Monk: Way of the Four Elements (homebrew attempt) [PEACH]

[Ugganaut]

Was after a simple enough variant to the PHB version. There was one I saw online that was really good, but was the size of a small book. I was wondering if this attempt was balanced enough, or is it too overpowered?
Way of the Four Elements (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rJNlEIG7e)

The idea of the techniques, is a bonus action option instead of Flurry of Blows. FoB still does the most straight up damage, so it will still be used I think.
I didn't add the condition of "after you take the Attack action" to techniques. Should I? So its possible to cast a spell, and use a technique. As you don't get spells until level 6, this was my attempt at a War Magic type effect, with techniques all being single target MA attacks(although some at range).

The spells are still very Ki intensive, but you have variety(one of each element at each feature), and each feature that has spells has a non-Ki aspect, so you could ignore spells, only using techniques, and still feel like you're getting something out of each feature. I like the idea of spells, and agree they should be costly, but if you want to focus more on your other monk abilities like dodge/bonus action attack/stunning strike, then you should have that option without "wasting" your subclass features.

Needs polish, but would love to get some feedback to see if I'm on the right track.
Thanks

[Llama513]

I like the idea, but it feels stifling in comparison to the original archetype, as you loose some of the utility abilities that it had, and it doesn't give you the ability to focus in on one or two elements, you are forced to be spread out, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing in terms of simplifying the class. But I feel you should give the ability to focus in on one or two elements, possibly by having them select a certain number of the options granted at each level, and adding some more options so that you can focus in on one or two elements if you wanted to.

The other issue being that you lose some of what made the archetype unique by not having the AOE spells as they were the only monk that had AOE in the PHB, but I do like the idea that you are going for, I just feel it needs a little bit of tweaking so that it is truly unique in what it does.

[Ugganaut]

...you loose some of the utility abilities that it had
I thought the technique's had some decent mobility and range for combat. Not a lot of out-of-combat stuff, except hold breath and water walking. Elemental Attunement can be added back in, its basically a cantrip. Could certainly add in some utility to match the original. Any thoughts?



...it doesn't give you the ability to focus in on one or two elements, you are forced to be spread out
This was on purpose. I didn't like that the Four Elements monk felt more like one or two elements monk. I know the description mentioned some focusing. You can specialize by where you spend your Ki points. If you want to be a fire guy, thats what you'd spend your Ki on. But you have the ability to do the other stuff, as it was part of your training in the Four Elements. That was the reasoning there.


The other issue being that you lose some of what made the archetype unique by not having the AOE spells as they were the only monk that had AOE in the PHB, but I do like the idea that you are going for, I just feel it needs a little bit of tweaking so that it is truly unique in what it does.
I agree it definitely needs tweaking, just not sure what yet :) I thought there was enough AoE, what in particular was it missing that you thought was holding it back as the AoE subclass?
It has Burning Hands, Ice Knife, Gust of Wind, Fireball, and the Investitures each have an AoE component I believe. I was going for one of each element at each tier, so Thunderwave lost out to Earthen Grasp for earth(as a Hold Person replacement), Cone of Cold and the Walls lost out to the Investiture theme. Shatter was a small AoE, I thought Ice Knife covered that nicely.

I'll definitely add Elemental Attunement, I missed that.

Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

[Llama513]

My bad I missed the AOE spells, whoops, as for the utility I could see giving them something that is more utility that could fill the role of having a bit more focus in your study, a passive ability like the holding your breath, but changing it based on what element you choose at 5th level, and then having it possibly increase in strength at higher levels but it does not necessarily have to.
such as having a water focus being to gain a swim speed and amphibious, Air double jump height/ distance and you don't need 5 feet of movement to get the running jumps, Earth you ignore difficult terrain, Fire you ignore the affects of extreme heat and cold


The other thing is I would tweak the way the elemental techniques work, have just a base affect for them that doesn't cost Ki, and then upgraded affects that get stronger as you spend more Ki, such as having the base Jumping Attack be a 15 ft jump with no advantage, and then the first Ki point spent brings it to what it is now, and then each subsequent Ki point, increases the distance you jump by 5 ft and adds a d4 of damage or something like that, the base for shattering strike being the extra damage die and double damage against objects, spending 1 Ki point gives you the reactions and disadvantage against stunning strike and each Ki point spent after that could increase the duration that it lasts, Fire Serpents could be the base being the fire damage and 15 ft, and each Ki point spent after that adds on a damage die, and Water Whip I could see having the base being exactly where it is, and then each point of Ki spent giving either 5 ft extra reach and pull, or allowing for grappling the target, or affecting more targets or adding cold damage, I personally like adding either the extra reach or the grappling options.

I would also like to see an option that does lightning damage some where, preferable from the air choice, as it is tied to Air and your ignore the resistance to it but have no option to deal lightning damage, my personal recommendation is to replace gaseous form with Lightning Bolt, and then make Gust of Winds Misty Step, or something like that and an option for Acid Damage from one of the Earth options, and if you could maybe adding thunder damage, although thunder and acid damage I feel are a lot less necessary and needed for the class, but with how closely lightning is tied to air in Dnd not having the option feels weird.

The last thing being that I would recommend having it be where you choose one, maybe two of the damage types listed to ignore when you take a long rest

[Ugganaut]

I didn't want to change the structure of the Techniques, because I'm trying to balance them against Open Hand. It gives you a free control benefit on top of Flurry of Blows, both attacks. So I reduced the damage due to range and increased versatility, and only one attack for the 1 Ki. You can't boost the Flurry of Blows damage with Ki, so I was sticking with that for Techniques. The challenge is trying to balance all that out, like what should the range on those things be. For example, I think Shattering Strike might be too strong, that Stunning Strike part needs to be removed.
I also like the idea that the "intro" elemental stuff, almost cantrip-like, all elemental monks know. From there, maybe add the specialization?

I agree with the lightning/thunder, I'll look into that later. I don't think it matters if all monks have access to all elements(as it was first written), but if I add specialization, it'll be important to have those damage types. My fear with specialization, is that 90% of people would choose fire, so you'd have to balance it so all elements look tempting. If someone wants to go Air, you don't want them feeling gimped compared to Fire for example.

Here's my thoughts so far, a Yin-Yang theme for specialization, where you chose two opposing elements for lvl 6 and 11, then at 17 you choose one element. I have to go out, so I'll look over this again tonight if you've got some feedback. Each Yin-Yang will have 2 or 3 spell options plus the stuff below, so hopefully an AoE and a control or utility spell etc.

6 - Yin Yang: choose either [Air/Earth] or [Fire/Water]
Air/Earth: While you have at least 3 Ki, you gain advantage on Strength(Athletics) checks, and you increase your speed by 5ft.
Fire/Water: While you have at least 3 Ki, you gain advantage on Dexterity(Acrobatics) checks, and you ignore extreme temperature effects.

11 - Mastery - Ignore a creatures resistance to your elements (see Adaption for list).
Air/Earth: Advantage on saving throws that would knock you prone, push you or pull you.
Fire/Water: Advantage on saving throws to be retrained or reduce speed.

17 - Adaption: Choose an element from your Yin Yang class feature. You gain Resistance as shown below:
Air: Thunder and Lightning
Earth: Acid and Thunder
Fire: Fire
Water: Cold

Needs better wording, but those are the notes so far.

[Llama513]

I didn't want to change the structure of the Techniques, because I'm trying to balance them against Open Hand. It gives you a free control benefit on top of Flurry of Blows, both attacks. So I reduced the damage due to range and increased versatility, and only one attack for the 1 Ki. You can't boost the Flurry of Blows damage with Ki, so I was sticking with that for Techniques. The challenge is trying to balance all that out, like what should the range on those things be. For example, I think Shattering Strike might be too strong, that Stunning Strike part needs to be removed.
I also like the idea that the "intro" elemental stuff, almost cantrip-like, all elemental monks know. From there, maybe add the specialization?

I agree with the lightning/thunder, I'll look into that later. I don't think it matters if all monks have access to all elements(as it was first written), but if I add specialization, it'll be important to have those damage types. My fear with specialization, is that 90% of people would choose fire, so you'd have to balance it so all elements look tempting. If someone wants to go Air, you don't want them feeling gimped compared to Fire for example.

Here's my thoughts so far, a Yin-Yang theme for specialization, where you chose two opposing elements for lvl 6 and 11, then at 17 you choose one element. I have to go out, so I'll look over this again tonight if you've got some feedback. Each Yin-Yang will have 2 or 3 spell options plus the stuff below, so hopefully an AoE and a control or utility spell etc.

6 - Yin Yang: choose either [Air/Earth] or [Fire/Water]
Air/Earth: While you have at least 3 Ki, you gain advantage on Strength(Athletics) checks, and you increase your speed by 5ft.
Fire/Water: While you have at least 3 Ki, you gain advantage on Dexterity(Acrobatics) checks, and you ignore extreme temperature effects.

11 - Mastery - Ignore a creatures resistance to your elements (see Adaption for list).
Air/Earth: Advantage on saving throws that would knock you prone, push you or pull you.
Fire/Water: Advantage on saving throws to be retrained or reduce speed.

17 - Adaption: Choose an element from your Yin Yang class feature. You gain Resistance as shown below:
Air: Thunder and Lightning
Earth: Acid and Thunder
Fire: Fire
Water: Cold

Needs better wording, but those are the notes so far.
I like that idea, What I would do if you were to do that is have a universal item, so that you don't loose the ability to use all of them, I would like to see something that was single target that grew stronger, or quite possibly to be given at 17th, but then again you do have the investitures which give good over time bonuses, so I like them, but I do also like the idea of having a really powerful elemental strike that you could unleash, but at the same idea, I don't think it needs to be added I just like the idea, but the Investitures are fine as well.

[Ugganaut]

Updated idea.

6 - Yin Yang: choose either [Air/Earth] or [Fire/Water]
Air/Earth: While you have at least 3 Ki, you gain advantage on Strength(Athletics) checks, and you increase your speed by 5ft.
Thunderwave(2), Maximilian's Earthen Grasp(3), Fog Cloud(2)
Fire/Water: While you have at least 3 Ki, you gain advantage on Dexterity(Acrobatics) checks, and you ignore extreme temperature effects.
Burning Hands(2), Ice Knife(2), Armor of Agathys(2)

11 - Mastery -
Air/Earth: Advantage on saving throws that would knock you prone, push you or pull you.
Gaseous Form(4), Stoneskin(5), Lightning Bolt(4)
Fire/Water: Advantage on saving throws to be retrained or reduce speed.
Fireball(4), Water Walking(4), Sleet Storm(4)

17 - Adaption: Choose an element from your Yin Yang class feature.
Air: You gain resistance, and ignore resistance of Thunder and Lightning. Investiture of Wind(7)
Earth: You gain resistance, and ignore resistance of Acid and Thunder. Investiture of Stone(7)
Fire: You gain resistance, and ignore resistance of Fire. Investiture of Flame(7)
Water: You gain resistance, and ignore resistance of Cold. Investiture of Ice(7)

I didn't add the single target idea that scales, because single target monks have their MA and Flurry of Blows. I tried to add some offensive AoE, Defensive and Utility spells to each Yin Yang(overall).
Enough of the spells will have the "At Higher Levels" feature, so that scales enough. MA damage dice scales, so the single target and techniques scale.
Because level 11 has spells and the Advantage passive, I moved the resistance stuff both to 17, as it feels more like a stronger 17th feature.
I added Lightning Bolt as you suggested, so you'd either have that or Fireball as your big elemental AoE at 11th level. I didn't like the acid spells, but Air and Earth get two resistances because they are less common, so the Acid is more for the resistance as opposed to the ignore resistance, the Thunder is the ignore side of it. Earth is the weakest of the ignores, but Earth Grasp is bludgeoning.
How's that look?

Edit: I've updated the link.

[Llama513]

I like it, the only thing I would recommend is having something for if you wanted to go universal, I am not sure at them moment of what to have the passives be, my thought being allow them to choose advantage on either Athletics or Acrobatics, and either the Movement speed or the Extreme Weather affects at 6th, with the option to change at the long rest. Follow a similar option for 11th level. 17th they could get the reaction resistance, or give them a certain number to select, I am still a little wary of having the constant ignore resistance to multiple element types, I would suggest having them choose one at the long rest, but that is just me, as giving multiple seems really powerful as there is a feat that is dedicated to doing just that and it only gives the one element. Whoops read through the resistance and ignore to quickly and missed the wording on it my bad.

You could call the universal option balance and shape it around that,

I like the passives that you have, I Also think that having the options that I had suggested as the single element passives would be fine to have as the ones for the elemental combinations, especially if you keep the requirement of having at least three Ki or even possibly increased the Ki requirement, possibly increasing it to 4 Ki, I realize that when you first get the abilities that is a costly limitation, but it makes sense as those passives are pretty powerful, and I feel they would balance out the minimum Ki requirement being 4, and then if you were to run out of Ki, Perfect Self gives you just enough Ki to keep them going, my thoughts being that in between battle you were able to draw a little bit of energy from the elements

[Ugganaut]

The only thing I can think of for a universal option, without making up something seperate, is at lvl 11, allow them to pick the level 6 option they didn't pick the first time. It means you wouldn't get those second tier spells, but you can still put extra Ki points into the lower level spells. Then at lvl 17, you can pick either.

Been a bit side tracked with the new fighter UA today :)

[Llama513]

The only thing I can think of for a universal option, without making up something seperate, is at lvl 11, allow them to pick the level 6 option they didn't pick the first time. It means you wouldn't get those second tier spells, but you can still put extra Ki points into the lower level spells. Then at lvl 17, you can pick either.

Been a bit side tracked with the new fighter UA today :)

I like that option, and so was I, it's all good