Buff and Trip Control Bard

[shellshock369]

Hello I'm starting off a 3.5 character, my first playing this edition
Thematically he fights dancing around the battlefield, buffing his allies while disrupting the enemy line

We can use, the PH, UA, and all the complete books, planning to end at about lv 16

I have two builds I would like to choose from (though I'm open to opinions and changes), both are human

Build 1

Bard - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise
Fighter - Improved Trip
Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes
Rogue - Deft Opportunist (Using Martial Rogue)
Rogue
Rogue - Power Attack, Weapon Focus
Warchanter
Warchanter
Warchanter - Skill Focus (Perform)
Warchanter
Seeker of Songs
Then all War Chanter

Build 2

Bard - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Combat Expertise
Barbarian
Barbarian - Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip
Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse
Fighter - Weapon Focus
Warchanter - Power Attack
Warchanter
Warchanter
Warchanter - Skill Focus (Perform Sing)
Warchanter
Seeker of Songs
Then all War Chanter

the builds accomplish very similar things
Build 1 sets me back one level but provides Deft Opportunist, Evasion, Spell Sense, and alot more skill
Build 2 means I get War Chanter at lv 6 and gives me Pounce and Whirling Death from Barbarian

Which is worth, is there a more optimal way to do this?

[A.A.King]

First Some Questions: At what level do you start and do you know your ability scores?

Secondly, if you are going to be a tripper, don't take a level in Swashbuckler. The difference between your DEX and STR will make Weapon Finesse a +1 or +2 at best; and that is before you start buffing your Strength Score to increase your trip abilities. You probably want to replace with another level Fighter for a bonus feat of your choice or something else entirely

Thirdly: Martial Rogue replaces your Sneak Attack with Fighter Bonus Feats as a Fighter meaning you get one at 1, 2, 4 etc rather rhan 1, 3. Because of this you'll want an even number of Martial Rogue levels.

Finally: you say you want to buff but you never raise your Inspire Courage beyond a +1. Am I right in assuming your priority lies at the Tripping Aspect?

[shellshock369]

First Some Questions: At what level do you start and do you know your ability scores?

Secondly, if you are going to be a tripper, don't take a level in Swashbuckler. The difference between your DEX and STR will make Weapon Finesse a +1 or +2 at best; and that is before you start buffing your Strength Score to increase your trip abilities. You probably want to replace with another level Fighter for a bonus feat of your choice or something else entirely

Thirdly: Martial Rogue replaces your Sneak Attack with Fighter Bonus Feats as a Fighter meaning you get one at 1, 2, 4 etc rather rhan 1, 3. Because of this you'll want an even number of Martial Rogue levels.

Finally: you say you want to buff but you never raise your Inspire Courage beyond a +1. Am I right in assuming your priority lies at the Tripping Aspect?

Thanks for the reply

We start at level 2, ability score 25
Currently planning with the following stat spread
Str 14, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 10

I was planning on getting the 16th dex on level 4, with weapon finesse at +1 over Str, so your saying this is not worth?

Hm I see, so martial rogue feats are at level 1 and 2, thanks for that

I wanted most of the actual buffing to come from War Chanter, Inspire courage +2 is really deep into bard so prioritized trip over that, or is there another method I missed

[John Longarrow]

Trip, in general, only is useful if you have a higher Str and are the same size (or larger) than your opponent. Most often it can be problematic since, if you fail, they can try to trip you back.

You will want some way of being enlarged to get this to work. The bonus to STR and from size will make this useful. If not, you'll continue to run into encounters where your only 50/50 (at best) at tripping things unless all of your adventures take place in human sized populations.

[Troacctid]

You need to have a high Strength in order to trip effectively. +2 is not going to do it; even with another +4 from Improved Trip, you will be lucky to get a 50/50 success rate against most enemies, which is not really adequate. What are you doing to improve your Strength check modifier?

[shellshock369]

I was planning on eventually picking up Living Chain and Armband of Might (+2 each) if that did not wind up being enough I would eventually pick up a level of Exotic Weapon Master and get the +2 trip bonus. I am told this is a heavily humanoid based campaign (Urban setting). Am I being optimistic here?

[John Longarrow]

From what I've seen in game, trip builds normally only work really well if they can get lots of attacks and are fighting relatively weak opponents. At low levels you will be pretty effective. As levels go up, you either start running into enemies that are not worth tripping or that are too strong to be tripped.

If the campaign is city-centric you may be viable at higher levels. This depends on how much the DM wants to use the surrounding area to shape the fights though. If you are holding a hallway against equal opponents it can be really useful. If the opponents can summon big stuff you will probably get stomped though.

Trip builds are normally built on high HP / front line combatants. This is because they need to be able to hit their target which puts them in harms way. Starting with bard puts you at a disadvantage for HP and BAB VS starting with barbarian.

If you build as
Barbarian -1 (Combat Expertise, Bonus Imp Trip)
Fighter -1 (FB Exotic Spike Chain)
Fighter -2 (FB Combat Reflexes)

you should be able to deal with low level mooks. Down side is most of them would be dropped if you hit them anyhow.

[shellshock369]

So I was planning on using my self as the road block for back liners and as a stumbling tool for squishy melee (rogues and the like)
Later on I would sing to buff the party with inspire recklessness and toughness, and deal most of my damage with a high a number AoO power attacks

Would it be a better idea to go full damage or maybe full tank?
Perhaps a dervish build?

[Troacctid]

One thing you could do would be to go Sublime Chord, which gives you access to polymorph spells. You can then transform yourself into something like a dire wolf or whatever (I don't know what the best forms are off the top of my head), which would give you much more effectiveness as far as tripping and grappling and otherwise controlling your enemies' movement. You would also have a greater ability to buff and protect your allies via high-level buff/support spells. (For example, instead of Singing Shout, you could cast mass bull's strength, which does the same thing, but has a much longer duration and could potentially last through multiple combats.)

[shellshock369]

Alright, so if trip build isn't recommended, how do think I should capture dancing bard with only the books I listed above?

[shellshock369]

Perhaps something like this

Str 13, Dex 15, Con 12, int 14, Wis 8, Cha 10

1- Bard - 0 - Combat Expertise, Dodge - Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Songs
2- Swashbuckler - 1 - Weapon Finesse
3 - Swashbuckler - 2 - Weapon Focus - Grace 1
4 - Swashbuckler - 3 - Insightful Strike
5 - Fighter - 4 - Mobility
6 - War Chanter - 5 - Power Attack - War Chanter Music, Inspire Toughness
7 - Dervish - 6 - Dervish Dance 1/day, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades
8 - War Chanter - 7
9 - War Chanter - 8 - Leap Attack - Inspire Recklessness
10 - Dervish - 9 - Fast Movement +5
11 - Dervish -10 - Spring Attack, Dervish Dance 2/day
12 - War Chanter - 11 -
13 - War Chanter - 12 - Combine Song
14 - War Chanter - 13
15 - War Chanter - 14 - Inspire Awe
16 - War Chanter - 15 - Singing Shout

I kind of wish I can sneak in a lv of barb for Whirling Frenzy and Pounce

[John Longarrow]

Bard 4 can grab you Alter Self. Depending on race this can open up a LOT of tricks that will help with "Trip build". If you are allowed to play a Neraphim from Planar Handbook this opens up some really cool 4hd or less outsiders. 5th level in Bard would get you one of my favorites for a trip build, Dwarf Ancestor. Massive Natural Armor and large size.

For less cheese you can grab Bariaur (Book of Exalted Deeds) for large quadroped.

[stanprollyright]

Perhaps something like this

Str 13, Dex 15, Con 12, int 14, Wis 8, Cha 10

1- Bard - 0 - Combat Expertise, Dodge - Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Songs
2- Swashbuckler - 1 - Weapon Finesse
3 - Swashbuckler - 2 - Weapon Focus - Grace 1
4 - Swashbuckler - 3 - Insightful Strike
5 - Fighter - 4 - Mobility
6 - War Chanter - 5 - Power Attack - War Chanter Music, Inspire Toughness
7 - Dervish - 6 - Dervish Dance 1/day, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades
8 - War Chanter - 7
9 - War Chanter - 8 - Leap Attack - Inspire Recklessness
10 - Dervish - 9 - Fast Movement +5
11 - Dervish -10 - Spring Attack, Dervish Dance 2/day
12 - War Chanter - 11 -
13 - War Chanter - 12 - Combine Song
14 - War Chanter - 13
15 - War Chanter - 14 - Inspire Awe
16 - War Chanter - 15 - Singing Shout

I kind of wish I can sneak in a lv of barb for Whirling Frenzy and Pounce

I say drop Dervish and Swashbuckler, switch Dex and Str, and take at least 2 levels of Barbarian (wolf totem) and another level of Fighter. Then Seeker of the Song or something instead of Dervish.

[shellshock369]

I say drop Dervish and Swashbuckler, switch Dex and Str, and take at least 2 levels of Barbarian (wolf totem) and another level of Fighter. Then Seeker of the Song or something instead of Dervish.

Hm what if I drop the fighter, add 1 Barb (for pounce and rage), drop Dervish, use Spiked chain for both finesse and power attack with insightful strike?

I might pick up seeker