gives you advantage on initiative checks and allows you to act normally on your first turn even if you are surprised.

I've got all these fairly-gained abilities to make sure I can't be surprised, and you're making me surprised anyway, just because you say so, without rules support. It's not okay!

[Knaight]

As has been pointed out, it was a highly dangerous encounter. With that said, there was room for better tactics, and the allied NPCs make it less dangerous than it otherwise would be. The biggest thing is surprise - the bandits found a smart way to attack a fortified position with defenders who knew they were coming. There really should have been no surprise at all.

[Malifice]

Why can't you? Is there some rule that says certain actions can't be performed out of combat?
Do I have to roll initiative to cast Jump or Fly? What if I want to cast Firebolt at nothing.

Of course you can cast a spell whenever you want, and attack whenever you want. Initiative order doesnt matter outside of combat. Once you declare an attack or hostile action, the combat sequence kicks in, initiative is rolled, and the DM determines who is aware of the other and suprised or not.

Then in turn order, combatants have their turns.

The ready action only relates to initiative and initiative doesnt exist outside of the combat sequence. It plugs over the issues of your turn coming up (and turns only happen in initiative order) and you having to wait to do your thing (whatever that thing is).

You want to clobber an Orc coming though a door, but he's 30' away on your turn. Rather than missing your turn, you get to use the ready action to get him when he does move.

Everyone is always ready for combat (unless surprised). You're walking around the dungeon with weapons out and 'a readied action' to stab the badguy. Just like the badguys have 'readied actions' to stab you back.


Personally, I would play out the action, treat the attacked individual as surprised, and then roll initiative.

Cool. My assasin archer readies an attack with his bow. Screw initiative, thats a free assasinate every combat guaranteed; all before even rolling to see if my opponent can react in time (an opposed Dex check via initiative). Maybe two if I can also surprise the guy and beat him on initiative on round one (when he still cant act because he's surprised). Heck, if I roll well on initiative I get three whole actions before you get to act on round 2.

Just kidding. I'd actually just walk from the campaign. Purely becuase your monsters would attack with 'readied actions' and get 'a free hit in outside of the combat sequence'.

Screw that.

If you're walking around with a bow out and ready for combat, thats just the assumed state of affairs. When an Orc walks around the corner also ready for combat, you roll initiative (both sides become aware of each other, combat sequence begins). Turns now happen in initiative order, depending on the outcome of your opposed Dex check.

If the Orc wasnt expecting combat (he was just walking down the street to buy some bread), then he might be surprised. In that case, you still roll initiative before firing a shot. The Orc just doesnt get to act on his turn one if he wins (meaning you get your first turn off before he can act; maybe even two full turns depending on how well you roll for initiative).

[Sabeta]

snip

You seem to have grievously misinterpreted my post, and made a few mistakes in the process. As a small but fairly inconsiquential aside: Surprise is determined before Initiative, not the other way around. (P. 189 Infoblock "Combat Step By Step")

First, Preparing a Readied Action does not take your Reaction. It takes your Action. Performing your Readied Action takes your Reaction. Therefore, if you Ready an Action outside of combat, and somehow end up Surprised, and the conditions to fulfill your Trigger occurs before your turn then you simply lose the turn. If you are Surprised by the Trigger is fulfilled after your turn then you can take it as normal.


Scenario I
"When the Gob moves in range I ATTACK" (Action Spent)
-->The Gob moves into range
-->Reaction is Triggered
-->Combat Begins:
--->Determine Surprise: Gobbo is Surpised
--->Determine Initiative: Gobbo Wins
--->Take Turns: You take the ATTACK Action, as per your Prepared Action
--->Take Turns: Gobbo is Surprised, no further actions.
--->Begin the next round. It is now Gobbo's turn.

Scenario II-A
"When the Gob moves in range I ATTACK" (Action Spent)
-->Combat Begins:
--->Determine Surprise: You are Surprised
--->Determine Initiative: Gobbo Wins
--->Take Turns: Gobbo moves into your range, then Attacks.
--->Take Turns: You are Surprised, and you cannot take Reactions. You have lose your Prepared Action.
--->Take Turns: It is now your Turn. You are Surprised. You cannot take Actions or Movement
--->Begin the next round. It is now Gobbo's turn.

Scenario II-B
--->Determine Initiative: You Win
--->Take Turns: It is now your turn, you are Surprised and cannot take Actions or Movement.
--->Take Turns: Gobbo moves into your range,
--->Take Turns: Gobbo activates your Trigger. Your Surprised Turn has already ended, so you may take Reactions. You Attack.
--->Take Turns: Gobbo finishes his interrupted turn, and attacks.
--->Begin the next round. It is now Gobbo's turn.


Second, my previous post defeated the argument of taking actions outside of combat. Readying an action is not a purely metagame feature, it exists according to the PHB to "Get the drop on your enemy". That is to say you are trying to predict an enemy's action and do something to interrupt that action. The books provided in the PHB are throwing a level when the Monster walks on a trapdoor, moving away from the monster if it gets close (provided you have movement to spare or Prepare Dash, of course), or attack it if it enters a specific area. Under out of combat situations every single one of those actions could be performed. In fact: that first example sort of contradicts you directly.

How many bad guys are allowed to activate a trap before combat begins. How many PCs have done something along the lines of"I'll pull the lever to activate this trap when the monsters walk across it". How many Wizards have "Fireballed a wooden bridge as soon as the enemies get on it so the bridge burns and they all fall into the ravine". 9/10 DMs would probably give the unfortunate creatures a Saving Throw and anyone who failed drops into the abyss below. Any survivors roll Initiative and begin combat.

Third, I make no assumptions that a readied action automatically succeeds. There are very few opportunities to Ready an Action outside of combat without actually initiating combat, but most of them result in Surprise. Here's an example that happens when I was the player of a game.


"If it looks like the Wizard is trying to cast a spell, I Attack."
>>>Noncombat Dialogue
"I attack"
Combat Begins
--->Determine Surprise: Nobody is Surprised
--->Roll Initiative: Ally Rogue was First, Ally Paladin was Second, Enemy Wizard was Third, Ranger was Fourth
--->Take Turns: It is the Rogue's Turn. He's not sure if the Wizard is attack, so he merely moves into position, and Readies a Sneak Attack
--->Take Turns: It is the Paladin's Turn. He's not sure if the Wizard is attacking, so he takes the Dodge Action
--->Take Turns: It is the Wizard's Turn. The Wizard is raising his arm, and
--->Take Turns: The Ranger's prompt was met, and he declared an Attack. It misses
--->Take Turns: The Wizard's is startled by the arrow and realizes he's being attacked. He casts Magic Missile at the Ranger.
--->Take Turns: The Rogue's Readied Action triggers, and he Sneak Attacks the Wizard. Killing him, and cancelling the Magic Missile.
>>>We later learn that the Wizard was merely stretching, and the Ranger jumped the gun.


If the DM said that, before initiative is rolled, I take an arrow to the head from a guard with a Readied action, I'd point out that I have a Weapon of Warning which means I cannot be surprised and so I can always take Actions and Reactions, and that my Initiative modifier is +10 and so I'm going to be able to do something before the guard can shoot me. It would be cheating to bypass my abilities by allowing combat outside of Combat Rounds.

I don't get this line. What you described is exactly what would happen. Under a normal setting failing to notice the guard with a readied action would trigger combat, you are determined as surprised, and regardless of initiative you end up wasting a turn and eating an arrow. Under your settings you trigger combat, are immune to surprise because Weapon of Warning, and win initiative, potentially killing the guard before he can shoot the arrow and/or imposing disadvantage on his next attack roll because of melee range and/or getting an opportunity attack when the guard tries make space.

Here's another example of how Readying an Action can be performed outside of combat.
"When the Apple falls from the Tree, I'll pierce it with an arrow."


If you're walking around with a bow out and ready for combat, thats just the assumed state of affairs. When an Orc walks around the corner also ready for combat, you roll initiative (both sides become aware of each other, combat sequence begins). Turns now happen in initiative order, depending on the outcome of your opposed Dex check.

If the Orc wasnt expecting combat (he was just walking down the street to buy some bread), then he might be surprised. In that case, you still roll initiative before firing a shot. The Orc just doesnt get to act on his turn one if he wins (meaning you get your first turn off before he can act; maybe even two full turns depending on how well you roll for initiative).

Yes that is how combat works. Thank you for pointing it out. Here, let me rephrase my earlier statement for simpler minds. I thought I was clear, but since I ended up with several walls against me I suppose not.

A player commits to an action before combat is begun. Once the conditions for the player to take his action are fulfilled, he attempts to take it. Surprise is determined, initiative is rolled, and the player who readied an action may or may not be allowed to take that specific action. As I've demonstrated through numerous examples, readying an action comes with pros and cons. The conditions may change, you might get surprised, you may lose your turn. There are rewards too, you may end up killing an enemy before it can do anything. Your Rogue Assassin Archer is still subject to initiative, his Assassinates aren't guaranteed, he's not getting three turns, and I've seen enough of your ****posting to know not to have invited you into my game in the first place.

But seriously, you all are making mountains out of molehills. Perhaps I could have worded a singular sentence a little bit better, but in the end I'm not allowing anyone to attack before combat has begun. I'm simply allowing my players to commit to an option before it does, and that may come back to bite them if enemies don't behave as expected. If I have a team of Rogue Assassin Archers who decide to shoot the first Orc they run into and after it's revealed that the Orc was ready for them and won't be surprised, and ends up faster than them and runs straight into he thick of it and attacks one, putting the entire party in melee range of an angry orc and bows drawn...well, maybe they'll learn not to be more flexible. On the other hand, if the Orc loses initiative and/or gets surprised he eats four assassinates and goes down without much fuss.

TLDR: I'm doing things by the book and you guys apparently can't read.

[Malifice]

A player commits to an action before combat is begun. Once the conditions for the player to take his action are fulfilled, he attempts to take it. Surprise is determined, initiative is rolled, and the player who readied an action may or may not be allowed to take that specific action.

.. in initiative order when his turn comes around as indicated by his Dex (initiative) check.


As I've demonstrated through numerous examples, readying an action comes with pros and cons. The conditions may change, you might get surprised, you may lose your turn. There are rewards too, you may end up killing an enemy before it can do anything. Your Rogue Assassin Archer is still subject to initiative, his Assassinates aren't guaranteed, he's not getting three turns, and I've seen enough of your ****posting to know not to have invited you into my game in the first place.


I understand what you're saying, but you're wrong. You cant take a ready action outside of combat. All a ready action does is delay your position in the turn order of a combat round.

Outside of the combat sequence, there are no combat rounds or turn order.

It can be safely assumed that most creatures in a hostile environment are ready for threats to appear at all times. If a creature creeps up on them unaware or the threat is not otherwise detected at the start of the combat sequence (a long time friend suddenly stabs you) then the rules for surprise deal with this.


If I have a team of Rogue Assassin Archers who decide to shoot the first Orc they run into and after it's revealed that the Orc was ready for them and won't be surprised, and ends up faster than them and runs straight into he thick of it and attacks one, putting the entire party in melee range of an angry orc and bows drawn...well, maybe they'll learn not to be more flexible. On the other hand, if the Orc loses initiative and/or gets surprised he eats four assassinates and goes down without much fuss.

If an assasin player declares he is shooting an unaware Orc, the combat sequence begins and the DM calls for initiative. After initiative is rolled, the Assasin takes his shot when his initiative number comes up. If the Orc rolls higher on initiative than the assasin, then he reacts in the nick of time to the incoming arrow, and ceases being surprised before the attack is resolved (although he still cant act on turn 1), and the assassin loses assasinate.

If the assasin rolls a better initiative result than the Orc, he goes first and assasinates the Orc. Then the Orc has his 1st turn (he cant act or move as he is surprsed). Then round 2 begins, and the assasin gets to shoot at the orc (who is no longer surprised) again on his turn 2. Then the Orc (finally) gets to act on turn 2.

[Sabeta]

Sometimes you want to get the jump on a foe or wait for
a particular circumstance before you act. To do so, you
can take the Ready action on your turn so that you can
act later in the round using your reaction.
First, you decide what perceivable circumstance
will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action
you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose
to move up to your speed in response to it. Examples
include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the
lever that opens it,” and “If the goblin steps next to me,
I move away.”
W hen the trigger occurs, you can either take your
reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore
the trigger. Remember that you can take only one
reaction per round.

In combat sure, but many of the things listed here can be done out of combat too. As I said earlier, how do you adjudicate a creature wandering into a trap controlled by the players. If you can push a button that makes spikes, spinning blades, whatever appear to kill an enemy, and then push the button in response to them stepping on the area then you have readied an action and reacted accordingly. This situation may happen entirely out of combat. In this case, the victim has the chance to A) Notice the players who want to push the button, B) notice the room is full of traps waiting to be sprung, C) gets a dex saving throw to avoid the punishment. Anything that doesn't result in his death is probably immediately followed by combat, but pushing a button is a very noncombat action.

It's fairly common for players to be allowed a noncombat way to kill Monsters. Some of them may require waiting until a specific optimal moment. By that token, there's no reason to disallow similar combat actions to be readied in a similar fashion. It's simply a matter of if that action plays out according to your expectations. but none of this actually matters, because what you're trying to rule is "I ready any generic response in reaction to any possible scenario" whereas I'm ruling for "a very specific response to a very specific scenario". It's not a matter of "If a monster shows up I shoot it." it's an issue of "I shoot that monster when it gets in range".

[Malifice]

In combat sure, but many of the things listed here can be done out of combat too.

...you may take the ready action on your turn

You dont take 'turns' outside of the combat/ initiative order sequencing.

...so that you can act later in the round using your reaction.

Later in the 'round'. There are no 'rounds' outside of the DM declaring combat starts.

'Rounds' and 'turns' only exist as a metagame construct to structure combat during the combat sequence.


As I said earlier, how do you adjudicate a creature wandering into a trap controlled by the players. If you can push a button that makes spikes, spinning blades, whatever appear to kill an enemy, and then push the button in response to them stepping on the area then you have readied an action and reacted accordingly.

If the players are unaware of the trap, then I generally just call for a save if they stumble into it. If I must structure it as a combat encounter, the trap has initiative (see the DMG) or the guy holding the lever does, and in this case it gets surprise (if the PCs were unaware of it).

Take a trap door operated by a goblin for example.

The PC wizard fails to notice the goblin, and the Goblin springs the trap once the PC stands over the pit. Initiative is rolled. If the Goblin goes first, he pulls the lever before the Wizard has his first turn (the Wizard falls in the pit). If the Wizard goes first, he is suprised and cannot act on turn 1. The goblin goes next and pulls the lever and the Wizard falls into the pit.

Either way, that wizard is going in the pit.

In the latter case, as the Wizard has already had a turn (albeit he cant move or take any actions during it) he can use his reaction. In this case possibly to (for example) cast featherfall.


It's fairly common for players to be allowed a noncombat way to kill Monsters.

Maybe in your games. In mine I play by the rules. If the PCs or monsters declare hostilities (or I as DM think its appropriate to zoom down into the combat sequence) then initiative is rolled, surprise determined and combat proceeds in turn order.

[Sabeta]

I play by the rules. You write down "Lawful Evil" in Red Ink on your players character sheets against their consent. I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one.

[Malifice]

I play by the rules. You write down "Lawful Evil" in Red Ink on your players character sheets against their consent. I think we're just going to have to disagree on this one.

Actually in pencil. Alignments are fluid and subject to organic change. If I said 'red ink' it was an exaggeration.

In my games alignment and morality is determined both subjectively (how moral the person thinks they are) and objectively (by the gods).

I have no issue with you playing a baby killing monster or serial killer who genuinely thinks hes a good person. You're not however, good. As you find out on death when your soul travels to the Abyss.

Would you prefer it if I instead wrote it down in my DMs notes instead? It just makes it easier for me to track by doing it on the players character sheet.

Of course, as DM I reserve the right to audit my players character sheets from time to time. If a player was sneak attacking, using expertise and his bonus action to hide and disengage, yet had Fighter written down as his class on his character sheet, I'd also correct that error as well by rubbing out fighter, and writing in rogue.

[Arial Black]

I play by the rules.

I realise that you think you do, but your stance on Readied actions shows that you don't.

You did actually post that you'd just treat an opponent as surprised, just because his enemy Readied outside combat. Have you backed away from that position?

How would your 'Readying outside combat' resolve enemy sides who each had Readied actions to shoot as soon as the enemy comes into view, and how would that differ from the normal combat rules of surprise/initiative/combat rounds?

What your system would allow (if it were legal) is for creatures to either attack outside of combat or, as your recent posts suggest, allow creatures to attack before their first turn in combat.

Your system would also allow the monsters to kill the party (or vice versa) before the combat even begins, using the trap-door scenario you mention. The goblin would press the button (which, since it results in the death of the victims, should count as the start of a combat encounter, complete with surprise/initiative/taking turns) before combat starts.

DM: Okay, roll for initiative. Oh, wait, don't bother, you're already dead!

[Mith]

Wouldn't a prepared ambush by definition be a trap, not combat and be treated as such? My apologies if I am being obtuse, but I see no mechanical difference by treating failing to spot an ambush and only being able to react via saving throws and doing the same for a mechanical trap. I cannot roll initiative until I have a reason to do so, and my reading of rolling initiative prior to setting off an ambush means that someone who has passed their Stealth check against a target can still fail to attack the target before the target becomes aware of them and attacks them.

How I would probably run it.

1) A readied action outside of combat is declared. It will be mechanically considered a trap.
2) The target rolls to see if they sense the trap waiting for them
3a) If they succeed, they decide what they are going to do with the information they have
3b) If they fail, they walk into the ambush, and the attacker can choose to trigger their readied action.
4) If the ambush is triggered, roll for initiative for the attacking party.
5) Roll to determine where in the initiative order the target falls.
6) Combat as normal

[randyofpirate]

In order to ready an attack as an action, you need a target. So it is impossible to do if you are unaware of the target. Now, you can target an area, such as a 5x5 square on a map or a particular line of sight, but you would not be able to ready an attack on anything that comes across a field that is several acres across.

An example of this would be the ranger in the window. He readies his action(Bow is drawn and aimed) at a particular bush or path. He is so focused on this one particular point that he would be easily surprised from any other direction.

It is also unreasonable as a DM to assume that a readied action could be held indefinitely. A person could not reasonably stand inside a door with a raised greataxe waiting on someone to step through for an unlimited amount of time. Even more than a few minutes would take an intense amount of focus.

You also open the possibility if you allow this type of readied attack to the wrong person stepping through the door(one of the guards) which would then be decapitated by the greataxe. If the action is readied, I as a DM would force the player to unload the attack on whatever triggers it. If it is such a quick reaction as to ignore initiative, the PC would not have the time to stop the attack if it was a friendly that triggered it.

AS for the OP, this was a deadly encounter by the numbers. As stated by someone earlier, waves are all still part of the same combat. When you are dealing with newer players that aren't efficient with their abilities yet, you need to back down your encounters a little. IMHO, if you designed an encounter to be difficult enough that the players need help from an outside group during combat to defeat the attacker, you have made it too hard. No player wants to have his PC overshadowed by a group of NPC saviors unless it serves some greater story plot.

[Mith]

In order to ready an attack as an action, you need a target. So it is impossible to do if you are unaware of the target. Now, you can target an area, such as a 5x5 square on a map or a particular line of sight, but you would not be able to ready an attack on anything that comes across a field that is several acres across.


Fair enough. In my head, I am thinking of sniping from a distance, or otherwise attacking from a position the enemy cannot assault and from cover, and that the trap is set up to allow the PC to analyze the situation prior to carrying out their action. I have done so with a character in other editions, so I figure that similar tactics can still apply to 5e.

Waiting to cut down the next person through a door is indiscriminate enough that I would have it be an auto trigger regardless of who triggers the action.

[Talamare]

The BANDIT LEADER ALONE would have been an equal encounter

This encounter 5vs3 wasn't just Deadly, it was borderline guaranteed for them to die

To make it worse, you gave the bandits a bunch of extra rounds?

Here have a calculator that can give you an idea

http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/

[Douche]

Perkins what you've described is almost exactly a surprise round though.

But to the TC: How exactly did the Bandits gain their Surprise? From the story presented, your PCs were alert and had reason to believe an attack was immenent. Now, I don't live on a farm but those are generally flat land aside from tilled ground, but that's hardly enough to provide cover. I get that it was Night, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was Darkness. Basically, unless you had the bandits approach from behind the building the PCs should have been able to easily spot them at a minimum of 60 Feet away. Especially the ranger whose height would have made hiding from him impossible. Doubly true since he's a Gnome with Darkvision. If the barn or the players had Torches which created Bright Light then I would argue a surprise round is completely impossible.

But even if none of the above were true and your players just had crap rolls, I probably wouldn't hand Surprise to the Bandits. Those Bandits no matter how you look at it were a deadly encounter. That's not bad on its own, especially if you're running low HP monsters that your players can easily dispatch, but giving them an entire extra round over your players is just asking for a TPK. (If the entire encounter would have originally given 60xp to all of the players, Guards included, then it's a Deadly Encounter even with the guards.)

TLDR: Surprise Round killed your players, not their combat prowess. Lv 1 is mostly just swinging swords until things die. They had no way of knowing if those bandits were the only bandits they'd be fighting that night. Your players probably could have played better yes, but in my opinion Level 1 is the last place you want to design encounters were suboptimal play earns death. The simplest solution imo is to just not let enemies surprise your players until Level 3. In fact, you can use that to play up the bandits incompetence. They're trying to hide but your players can easily spot them because they aren't using cover. Your players end up readying their actions and effectively surprise the bandits instead. Then later on when Dwarf Team 6 drops from the trees they realize that the stakes have risen.

Pretty much what I was going to say. There was no reason to put a surprise round in there.

Even aside from mechanics, when I read the "summary" of the OP before he mentioned the surprise round, it didn't seem like they'd be sneaking in the first place. I sort of imagined that bandits would be swaggering up to the farm with veiled threats that the farmer should hand over his radishes & keep his mouth shut, unless he'd rather they come back & take his daughter next time. That's what I'd do if I were a bandit... Not just sneak in & murder everyone without saying a word.

Generally, I think you should DM in a fashion that doesn't immediately come to the conclusion that every encounter is going to become a fight.

[TrinculoLives]

By raw, it says a surprised character can't move or take an action, but it says nothing about taking a bonus action, nor about reactions after your turn. This means that a character who is surprised but gets a high initiative can still take an attack as a reaction if an enemy moves away from them (after their skipped turn), and characters who can do something useful with just a bonus action can do so.


I don't think so, the rules seem to clearly state that a bonus action is basically an action when it comes to things like a creature not being able to take actions.



Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action... You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.

PHB 189


So a surprised creature can not take bonus actions on their first turn in combat.

[Sabeta]

snip

I never said that. Really, basic reading comprehension should be a requirement before using the internet. The individual was surprised because he was an innocent bystander watching an archery competition and didn't expect someone to flub so hard he'd end up with an arrow in the knee, and that particular example wasn't even about readying an action, but an example of combat beginning as a result of a noncombat attack roll which had unexpected results.

[BiPolar]

There seems to be some confusion in regards to this discussion between the OP scenario and the general idea of readying actions.

If Sabeta/Arial are arguing about general use of readied actions and not OP scenario, then the specifics of any given scenario are very much going to likely define if a readied action is available to be taken or not. Is the trigger specific enough is generally the question that needs to be asked.

In addition, per the Magic Missile readied action, not only does it not occur, but because you had readied it (basically concentrated on it), you'd lose the spell slot, too.

[randyofpirate]

I never said that. Really, basic reading comprehension should be a requirement before using the internet. The individual was surprised because he was an innocent bystander watching an archery competition and didn't expect someone to flub so hard he'd end up with an arrow in the knee, and that particular example wasn't even about readying an action, but an example of combat beginning as a result of a noncombat attack roll which had unexpected results.

I would like to point out that this example is not about combat. The combat wouldn't be started by the arrow hitting the man. It would be started when 1 of the two parties involved decided to act upon this event. If the guy shooting the arrow didn't want to fight, and the guy hit by the arrow didn't want to fight, combat never occurrs. Combat rules only come in to play when at least one party is actually engaging in combat.

[mephnick]

I never said that. Really, basic reading comprehension should be a requirement before using the internet.

So should politeness and the ability to admit when you're wrong.

[Sabeta]

So should politeness and the ability to admit when you're wrong.

People who can't read don't deserve politeness. I would be willing to admit I'm wrong I were actually wrong about something, which is why I chose to simply end the conversation with Malifice rather than keep it going. I can tell he had zero intention of actually reading my posts or backing down.

@Randy: That was kind of the point. If the person being shot decides that he would become aggressive if hit, even on accident then how do you adjudicate that.

As I said, he gets hit and we begin combat with him surprised. Everyone else seems to have missed the point of that entirely because "lol you can't have combat before combat", even though there was no combat at the time.

[Vogonjeltz]

The BANDIT LEADER ALONE would have been an equal encounter

This encounter 5vs3 wasn't just Deadly, it was borderline guaranteed for them to die

To make it worse, you gave the bandits a bunch of extra rounds?

Here have a calculator that can give you an idea

http://dhmstark.co.uk/rpgs/encounter-calculator-5th/

I believe he said "Bandit Sergeant" who was distinguished just by having 22 hit points, which is distinct from the guy with 65 who I think you may be thinking of.

[bid]

People who can't read don't deserve politeness. I would be willing to admit I'm wrong I were actually wrong about something, which is why I chose to simply end the conversation with Malifice rather than keep it going.
I think the assassin example was pretty telling.

Assassin A and B have readied "shoot arrow" actions. Initiative is rolled and order is assassin A, player Y, player Z, assassin B. Players are surprised.
- assassin A turn:
-- reaction: shoot arrow with advantage (auto-crit) ** not RAW **
-- attack action: shoot arrow with advantage + SA (auto-crit)
-- assassin B reaction: shoot arrow with advantage + SA (auto-crit) ** not RAW **
- player Y turn:
- player Z turn:
- assassin B turn:
-- attack action: shoot arrow no advantage + SA

RAW damage should be around 28.
This silliness add something like 34 damage.

Can anyone read this and still be unwilling to reconsider?

[Sabeta]

I guess it's a good thing I'm not a bad DM then.


If you're walking around with a bow out and ready for combat, thats just the assumed state of affairs. When an Orc walks around the corner also ready for combat, you roll initiative (both sides become aware of each other, combat sequence begins). Turns now happen in initiative order, depending on the outcome of your opposed Dex check.

I already agreed with Malifice on this point a page ago. Readying an Action requires a specific action against a specific trigger. Being ready for combat is just how things are, so "ready to attack anything that moves" is not a readied action, it's just business as usual for any would-be assassins. I'll admit that when I wrote that bit about Gobbos I got mixed up. Thinking on it further, it probably would have just been normal Initiative with a surprised goblin after the player in question waiting for him to enter attack range. In other words:

"I'll attack when the Goblin enters Range"
-Goblin Does
-Player Declares Attack
--Combat Begins
---Determine Surprise: Goblin is Surprised
---Determine Initiative: Doesn't matter
---Your Turn: Attack the Goblin
---New Round begins

However, that doesn't mean actions can't be readied out of combat, it just means that being prepared for battle is nothing more than being prepared for battle. It just means that Readying for Combat is the same as just Combat. My initial post still stands however. I was just wrong about its combat applications. Which is rather silly since my initial post wasn't even about combat to begin with, but when Arial Black completely misread my post and started spouting "you can't combat before combat lel" nonsense I saw red. My b.

[Arial Black]

I guess it's a good thing I'm not a bad DM then.



I already agreed with Malifice on this point a page ago. Readying an Action requires a specific action against a specific trigger. Being ready for combat is just how things are, so "ready to attack anything that moves" is not a readied action, it's just business as usual for any would-be assassins. I'll admit that when I wrote that bit about Gobbos I got mixed up. Thinking on it further, it probably would have just been normal Initiative with a surprised goblin after the player in question waiting for him to enter attack range. In other words:

"I'll attack when the Goblin enters Range"
-Goblin Does
-Player Declares Attack
--Combat Begins
---Determine Surprise: Goblin is Surprised
---Determine Initiative: Doesn't matter
---Your Turn: Attack the Goblin
---New Round begins

However, that doesn't mean actions can't be readied out of combat, it just means that being prepared for battle is nothing more than being prepared for battle. It just means that Readying for Combat is the same as just Combat. My initial post still stands however. I was just wrong about its combat applications. Which is rather silly since my initial post wasn't even about combat to begin with, but when Arial Black completely misread my post and started spouting "you can't combat before combat lel" nonsense I saw red. My b.

Okay, let's forgive each other and move on.

TL;DR: If Readied Actions were allowed before the start of combat, it would allow a creature to:-

* take his first action before his first action!

* take and resolve an attack before his first turn!

[djreynolds]

If you think there is a 10% chance that this combat could possibly kill all the PCs... it is deadly

If 1 crit by the enemy will kill a PC outright... it is deadly

You are not wrong, but homebrew is not easy to manage.

Ask yourself, if the bard is struck by just 2 arrows/bolts will this kill him... its deadly

Totally unbalanced, a village of goblins rolling 20's on every roll are dangerous and deadly.

Use the CR calculators out there, allow the PCs cover and concealment, don't point it out but provide it.

Its a mistake on the DMs part, all part of learning the game, and no one is dead... they were saved... fixed.

[Asmotherion]

Generally, IMO levels 1-3 are not meant to be played, at least not by more experienced players. The characters of levels 1 and 2 just don't have enough complexity to use mechanics, and you might just end up accidentally killing them from a bad die roll. By level 3 all have gained their respective Archetype, key class features, and can be played in a meaningful way. I personally like to start campains between levels 3-5.

I only play characters of level 1-3 in backstory sessions (either individual or otherwise), as a means to make their backstory more interactive, wile the PCs have plot armor (witch I generally don't like to use otherwise). Experiencing their PC in plot armor, gives the players a certain amound of liberty to experiment their role play and fighting style without worrying of being killed, and I personaly use levels 1-3 just for than purpose.

[Zorku]

If there are waves it's all budgeted as one encounter.


That's explicitly not the case.

DMG p83
"For (multipart) encounters, treat each discrete part or wave as a separate encounter for the purposes of determining difficulty."
With caveat "if the adjusted XP value... in a multipart encounter is higher than one-third of... an adventuring day... the encounter is going to be tougher than the sum of it's parts."


-

As for this ready action mess, everyone seems to be wrong. Sabeta seems to be operating off of the "you ready an action to be performed later in the same round" interpretation, but grants the readied action at the start of combat instead of when the player's initiative rolls around, while folks like bid have done something like houseruling the ready action so that it isn't constrained to a particular round, but rather "until the start of your next turn."

For the record, I haven't particularly gone looking for any disambiguation on this matter, and I strongly feel like a readied action is intended to work the second way, but that's clearly not how the rule is written. For this to work the way Sabeta wants it to a player would have to ready their action and then take that attack prior to the first round of combat, and I think we all understand the surprise round rules well enough to recognize that as not being valid play. If Sabeta is treating that period of time as the surprise round itself, then my initial criticism about acting outside of initiative order applies.

The only way surprise rounds go out of initiative order is that the instigator declares their attack before you've rolled initiative, and thus before it's actually their turn. None of the mechanics of taking an action happen until your initiative actually comes around. As such, all of these explanations are wrong in subtle ways, or at the very least some people haven't explained what they mean clearly enough for me to say that this obeys the rules.

[JackPhoenix]

Wouldn't a prepared ambush by definition be a trap, not combat and be treated as such? My apologies if I am being obtuse, but I see no mechanical difference by treating failing to spot an ambush and only being able to react via saving throws and doing the same for a mechanical trap. I cannot roll initiative until I have a reason to do so, and my reading of rolling initiative prior to setting off an ambush means that someone who has passed their Stealth check against a target can still fail to attack the target before the target becomes aware of them and attacks them.

How I would probably run it.

1) A readied action outside of combat is declared. It will be mechanically considered a trap.
2) The target rolls to see if they sense the trap waiting for them
3a) If they succeed, they decide what they are going to do with the information they have
3b) If they fail, they walk into the ambush, and the attacker can choose to trigger their readied action.
4) If the ambush is triggered, roll for initiative for the attacking party.
5) Roll to determine where in the initiative order the target falls.
6) Combat as normal

Ambush: Ambushing party is hidden, rolls Stealth against ambushee's passive Perception.

a) Ambushers succeed. Victims are unaware of them, when ambushers are ready to attack (which has nothing to do with Readied Actions), initiative is rolled, victims are surprised and can't act in the first round. If some victims roll higher initiative than the ambushers, they still can't act, but can use their reactions (to cast Shield, for example)
b) Ambushers fail. Some (or all) victims aren't surprised. Initiative is rolled, combat proceeds normally. If they have higher initiative, victims may act first. If some of the victims fail to notice ambushers, they are surprised and can't act in the first round. Combat proceeds normally.