Who Can Beat Dr. Manhattan?

[....]

I say nobody.

[sealemon]

There's ALWAYS somebody. In Manhatten's case, I'd go with the really cosmic guys like The Living Tribunal, Darkseid, Galactus, The Beyonder, The Guardians (Green Lantern), ect.

Maybe Thor when he had the Odin power...

[Tirian]

Sure, because Doc is the only superpowered person on Earth Watchmen. You-know-who accomplished the evil plot in spite of him, which was all the "beating" that was necessary.

In a broader sense, Dr. Manhattan = Captain Atom, who is far from undefeated. (To drop one name, Parasite.) But, like Doc, destroying him doesn't destroy him, it just causes him to warp into the future.

[....]

Sure, because Doc is the only superpowered person on Earth Watchmen. You-know-who accomplished the evil plot in spite of him, which was all the "beating" that was necessary.

In a broader sense, Dr. Manhattan = Captain Atom, who is far from undefeated. (To drop one name, Parasite.) But, like Doc, destroying him doesn't destroy him, it just causes him to warp into the future.

But even Veidt didn't 'beat' him. Manhattan dosn't really give a damn if 3 million people die. The only reason he was trying to stop Veidt is because of Silk Spectre. And he was pretty close to smooshing Veidt into a paste after he reformed himself.

[Tirian]

The extent of DM's powers were unable to be measured in the Watchmen universe, and the matter correctly had little interest to Alan Moore. I don't think that there is any amount of physical or energy-based damage that can be done to his body that would disrupt his restorative powers, but one might assume that he would be weak against magic. Perhaps his consciousness could be sent to an alternate universe like Qward or the Phantom Zone, but I don't know that it's possible to localize his consciousness because I don't think it's inside his body.

Heck, in DM's case, "can" probably isn't a sufficiently precise term either. When Janey asks him why he didn't prevent Kennedy's assassination, Jon said that it was because it had already happened. So it might be that anyone with an intrinsic field destablizer could destroy DM just as long as (he believed that) determinism held that he wasn't supposed to reform this time.

[Tallis]

Moonstone. She convinced the original Moonstone to give up his power to her and has manipulated the Thunderbolts throughout their existence. Psychology is the way to go here I think.

Possibly someone with radiation based powers like Radioactive Man or the Hulk. No telling how their powers might interact with his.

Molecule Man
Scarlet Witch
Mr Fantastic
Dr Doom
Silver Surfer
Kang the Conqueror
Immortus
Professor X
Pheonix
Emma Frost

I', sure someone will bring up Squirrel Girl and Wolverine due to plot immunity.

[SilverClawShift]

But even **** didn't 'beat' him. Manhattan dosn't really give a damn if *************. The only reason he was trying to ********* is because of *******. And he was pretty close to ****** after *******.

Spoiler much there?

[SilverClawShift]

Also, I agree that DM can't really be beaten by anyone, except someone designed and scripted specifically to beat him.

"The superman exists, and he's american" is the cleaned up quote, remember. "God exists, and he's american".

Dr. M's big problem is that he's so utterly dettached from everything in a chronological sense (among other ways) is that he doesn't even view things in the sense of 'has happened, is happening, will happen'. He's so ridiculously omniscient and powerful that as far as he's concerned, everything you're doing just is.

[Invisible Queen]

The Saint of Killers. :)

[SilverClawShift]

The Saint of Killers. :)

...

...Allright MAYBE. MAYBE. It'd be a question.

[Elliot Kane]

The real question is how far Dr Manhattan can be said to have any power at all. You can't truly trick or outwit him, because he knows everything that's going to happen. He'll only 'lose' if it's pre-scripted - and only he can see the script.

He is a slave of his own limitless power, in that it effectively neuters him. An interesting contradiction :)

[Viscount Einstrauss]

It's interesting. Perhaps his powers are a pure manifestation of fate, thus only being usable in predetermined manners? Did the doctor receive his powers solely because the universe's continued existence required him to receive them?

He's not actually beatable, then, unless he's meant to be beaten. You can't control whether he wins or loses. Perhaps he'll randomly be hit by a car when his powers seem to inexplicably leave him and die, perhaps he's meant to live until the end of the universe itself. Only he'd know for sure. Only one person can kill him if he's truly meant to be killed.

[Ozymandias]

I think he'd be beaten by a reality warper, as his godlike powers are of the "limitless matter/energy manipulation" category, as opposed to the "the laws of physics don't work unless I say so" one.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah. Like people who understand this topic are going to trust that screen name.

Lame joke? Lame joke. Anyway, Squirrel Girl.

[Ozymandias]

Yeah. Like people who understand this topic are going to trust that screen name.

Lame joke? Lame joke. Anyway, Squirrel Girl.

Actually, it's from the poem.

Really. I'm a big fan of the Shelleys.

Also, I second Squirrel Girl.

[Invisible Queen]

I'd argue Dr Manhattan's fatalistic apathy comes not from godlike precognition, but from very human weakness. He can see the entirety of space-time, but he has to process that information through a mind that's still basically human. It could be he sees only a possible future. He thinks it's already happening and therefore doesn't understand that he can change it.

I like to think when he says "I'm killing someone . . . their identity is uncertain", he can't see who it is because it could be either Rorschach or Ozymandias. Though everything that happens in the book is a strictly logical, sensible, nearly infallible chain of events, so it's hard to tell if his foresight is absolute or if he makes lucky guesses.

[Rare Pink Leech]

I'm in agreement with everyone who said that anyone can beat Dr Manhattan, since he doesn't really fight back. If he is meant to lose, he loses, but if he is meant to win, he wins. Not much else to say.

However, I do agree that the people most likely to do it are reality warpers, who (as far as I can tell) are the only ones with abilities more powerful than Doc Manhattan's matter/energy manipulation, or a master manipulator.


I like to think when he says "I'm killing someone . . . their identity is uncertain", he can't see who it is because it could be either Rorschach or Ozymandias. Though everything that happens in the book is a strictly logical, sensible, nearly infallible chain of events, so it's hard to tell if his foresight is absolute or if he makes lucky guesses.

Hmmm ... interesting way of looking at it. I always assumed he couldn't see who he killed because of the interference of the tachyon fields (is that what they were called? Can't remember, and I don't have my book on me). Definitely falls into the "prophecy only happens because we're told that it happens, and thus we make it happen" school of thought. That said, I'm not that sure about it, since this didn't seem to be one of the themes of Watchmen, and kind of stands out. Something interesting to think about, for sure.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Actually, it's from the poem.

Really. I'm a big fan of the Shelleys.

Also, I second Squirrel Girl.

Was that the "I am Ozymandias, king of kings" poem about the statue in the desert?

Or I could just check Wikipedia instead of half remembering something my grandfather told me.

[Solo]

Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.

[Logos7]

no a kick in the psycological challenge i would forward

doctor dysteny

squiral girl ,and maybe the hulk

I'm still looking forward to the hulk punching his way threw dimensions

Logos

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well yes, most people will have heard of Ozymandias from the Shelley poem first. I'm positive that's where Alan Moore got the name. Clearly, though, Moore's Ozymandias never read it, or he might have been a little less confident.

[NerfTW]

I thought he didn't know who it was because Rorschach wasn't wearing his mask when he died, and Manhatten didn't know his true identity.

[Hushdawg]

Solar could do it. He is capable of using all different forms of radiation, he could form himself into a blade of various types of radiation and envelop Manhatten in the bands.

I always liked the pre-Valient Solar, he was a lot more powerful and a lot more human.

[Rare Pink Leech]

Well yes, most people will have heard of Ozymandias from the Shelley poem first. I'm positive that's where Alan Moore got the name. Clearly, though, Moore's Ozymandias never read it, or he might have been a little less confident.

Well, Veidt (Ozymandias in Watchmen) adopted the name because it is the Greek version of Ramses, an Egyptian pharoah he idolized. I also doubt he never read the poem, considering his high level of education.

Moore definitely took inspiration from the poem, since a few of its lines is the closing quotation of one of the chapters (chapter 10 or 11, maybe; one of the final chapters, at any rate).

[....]

Spoiler much there?

The comic is 20+ years old...

Hey, did you know that at the end of War of the Worlds, all the martians are killed by germs!?

[Artega]

ZOMG you've ruined the book for me. =(

I hope HG Wells comes out of the grave, breaks into your house, and haunts you while preaching the benefits of socialism. :smallwink:

The main problem with Dr. Manhattan is the fact that his opinion of everything has become completely absurd as a result of his relative omnipotence. He knows what will happen in the end, and possibly makes himself out as alone in the universe so he's just floating around, "searching" for something to devote himself to.

If I had to put money on it, I'd probably put it on Albert Camus. He would, at the very least, get the good doctor to agree with his beliefs and -possibly- end the fight.

[Khantalas]

The comic is 20+ years old...

Hey, did you know that at the end of War of the Worlds, all the martians are killed by germs!?

That of course assumes that everyone in the world has access to the latest comic books. Which is not true. For example, I only got to read V for Vendetta a month ago. And still haven't read Watchmen.

Then again, this is a discussion about the power level of a character who existed in one book. One should expect examples from the book to be given.

[NerfTW]

Indeed. It's not an ongoing series, it's a graphic novel that takes a few hours to read. It's like complaining about spoilers in a discussion of Empire Strikes Back. If you haven't seen it, don't read a discussion about it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

no-one short of a cosmic entity or a reality-warper.

[StudlyDuck]

Cliche, I know, but Batman springs to mind. Or any strategy intensive character, really. Doctor Doom, Mister Fantastic, Captain America, and so on. Apathy is a poor counter to no-win scenarios.

[Tirian]

Indeed. It's not an ongoing series, it's a graphic novel that takes a few hours to read. It's like complaining about spoilers in a discussion of Empire Strikes Back. If you haven't seen it, don't read a discussion about it.

But it's esoteric. People nowadays only hear about it from discussions about it, and if you give away the ending in the middle of those discussions, then the enjoyment factor drops.

[Yuki Akuma]

Fully-powered godlike Scarlet Witch could probably take him by removing his powers.

nthing Squirrel Girl. Her plot armour is unbeatable.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Ah, I'll keep the references vague to keep everyone happy.

Arguably, the villain of Watchmen succeeded, as much as he did, on the strength of personal conviction and planning, which are Batman's two greatest strengths. Hell, add in "wealth", and they're pretty much equivalent, plus or minus a couple dozen IQ points. He did, in fact, win when Doctor Manhattan might have opposed him, but it's made explicit that he couldn't neutralize Manhattan entirely.

Come to think of it, that may have been the most poorly-thought-out deathtrap ever.

Anyway, the moral of the story is, the only way someone short of a cosmic entity, including the villain of Watchmen and Batman, could beat Manhattan, is by convincing him not to fight, or to leave. Huh. Apparently, Moore accidentally threw in a WarGames allusion when he was writing Watchmen.

[Tirian]

Come to think of it, that may have been the most poorly-thought-out deathtrap ever.

It really was. Twice in the final conflict, the villain said "Heh, I wasn't sure that would really work," which makes it pretty clear to me that his heart wasn't really in it.

I sort of think that the villain's plot could be divided into two phases: the "kill millions of people" plan and the "eliminate the heroes" plan. And the first was good and the second was so inept that it lead the heroes to him. If anything, the first phase of the plot against Jon was even more outrageous.

I mean, really. The U.S. military is going to go into crisis lockdown mode because of an "expose" in a political fringe tabloid newspaper? If there are two entities that know that exposure to Jon is not a cancer risk, it is the two entities that have been studying him for the past twenty-five years, namely the military and Jon himself. There should have been a general at the base waiting for Jon saying "We both know that's stupid, and we'll figure out who is behind the claims. Meanwhile, why not bury yourself in the search for subatomic particles for the next few months?" and global destabilization is averted.

[alanajoli]

Regarding spoilerage: While I hadn't read Watchmen until a few weeks ago, I wouldn't have known who Doctor Manhattan was (and therefore wouldn't hav read far enough into the thread to get a spoiler) without having read it. I'm not everyone, though, and the recent announcements about the film have sort of raised interest to those folks who have been meaning to read it for years. (Speaking of the film--ugh, what a bad idea. The book utilizes the comics format so brilliantly that I just don't see a good film version as possible. We'll see, I guess.)

As far as beating is concerned... I kind of think that a person has to engage in conflict in order to be beaten. Doc Manhattan seems to have sort of moved into a place where he's in full conflict avoidance mode--in part, because he experiences time so incredibly differently. ("How does it end?" "You're crying." "So I don't convince you? Why are we even talking?" I'm really curious why he answers the way he does when he's apparently utterly misleading her. Perhaps he honestly doesn't know either.)

I think the person most likely to actually defeat Doc Manhattan is the doctor himself.

[Tallis]

Alan Moore.

[Invisible Queen]

If we're going to talk about plot holes, how about the concept of "superheroes" in the book? Somehow, a handful of people who beat up criminals dressed in colorful costumes cause the police to go on strike. That's fairly ridiculous. Even worse is the entire USA going into riot mode and forcing vigilantes to be outlawed - which they should have been all along, which they shouldn't have cared about if they dressed up in costumes to fight crime in the first place.

And worst of all is The Comedian's status as an "extranormal operative" in the US military. Because he has a devastating uppercut and a well-known costume they place him in the same category as their one-man weapon of tectonic scale destruction? Let's face it, the only strategic advantage Comedian gives them is placing him in the enemy's crosshairs and hope his reputation makes them scared. He's not superhuman. Why does he and his friends make mainstream comics shift from superheroes to pirates?

[....]

The Comedian was probably almost as close to superhuman as possible. He wasn't when Ve-...uh, THE BADGUY killed him because he'd been a drunken bum for a few years while THE BADGUY was still doing his zen training thing.

But when he was fighting in 'Nam and killing people fort Nixon, he was at least at Punisher level fighting skills and weapon usage, he also had no concience, which the Pentagon liked a lot.

[Invisible Queen]

Sure, the heroes are in peak human condition, but still human. They're not flying or anything. Compare to real life Shaolin monks who do unthinkable things with spears and cars on television. They're the closest we have to superheroes, they can do things normal people can't, but nobody cares.

There's also more or less crazy people actually running around in costumes and fighting crime, but nobody cares even though they're all over the Internet. So why do people care in Watchmen?

[Nerd-o-rama]

That fell under willing suspension of disbelief, for me. "It's part of the premise, accept it". Plus, all of the supers had something that set them apart from humanity, made them more than, say, the News-Stand Guy. Mostly, it was psychoses of one type or another, but the fact is that they were able to push themselves well beyond the limits of humanity pretty much on lunacy and willpower. The Chapter XI closing prose hints at this, with the excerpt from Veidt's self-help manual stressing the importance of willpower and devotion to self-improvement. In his mind, at least, everyone could be "super." And unlike Syndrome's echoing of this sentiment in The Incredibles, Veidt meant that with utter sincerity. Alan Moore, on the other hand, probably didn't.

Plus, Veidt caught a bullet, and don't get me started on how many times Rorschach should have died. C'mon, that's got to count for something.

[SilverClawShift]

Mostly, it was psychoses of one type or another, but the fact is that they were able to push themselves well beyond the limits of humanity pretty much on lunacy and willpower.

That's what I took away from it. They weren't sepcial because they could fly or shoot lasers from their hands or jump through brick walls. They were special because they were willing to GO FOR it where other people would have stumbled. That's just crazy enough to work applied to every one of them, to one degree or another, and their success stemmed from it. They came completely out of left field, wearing costumes, jumping from rooftop to rooftop, refusing to look down because they'de remember that they ARE human and that the fall WOULD kill them.

Rorschach is the best example of that. everything he did was 'just crazy enough to work'. He was so mentally dettached from himself that, no matter where he was, he'd allready analized his surroundings and considered a dozen ways to kill everyone nearby, including his friends just in case. It wasn't that he was super-humanly strong or quick (though he was obviously up there in the high-end in terms of speed), it was just that he was thinking in ways that no one around him was....maybe thinking in ways they weren't willing to, even the most ruthless of them.
That's why Rorshach was a super hero. A lot of cunning, and a willingness to jump out of windows and light fires, and he's no longer just another guy on the street.

I think that point's driven home by the 'final showdown' as it were. Instead of being a cold engine of destruction, Rorshach is actually convinced there's not much he can really do, except rush, swing, and pray.

[SilverClawShift]

Plus, Veidt caught a bullet

Another thing that drives the point home. "Didn't really know if that would work".

He knew that he was about as fast and strong as a human being can realistically get, but he still wasn't SURE he could catch a bullet in his hand. But the willingness to TRY (and the insanity needed to think that way) made him actually move to do it, isntead of just standing there and dying like a normal person would.

[Elliot Kane]

Don't forget that Dr Manhattan acts like he's surprised at some points because that's the internal script he's reading off in his head, not because he's truly surprised. With all Veidt's plans, it's totally possible that Manhattan knew the ending to its absolute conclusions anyway.

I'd say even a reality warper would have trouble because any warping they did would be a part of what Dr Manhattan knows they will do anyway. His powers aren't just 'Molecule Man' - he has total knowledge of the future. Or he's the slave of the future, if you prefer.

He has ultimate power, but no freedom.