Playing the BBEG: Outfitting the Troops

[supersonic29]

So as of late I've taken the role of playing the BBEG for a friend's campaign, and I've been asked to design some little class builds for the units I've been sending off on various tasks. I know about what they need to accomplish, and I was hoping to get some ideas on their base classes and whatnot.

The overall goal is that they identify good-aligned individuals and drop a helm of opposite alignment on them, this is their recruiting methodology. I'm thinking the individual squads oughta be 3-4 people with some divided roles. Something like, one who IDs their alignment and is maybe the groups general caster, one who specializes in grappling, (since I can't imagine how else you force a helmet on someone without pinning them, or hold person I suppose?) and a team leader who is some sort of adept fighter/martial of some sort (a chain whip base may make for good flavor in the campaign). The optional fourth I suppose would be a rogue type for lock-busting and trap-finding where it comes up.

Without explaining at extreme length, the campaign is in a desert setting and the BBEG is trying to collect some spread-out relics in various small dungeons before the party does so, a bit like Xiaolin Showdown. :smallwink: many thanks to any and all ideas, hopefully I can make them easy to operate for the DM to do so as needed :smallbiggrin:

Edit: A build to about 10 is nice so that they can be scaled as needed over time, but currently they'll probably be ECL 5

[Coidzor]

What sources are available to you and what system is this? 3.0? 3.5? 3.0+3.5? PF? 3.P?

[supersonic29]

What sources are available to you and what system is this? 3.0? 3.5? 3.0+3.5? PF? 3.P?

All 3.5 minus the magazine (minus specific approval I suppose) and 3.0 is valid if it does not have an updated equivelant. Web supplements are kosher. I do apologize, really ought to have had that in the subject line.

[Crake]

Your best bet would be to gank the targets, preferably in their sleep, open with some teleporataion magic while they're still asleep/unconscious to move them to a secure holding facility, dimension door can get you a fair distance, if you set up a place nearby, preferably silenced (or zone of silenced) so the altercation won't wake anyone nearby and cause someone to come looking. A well equipped sneaky character could, at ECL5, get 8 ranks, 4 dex, 5 from magic item, 2 from masterwork tool, 3 from location feat skill focus (possibly just a representation of good training), and +8/6 hide/move silently from a collar of umbral metamorphosis. A scroll of Alter Self into a skulk gets them another +15/8 hide/move silently, for a total of +45 hide and +33 move silently. At level 5. With Hide in plain Sight. Note that the dark template was updated since tome of magic so that it's hide in plain sight functioned like the shadowdancer and assassin version, simply needing to be within 10ft of a shadow for it to function, rather than needing concealment or cover. With those numbers you should have no problem sneaking in to the target's bedroom and dimension dooring them away.

The standard collar of umbral metamorphosis, 10 minutes, should be more than enough to get in and use a scroll of dimension door (make sure there's at least 1 cleric who can cast divine insight on the player to ensure success even on a 1) on the helpless, sleeping target to get them to your trap where you can gank them, tie them up, use the helm on them until it works, and then indoctrinate them into your army however necessary.

As for identifying your targets, someone with a permanencied detect good should be able scan around the powerful knights and the like until he finds one who is vulnerable enough. Ideally there would be a detect good version of blessed sight (which acts for detect evil like arcane sight acts for detect magic, from book of exalted deeds) that you could use instead, which would make it easier, but that's not so much an issue.

[Tarvus]

The overall goal is that they identify good-aligned individuals and drop a helm of opposite alignment on them, this is their recruiting methodology. I'm thinking the individual squads oughta be 3-4 people with some divided roles. Something like, one who IDs their alignment and is maybe the groups general caster, one who specializes in grappling, (since I can't imagine how else you force a helmet on someone without pinning them, or hold person I suppose?)

You don't necessarily have to grapple them, just make them helpless and there are many ways to do that.

I have a few questions though. Are they going after specific good aligned individuals, only ones that meet certain criteria, or just anyone they can get? Becayse actics for capturing mid level adventurers will be different from, say, press ganging cannon fodder.

If you DO want to fill out the ranks with fodder, you could just buy a Harpy for about 1600gpLoM*, and use its Captivating Song to captivate and convert up to triple digits of low level creatures at once. Just couple it with Crushing Despair and some other area effect will drains.

Tactics for higher level characters in general, and casters specifically will vary a lot depending on your criteria but I think Crake on the right track.


*Or up to 6400gp if you read Unusual Qualities as including racial abilities.

[danielxcutter]

For the grappler: the mancatcher, the sharktooth staff, and the pincer staff are exotic reach weapons that initiate a grapple as a free action that don't provoke an AoO. Combine with the Stone Dragon stances Crushing Weight of the Mountain(gain 2d6 + 1.5 Strength mod constriction damage) or Roots of the Mountain(+10 unnamed bonus to resist bull rush, overrun, trips, and grapple attempts made against you, -10 on Tumble checks, and DR 2/-, but ends if moved more than 5 feet for any reason), and you have one of the best grapplers possible without size modifiers.

[icefractal]

Knocking the targets out first might be a better plan in general than forcing the helm onto them while awake. That way, they don't even have to know that their alignment was magically changed, they just wake up feeling more ruthless for some reason. So things that do nonlethal damage would be useful.

That brings me to the big issue with the overall plan though - being evil != joining the BBEGs army, by itself. It might make them more amenable to being recruited, or less strongly opposed to certain orders when being mind controlled, but the LG knight turned CE might keep serving his kingdom - but no longer following any 'foolish' rules of honor or mercy. Or he might decide to become a self-serving mercenary or bandit. But probably not "join up with an army he was opposing yesterday" unless their recruiting is amazingly good.

So is there anything backing this up? The BBEG could have access to some kind of control over evil people, and then it works, but without that not as described. It would be amusing if the control was from an angelic artifact that can 'sentence' the wicked to an extended geas - the BBEG just used it for a different purpose than intended. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

In many respects, hiring mercenaries and arming them with nets and lassos for debuffing and then bows and using that rule from Heroes of Battle or Miniatures Handbook to make a missile barrage into an AoE effect for their primary contribution would probably be more effective than elaborate kidnapping schemes.

Then again, if you're doing a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain shtick, I suppose you do need to come up with your monster of the week somehow.

[supersonic29]

zone of silenced
permanencied detect good

I really like the idea of zone of silence actually, with or without moving the altercation via dimension door that could work perfectly alongside the sneak buffs. The permanency-detect good would require me finding the casting services, or a magic item equivalent.


I have a few questions though. Are they going after specific good aligned individuals, only ones that meet certain criteria, or just anyone they can get? Becayse actics for capturing mid level adventurers will be different from, say, press ganging cannon fodder.

Cannon fodder types are more or less the idea, the current goal is to amass sheer numbers. I'll have to look into the harpy, because I imagine if I have a problem it would be whatever their environment is listed as.


For the grappler: the mancatcher, the sharktooth staff, and the pincer staff are exotic reach weapons that initiate a grapple as a free action that don't provoke an AoO. Combine with the Stone Dragon stances Crushing Weight of the Mountain(gain 2d6 + 1.5 Strength mod constriction damage) or Roots of the Mountain(+10 unnamed bonus to resist bull rush, overrun, trips, and grapple attempts made against you, -10 on Tumble checks, and DR 2/-, but ends if moved more than 5 feet for any reason), and you have one of the best grapplers possible without size modifiers.

I'm a big fan of this, and I might actually end up using Roots of the Mountain in a totally separate build having been reminded that it exists :smallbiggrin:


That brings me to the big issue with the overall plan though - being evil != joining the BBEGs army

You aren't wrong, but all I can say is that I guess the recruiting division is that good because I have gotten away with it so far in the campaigns few sessions, it was more performing the kidnapping that was the issue rather than the conversion. :smalltongue: The concern of lawful/n/chaotic is a real one though, it makes me wonder if maybe the division of roles later assigned should be tailored to that alignment dimension.


Then again, if you're doing a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain shtick, I suppose you do need to come up with your monster of the week somehow.

Yeah, this is certainly in the vein of working with what I've chosen at this point. It's for the sake of the interesting concept, definitely not the min max, but that's fine because the PCs are hardly optimized.

[Flickerdart]

Cannon fodder types are more or less the idea, the current goal is to amass sheer numbers.
This doesn't seem cost efficient. Helms are one-use and really expensive compared to what you get.

[Coidzor]

If you just want cannon fodder, the best way to do that is to enslave/recruit a tribe of goblins or kobolds. If you want them to be a longterm investment for team Evil, then give them lots of food in exchange for non-breeding surplus population to act as cannon fodder.

I don't think there's anything that's more massive numbers, quick maturation rate, and able to use tools and tactics like those two races.

Acquire some Were-creatures to give them lycanthropy or emantothropy(ematothropy?) to beef them up. Even some Commoner 1 Kobolds have some threat to them if they're were-Deinonychuses or were-Fleshrakers. Or both were-deinonychuses and were-fleshrakers for a total of 9 HD on them.

As a bonus, if you have a good source of lycanthropy, that's significant savings per creature whose alignment is changed compared to using a helm of opposite alignment.

[Morphic tide]

Having 4 man squads, go for the Paladin of Tyranny variant class for part of your alignment checking build. Paladin of Tyranny is a Lawful Evil Paladin type, being slightly more inclined to care about Cha due to Intimidate synergies in their Aura, and the Cha in that and being a Paladin makes them have use as part of the Diplomancer setup you need for getting the 'recruits' the rest of the way under your control on the field, where it's most useful. If you ignore that option, there's the fact that the Detect Good is infinite use and Paladin of Tyranny gets a Fear aura makes it help a little in suppressing groups. Get access to Detect Chaos or Detect Law to make sure that you get proper recruits, the helm making someone into a Chaotic Evil monster is not a good thing.

The transportation can be managed by a Psion with teleport powers. Infinite PP at level 3 is a thing, after all. This makes having a tiny number of squads more doable. Psions also can get healing and buffs that are a lot more flexible than what magic users get. For example, their attribute buff power is a single power instead of the set of six spell magic users deal with.

For the tying down, a specialized character made to get non-vital Attributes to 0 as reliably as possible is probably the way to go for easy 'recruitment.' Can't fight back if you can't move or are in a coma, after all. Depending on how high CL needs to be and how many caster levels are needed, you can possibly get away with having mundane grapple rather high to get it done faster. I recommend Psionics, for reasons that will be clear with the panic button setup.

For lock-busting, either ignore with teleportation and Knock or get out the overly focused Psionic rogue gish. I recommend the Psionic Rogue gish to stack the panic button as high as it will go. Generally, a level of Psychic Warrior gets you the powers you really need to have for proper combat.

The panic button is to pull Fusion/Affinity Field shenanigans. If you know what I'm talking about, you understand why getting Psionic Warrior is a big boost. Action economy rape, arbitrary DPR, crazy HP and generally being a backup BBEG in all but name. Or ignore that if you want to stay away from the crazy hard fights.

[John Longarrow]

Evil will win because Good is stupid.

Step 1. Create and run charitable organizations. Take care of orphans. Train the youth in useful vocations. Be a GOOD GUY.

Step 2. Get your boss to toss the curse on magic items other than helms. Its one shot but stays around until successful.

Step 3. Get donations to "Reward" heros. This should be public and have stated items you are looking to get. All should be items that are not continually worn (like rings) but used often (like swords).

Step 4. Have hyper diplomatic members of your group deliver "Rewards" to the targets. Targets get their presents in public but are talked into not using them until they get home. "Don't want to scare the kids with your new sword" type stuff.

Step 5. Wait. They are going to blow their saves sooner or later. Plus if everything is told to them when they first get their item they will probably not cast spells to find out more. Also you have patsys in case one does find out its a cursed item. Lovely how your GOOD cause can blame that shape shifter on sneaking into your local casters place and switching out items on them!


Trying to force people to wear a helm is no way near as fun as tricking them into doing it of their own volition.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, that plan is going to work great - it's totally not obvious to anyone who bothers to pay attention that all the heroes your charity rewards are turning evil.

[John Longarrow]

Yeah, that plan is going to work great - it's totally not obvious to anyone who bothers to pay attention that all the heroes your charity rewards are turning evil.

Multiple charities. Get the hero's to start trying to figure out who's infiltrated these "Good organizations". Best of all most of the members ARE GOOD.

And it would work about as well as randomly mugging people to change them evil. Both have the same downfall, evil people. Both will garner attention the same way. Well, the charity route won't have that "I got mugged and all they did was put a pot on my head" problem, i.e. obvious that these people are getting attacked.

Even if they do turn evil, no reason they'd ever help the ones who changed them. More to the point you may be turning those who would otherwise try non-violent methods to curb your boss into killers now bent on getting revenge for those who make them feel bad all the time.

[Flickerdart]

And it would work about as well as randomly mugging people to change them evil. Both have the same downfall, evil people. Both will garner attention the same way. Well, the charity route won't have that "I got mugged and all they did was put a pot on my head" problem, i.e. obvious that these people are getting attacked.
"Hey look, Steve the Paladin became evil!"
"Wasn't he given a Sword of Good by that place?"
"Maybe heroes should stop accepting gifts until we sort this out."
"Nah, they can just spend 100gp to see if the items they are getting are cursed."
"Oh, true! I am glad we live in a society where it's trivial to see what a magic item's properties are before we use them."

[John Longarrow]

"Hey look, Steve the Paladin became evil!"
"Wasn't he given a Sword of Good by that place?"
"Maybe heroes should stop accepting gifts until we sort this out."
"Nah, they can just spend 100gp to see if the items they are getting are cursed."
"Oh, true! I am glad we live in a society where it's trivial to see what a magic item's properties are before we use them."

Likewise
"Steve the Paladin became evil!"
"Lets look into this!"
"Steve was mugged yesterday, and the villains put a helm upon him!"
"Lets use divination to find out who'd doing this and put an end to them!"
Greater Planar Binding
"Hi Mr. Angel, we've got a problem. Paladins or your lord's order are getting turned EVIL by these people, can you help us put a stop to it?"

Real problem is if anyone notices that people are getting their alignment changed its going to be investigated quickly. Going through a patsy who doesn't know anything makes finding out who's behind it a little more difficult than if you do it yourself.

Course if Steve the Paladin is EVIL now, he's much more likely to go on a killing spree if he's trying to hunt down the person who mugged him and put a helm on him. If he was just given a sword he's less likely to go out and do something that will bring attention to him. Plus even if he was given the sword in public, there's going to be a lot less attention on that a week later since people won't be expecting it.

[Flickerdart]

I am not saying that the original plan was good, merely that your plan is far from the brilliant coup you assume it is. But at least the helmet plan can't be foiled with a single first-level spell.

[John Longarrow]

Alarm???

Not saying its a brilliant plan. The whole "Turn hero's EVIL" isn't going to help in the long run. My plan is just to keep the OP from getting ganked in his sleep by a bunch of now EVIL adventurer types.

As a PC, if you get turned EVIL from an item you are given you may or may not go on a killing spree against those who gave you the item, even if you can figure out that what they gave you is what is responsible. If these are items that are left "Hanging on a wall as symbols" and people see them as "Having been around a long time" (Taking old Masterwork weapons and items, then enchanting) most people will assume these hero's got turned in their last adventure and have just been hiding out. After all they KNOW these are old relics of good.

Instead of everyone getting stuff identified, you'r more likely to have any adventurer returning to a city held up by the city guard until they can prove they didn't get their alignment changed.

This could be a problem for non-good heros (say LN) who don't pass the "Detect Good" check at the door.

In all there are much better long term ways of dealing with "Good" adventurers that diplomacy based characters are very good at. The helm deal isn't a great plan in the first place. Just trying to help the OP survive it.

[Flickerdart]

Alarm???
Identify.


This could be a problem for non-good heros (say LN) who don't pass the "Detect Good" check at the door.
Detect evil.

[John Longarrow]

[QUOTE=Flickerdart;21458750]Identify.


Nope... Alarm. 1st level spell that will stop you from getting caught in your sleep. :D

[Flickerdart]

Nope... Alarm. 1st level spell that will stop you from getting caught in your sleep. :D
Just be smaller than Tiny. Magic items all resize to fit the wearer.

[Crake]

Identify.


Nope... Alarm. 1st level spell that will stop you from getting caught in your sleep. :D

Alarm is considered a trap and can be found/disabled with trapfinding.

Identify only has a 1% chance per caster level to reveal a curse, analyze dweomer on the other hand will reveal a cursed item's true nature, but it's a much higher level spell.

[barakaka]

A crazy strong evil fisherman/ogre could harpoon victims and make strength checks to drag them along to the BBEG for converting. I believe the weapon is in Stormwrack. This'd probably strike fear into villagers hearing screaming in the night, then seeing people returned like nothing happened but with a "slight" change of heart... I'd probably just shut my windows and pray to whatever gods I serve, then call for adventurers in the morning.

Adventurers heed the call, see what is taking the people, attempt to kill it and it flees. They give chase and find they're overwhelmed at the time by the BBEG as they burst into his lair. BBEG leaves them trapped in a situation where they can't possibly escape, and they escape. The party realizes they need to get much stronger very quickly and embark on a quest for the item that will give them this power.

That's probably what I'd run, but my games tend to be kinda wacky. As for doing a full conversion, you could just perform a suggestion after putting a helm on them. And have the BBEG fall into a huge sum of money somehow to explain how he bought so many cursed items. Maybe he killed someone for it.

Good luck, and gods be praised!

[Tarvus]

"Hey look, Steve the Paladin became evil!"
"Wasn't he given a Sword of Good by that place?"
"Maybe heroes should stop accepting gifts until we sort this out."
"Nah, they can just spend 100gp to see if the items they are getting are cursed."
"Oh, true! I am glad we live in a society where it's trivial to see what a magic item's properties are before we use them."


An identify spell only has a 1% chance per caster level to reveal a cursed item’s true properties, including the cursed aspect

That said I think magical items that they'd think to try to identify is a bad idea anyway - better something they wouldn't think to check like a gold coin with Magic Aura cast on it.
Who thinks to check gold given as a reward, let alone gold from a good charity?


EDIT: Oh whoops, Crake swordsage'd me on the limitations of Identify. Should have refreshed the page before posting.
I'd also add that people affected by the Helm LIKE their new alignment, and don't want to switch back. Steve the Paladin might be found out when he can no longer cast spells (assuming he doesn't switch into Paladin of Slaughter or Blackguard to maintain his abilities), or when he dings on Evil-dar but he's not going to willingly go to his brothers and ask for help, even if he does stay with the Order he now is diametrically opposed to.

[Coidzor]

That said I think magical items that they'd think to try to identify is a bad idea anyway - better something they wouldn't think to check like a gold coin with Magic Aura cast on it.
Who thinks to check gold given as a reward, let alone gold from a good charity?

OTOH, a coin of opposite alignment would be a bit of a headache to adjudicate, and also involve a lot of risk of it being passed off to someone else or be the one coin at the bottom of the loot sack that ends up unspent.

[Tarvus]

OTOH, a coin of opposite alignment would be a bit of a headache to adjudicate, and also involve a lot of risk of it being passed off to someone else or be the one coin at the bottom of the loot sack that ends up unspent.

That's true. Obviously we should use a disguised Loadstone of Opposite Alignment :smallbiggrin:

I suppose you could arrange to put it straight into his hand, or to have him need/want to buy something with it immediately, but now I think of it, when do you consider gold as being "used"? When it's handled or when its used to purchase something? A HoOA has to be put on to take effect, you can hold it safely.

[Crake]

OTOH, a coin of opposite alignment would be a bit of a headache to adjudicate, and also involve a lot of risk of it being passed off to someone else or be the one coin at the bottom of the loot sack that ends up unspent.

Also, I think being able to curse a coin sets a very nasty precedence for what can actually be enchanted and cursed in such a way.

[John Longarrow]

Kinda why I was thinking if they are given an item upon return from a heroic quest (pretty standard D&D trope) not as many people will expect it to be a cursed item. Coin is problematic for above reasons. Item that is relevant to returning hero (blessed sword of St. kut'em'up given to the paladin, Blessed Mug of the great Guy Ness to the Dwarven Cleric, ect..) is something they will use and not give away.

From what I've seen most PCs won't go around identifying gifts like this given to them by NPCs unless they have an artificers monocle (even then probably won't spot it), so I wouldn't expect good aligned hero's to be too worried if a good aligned organization gave them an item that, as far as they know, is a long held relic.

Most PCs would be looking to find the cause of these alignment shifts based on what the heros were doing BEFORE they came back and claimed their reward. I'd expect the NPCs to do about the same.

All of this assumes high level divinations are off the table, else the OP would be ganked in his garterobe shortly after he did this the first time.

[Eisfalken]

LOL, thinking that turning a PC evil will magically make them the BBEG's buddy is the dumbest thing I think I've heard in a long time.

I'd almost pay to play a paladin in that game, just to watch the DM's face when I start selling off levels into blackguard so I can start showing the OP what real evil looks like once you flip that switch.

I wouldn't care one whit about "curing" myself. Once I go whole-ham evil, I'm basically going to shank the BBEG and take over the scam to collect all items myself. Sounds like a hell of a good item, too much for some random scrub to engage in...

[Crake]

LOL, thinking that turning a PC evil will magically make them the BBEG's buddy is the dumbest thing I think I've heard in a long time.

I'd almost pay to play a paladin in that game, just to watch the DM's face when I start selling off levels into blackguard so I can start showing the OP what real evil looks like once you flip that switch.

I wouldn't care one whit about "curing" myself. Once I go whole-ham evil, I'm basically going to shank the BBEG and take over the scam to collect all items myself. Sounds like a hell of a good item, too much for some random scrub to engage in...

Honestly, I think the idea is to convert to evil to make the victims more amiable to the idea of joining with the BBEG. If we went with my idea, you can trade all the levels into blackguard you want, if you don't join up, you're just gonna sit in the torture dungeon wallowing until your mind is broken, your will shattered, and you're left nothing but a mindless, obedient slave. If necessary, since the BBEG himself is quite powerful, we might toss in a mind rape for the more promising subjects, but those who don't serve will just be killed with a thinuan dagger and stored away for all eternity.

[Eisfalken]

Honestly, I think the idea is to convert to evil to make the victims more amiable to the idea of joining with the BBEG. If we went with my idea, you can trade all the levels into blackguard you want, if you don't join up, you're just gonna sit in the torture dungeon wallowing until your mind is broken, your will shattered, and you're left nothing but a mindless, obedient slave. If necessary, since the BBEG himself is quite powerful, we might toss in a mind rape for the more promising subjects, but those who don't serve will just be killed with a thinuan dagger and stored away for all eternity.

So, even if your plan wasn't factually flawed because of D&D mechanics, your intention is basically to railroad this thing so hard that the PCs literally have no choice but "do as your told or you don't have a character to play in this game".

Well. I guess that's one way to run the game, I guess.

[Coidzor]

LOL, thinking that turning a PC evil will magically make them the BBEG's buddy is the dumbest thing I think I've heard in a long time.

I'd almost pay to play a paladin in that game, just to watch the DM's face when I start selling off levels into blackguard so I can start showing the OP what real evil looks like once you flip that switch.

I wouldn't care one whit about "curing" myself. Once I go whole-ham evil, I'm basically going to shank the BBEG and take over the scam to collect all items myself. Sounds like a hell of a good item, too much for some random scrub to engage in...

It sounds more like going after NPCs than PCs to me. This whole plan makes 0 sense if OP is trying to go after other players' characters, because that would rapidly bring about the end of the game as the players all left.

[Crake]

It sounds more like going after NPCs than PCs to me. This whole plan makes 0 sense if OP is trying to go after other players' characters, because that would rapidly bring about the end of the game as the players all left.

Yeah, this is the impression I had as well. The player playing the BBEG is going after NPCs to add them to his army.

Also, my plan specifically wouldn't work against the party because they (presumably) spend all their time together, wheras my plan was predicated on the idea of ganking 1 person at a time while they were alone.

Speaking of which, instead of making baseless claims of my plan being flawed, could you point out in what way it is supposedly flawed?

[John Longarrow]

Crake,
I'm guessing the OP, who's running a sub-villain for his DM friend, is doing this to reduce the ability of good forces to resist an evil take over. Its not about making them allies so much as reducing the forces the good guys will have available and to incite paranoia and fear in the local population.

Not the best way to go about this, since if you can turn them evil you can probably gank them and steal their bodies for a lot less.

[Coidzor]

Crake,
I'm guessing the OP, who's running a sub-villain for his DM friend, is doing this to reduce the ability of good forces to resist an evil take over. Its not about making them allies so much as reducing the forces the good guys will have available and to incite paranoia and fear in the local population.

Not the best way to go about this, since if you can turn them evil you can probably gank them and steal their bodies for a lot less.

I thought Crake's idea was the one involving sneaking in while they were asleep, CDGing them non-fatally or otherwise rendering them unable to act, and absconding with them for processing.

The processing is the part that OP seemed to indicate was being fiated/handwaved by the DM, so in this case, yes, just getting ahold of them is for the better, as it doesn't seem like turning their bodies into intelligent undead that retain their class levels and (most of) their ability scores is necessarily in the cards.

Unless we can get a Spell-stitched Undead minion or member of the quirky miniboss squad that can turn people into Dread Warriors for free within ECL 5-10.

[Crake]

Crake,
I'm guessing the OP, who's running a sub-villain for his DM friend, is doing this to reduce the ability of good forces to resist an evil take over. Its not about making them allies so much as reducing the forces the good guys will have available and to incite paranoia and fear in the local population.

Not the best way to go about this, since if you can turn them evil you can probably gank them and steal their bodies for a lot less.

The OP did specifically say that this was their "recruiting methodology" so I assumed he wanted them to actively support somehow.


I thought Crake's idea was the one involving sneaking in while they were asleep, CDGing them non-fatally or otherwise rendering them unable to act, and absconding with them for processing.

The processing is the part that OP seemed to indicate was being fiated/handwaved by the DM, so in this case, yes, just getting ahold of them is for the better, as it doesn't seem like turning their bodies into intelligent undead that retain their class levels and (most of) their ability scores is necessarily in the cards.

Unless we can get a Spell-stitched Undead minion or member of the quirky miniboss squad that can turn people into Dread Warriors for free within ECL 5-10.

Turning them into undead as a means of controlling them/adding them to your army isn't entirely a bad idea, and if all the kidnapped people were brought to the one holding facility, you wouldn't need the capability on each team of ECL5-10, just a single dude under the BBEG who could do it at a central location.

However, turning them into undead isn't the method the OP wanted, I mean, maybe he's open to other suggestions, but the plan I offered was designed around the idea that he wanted to use the helm on them. It was by no means a complete start to finish method of induction, it was just the start. From there, inducting the kidnapped minions-to-be can be achieved in many ways, but that was beyond the scope of the help I was offering. I didn't intend for it to be seen as DM handwaving, it was more "you can figure the next part out yourself".

[supersonic29]

As was alluded, the idea was indeed NPCs being targeted rather than PCs. Would someone try to flip the alignment of a PC at some point? Probably, but that happening certainly isn't the game-plan. It's also worth saying that the game plan isn't flawlessly wiping the party off the campaign setting, I know that's not what the DM wants out of me as a villain. The term 'Saturday morning cartoon villain' is a fair explanation. :smallbiggrin:

As for undead, I hadn't really thought about it because the first thing that would come to mind would be Necropolitan, but as I recall that is a willing involvement ritual and they're still intelligent. If I were to aim for alignment flipping followed by an undead conversion to make them more cooperative, what is the easiest acquired template to work with? I suppose a template or spell effect that involves a very suggestible/brainwashed state works well too, and I'd almost prefer not being the next in line for villain with undead minions, but if the logistics are that much better it's hard to turn away from it. Hell, I wouldn't be opposed to making them living constructs.

[danielxcutter]

As was alluded, the idea was indeed NPCs being targeted rather than PCs. Would someone try to flip the alignment of a PC at some point? Probably, but that happening certainly isn't the game-plan. It's also worth saying that the game plan isn't flawlessly wiping the party off the campaign setting, I know that's not what the DM wants out of me as a villain. The term 'Saturday morning cartoon villain' is a fair explanation. :smallbiggrin:

As for undead, I hadn't really thought about it because the first thing that would come to mind would be Necropolitan, but as I recall that is a willing involvement ritual and they're still intelligent. If I were to aim for alignment flipping followed by an undead conversion to make them more cooperative, what is the easiest acquired template to work with? I suppose a template or spell effect that involves a very suggestible/brainwashed state works well too, and I'd almost prefer not being the next in line for villain with undead minions, but if the logistics are that much better it's hard to turn away from it. Hell, I wouldn't be opposed to making them living constructs.

Vamp them. Bam, instant intelligent undead.

[Crake]

The main problem with undead is controlling them in any sufficient capacity. If the BBEG works for some kind of deific power, that does make things a lot easier, clerics can work on bringing up their cleric level high enough to rebuke them into being controlled, though depending on the cleric, the undead, and their respective levels, you may have a bit of an issue amassing a proper army with that unless the undead can also create spawn of their own, but then you need to be careful of branches of spawn being cut off. My suggestion would be to ensure that the undead under your direct control should be the only ones able to make spawn, so for that purpose, you want an undead that has no limit on the number of spawn it can personally have.

Additionally, you want something that is inconspicuous enough to allow the people in particular to return to their stations I presume, acting almost like sleeper agents? Probably with some kind of gentle repose item to stop them obviously decaying.

An alternative might be to implant necrotic cysts into your targets, then force some kind of item akin to the fanatic's collar from book of vile darkness, though it would be significantly cheaper due to not being based on dominate monster. Because it is based on necrotic domination as well, it wouldn't be beaten by traditional means, like protection from evil (specifically called out as not functioning to prevent it's control by necrotic cyst), and it's derivatives, magic circle and hallow, hell even mind blank wont stop it, because it's not actually mind affecting.

Since the fanatic's collar is based on a 9th level spell, but must be put on by a willing person (though that can be solved by just necrotic dominating them to begin with to make them willing), it's a measly 30k. Reverse engineering the price, it seems to drop it from it's (17*9*2000/2=) 153,000gp price, down to a measly 30k, which seems to be roughly a 1/5th price drop. If we do the same for necrotic domination it drops to (4*7*2000/2=) 28,000gp, dropping it to 1/5th that makes it ~6,000gp for a collar of necrotic domination. With all that, you should have a pretty decently priced mind control scheme going, though it will only work on humanoids.

[supersonic29]

Vampire is certainly the low-paperwork version for what I show to the DM, but it requires me to either have legitimately loyal followers who are vampires initially or to be one myself. I like the sound of this cyst/collar business, (apart from the fact that cysts are actually disgusting and who would like them at all) which book should I find them in?

[Crake]

Vampire is certainly the low-paperwork version for what I show to the DM, but it requires me to either have legitimately loyal followers who are vampires initially or to be one myself. I like the sound of this cyst/collar business, (apart from the fact that cysts are actually disgusting and who would like them at all) which book should I find them in?

The mother cyst feat, which grants access to all the other spells is found in Libris Mortis, and the cyst can be manifested deep within the body, so as to not show any outward signs. It can also only be removed via surgery which can possibly kill the host

[Tarvus]

Kinda why I was thinking if they are given an item upon return from a heroic quest (pretty standard D&D trope) not as many people will expect it to be a cursed item. Coin is problematic for above reasons. Item that is relevant to returning hero (blessed sword of St. kut'em'up given to the paladin, Blessed Mug of the great Guy Ness to the Dwarven Cleric, ect..) is something they will use and not give away.

From what I've seen most PCs won't go around identifying gifts like this given to them by NPCs unless they have an artificers monocle (even then probably won't spot it), so I wouldn't expect good aligned hero's to be too worried if a good aligned organization gave them an item that, as far as they know, is a long held relic.

I don't know what type of players you have, but mine would absolutely would use identify on ANY magical item they received. For normal magical items, you need it for the activation method and remaining charges and for artifacts you need it for the strict definitions of the abilities.

Not being worried about it being cursed and not identifying it are two different things, at least to my players.


Honestly, I think the idea is to convert to evil to make the victims more amiable to the idea of joining with the BBEG.

Also theres a host of spells, abilities and artifact effects that benefit. For example a HoOA'd formerly good creature that has been Dominated no longer gets a new saving throw at +2 for committing an evil act. Diplomancy and things like Evil Brand & Dark Speech can be used to convince them to follow. The sympathy spell can be used to bring them together.

[John Longarrow]

I don't know what type of players you have, but mine would absolutely would use identify on ANY magical item they received. For normal magical items, you need it for the activation method and remaining charges and for artifacts you need it for the strict definitions of the abilities.

Sounds like you've been pulling notes from the Rat Bastard DMs handbook then. PCs buy a 500gp item only to discover its not exactly what they thought, so they go ahead and dump gold on an identify. But first they have to have the pearl appraised by two sources to make sure its really a 100gp pearl first.

[Crake]

I don't know what type of players you have, but mine would absolutely would use identify on ANY magical item they received. For normal magical items, you need it for the activation method and remaining charges and for artifacts you need it for the strict definitions of the abilities.

Not being worried about it being cursed and not identifying it are two different things, at least to my players.

As people have already noted, identifying an item only has a 1% chance per caster level to identify the item as a cursed item, which can be even further fooled with nystul's magic aura if so desired. Only analyze dweomer has a 100% chance to identify a curse, and most people don't go so hardcore on their identification (I do though, I absolutely love the analyze dweomer spell, it's great for identifying magic items that your enemies have mid combat :smalltongue:)

Also, identify can't identify artifacts, it's right therein the spell "Identify does not function when used on an artifact."

[Tarvus]

As people have already noted, identifying an item only has a 1% chance per caster level to identify the item as a cursed item.
I know, I was one of them :smallbiggrin:

But the argument here a magical item is the best place to hide a curse, but that is exactly the type of item that gets the most scrutiny. 1% is not a lot for a single casting, but when you're building an "army" small chances add up. Even if you do it only 50 times (and that's a very small army), you have a 40% chance of getting caught. That is not a good starting point for a plan.


which can be even further fooled with nystul's magic aura if so desired.
Magic Aura triggers a will save to disbelieve when you use Identify or similarly examine it. It's not difficult to beat, but yeah it does add another layer of protection. Question is, why not try to avoid the situation where you can be detected and have to beat saves all together.


identify can't identify artifacts, it's right therein the spell "Identify does not function when used on an artifact.
My bad, I don't know why but for some reason I thinking that was only for Major Artifacts. Mea culpa.


Sounds like you've been pulling notes from the Rat Bastard DMs handbook then. PCs buy a 500gp item only to discover its not exactly what they thought, so they go ahead and dump gold on an identify. But first they have to have the pearl appraised by two sources to make sure its really a 100gp pearl first.

Not particularly, or at least I don't think so. For one Detect Magic is only a cantrip and one of the more useful ones to have prepared. It is cheap to cast and if you really want, you can easily get it Permanency'd or made into a cheap but useful item.

Magic Aura is a low level spell, and the save is triggered when magically examined (for which I'd count Detect Magic). Just using Detect Magic and comparing the expected school/strength to the one you actually read is sufficient for many applications. If it differs from what you were told, or you make the save on a Magic Aura, you know to then use Identify or Analyze Dweomer.

And context has a lot to do with it. Realistically any store that routinely sells false or shoddy merchandise will shut down, lose custom or at least gain a reputation. I wouldn't cheat players if they went to a popular shop in the reputable Market District, but I might if they took no precautions when going to the Black Marketeer that offers deals too good to be true and has a reputation for cheating rubes.

Peasants might have a magical item (which in itself can be suspect depending on the size, composition and wealth of the village), but if they don't use it themselves there is no guarantee they accurately remember its abilities or with sufficient detail, if they even knew them all to begin with. And again context - a reward out of the blue, a village with a powerful magical item or a Charity commissioning magical items when they're meant to be saving orphans are all fairly suspect.

Do you think I'm being unfair to my players?

[Mystral]

The overall goal is that they identify good-aligned individuals and drop a helm of opposite alignment on them, this is their recruiting methodology.

That sounds like a horrible idea. Now you have a guy who is evil as they get and who has no reason to join your cause and every reason to hate you (because you subjected him to something against his will).

[Crake]

That sounds like a horrible idea. Now you have a guy who is evil as they get and who has no reason to join your cause and every reason to hate you (because you subjected him to something against his will).

Except that the helm of opposite alignment specifically says the subject is happy with their new alignment and has no inclination to return to their old alignment, so if anything, they would view what you did to them as liberating, and be thankful for it.

[Coidzor]

Hmm, yeah, a medal or something that's supposed to be non-magical would probably fly under the radar, come to think of it.

Of course, then you have the issue of them having their alignment changed on the spot when they get the medal or them not wearing the medal immediately for some kind of ceremony and the medal getting tossed in a pack somewhere and forgotten.

[Mystral]

Except that the helm of opposite alignment specifically says the subject is happy with their new alignment and has no inclination to return to their old alignment, so if anything, they would view what you did to them as liberating, and be thankful for it.

And then they'd stab you in the back anyway because of evil.

I have to admit, I never was a fan of the HOOA. Too many ethical questions.

[Crake]

And then they'd stab you in the back anyway because of evil.

I have to admit, I never was a fan of the HOOA. Too many ethical questions.

That's more chaotic than evil, just saying.

And really? Ethics? It's not like it's good people converting evil, its the opposite, who cares about ethics?

[supersonic29]

That idea of 'feeling liberated' was pretty much the theory I was riding with the idea in the first place, yeah. Have them happy they were converted, then make them a solid job offer now that their alignment probably doesn't mesh with the quaint village you took them from.

[John Longarrow]

Tarvus
Detect magic to make sure it seems OK makes perfect sense. That is not casting an identify on every item though. If the players are gifted with something useful for completing an adventure it makes perfect sense for them to see if it looks legit. If they don't have an artificers monocle though, dropping one hundred gold may be seen not only as disrespectful (What? We give you a holy relic from the church of Palor and you doubt it?) but also a continual drain for relatively low level items.

Supersonic29,
Most of their willingness to take the job would depend on their previous alignment and how they had been treated. Paladin who's been humble all their life and turning the other cheek when insulted by the towns folk may decide, once they are CE, to go on a killing spree against those who have wronged them. Likewise turning a paragon of liberty who's spent their life freeing those in tyranny and oppression LE may just give you someone willing to put a knife you your back to take YOUR job.

Problem with turning mid to high level characters EVIL is that they are still mid to high level characters. They now will gravitate to those roles that mid to high level EVIL beings seek, namely power and prestige. Not as likely to take a job from you if they think they can kill and replace your (or just kill you and loot your stuff).

In all any plan that revolves around turning people evil without giving them a very solid reason to follow you probably won't work. After all, Evil is not known for its willingness to work well with others. :D

[supersonic29]

Though the plan never was to do this to high level characters, more like level 1 commoners.

[John Longarrow]

Though the plan never was to do this to high level characters, more like level 1 commoners.

Dropping thousands of gold to turn commoners EVIL???

OK, Gotta get in touch with your BBEG. I can get him a much better ROI using other, more useful techniques to take over the world.

Step 1. Start up a charitable organization, fully funded by him, that helps make these peoples lives BETTER. Were talking an investment of a hundred GP per year in infrastructure, healing, and education.

Step 2. start a movement based off of land reform, political reform, and social justice. Doesn't mater if your EVIL or not, just get the people behind you.

Step 3. Start a peaceful revolution based on non-compliance. Look to Ghandi or MLK for inspiration.

Really hard for all of the good aligned peoples to fight against commoners when the commoners simply cease complying with laws they declare are unjust.

Step 4. Let the people choose you as their new overlord. If you have the funds for HOOAs, you should have plenty to run your government as a beloved man of the people.

Who cares about making low level NPCs evil? There are far better ways of gaining control if you have that kind of resources!

[Crake]

Dropping thousands of gold to turn commoners EVIL???

OK, Gotta get in touch with your BBEG. I can get him a much better ROI using other, more useful techniques to take over the world.



You make that sounds like you need a separate helm for each commoner. You only need 1 helm and you can convert as many commoners as you want, so really, 4000gp, if you convert 4000 commoners, that's just 1gp per commoner.

[Tarvus]

You make that sounds like you need a separate helm for each commoner. You only need 1 helm and you can convert as many commoners as you want, so really, 4000gp, if you convert 4000 commoners, that's just 1gp per commoner.

You do. Filling out because not 10 characters


When a helm of opposite alignment has functioned once, it loses its magical properties.

[Crake]

You do. Filling out because not 10 characters

Oh huh, I've never actually noticed that line before :smallconfused: Well, then in that case, yeah, might be a little cost inefficient to do that.